Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

[Manish_P]

Two birds in the air.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15296 ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> Handsome Twosome #LCH.

[Rakesh]

Beautiful shot. Wow.

[Khalsa]

Some amazing news coming of an Indian LCH unit stood up near HAL at almost 50% or 70% strength via various twitter sources.

added later: here you go
https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 7471520769

[Prem Kumar]

Swarajya reports that the IA has raised its first LCH squadron in June, which will be moved to LAC next year.

What does "raising a squadron" mean? Are all helicopters (I believe its 10 to a squadron) inducted? Or is it more of a ceremonial function where the squadron is setup?

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/lch-ind ... -next-year

[Rakesh]

Swarajya reports that the IA has raised its first LCH squadron in June, which will be moved to LAC next year.

What does "raising a squadron" mean? Are all helicopters (I believe its 10 to a squadron) inducted? Or is it more of a ceremonial function where the squadron is setup?

Raising a squadron is largely a ceremonial function. It is more to do with the fact that the unit has been established. Depending on the platform, either all are inducted, a large number is inducted or just a few examples are inducted. Each platform is unique (in terms of delivery), so there is no hard and fast rule as to how many are available on raising day.

[Bala Vignesh]

Raising a squadron is largely a ceremonial function. It is more to do with the fact that the unit has been established. Depending on the platform, either all are inducted, a large number is inducted or just a few examples are inducted. Each platform is unique (in terms of delivery), so there is no hard and fast rule as to how many are available on raising day.

Admiral Saab,.

The receiving unit is usually established about a year to half a year before the first deliveries take place. The unit is then responsible for all the activities from signing off on deliveries and then working up the platform and finally induction of the platform.

Iirc, the work on reactivating no45 squadron began as early as 2011, before the squadron became operational in 2016.

[KSingh]

Swarajya reports that the IA has raised its first LCH squadron in June, which will be moved to LAC next year.

What does "raising a squadron" mean? Are all helicopters (I believe its 10 to a squadron) inducted? Or is it more of a ceremonial function where the squadron is setup?

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/lch-ind ... -next-year

According to this the IA is already going back on their assurances for LCH orders (as IAF has done with LCA MK.2), 114 they said now number is already being cut to 70, likely going to slip more as Apaches start to eat up CAPEX


https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 623822.ece

[Rakesh]

Admiral Saab,.

The receiving unit is usually established about a year to half a year before the first deliveries take place. The unit is then responsible for all the activities from signing off on deliveries and then working up the platform and finally induction of the platform.

Iirc, the work on reactivating no45 squadron began as early as 2011, before the squadron became operational in 2016.

Bala-ji, that is true. I was referring to the squadron raising event. The armed forces being steeped in traditions and customs, have such ceremonies. A ceremonial raising event does not necessarily translate into an active operational squadron with her full complement of aircraft.

When No 20 Squadron was raised at Lohegaon...she had a sizeable - if not all - quantity of Rambhas present. Yet when No 17 Squadron was raised at Ambala, not a single Rafale was present. The reverse was true when No 101 Squadron was raised at Hasimara. It depends from one platform to the next. Largely ties into deliveries and how much time and opportunity the squadron has had to work with the platform being inducted.

[Anujan]

LCH in Green



from IN twitter account

@IN_Eastern Naval Command
@INEasternNaval1
The CinC was briefed on the Naval LCA programme & progress made on the design & development of Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter #TEDBF at ADA, the indigenous helicopter design development, production & repair/ overhaul activities being undertaken by HAL (2/3)
#AtmaNirbharBharat

https://twitter.com/INEasternNaval1/sta ... 7791275008

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/154 ... NcGrFIeBtg ---> Bulk orders for the Light Combat Helicopter are still two years away. Perhaps some 150 units may be given the go ahead over and above the 15 LSP units that have either already been produced or are under execution.

[basant]

150 units, Admiral.

[Pratyush]

Indeed

[Rakesh]

basant

[KSingh]

150 units, Admiral.

I’ll believe it when I see it. These paper commitments from Indian armed forces are worth less than nothing.

[Atmavik]

150 units, Admiral.

are those 150 units of Mithai..

[basant]

are those 150 units of Mithai..

I am unable to find unit for units.

[A Deshmukh]

are those 150 units of Mithai..

I am unable to find unit for units.

normally unit is kg in standards units. but when it comes to admiralty it means tons.

[basant]

^^^

[Rakesh]

That is true Deshmukh-ji

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/raflanker/status/15 ... RS3b4hoEgQ ---> The order for 15 LCH was given on 30 March 2022. But the fun part is that HAL pre produced the aircraft, so now they will deliver them before time. Ab Dekhate Hain, how many will appreciate this fact

[ramana]

.....
According to this the IA is already going back on their assurances for LCH orders (as IAF has done with LCA MK.2), 114 they said now number is already being cut to 70, likely going to slip more as Apaches start to eat up CAPEX


https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 623822.ece

Let us not go into that dhoti shiver mode.
Apaches have a different use and are needed.*
The LCH will be the larger number.
The small deployment along LAC has done a lot to work out tactics etc by Army.
Frees up IAF for other roles.

[nachiket]

What I fail to understand is the inexplicable delay in integrating and testing an ATGM (any ATGM) on the LCH. ATGM's are the bread and butter of any modern Attack Helicopter. I do not know if this can be blamed on HAL or the IAF or both but someone dropped the ball on this. This is almost as bad as Scorpenes being commissioned without new torpedoes though in that case the IN at least inducted the submarines.

[bala]

I am noticing a trend in services decisions. The most obvious thing, at least from onlookers like moi, are glaringly omitted or feigned ignorance. Everyone is left scratching their heads, and looking at each other and asking duh, what happened. The list is endless. We have the entire gamut from small arms, helos, tanks, guns, artillery, aircrafts, submarines, aircraft carriers, etc. The most ostensible thing is overlooked deliberately. We all know the consequence of not looking for the most obvious but somehow everyone in decision making are behaving like proverbial ostrich in the sand, oblivious of the rest of us.

[Prem Kumar]

There seems to be some timidity in the way we think - that's the pattern I see. We see it in Tapas (there is no armed version). LCH without ATGM.

There is no "Lets induct a large number of these platforms, bristling with teeth" type mentality. And its not funding related. It seems more like a mental block.

We seem content to barely hold our own against adversaries. There is some resistance to having overmatch, even against Pakis. This, of course, works great for Pakis, their 3.5 masters etc, but isn't befitting our stature & aspirations.

[JTull]

Instead of timidity, I think armed forces are betting the house on another border skirmish so they can make their dalal friends happy with all the emergency purchases.

[Pratyush]

That seems to be a reasonable assumption to make. Because nothing else is making any sense at least from the service POV.

PS: it's quite amazing to see the transformation of the BRF of the last few years. From certain line's of thought being totally banned from discussion. To such points being discussed very openly.

[kit]

Instead of timidity, I think armed forces are betting the house on another border skirmish so they can make their dalal friends happy with all the emergency purchases.

for sure yes. The call for Apache's is going up in tempo!! ., i do hope no Indian military service orders any American combat aircraft or helicopters., having seen the reach of their mil industrial complex they will be energised to promote conflict in the neighbourhood and bleed out national wealth.

Read ., new arms sales to Pakistan., so in many ways a paradoxical risk to India., the more money goes to America the more they promote conflict with Pakistan or China as the case may be. India should do better without their arms baggage

[S_Madhukar]

Completely agree with Prem Kumar ji, how can we be so timid when the country is marching ahead?!

<Rant alert>

Looks like all these multilateral exercises and seminars is compromising the brass . From Natasha to Crystal to Tamer cultivation is happening. After this 'onsite' experience' the chaps are more loyal to maal than desh. They may think NRIs are doing it why can't we. I say fine be loyal to GE-414 but then also be loyal to Tejas. Nope we want the full pkg! Total balidaan! Instead I was hoping they learn something about ambition, initiative and imagination.

I want to know is the brass supposed to commit to FIXED WHOLE numbers of anything at all at any time ?
Like I have 30 sq. made of 18 aircraft each.... no may be 10 on monday, 12 on friday, 20 in 2030?
If I do a fleet review tomorrow, can I say I have 0.5 sub in the dock and 0.5 underwater? 0.8 in the sea because the 0.2 torpedoes are not ordered yet.
I have 10K soldiers, 1K are on holiday, 8K are here, 1K I don't know must be having chai somewhere? - I am sure that does not happen in IA.
I have 10K guns, 8K are ready but tires are to be ordered, 2K are disassembled waiting screws.

I also don't understand what happens at the end of exercises. So IAF says well we are going to have MRFA anyway so these failures are not important, we missed by 100m, no worries we are getting maal in 10 years time. Or is it all paper games, online Combat sim on steroids ?

Are there any management KPIs with timeframes? Continuous improvement(not imports!)?

I hope PMO can say you want Apache. OK. What is your foolproof plan of getting A, B, C done and when?

<Rant over(controlling myself!)>

[Hari Nair]

Notwithstanding all the speculation on social media (and BRF) there have only been 2 quasi-official statements re. the LCH stalemate that I can recall over the last few years (I paraphrase here):

1. ACM Bhaduria commented about LCH being technically ready, but that "Services issues and work needed to be completed"
2. HAL CTP HVThakur commented on Twitter that "... last DPP milestone(s? can't recall) left"

The actual flying articles have been busy and have been places. All this points to the issue being a commercial one, not a technical one. My speculation is that the LCH is different and new enough, and HAL leadership justifiably feeling that since they now have delivered a true first in the country - a true product platform with multiple variants - that they can throw that weight around and blow past any past commitments, has resulted in expected PBL contracts/pricing negotiations "cold war" between HAL and MOD .... and hence the slow-down.

From that POV, and notwithstanding the continuous Lutyens-bridge Analytica campaign being waged against the Services on BRF, I will submit that it does not matter when an article is produced...the acquisition clock starts when an official and full quote is delivered to the buyer. When did that happen? Perhaps that's the question that ought to be asked in Parliament, or by a journalist... where are we on the official milestone process? Whose court was the tennis ball last seen?

If the reality was anywhere close to what the loudest on BRF believe, there would have been a 1,000 leaks out of Bangalore like that in the past. That quiet in itself speaks volumes.

HAL did not "throw weight around", in the LCH project. HAL, in this case took the proactive and bold decision to commence production of the LSPs at the tail-end of the test programme of the four LCH prototypes. This decision was taken prior to the signing of the contract, which indicated the confidence HAL has in this project. This has turned out to be a good thing as the LSPs are ready for delivery, without further consequent delays.

Yes HAL is very justifiably proud of the LCH - and why on earth should they not be? Let me assure you that this helicopter's performance has been quietly appreciated by the Services, based largely on the feedback of their own Test Pilots, who flew and participated in the Test Programme.

Aircraft are not just automatically 'developed' - its not an armchair exercise. There is a lot of sweat and toil to fine-tune the aircraft for what it is intended to to - in this case to operate efficiently and effectively in the extreme high altitudes of Ladakh and Sikkim sectors. I know for a fact just how the LCH handles and flies, having had flown the prototypes in Ladakh during the various test flights. Having also flown Russian helicopters in the very same sector in operational roles in the IAF, I am well aware (as do the IAF and Army test pilots) of the vast performance gap that exists- heck the LCH even given the ALH a run for its money in certain aspects, at high altitude. Even the pilots of the supporting / chase Russian helicopters that participated in such test flights with the LCH became aware of the vast performance and handling gap.

Let me assure you all milestones have been completed and the LCH LSPs that are being delivered are very much fully operational. No commitments were 'blown past', as you speculate.

The last couple of years delay in the LCH contract was in part due to:
a) The clearance from CCS - which has its own modalities and does take some time.
b) PMO's office queries and observations that were required to be cleared, even after all the other clearances were complied.
All this is not unusual and is just routine. We are talking about very large sums of money the nation needs to commit to this project.

I suspect the some of the delay was perhaps due to constraints in the respective Service's Capital budgets with priorities for other ongoing acquisitions to be completed, etc.

Leaks in the past - I presume you are alluding to the HTT-40 programme, which was being opposed vehemently by a then serving Chief (highly unusual in itself). I wonder if you are aware that the Pilatus trainer aircraft contract that the IAF had originally signed, which also the then Chief had ardently supported, did not even include in-country maintenance, overhaul and repair? We essentially enhanced the Swiss's standards-of-living by going back to them for all, other than 1st and 2nd line maintenance! That's what an African or banana republic's armed forces usually do. Not to speak of increasing our dependance on foreigners for even third and fourth line maintenance!

There is also the little known fact that a very good initiative by HAL to improve and introduce a proven trainer on a fast-track basis (prior to even the HTT-40) was torpedoed by the same aforementioned person. That project, had it been allowed to go through, would have us building a trainer in large numbers today (with all IPRs), with full in-house support for all levels of maintenance, without having had to go through the expensive and time-consuming process of development and flight testing of prototypes.

[fanne]

Hari Nair sir, thanks for all the nuggets. Please feel free to post more of these (within the gambit of OSA). I am very sure, that whatever you have said is going viral.
I have a few questions
1. Can HAL on its own test any ATGM on LCH or it has to get some special permission (say from Army/mod/iaf)?
2. Some ATGMs have been tested from ALH and MI-17, how fast can it be integrated into LCH?
3. The rumor that army is not interested much in LCH because Rudra can do the same at far cheaper cost? True? Some tradeoff are obvious, Rudra does not have enough space left for transport once you load it for attack roles. Plus it looks like performance-wise, it is a notch over Rudra.
4. In the world of Manpads etc., how effective is it in the Himalayas? deserts?
5. Compared to Apaches, where it is better (in performance)

[Prem Kumar]

Great post, Hari Nair Ji! Thanks for the insights!

Is there any truth to the claim in The Hindu that HAL will take 2 more years to complete the RFQ process for the full production order for LCH? Isn't such a huge time-window unnatural, especially considering past delays + the fact that the birds have been tested like crazy and LSPs are being delivered as we speak?

[nachiket]

Hari Nair sir, good to see you here again and thanks for clearing up the misinformation. Would it possible to comment on the delay in integrating an ATGM on the LCH. I would guess the integration would be necessary before the IAF accepts the helicopter?

[Anujan]

Leaks in the past - I presume you are alluding to the HTT-40 programme, which was being opposed vehemently by a then serving Chief (highly unusual in itself). I wonder if you are aware that the Pilatus trainer aircraft contract that the IAF had originally signed, which also the then Chief had ardently supported, did not even include in-country maintenance, overhaul and repair?

I recall some of this saga covered in the press

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2013-07-30

IAF chief NAK Browne has argued in favour of procuring more Pilatus PC-7s.
The Indian Air Force's (IAF) new basic trainer has blown the dust off old institutional rifts, with Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne asking Defence Minister A.K. Antony to buy more Swiss Pilatus PC-7s rather than rely on the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)-manufactured HTT-40.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 068_1.html

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was indigenously developing 181 BTA for the IAF, dubbed the Hindustan Turbo Trainer–40 (HTT–40). On March 5, 2009, IAF laid down stringent performance benchmarks, dubbed Preliminary Air Staff Qualitative Requirements or PSQR.

These began getting diluted in September 2009, when the ministry of defence (MoD) permitted IAF to import 75 BTA through a global tender. Within days, the IAF issued a relaxed ASQR, in a document numbered ASQR 18/09. While the Pilatus PC-7 Mark II would not have met the earlier PSQR formulated for HAL, the new ASQR seem almost tailored for Pilatus.

‘zero-zero ejection seat’.
pressurised cockpit
good external vision from the instructor’s rear cockpit,
Glide ratio
in-flight simulation
increasing the take-off distance
reducing maximum speed

These were lowered in the October 2009 ASQR because the IAF was going for global procurement. Lower standards would bring in more vendors and generate competition.

I dont know whether to laugh or cry

[ks_sachin]

Great posts naraswami.
Good to see a different perspective.

[Pratyush]

I am always amused by either the services or some posters claiming that the credibility of the vendor was shot after one bad product.

In the western world i am aware of a defence manufacturers designing and building a failed product. Yet they go on to build a successful product in the second run.

But in India our services are so special that once a bad product is built. The vendor will never be given another chance. Or they will be reminded of a failed product from 50 years ago. As an excuse to deny them an opportunity to build something new.

This is stupid beyond belief.

[Pratyush]

So this is an issue with the organisational culture. Who is responsible for such culture?

What incentives existed for change in culture?

Unless you are able to look at such issues, i am afraid we are just having surface level discussions.

[Prem Kumar]

So, has the gripe-fest @ BRF brought back enqyoob-al-baghdadi from his cave complex?

[la.khan]

So, has the gripe-fest @ BRF brought back enqyoob-al-baghdadi from his cave complex?

No, I think enqyoob-al-baghdadi sent his subordinate, a yak herder from Ulan Bator, to straighten things out @ BRF

[Pratyush]

I don't think so. The language and syntax is too different.

[ks_sachin]

So who is Enqyoob and I have always wondered who is Ulan Bator..