Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 18:47

Light Combat Helicopter (LCH)

Thanks to BRF Members --> Group Captain S Hari Krishnan Nair (retd), Manish_Sharma and Sankum for their contributions.

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Design Specifications
• Crew: Two in Tandem Seating Configuration
• Length: 15.8 meters
• Wingspan: 4.6 meters
• Height: 4.7 meters
• Main Rotor Diameter: 13.2 meters
• Maximum Take Off Weight: 5,800 kg
• Maximum Payload Capacity: 1,500 kg
• Normal Payload Capacity: 700 kg
• Engine: 2 × HAL/Turbomeca Shakti-1H1 turboshaft each producing 1,032 kW (1,384 shp), but derated to 798 kW (1,070 shp)

Performance Specifications
• Maximum Speed: 269 km/h
• Never Exceed Speed: 330 km/h
• Range: 550 km with weapons
• Endurance: 3 hours, 10 minutes
• Service Ceiling: 6,500 meters
• Rate of Climb: 12 meters per second

Armament
• Guns: 20mm M621 cannon on Nexter THL-20 turret
• Hardpoints: Four with provisions to carry combinations of:
... ... ... ... ... ... ... Rockets ---> 70mm FZ or Thales rocket pods
... ... ... ... ... ... ... Missiles ---> Two-round Mistral-2 air-to-air missiles or four-round Helina (planned)
... ... ... ... ... ... ... Bombs ---> Cluster bombs, unguided bombs or grenade launchers

Avionics
• Elbit CoMPASS opto-electronic suite
• Missile approach warning system
• Saab radar and laser warning system
• Chaff and flare dispensers

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Acronyms
• TD: Technology Demonstrator

Construction Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• TD-1 ... ZP 4601 ... 29-Mar-2010 ... Wing Commander Unni Krishna Pillai (retd) and Group Captain S Hari Krishnan Nair (retd)
• TD-2 ... ZP 4602 ... 28-Jun-2011 ... Wing Commander Unni Krishna Pillai (retd) and Group Captain S Hari Krishnan Nair (retd)
• TD-3 ... ZP 4603 ... 12-Nov-2014 ... Wing Commander Unni Krishna Pillai (retd) and Group Captain S Hari Krishnan Nair (retd)
• TD-4 ... ZP 4604 ... 01-Dec-2015 ... Wing Commander Unni Krishna Pillai (retd) and Wing Commander Subhash Palakuzhiyil John (retd)

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Total Projected Requirement - 162

• Indian Army: 97
• Indian Air Force: 65

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Tarmak Talking with Team LCH: All set for the big game

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https://twitter.com/i_m_satwikk/status/ ... 71109?s=20 ----> LCH with Rocket Pods and Dhruvastra ATGM.

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg ---> HAL Light Combat Helicopter.

https://twitter.com/FighterPiloting/sta ... pxiyMr05Vg --->

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 26464?s=20 ---> LCH's Revolutionary to an EVOLUTIONARY design approach.

https://twitter.com/deb_highfly/status/ ... 55840?s=20 ---> First mock up.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 41728?s=20 ---> Here are the few sensors from the EW suite of HAL's LCH.

PS: Not sure about the placement of CFDs.

https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 32642?s=20 ---> And this is what LCHs are capable to fire...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 10 Aug 2020 19:01

HAL's Chief Test Pilot Wg. Cdr. Unni Pillai flew the TD-3 with co-pilot Gp. Capt. S.H.K. Nair.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 3.ece/amp/

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 10 Aug 2020 19:26

Rakesh, A correction The maximum external payload is 1500kg.
Normal weapons payload is 700kg.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 10 Aug 2020 19:35

The LCH is designed to meet a specific percentile of crashworthiness, as defined in Mil Standard .
Towards this:
- The landing gear oleos have a two-stage design. The first stage caters for normal operations. The second stage compression caters for the crash loads.
- The lower portion of the fuselage has a section that is designed to crush, to attenuate the crash loads, after the oleos have absorbed the initial impact and the fuselage contacts the surface.
- The seats for the Pilot and Weapon Systems Operator are crash-worthy. These seats are mounted on rails and stroke downwards to further reduce the acceleration. The seat loads are absorbed by its Variable Load Energy Absorbers. The idea being to finally reduce the 'g' load on the spine to below 14.
So, its essentially a three-stage approach - using the oleos, the crush portions and the seat for energy attenuation in the event of a crash with vertical velocities more than 2000 feet per minute.

- When up close, its very evident that the oleos and attachment points are beefy - they remind me in size, of those on the Mi-17: which is a 13 tonne helicopter!
- The testing of the LCH landing gear was done on a rig that was used to check out the Navy LCA's landing gear. However the rig had to be modified, since the LCH landing gear had to be dropped from a even higher height. The landing gear, with ballast representing the helicopter weight came down with a mighty crashing sound in the rig - it passed the test in a single go. My instinct tells me that its capable of taking more punishment and has a generous amount of over-design. Which is a good thing for an attack helicopter

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 10 Aug 2020 19:46

The tail rotor of the LCH is an engineering marvel - it weighs just about 14 kg and can be easily lifted by a single hand ! It comprises two composite flex-beams bolted in a cross shape. The flex-beams have the four tail rotor blades. There are no hinges(for flap or drag like a conventional helicopter) or greasing / lubricating points for maintenance. The tail rotor is designed as a 'stiff-in-plane' rotor.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 10 Aug 2020 19:58

The air conditioning is very effective - the best place to be on a blazing hot summer day in Jodhpur (with temperatures above 40 deg C) or during a bitterly cold winter day in a forward base in Ladakh (minus 28 C) - is the cockpit, with the engines started up.

We have even 'personalised' the air conditioning - through the flight tests, we located vents strategically that blows air on the nape of the neck of the Pilot & WSO and that location is surprisingly effective!

Long ferries are surprisingly fatigue-free, as a result of the very effective air conditioning, the ergonomic seats excellent auto-pilot and navigation systems. This despite the cockpit being an extremely tight fit - the side canopy panels are just about (or less than) four feet wide.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:03

Manish_Sharma wrote:HAL's Chief Test Pilot Wg. Cdr. Unni Pillai flew the TD-3 with co-pilot Gp. Capt. S.H.K. Nair.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 3.ece/amp/

Thank You. I have updated the first post and given you credit.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:04

sankum wrote:Rakesh, A correction The maximum external payload is 1500kg.
Normal weapons payload is 700kg.

Thank You. I have updated the first post and given you credit.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:05

Hari Nair wrote:The LCH is designed to meet a specific percentile of crashworthiness, as defined in Mil Standard....

Thank you Sir for these posts. Great info!

Is it possible Sir for you to summarize them in an article? I will add in the first post of this thread.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:26

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 05249?s=20 ---> A pretty sweet pic of ZF 4603. Picture from Aviation Wall. Fun fact first two prototypes of LCH have Tail numbers starting with ZP (4601/2) as opposed to ZF (4603/4) for the latter two and Mi-17V5s also have tail numbers starting with ZP.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Aug 2020 20:26

Manish_Sharma wrote:HAL's Chief Test Pilot Wg. Cdr. Unni Pillai flew the TD-3 with co-pilot ]Gp. Capt. S.H.K. Nair.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 3.ece/amp/

I wonder who this H.K Nair is, surely he is not the one who posted the last few posts on this thread.

P.S Great to have you here Sir.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 20:47

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 64512?s=20 ---> Great to see the IAF Vice Chief in Ladakh today scoping out the Indian Light Combat Helicopter (an Apache visible too in this @ANIphoto).

Our recent report on how first orders for the LCH are expected soon:- https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/06 ... opter.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 10 Aug 2020 21:38

This is GREAT news!!!

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 27555?s=20 ---> EXCLUSIVE: India's Light Combat Helicopter deployed with IAF in Ladakh on force projection mission for a week now, flying operational patrol missions with IAF pilots to forward areas.

EXCLUSIVE: Light Combat Helicopter Deployed With IAF In Ladakh
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/08 ... adakh.html
08 Aug 2020

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 10 Aug 2020 21:40

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1291751290733617153

VCAS Air Mshl Harjit Singh Arora visited forward air bases in the Ladakh sector today. He interacted with air warriors of the combat units currently operating in the sector and reviewed operational preparedness at IAF bases.

https://twitter.com/IAF_MCC/status/1291751293514522627

The VCAS urged all air warriors, NCs(E), DSC personnel & Civilian staff to continue discharging their duties with utmost sincerity & ensure a high state of combat readiness at all times. He also flew Chinook and Light Combat Helicopter during his visit.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 11 Aug 2020 10:31

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 41728?s=20 ---> Here are the few sensors from the EW suite of HAL's LCH.

PS: Not sure about the placement of CFDs.

Absolutely fake EW suite description in the photo showing with tail light shown as DIRCM

And the CFD, that is not the correct term, is shown firing upwards when attack helicopters face MANPAD threats from down below.

Neither Dhurv, Rudra nor LCH has any DIRCM.

LCH has not been fitted with any MAWS or LWR or CMDS

Only Rudra has the SAAB MAWS and LWR above the cockpit and CMDS under the India Roundel

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 32642?s=20 ---> And this is what LCHs are capable to fire...

The only weapons certified on the LUH are ATAM, FZ 70 mm rockets and 20mm Nexter gun. Rest all are speculation.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Aug 2020 12:27

https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/1293420947186171904

HAL produced two Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) have been deployed for operations at high altitude (Leh sector) at short notice to support IAF missions.

SajeevJino · Post by **SajeevJino** » 12 Aug 2020 12:46

tsarkar wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 41728?s=20 ---> Here are the few sensors from the EW suite of HAL's LCH.

PS: Not sure about the placement of CFDs.
Absolutely fake EW suite description in the photo showing with tail light shown as DIRCM

And the CFD, that is not the correct term, is shown firing upwards when attack helicopters face MANPAD threats from down below.

Neither Dhurv, Rudra nor LCH has any DIRCM.

LCH has not been fitted with any MAWS or LWR or CMDS

Only Rudra has the SAAB MAWS and LWR above the cockpit and CMDS under the India Roundel

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 32642?s=20 ---> And this is what LCHs are capable to fire...
The only weapons certified on the LUH are ATAM, FZ 70 mm rockets and 20mm Nexter gun. Rest all are speculation.

If nobody here can counter this arguement , why don't our mods can remove the Avionics section in the first post , except the Elbit FLIR

I was thinking thats the major reason why IAF/IA not ready to order those LCH , while whole BRF polishing the HAL but blaming the IAF not buying it

SajeevJino · Post by **SajeevJino** » 12 Aug 2020 13:10

tsarkar

I saw that Elisara PAWS on AH 64 has DIRCM, why don't HAL hesitate to buy them, as It already has Elbit FLIR , they don't have issue with the PAWS for integration, unlike the SAAB's IADS-2 on Rudra

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 12 Aug 2020 13:12

^^^ Are we sure the IAF is not ready to order the LCH? Also, are we sure the LCH has no EW suite or no CMDS? Finally, are we sure the picture of the LCH that has been commented on (locations of various sensors, etc) is representing the the LSP or production version? Are we sure that all HAL needs to do is pop across to the nearest vendor and just buy EW stuff and bolt them on?And finally, are we sure we should be discussing and laying out every minutiae of the program on an open forum?

rrao · Post by **rrao** » 12 Aug 2020 13:39

Hari Nair sir, while trying to convince some , We are baring LCA,LCH in minute details , which is a national security risk and renders the platforms useless against enemy strategies."Are we sure we should be discussing and laying out every minutiae of the program on an open forum? " Thanks for bringing this up. How much do we know about Z-10,Y20,J20 ,SU-57 or even JF-17?

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 12 Aug 2020 13:52

Rakesh the projected requirement by TP Unni in the video for
Indian Army 97 nos
IAF 65 nos
Total 162 nos.

Kindly add this info to the initial post.

anupamd · Post by **anupamd** » 12 Aug 2020 14:06

Hari Nair sir, Is LSP - 4 the final production version or both LSP -3 and LSP-4? As both of these LSPs are being mentioned as Army version or Air force version in multiple news.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 12 Aug 2020 16:29

Hari Nair wrote: _

Sir I am quoting you to ask you some questions.
The current engagement (RFP) of 15 LSP crafts.

Is that being negotiated and led with the Indian Air Force only ?
i.e the IAF are negotiating for 10 IAF and 5 Army birds on behalf the army ?

is so why is that. Why isn't the army negotiating independently of the IAF ?
Thank you

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Aug 2020 18:48

Hari Nair wrote:^^^ Are we sure the IAF is not ready to order the LCH? Also, are we sure the LCH has no EW suite or no CMDS? Finally, are we sure the picture of the LCH that has been commented on (locations of various sensors, etc) is representing the the LSP or production version? Are we sure that all HAL needs to do is pop across to the nearest vendor and just buy EW stuff and bolt them on?And finally, are we sure we should be discussing and laying out every minutiae of the program on an open forum?

Thank You Sir for bringing us all back to reality.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Aug 2020 18:51

sankum wrote:Rakesh the projected requirement by TP Unni in the video for
Indian Army 97 nos
IAF 65 nos
Total 162 nos.

Kindly add this info to the initial post.

Done Sankum-ji. Please take a look. Thank You!

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 12 Aug 2020 18:57

Khalsa wrote:...
some questions.
The current engagement (RFP) of 15 LSP crafts.

Is that being negotiated and led with the Indian Air Force only ?
i.e the IAF are negotiating for 10 IAF and 5 Army birds on behalf the army ?

is so why is that. Why isn't the army negotiating independently of the IAF ?...

The process of the PNC (Process Negotiations Committee) with HAL is a deadly serious exercise, unlike popular perceptions outside!
The IAF has a close working knowledge of HAL and the PNC is usually ruthless in its scrutiny, goes into the minutiae and the final price arrived is usually a fair one, to all parties.
Also, there is little point in repeating the time-consuming exercise for another Service, unless there are changes in configuration and scales. The order for 10+5 can be considered as a combined order, instead of piece-meal price negotiations for 10 and then for the remaining five.
Usually, one Service agrees for the other to take the lead in this process and having gotten this milestone over, the negotiated price can then be used for the next step - making & signing the contract.
Contracts are usually specific to each Service with slightly differing terms and conditions.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Aug 2020 19:01

Hari Nair wrote:The LCH is designed to meet a specific percentile of crashworthiness, as defined in Mil Standard.

Quick question Sir...

Were you and Wing Commander Unni Krishna Pillai Sir the test pilots for the *FIRST* flight of ZP 4602 and ZP 4604? Reason I am asking is because I need to add it on the first post. Thank You.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 12 Aug 2020 19:26

^^^Crew of ZP-4601, ZP-4602 & ZF-4603 is as you stated above.
Crew of ZF-4604 - Wg Cdr Pillai & Wg Cdr SP John

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 12 Aug 2020 20:08

Hari Nair wrote:
Khalsa wrote:...
some questions.
The current engagement (RFP) of 15 LSP crafts.

Is that being negotiated and led with the Indian Air Force only ?
i.e the IAF are negotiating for 10 IAF and 5 Army birds on behalf the army ?

is so why is that. Why isn't the army negotiating independently of the IAF ?...
The process of the PNC (Process Negotiations Committee) with HAL is a deadly serious exercise, unlike popular perceptions outside!
The IAF has a close working knowledge of HAL and the PNC is usually ruthless in its scrutiny, goes into the minutiae and the final price arrived is usually a fair one, to all parties.
Also, there is little point in repeating the time-consuming exercise for another Service, unless there are changes in configuration and scales. The order for 10+5 can be considered as a combined order, instead of piece-meal price negotiations for 10 and then for the remaining five.
Usually, one Service agrees for the other to take the lead in this process and having gotten this milestone over, the negotiated price can then be used for the next step - making & signing the contract.
Contracts are usually specific to each Service with slightly differing terms and conditions.

Does the price take into consideration the money spent on R&D (AFAIK it is completely paid for by HAL)? They will be needing money for their future products like unmanned rotorcraft, loyal wingman drone etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 12 Aug 2020 20:38

Hari Nair wrote:^^^Crew of ZP-4601, ZP-4602 & ZF-4603 is as you stated above.
Crew of ZF-4604 - Wg Cdr Pillai & Wg Cdr SP John

Thank you so much Sir. Greatly appreciated. I have updated the first post with due credit.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 12 Aug 2020 20:52

abhik wrote:..Does the price take into consideration the money spent on R&D (AFAIK it is completely paid for by HAL)? ...

Depends on the project. In the event the R&D has been covered by CCS Sanction through an advance, the PNC obviously is about the production only costs. Amortising the R&D element(s) (Non-Recurring Costs - NRC), if any across the production line, is obviously only if the development costs have not been paid up in full.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2020 22:24

Khalsa wrote:
Hari Nair wrote: _
Sir I am quoting you to ask you some questions.
The current engagement (RFP) of 15 LSP crafts.

Is that being negotiated and led with the Indian Air Force only ?
i.e the IAF are negotiating for 10 IAF and 5 Army birds on behalf the army ?

is so why is that. Why isn't the army negotiating independently of the IAF ?
Thank you

To add to Hari Nair's explanation, combining the order gives quantity benefits.
It was the old mentality of negotiating for onesie/twosies that drives up the price.
Glad the services are combining the orders to get better price.
And it does cost HAL more documentation and contract paperwork when the orders are on separate contract.
The Army birds can be a variant in the overall 15 LCH contract.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2020 22:25

Hari Nair wrote:
abhik wrote:..Does the price take into consideration the money spent on R&D (AFAIK it is completely paid for by HAL)? ...
Depends on the project. In the event the R&D has been covered by CCS Sanction through an advance, the PNC obviously is about the production only costs. Amortising the R&D element(s) (Non-Recurring Costs - NRC), if any across the production line, is obviously only if the development costs have not been paid up in full.

Great and equitable answer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Aug 2020 22:25

Hari Nair, Can the Hellfire be integrated on LCH/RUDRA if available?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Aug 2020 03:43

or why hellfire (which Americans may not agree to without signing off some 3/4 letter treaty or rescinding s-400 contract), we are already buying spike for ground based forces. Spike ER, ER2 and NLOS has more range than hellfire, is cheaper and it won the Indian competition against Hellfire!!
Israelis would gladly let us integrate with LCH (they don't have competitive product like Apache). In interim we should go for some limited buy of heli born rounds (at least for first 15 LCH, pre prod run). If/When the baloon goes up in Ladhakh it will be handy. That gives time for Helina/Sant to mature. We have 70,000 holding of ATGMs of all kind. Some 500-1000 Heli born Spike will not hurt but gives us very good options on Tibet front. Yes if Helina is matured and available why not, but it is not and Chinese are not planning to attack only after we have fixed our Helina problem.
The issue is how fast can we integrate it? We use Elbit compass anyways for target acquisition.

Mukhi · Post by **Mukhi** » 13 Aug 2020 05:19

I Sincerely hope the two birds being deployed right now will turn into another Pinaka like story. We deployed few of them during the Kargil times, Army Realized it’s potential, and decent number of orders followed, along with future roadmap of improvement and better versions.

Let’s hope we see the same with initial tow birds their, plus 13 (if the two are part if 15) or 15 additional planned and then more and more orders to fulfill the requirement for Army and Air Force.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 13 Aug 2020 09:47

ramana wrote:Hari Nair, Can the Hellfire be integrated on LCH/RUDRA if available?

Yes, it can be integrated, or for that matter the Spike.
But that does not mean its simply a 'plug-and-play' which seems to be a sort of an urban myth about Glass Cockpits!
Despite all this hoo-hah about MILBUS communication protocols making things so easy, there are usually some weapon-specific LRU(Line Replaceable Units) that need to be added, with specific additional communication lines between those units.

sajaym · Post by **sajaym** » 13 Aug 2020 10:09

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 32642?s=20 ---> And this is what LCHs are capable to fire...

tsarkar wrote: The only weapons certified on the LUH are ATAM, FZ 70 mm rockets and 20mm Nexter gun. Rest all are speculation.

@tsarkar,

Most of the stores in the above fig seem to belong to the aircraft already in IAF inventory (I can see Mig series, Mi-35, Jag/Mirage stores), so my assumption is that the LCH has already been qualified with all of the stores in this fig. Since HAL already has access to these stores and it's pilots/developers already have the data for these weapons. So it could be that all these can be carried on the LCH on an urgent basis if needed.

Which leads me to assume that if the LCH is based in the LEH airbase, it can technically carry most of the stores which might be kept there for use by the other IAF aircraft. Could I be right?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Aug 2020 10:44

Avionics
• Elbit CoMPASS opto-electronic suite
• Missile approach warning system
• Saab radar and laser warning system
• Chaff and flare dispensers

Hari Nair,

What does Elbit Compass do?

Thanks

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 13 Aug 2020 11:46

^^^

CoMPASS Rev III is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a Colour TV Daylight Camera, 3rd Generation Medium Wave IR (MWIR) sensor, Laser Target Designator and Range Finder (LTDRF), Short Wave IR (SWIR), internal GPS and automatic tracking capabilities, as well as command and control capabilities. It has a variety of interfaces like the mission computer, fire control, radar, GPS, data downlink and helmet-mounted tracking systems. It is suitable for long-range, day-and-night surveillance, target tracking, fire control applications and search and rescue.

CoMPASS Rev III is the advanced version of its payload family with advanced operational and video processing.

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24341 ... zTTrMBKgmY