Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Mar 2022 10:50

Brilliant idea.

Such an approach will also remove the need for endless summer, winter, desert, submerged, floating, lunar, mountain and valley, foster than light, and supersonic trials.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 31 Mar 2022 11:19

SidSoma wrote:HAL needs to work out a deal where they can sell the design of the helicopters to some foreign oem and then they can rebrand the same to india back.

In that case ALH for NUH and LUH would be ordered within a few months and the IA/IAF would be issuing a tender for light attack helos for LCH years ago

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 31 Mar 2022 13:14

Cain Marko wrote:Hope this is not little too little, little too late.

Its not too late. Kargil was only 22 years ago.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 31 Mar 2022 14:45

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/defencem ... esktop_web

Consequent to the CCS approval for procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters, Ministry of Defence has inked two separate contracts for Indian Air Force and Indian Army with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at total cost of Rs. 3,887 Cr. This is a significant capability boost and a tribute to indigenous design and development capability. A true step towards Atmanirbharta.

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 31 Mar 2022 14:55

SidSoma wrote:HAL needs to work out a deal where they can sell the design of the helicopters to some foreign oem and then they can rebrand the same to india back.

HAL needs to set up a western company HALEY Inc. and staff all Natashas in marketing, while keeping production local just like IT local units of G,FB etc... they will do roaring business.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 31 Mar 2022 16:02

Fantastic idea indeed:

1. HAL will get export promotion bonuses, HAL wins
2. Price will be padded, middlemen, Natashas, Chandigarh lobby win
3. Foreign company will rebrand and sell to IAF, <insert foreign country here> wins
4. IAF will get foreign maal, IAF wins
5. IAF will order in bulk and make up for sagging numbers, national security wins
6. HAL will be more efficient when orders are large and predictable, exchequer wins

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Mar 2022 22:49

jaysimha wrote:Consequent to the CCS approval for procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters, Ministry of Defence has inked two separate contracts for Indian Air Force and Indian Army with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at total cost of Rs. 3,887 Cr. This is a significant capability boost and a tribute to indigenous design and development capability. A true step towards Atmanirbharta.

Please provide links to images.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Apr 2022 10:31

Rakesh wrote:
jaysimha wrote:Consequent to the CCS approval for procurement of 15 Light Combat Helicopters, Ministry of Defence has inked two separate contracts for Indian Air Force and Indian Army with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited at total cost of Rs. 3,887 Cr. This is a significant capability boost and a tribute to indigenous design and development capability. A true step towards Atmanirbharta.
Please provide links to images.

It is posted by Directorate of Public Relations, Ministry of Defence,India
in linkedin

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/defencem ... esktop_web

ok now i got it .. how to post from linkedin

SinghS · Post by **SinghS** » 01 Apr 2022 14:20

These orders came because HAL and other indigenous manufacturers got lucky at the expense of the Russians. No change of heart by the services. The government asked them to order...that's the only silver lining.

"Unable to Clear Rouble Payments, India Orders Indigenous Weapons to Use Up Defence Capital Budget" : https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/un ... 1786e33da7

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Apr 2022 14:53

SinghS wrote:These orders came because HAL and other indigenous manufacturers got lucky at the expense of the Russians. No change of heart by the services. The government asked them to order...that's the only silver lining.

"Unable to Clear Rouble Payments, India Orders Indigenous Weapons to Use Up Defence Capital Budget" : https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/un ... 1786e33da7

I think if you read the article it states that orders had been placed but MoD has now released funds. The whole process is screwed the armed forces are a part of it.
I suppose the Air Force has to decide which is a higher priority- the S400 or the LCH.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 01 Apr 2022 15:42

Lets hope the new oil deals with Russia will free up some funds for more LCH and other desi maal. S400 would already have been provisioned for.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Apr 2022 15:56

Cyrano wrote:Lets hope the new oil deals with Russia will free up some funds for more LCH and other desi maal. S400 would already have been provisioned for.

No no Saar we will spend money on the AK203!!!!

isubodh · Post by **isubodh** » 01 Apr 2022 16:46

Cyrano wrote:Lets hope the new oil deals with Russia will free up some funds for more LCH and other desi maal. S400 would already have been provisioned for.

It's not the oil deals, but since we couldn't buy defence items from Russia so the money was diverted to buy local stuff as else it would have been reclaimed by FinMin.
In a way the war is helping local industry.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Apr 2022 20:05

jaysimha wrote:https://www.linkedin.com/posts/defencem ... esktop_web

ok now i got it .. how to post from linkedin

Thank you. I have added the link in your original post.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 09 Apr 2022 08:07

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9aQ3NKucdw

Twin IAF LCH. we want more of these..

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 09 Apr 2022 12:24

Atmavik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9aQ3NKucdw

Twin IAF LCH. we want more of these..

Are those AAMs on the outer pylons? Mistral?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Apr 2022 22:08

With Helina tested at both desert and high altitude, SANT to follow soon, I think we have the whole package with LCH. We should go ahead full steam with its deployment.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 11 Apr 2022 22:13

fanne wrote:With Helina tested at both desert and high altitude, SANT to follow soon, I think we have the whole package with LCH. We should go ahead full steam with its deployment.

Monsoon, Fall and spring trials next..

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 11 Apr 2022 22:32

Atmavik wrote:
fanne wrote:With Helina tested at both desert and high altitude, SANT to follow soon, I think we have the whole package with LCH. We should go ahead full steam with its deployment.

Monsoon, Fall and spring trials next..

Don’t be flippant. Budget, funds and MMRCA. We can’t have everything

John · Post by **John** » 11 Apr 2022 22:41

ernest wrote:
Atmavik wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9aQ3NKucdw

Twin IAF LCH. we want more of these..

Are those AAMs on the outer pylons? Mistral?

Yea that is correct

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/mistral-atam/

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 14 May 2022 12:23

HAL takes up complete indigenization of LCH within next 3 years

2022-23 30 items
2023-24 63 items
2024-25 61 items

EoI/RFI at https://hal-india.co.in/TENDERS/M__63

Inviting industry to participate actively

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... _70hY1BkcQ

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 14 May 2022 18:08

Where r the bloody orders?

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 15 May 2022 19:30

ks_sachin wrote:Where r the bloody orders?

.
you have to specify what orders.
.
else they may mistake it for marching orders...

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 16 May 2022 09:36

ks_sachin wrote:Where r the bloody orders?

15 LSP were ordered in March.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 16 May 2022 10:46

A Deshmukh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Where r the bloody orders?
15 LSP were ordered in March.

My point exactly.

Complete indeginisation makes no economic sense for HAL for a measly 15 birds!!!

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 16 May 2022 11:12

ks_sachin wrote:Complete indeginisation makes no economic sense for HAL for a measly 15 birds!!!

Agreed and understand your angst.
Have patience. More orders will come.
Considering that ALH has been ordered in 100s in batches, I expect the same pattern with LCH also.
They ordered the first batch of LSP in March last week, I would not expect additional orders till 2023. maybe 2023Q1.
I would also like to see 200+ LCHs on the borders.

mody · Post by **mody** » 16 May 2022 15:28

More orders will follow. Once the sticking points was a high import content of the helis. Remeber a few years back HAL also went in indegenisation of a lot of parts of the ALH as well. Some reports mention that the current indigenous content of the LCH prototypes is about 45%, which is considered too low. For the atmanirbhar push and also to reduce the cost, the services and the govt might be pressurizing HAL to commit to greater levels of indigenization. The cost of the LCH has been one of the sticking points for the services. Apparently the price is significantly higher than the ALH and Rudra. One of the reasons for the services to favour the Rudra more and pine after more Apache's if they can be had for a few extra dollars. No official figures known though.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 May 2022 20:50

After Brahmos, Philippines Looking To Buy LCAs And LCHs
https://ommcomnews.com/india-news/after ... s-and-lchs
16 May 2022

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 May 2022 21:58

Mody,

It's quite strange that LCH will not get orders because of high imported content.

But India has no problem with 100 % imported systems.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 16 May 2022 22:06

^^ I was thinking the same. Indian products will be rejected for high import content, and then generals will go for 100% import as a substitute. I can't wrap my head around this

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 May 2022 22:06

I believe the fuselage for the AH-64 is made by TASL.

The AH-64 is good for induction by the IAF and the IA, because it contains local content.

The LCH is not good for induction by the IAF and the IA, because it contains a high level of imported content.

I get it now. Makes perfect sense.

mody · Post by **mody** » 18 May 2022 14:28

Pratyush wrote:Mody,

It's quite strange that LCH will not get orders because of high imported content.

But India has no problem with 100 % imported systems.

Guys I am not supporting this assertion, its just what some of the news reports indicate. Its a classic chicken and egg problem. MoD asking for greater indigenization, whereas HAL asking for orders, so that it can try to get the required parts developed by its vendors.
The services are lusting after imported maal is totally unforgivable, as they probably doon't understand that having a robust Indian MIC, is part of the overall defense preparedness of the country and the services have to be at the forefront of getting new weapons and systems developed in house.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 18 May 2022 15:32

IMHO there is another angle which we should consider.
What is the or what are the big differences between a Rudra Squadron and the LCH squadron ?

the reason I ask is because can anyone confirm if the Rudra Squadrons in tactical Dhruv like duties when they are not flying in combat training missions. The Rudra serves , IMHO and not confirmed as a dual role chopper. Light attack and recon when in war otherwise flipping roles from week to week when training and hauling loads.

I am struggling to see why our IAF is not ordering more dedicated squadrons of LCH when they are ordering a different airframe with the same gun, same optics, same engine from the same company BUT a different airframe.

The other thing that has made me contemplate this is.... our IAF never had more than two squadrons of the Hind choppers. Are they struggling to grow a purely fighting force strategically past the Apache + ONE LSP (LCH) squadron ?

I believe the respite will come when it comes from the Army in high numbers. Just my two cents.
There are going to be a lot of cagey armoured officers in the Battalion Messes right now who used to claim complete immunity in those tin cans.

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 19 May 2022 04:20

Indian Armed Forces have very much demonstrated to us over the years that unless we have a unique weapon system that no one else will provide us or the manufacturing agencies have demonstrated beyond an iota of doubt about the capability of the weapon system, they will not place any order or will place token orders when the Government of the day forces them to do so. They have also demonstrated time and again that when they identify a proven weapon system, they are ready to pull all strings to ensure either they get those systems even if they don't meet all their (own) GSQR's or tailor the GSQR to zero in on a specific weapon platform. So there is no point in showing our angst on different topics the same problem over and over again. It is to our individual and collective imaginations what factors drive in their decision making process. To me the answer is there in our Rocket force or missile technology. When we have proven technology and the experience to deliver on the promises quickly (before the GSQR's become obsolete) or have a product roadmap (Akash, Akash 1S, Akash Prime & Akash NG), the armed forces are ready to accept them without any qualms about an Foreign equivalent. Indian Government has to invest a lot in our R&D organizations, more than they do today to increase the man power and achieve what we have achieved in the domain of missiles. That is the one & only way we can dictate terms to our armed forces. I am very hopeful that in this decade we will achieve that in many other domains and by 2030 there should be only a handful of technologies for which we will look for imports. Till then we will have many more such examples and a lot more heart burn.

As far as the case of LCH, I think there are 2 factors that are delaying firm orders. First one being its comparison with Rudra which can move troops and also be a gun ship. The second one is the integration of home grown ATGM's integration with LCH.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 19 May 2022 10:46

Rakesh wrote:After Brahmos, Philippines Looking To Buy LCAs And LCHs
https://ommcomnews.com/india-news/after ... s-and-lchs
16 May 2022

marcos has declared his intention of getting closer to the cheenis and we have the brahmos on our export list to the philippines........

his apparent landslide victory in the philippines presidential election is giving rise to immediate concerns about a further erosion of democracy in the region

Marcos Presidency Complicates US Efforts to Counter China

Marcos has been short on specifics about foreign policy, but in interviews he said he wanted to pursue closer ties with China,

https://thediplomat.com/2022/05/marcos- ... ter-china/

mody · Post by **mody** » 19 May 2022 17:19

Khalsa wrote:IMHO there is another angle which we should consider.
What is the or what are the big differences between a Rudra Squadron and the LCH squadron ?

the reason I ask is because can anyone confirm if the Rudra Squadrons in tactical Dhruv like duties when they are not flying in combat training missions. The Rudra serves , IMHO and not confirmed as a dual role chopper. Light attack and recon when in war otherwise flipping roles from week to week when training and hauling loads.

I am struggling to see why our IAF is not ordering more dedicated squadrons of LCH when they are ordering a different airframe with the same gun, same optics, same engine from the same company BUT a different airframe.

From the published photos of the Rudra, it doesn't seem that it can perform the duties of a regular Dhruv, when not carrying weapons. The inside cabin has a lot of equipment, that will not allow any substantial material or number of troops to be carried.
I am saying this simply based on the photos of the Rudra that are available in the public domain and I may be wrong.

One this is certain is that there is significant price difference between the Rudra and the LCH as it stands currently. No are no figures available publicly that I know off, but there have been some reports to this effect.
The services are loading up on Rudra and thus sabotaging the LCH in my opinion. Now there is a demand to increase the indigenous content of the LCH and thereby lower the upfront and the maintenance and operational cost in the future. In the meantime, the IAF has already got 22 Apache's and a number of Rudra. Plus will get 10 LCH-LSP. The Army, which should be getting a much larger share, has ordered about 72 Rudra, plus has 6 Apache's on order. They will also receive 5 LCH-LSP. (The number of LSPs going to the two services should have been reverse....don't understand the numbers).

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 19 May 2022 19:46

If LCH comes, it will reduce the repeat order for AH64. I think its the US lobby orchestrating this show with our internal import lobby. The inter services tussle over armed helos between iaf and ia could also be factor. The service that loads up on LCH more cant justify AH64.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 May 2022 20:05

One of the defence you tube channel is reporting that is nidan is going to order 60 additional AH 64s

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 20 May 2022 03:12

Pratyush wrote:One of the defence you tube channel is reporting that is nidan is going to order 60 additional AH 64s

I think its Boeing's suggestion that we need 60 apaches according to India Defence Updates youtube channel.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 May 2022 07:46

Yes you are right. I had only seen the thumbnail at that point of time.