2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 08 Mar 2021 05:45

Since then 8 out of 9 have been acquitted . Many to this day refuse to believe such a high profile person was killed by a gang over road rage.

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/8 ... der-108430

Kerala is a land of intrigue, nowhere in India does radical islam, radical evangelism, middle eastern money, hawala, gold smuggling, communist parties and billionaire businessmen intertwine and share the same space. Two other high profile individuals have gone AWOL in the recent days - the brothers Pramod Manghat and Prasanth Manghat, both were CEOs of UK based Finablr (parent company of UAE Exchange) and Abu Dhabi based NMC Healthcare co respectively . The founder of UAE Exchange and NMC Healthcare , BR Shetty, has accused the Manghat brothers for hiding 6 billion dollars in loans which eventually led to the bankruptcy of both companies leaving global banks including Indian public sector banks holding hundreds of millions dollars in bad loans.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 08 Mar 2021 05:45

sanjayc wrote:
darshan wrote:Everytime I access opindia and swarajya, it's a little bittersweet feeling for this Gujarati. GJ has been under BJP forever but there's hardly any pro Hindu offshoots that have come about: no think tanks, no research centers, no book publishing houses, no newspapers, no media houses, etc. Any sort of ecosystem has clearly failed to develop. Safer place to operate hasn't meant expansion. If anything, there's been contraction of the ecosystem within GJ in the last 20 years.

Why? What are the root causes?
Shows lack of vision and inability to comprehend how to secure the future and remove sources of threats. Even if BJP rules India for 50 years, the Cong-communist-Islamist ecosystem will remain as strong as ever.

Wasn’t KM Munshi, of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan fame a Gujarati? What is the current status of Bhavan?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 08 Mar 2021 06:21

Suraj wrote:Thanks ! Yes I plan to write more, and focused more on political economy .

JEM asked me to write articles quite some time ago . I finally wrote one and sent him the draft . He forwarded it to Swarajya who accepted it immediately and published it within a matter of hours after reformatting it to make everything into small bite size portions that could be tweeted .

Like I said it’s foundation material with reference data . It got surprising traction because it’s original research and hopefully it enables various folks to write more articles building upon a solid foundation that gives them the list of achievements, legislation and political spectrum classification.

From my own research I’ve never seen BJP properly characterized, and certainly not as a liberal Conservative party. But that’s exactly what their record shows. I did not like the whole Modi=Trump analogy. The republicans would never pass abortion and transgender rights legislation. The BJP has already done both, and more . They are much more like the Christian Democrats in this regard.

I wonder if a solid facts & figures based article like yours could also be characterized as an opinion piece: after all, you are offering the Christian Democrats as an analogy, based on facts & figures. That, I would say is your opinion.

(Personally I have been thinking of BJP (taking only its governance and not its election campaigns into consideration) as a more functional, less corrupt version of the Indian National Congress. (Yes, that’s a completely imaginary version, with no real-world counterpart. But still....) So, that’s a different opinion based on the same facts.)

I posted your article on a WA group of high-cognition Indians “of a certain age” who all have high opinions of themselves. Predictably, the resident India-hater (resident in New Delhi, journalism professor), attacked Swarajya as having no credibility, because (according to him) someone somewhere found that their reporting was erroneous on multiple occasions.

I have long experience with this individual, so I knew better than to try and reason with him. Instead, I just

- told him he was getting up to his usual thought-policing tricks

-pointed out that this is not a news report but an opinion piece, which can be read and evaluated on its own merits

- pointed out that the much-venerated (in this circle) NYT has had quite a lot of problems with its reportage.

Reason I am sharing this here is that a point was raised as to what the intended audience may be. I believe that it is useless to even think of reasoning with individuals like my WA “pal.” On the other hand, your article is a welcome & strong effort at patriotic Indians taking ownership of the telling of 21st century India’s story. My “pal”’s response reflects the angst at seeing the “subordinate” voice throwing off that status and speaking up for itself.

Going by SM like Twitter, there is too much raging against the ancien regime for hijacking our story and too little of taking possession of our own story.

It’s a great step you & JEM took to remedy the situation.

By the way, I didn’t think your article was strident at all. It is a fact that the Anglosphere is, by default, ignorant or oblivious of European political organizations / configurations. On my “high-cognition” WA group, a strongly pro-BJP participant took issue with your article, protesting that the BJP is nothing like the (US) Democratic Party. Demonstrating that just being a brainiac doesn’t protect you from being a careless reader, oblivious to your own deficiencies of knowledge.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2021 08:09

KLNMurthy wrote:I wonder if a solid facts & figures based article like yours could also be characterized as an opinion piece: after all, you are offering the Christian Democrats as an analogy, based on facts & figures. That, I would say is your opinion.

I think the better word here is 'lack of rigour'. This is fundamentally political science, but despite the name, it's not a science. However the article is not an 'opinion' in the sense that I'm making an assumption on the basis of lack of facts. I'm using immutable case record of their legislative and executive actions, and then attempting to map that to a set of terms whose precise definitions are... somewhat wooly. Quite often, many large parties can be fit into multiple baskets. This is particularly true of the left. Take a look at the Democratic Party (US): modern liberalism, conservatism (??), centrism, left wing populism, progressivism. The mainstream center-right is rather easier to classify in comparison.

There's no cut and dried definition of a political party as a particular kind, i.e. BJP as a liberal Conservative party today. In fact, 10 years ago I would not have made that characterization, because the data would not support it. 20 years ago they were quite something else. Historically the BJP's orientation would better classify as national conservatism - in fact that's how wiki for all its worth classifies them in this link. They are classified as national conservatives along with the Hindu Mahasabha, which most BJP supporters would LOL about "No way! BJP does nothing for Hindus now ? What have they done to free temples ? {Insert other Hindu issues}".

Another form of conservatism is traditional conservatism. BJP does have some aspects of that, but there are too many policy actions that contradict it. Traditional conservatism pushes paternal traditional societal structures, and is more resistant to change. Traditional conservatives like the Republicans would not be caught dead passing abortion rights and transgender rights laws, like the BJP already has done.

Liberal conservatism differs from these primarily in that it accepts that there is a natural order that evolves with time. They don't see the point in standing resolutely against change, but place far more value upon orderliness of change than change itself. Modern liberalism emphasizes the opposite - change itself is the most important thing, not order. The more anarchist elements see value in the lack of orderliness.

The BJP understands, for example, that the third gender is an accepted part of Indian culture. It may or may not be viewed as 'normal', but fundamentally it is not something to be crushed out of existence, or something they want to pretend doesn't exist. There's no harm in legislation that accords them basic dignity of life, therefore such legislation has already been passed. This is liberal conservatism. Traditional conservatism would not take this approach.

Feel free to lay out all those laws (suitably edited so its hard to guess provenance) - I would argue that 10/10 of your WA group would not guess that that policy record is that of the BJP.

KLN Murthy wrote:On my “high-cognition” WA group, a strongly pro-BJP participant took issue with your article, protesting that the BJP is nothing like the (US) Democratic Party.

I didn't say anything like that

In fact I think the Democrats don't quite realize that their president is a centrist Christian Democrat whose views are likely far more aligned to Modi than the modern liberal / progressive elements of his own party. There's an incredible amounts of cognitive dissonance here. Part of that is because BJP is not the party it originated as, and under Modi it has taken a direction that aligns it with mainstream European conservatism more than its own past history.

My next article or two intends to address these topics in much more detail...

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 08 Mar 2021 11:41

A little late to the party but just wanted to say it was an amazing article by Suraj sir.

Have a small question too. Was the usage of the word "woke" in the article ("even woke progressive leitmotifs like LGBTQ rights.") deliberate(as a way to slightly mock the sjw/woke gang in angloshpere) or was it strictly academical? Have no issues either way(would actually prefer the former

), just want to understand what the author wishes to convey.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2021 11:47

Well they call themselves woke . If they also feel mocked by it, what to do onlee ?

disha · Post by **disha** » 08 Mar 2021 11:57

Suraj San, excellent article and congratulations on its publication. It sets up a refreshing narrative from the tired left vs. right.

I do feel that we are still viewing the polity in India from coloured prisms of the west. And now we are carrying the narrative forward with a prism rooted in the west.

Let me try to explain. Comparing BJP as Hindu Democrats on the lines of Christian Democrats of the Europe still is putting the western lens on an Indian context to make it palatable to the West.

Personally I do not mind such a characterization, since it is a step forward from the ridiculous 'left' vs 'right' debate emanating from the constricted pseudo-liberal american context. For example the 'liberal left' in US has descended into 'Loony Left Conservatism' to the point where the 'conservatives' are feeling stifled.

So any step forward is welcome. However the ultimate goal should be to set the right context for India and set up a pax-Indica view on both West and East. This eliminates to constantly play by the western narratives.

For example, Bhutan does not pursue GDP, but GNH. It makes sense. To a degree. Since it was again thought in modern terms by a European.

The way I would view BJP's policy is through Dharmic Liberalism. It is just dharmic to ensure that all Indians receive a basic life and access to opportunities. The same dharma is applied with the dealings with vaccine supplies to the world. The same dharma is applied to stare down China and deal with pakistan. This dharma also is fluid and pragmatic to a degree. For example, Dharma entails that the corruption being evil must be rooted out. However rooting out corruption in one go might result in a situation where it may end up hurting the same segments you are trying to uplift.

So we should identify a frame of reference for Indian politics including Modi's politics rooted in Indian reference and then apply it to both west and east. For example we can put Pakistan's politics under the Kabila system. It is apt. You explain the Kabila system and ergo you will be able to explain the Pakistani polity. West will be hardpressed to explain it.

Again this is not easy. However we are at a point where we can start creating a frame of reference from the Indian POV.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Mar 2021 12:50

I had similar thoughts, disha.

Suraj's article is very welcome to move away from the left-right narrative, but ultimately, we shouldn't even be defined using Western terms (like Christian Democrat) because that's also a word-trap. We should have our own terms (be they in English or Sanskrit or any other native language) which defines who we are, on our terms. Let the rest of the world understand our language/culture & see us/themselves from our eyes.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Mar 2021 13:21

A hard-hitting piece against Jharkand CM Hemant Soren's attempts to separate the Vanavasis from Hinduism. Clearly, the guy is on the missionary payroll. Time & time again, Hindus vote for parties that are inimical to their interest (in this case, voting out NDA and voting in JMM+Congress).

This feels like AP & YSR/Jagan

https://theprint.in/opinion/hemant-sore ... on/615504/

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 08 Mar 2021 13:48

Prem Kumar wrote:A hard-hitting piece against Jharkand CM Hemant Soren's attempts to separate the Vanavasis from Hinduism. Clearly, the guy is on the missionary payroll. Time & time again, Hindus vote for parties that are inimical to their interest (in this case, voting out NDA and voting in JMM+Congress).

This feels like AP & YSR/Jagan

https://theprint.in/opinion/hemant-sore ... on/615504/

The general Hindu does not think well of dalits and adivasis.

The fault is our own

temples are for all Hindus and making it caste or community based will have severe and damaging consequences for us.

no use in crying over spilt milk thereafter

Corrective steps even now is not too late. The situation can still be recovered.

as a society, we must learn to be welcoming instead of being continually critical

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2021 13:49

Yes I'm well aware of the word association with a western term. But my thought process here is this:
1. I think too much energy is spent on naming the term. There's probably 5 different suggestions made so far. I think the amount of energy spent on coming up with alternate names is premature and wasted.
2. The Bhutan analogy takes a direction that's exactly the opposite of my interest. I am not seeking an inward looking view here.

I'm reminded of Nehru's attitude when I read things like 'let them understand our ...'. This is fundamentally premature and IMHO, quite naive, because it assumes they want to learn, but just haven't been taught the right way. But that is wrong.

Indian polity and the BJP in particular is quite deliberately and willfully misrepresented right now. Do I really need to prove this to you ? Not likely. We are all aware of it.

Here's what I am doing:

They already have a structure (the western originated concept of political spectrum and terms like liberal conservatism), and they have a characterization of India. I'm attacking the fundamental weakness here - the way they characterize Indian polity does not fit the structure they themselves constructed.

By presenting hard data and reference to legislation, I'm forcing the conversation into data driven territory. This enables the Indian ecosystem to describe itself in terminology it can actually back up . So please, step back and think why I spent so much time collecting data.

I think posters are spending too much time expressing their own idea of what this alternate structure looks like. If you prefer to build a non western narrative and terminology based on the factual base here, by all means do so. This is not going to happen though N people telling me N different ideas that they think constitutes the right way. That would just constitute noise that's hard to absorb and translate into narratives.

At this point, telling me 'it should have been named Dharmic Liberalism' or something else is somewhat pointless. It will take a lot more than that to express such a term and that will take effort on your own part.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Mar 2021 19:25

Look, understand what's being done by Suraj.

First is to make the hackneyed trope of BJP == RW or fascists etc or Nazis etc irrelevant. You need to get your voice out there and make it easy for ppl to understand stuff. You need to back your opinion up with actual details.

A few years from now, someone may finesse the above even further and make further changes or evolution. That too is fine.
A good start has been made. Rest is quibbling IMHO.

Without facts and details, one can't expect to be taken seriously or be relevant to any serious viewer. I used to make lengthy posts too on desi R&D and IAF, etc and a handful of folks would always think it was funny or pointless etc. Funnily enough, others saw value outside BRF and would routinely take my posts, extract whatever they wanted of value and spread it around. In my view, purpose served.

So, bash on regardless.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2021 21:50

I think the defense correspondence is a very good one. “LCA is a 3 gen 3-legged cheetah”. Rather than get into a mud fight, list what 4G means. List LCAs features . Show the supplier, LRU, the videos of that in operation, then restate its 4G and see what happens.

Fundamental to this approach is that one does not need to argue with the other side. The other side argued with itself. It can pretend the data does not exist. So add some more pics, maybe from their own mag or air show.

Here’s another analogy. You’re out buying karela. You offer shopkeeper:
You: I’ll give you Rs.100
SK: No
You: 110 ?
SK: No
...
What’s happening here ? You’re not bargaining with them. You are bargaining against yourself.

This is what happens when you collect data, and present the reality that their characterizations do not fit their own structure. One does not need to argue then - one can continuously construct their own narrative while compelling the other side to bargain against their own structure.

Fundamentally this approach gives space. You’re no longer the defensive. Data is already there. If I encounter someone who argued I’ll post that article link. If they won’t look at Swarajya I’ll post the data there. From prsindia. From FT. Bloomberg. And more. Crucially I am not incestuously quoting our ecosystem - I’m literally using data from ‘their’ sources. Lay it in front of them and let them fight it, and in the space you move on.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 08 Mar 2021 23:01

In this context, when people instead prefer to focus on perfecting names, here's what's happening - you're making me bargain against myself. "No you should call it ABC instead of HDP". "No call it XYZ, not ABC". If you feel so strongly and have a well evolved thought process on why a certain term should be used, go ahead and write up something. But try to understand what the basis of data serves. And also that all the alternate names are just noisy bargaining against ourself we can do without right now.

It's important to consider the meta information of conversation. For example:
1. When the BJP is repeatedly called 'fascist' etc, they are being repeatedly forced to defend and expend energy on defense. Attacking here is very low cost. Make up all kinds of things from 'fascist' to 'Aurangzeb was a woke progressive LGBTQ advocate for Hindus' .
2. Data - significant amounts of it from different sources - serves to compel the other side to bargain against themselves. They can choose to ignore data and thereby openly be anti-their-own-science, Or make up new definitions... whatever it is, this puts the burden of effort upon that party.
3. Debating various terms of what the perfect term for BJP is. This is an act of bargaining against oneself (using us collectively as one) repeatedly, and a drain on energy. Choose another direction to focus upon - target the broader home audience, the opposition, or 'the west' instead.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 08 Mar 2021 23:20

Each year in France the whole country slows down during summer holidays for about 6 weeks, mid-July to end of Aug. During this lull, all major political parties organise their own 2 week "summer university" where thought leaders present analyses, policy papers and debate future course of action, regarding the issues, challenges and opportunities facing the country, their own party and sometimes the wider world. They often get outside thinkers to weigh in as well. Sometimes new faces and leaders may emerge and camps within the party get rearranged to varying degrees. The atmosphere is relaxed but serious if not studious. One can call it a widely cast chintan-baithak. Press is allowed in some meetings and interviews are granted, lot of messaging happens. Media reports quite extensively on the goings on.

Don't know if such "pause and reflect" gatherings happen in India among BJP and other parties. The kind of discussion we are having here should happen there.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 08 Mar 2021 23:53

https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll ... ne/1749448
UN asks India to mediate between Israel & Palestine

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Mar 2021 00:17

vijayk wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll ... ne/1749448
UN asks India to mediate between Israel & Palestine

this is from 1 year ago.

And obviously it never amounted to anything.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Mar 2021 00:20

May I request forumites: before posting a news link or a social media (Twitter) post, please have a critical read of it, paying attention to details such as dates, nature & quality of source, context etc.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 09 Mar 2021 00:21

KLNMurthy wrote:
vijayk wrote:https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll ... ne/1749448
UN asks India to mediate between Israel & Palestine
this is from 1 year ago.

And obviously it never amounted to anything.

oops ... sorry for outdated news

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Mar 2021 00:22

Cyrano wrote:Each year in France the whole country slows down during summer holidays for about 6 weeks, mid-July to end of Aug. During this lull, all major political parties organise their own 2 week "summer university" where thought leaders present analyses, policy papers and debate future course of action, regarding the issues, challenges and opportunities facing the country, their own party and sometimes the wider world. They often get outside thinkers to weigh in as well. Sometimes new faces and leaders may emerge and camps within the party get rearranged to varying degrees. The atmosphere is relaxed but serious if not studious. One can call it a widely cast chintan-baithak. Press is allowed in some meetings and interviews are granted, lot of messaging happens. Media reports quite extensively on the goings on.

Don't know if such "pause and reflect" gatherings happen in India among BJP and other parties. The kind of discussion we are having here should happen there.

Yes they have them. Chintan baithaks (as you noted), manthan shibirs, some equivalent Congress thing, and definitely the communists and naxalites do it as well.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Mar 2021 00:29

vijayk wrote:Overall, it was impressive article. I was collecting all this info on hoping to write on how welfarism should be executed in poor countries like India.

We need to do more:

* one track has to be impressive gains made by BJP - FInanical inclusion Jandhan, DBT and UPI, farm reforms
* one track has to be privatization, capacity increase and expansion of manufacturing via policy changes of incentives.

I wish BJP folks are more smarter and propagate this message than trying to suck up to the leadership

Forgot to respond to this earlier. May I suggest more care around the term 'welfarism' ? This is a very broad term, and can be interpreted to mean a welfare state, with some variant of cradle to grave state support to its citizens. It could be all the way to Nordic welfare state model, or some other variant, e.g. Japan.

The provision of things like financial inclusion, DBT, electricity, tap water, basic housing are not really welfare activities. Rather, these are domains that constitute natural monopolies. In a capital constrained poor country with large population, market forces cannot serve out utilities that constitute such natural monopolies because too many people are too poor to afford it out of pocket, and the lack of bank credit means they cannot finance it. The government has a legitimate role in being the monopoly provider.

This is why Saubhagya mission (electricity), Swacch Bharat Mission (sanitation) , PMAY (housing) and Ayushman Bharat (health) are important. They are specifically aimed at executing basic utilities and quality of life requirements in domains that are natural monopolies, where aggressive targeted effort was required to make it available to all quickly.

In my view, the current BJP administration does not believe in welfarmism - in the Indian context the 'mai baap sarkar'. The government does not want to 'give them jobs'. Jobs are created by economic vibrancy that enables businesses to start and thrive. They're not doing a perfect job of it by any stretch right now, but often the constraints are issues on the states list not the central or joint list.

Top down, the government has targeted quickly fixing domains where it is the natural monopoly utility provider. Once it has provided ~100% cover, it can then later deregulate that business and let market forces operate, e.g. how power productions, discoms have all been progressively unbundled. Elsewhere, it has relentlessly tried to minimize the interface to government - a distinctly conservative 'small government' approach . DBT instead of middlemen and ration cards. Dispense with RTO visits. Replace toll booths with fastag... they want to take away a large amount of interaction between public and government. This is not characteristic of a welfare state, where this interaction is very high.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 09 Mar 2021 01:05

Part of the difficulty in characterising today's BJP (considering the last 6 years) is that some of the biggest steps it has taken and implemented have been kind of thrust upon it, due to monumental inaction of previous govts, especially the Congress.

Modi himself thanked the congress and opposition parties in a parliament speech saying "If you had done what needed to be done like toilets, water, gas, housing etc, we would not have had the opportunity to do these things. So the credit of our success goes to you, for decades of inaction." Though the tone was jovial, he was not joking.

A lot of things BJP has done are therefore based on an agenda of need than an agenda of creed.

Thats why we see them doing the full stretch between LGBT rights on one end and farm law reforms on the other. Seen this way, the comparison with Christian Democrats of Europe today might be of transient concordance, four years from now, the if the govt keeps up the pace, they will do things some other political current elsewhere might do.

Apart from the anglicised press, most Indians love Modi and support BJP for the stable cleaning they are doing, which is leading to the betterment of a billion lives, than for adhering to this ideology or that, even Hindutva ideology is somewhat secondary to betterment, especially for rural voters. Thats also why there are few takers for the "Hindu nationalist right wing" tarring that opposition and media keeps doing. And they do it because besides using some borrowed terminology they have little else to paint NaMo & the Govt black with.

Sometime ago, we had interesting discussions about the govt in power needing to do the right things it can sell well to get reelected, than just doing the right things. Currently BJP is doing enough of both, thanks to NaMo's personal commitment, drive and wisdom. What would BJP be capable of when NaMo retires into a gufa in a few years is anybody's guess at this point of time.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Mar 2021 01:37

All political parties are creatures of their circumstances. Parties that tend to focus entirely upon creed at the exclusion of the environment around them, typically never gain mass acceptance. Either that, or their creed leads them to violent upheaval, e.g. in the case of Trumpism.

I'm not making the claim that the BJP was always liberal conservative. They certainly were not during the BJS era - they were a very nationalist conservative entity then. Parties evolve. People in charge of the parties also evolve, e.g. LKA of RJB movement and LKA of late 2000s.

To have a better idea of what a party is oriented towards at present is an important piece of information regardless. The BJP's current liberal conservatism is a Modi era orientation of the party.

mukkan · Post by **mukkan** » 09 Mar 2021 06:35

All politicians knows freebies wins elections. Earlier it was 1 Kg of rice, then it became toilets, gas stoves, houses, TVs, phones, direct cash transfer ever growing list of freebies in the name of lifting poverty. There is no difference in any parties as they cannot win elections without this. Who is paying for all this freebies, mostly salaried middle class. For the salaried middle class, the big difference between BJP and INC is lack of nepotism and corruption. But this may change in future as they stay longer in power.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/tami ... eas/729535

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 09 Mar 2021 07:00

Suraj wrote:
vijayk wrote:Overall, it was impressive article. I was collecting all this info on hoping to write on how welfarism should be executed in poor countries like India.

We need to do more:

* one track has to be impressive gains made by BJP - FInanical inclusion Jandhan, DBT and UPI, farm reforms
* one track has to be privatization, capacity increase and expansion of manufacturing via policy changes of incentives.

I wish BJP folks are more smarter and propagate this message than trying to suck up to the leadership
Forgot to respond to this earlier. May I suggest more care around the term 'welfarism' ? This is a very broad term, and can be interpreted to mean a welfare state, with some variant of cradle to grave state support to its citizens. It could be all the way to Nordic welfare state model, or some other variant, e.g. Japan.

I believe I too used “welfarism” in connection with the BJP in a rather loose sense (haters would say “lazy”); I don’t mean the nordic concept at all; I meant to say “something that is certainly not the Thatcherite-Reaganite anti-government idea of proudly leaving the poor to their fate.” The reason for the (admittedly lay) choice of usage was to reject the default expectation (which persists stubbornly despite evidence to the contrary) of the BJP has been, and remains, that it is only for the rich or “trader” classes (along with the “fascism”) and is some sort of doctrinaire free market libertarian in outlook.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Mar 2021 07:13

I think the easiest polemical response to that argument is to ask - if the Congress was at the vanguard of welfarism, then:
* Why did rural India have 1% sanitation cover in 1980, and only 38% in 2014 ?
* Why did rural India only have 16% tap water connectivity in 2019 ?
* Why was housing for all a long way from completion - even behind Pakistan and Bangladesh until 2014 ? Bangladesh reported ~80% . India reported 71% before PMAY started in 2017, and is due to get to 100% by 2022.

So the simple question is "what the cluck was the welfare party actually doing about welfare ?"

mukkan · Post by **mukkan** » 09 Mar 2021 07:48

Short answers for all the below is the election could be won in the past without giving any of these. Maybe because of booth capturing or because of aspirations of people were much lower. Maybe they were able to get votes by giving 1Kg of rice (refer to my previous post, scope and cost of freebies to get votes are increasing).

Suraj wrote:I think the easiest polemical response to that argument is to ask - if the Congress was at the vanguard of welfarism, then:
* Why did rural India have 1% sanitation cover in 1980, and only 38% in 2014 ?
* Why did rural India only have 16% tap water connectivity in 2019 ?
* Why was housing for all a long way from completion - even behind Pakistan and Bangladesh until 2014 ? Bangladesh reported ~80% . India reported 71% before PMAY started in 2017, and is due to get to 100% by 2022.

So the simple question is "what the cluck was the welfare party actually doing about welfare ?"

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Mar 2021 08:04

mukkan wrote:Short answers for all the below is the election could be won in the past without giving any of these. Maybe because of booth capturing or because of aspirations of people were much lower. Maybe they were able to get votes by giving 1Kg of rice (refer to my previous post, scope and cost of freebies to get votes are increasing).

What are you trying to do here and whom are you representing while claiming to ‘answer’ ? All those explanations demonstrate incompetence or willful disregard for public duty, or both. I have no idea how this post relates to the one it quotes.

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 09 Mar 2021 12:24

Suraj wrote:I think the easiest polemical response to that argument is to ask - if the Congress was at the vanguard of welfarism, then:
* Why did rural India have 1% sanitation cover in 1980, and only 38% in 2014 ?
* Why did rural India only have 16% tap water connectivity in 2019 ?
* Why was housing for all a long way from completion - even behind Pakistan and Bangladesh until 2014 ? Bangladesh reported ~80% . India reported 71% before PMAY started in 2017, and is due to get to 100% by 2022.

So the simple question is "what the cluck was the welfare party actually doing about welfare ?"

Zimble, they will blame foreign hand for their failures.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 09 Mar 2021 13:05

There is significant difference with "welfare" programs of NM and BJP sicne 2014 to earlier "welfare" of other parties and present proposals of parties like DMK, Jagan and so on. With BJP the quality of life set to improve and the money was spent to create facilities like toilets, houses, water connections, gas connections like that. Free houses etc also create employment in construction works etc. Where are cash handouts like ones given by Jagan just vanished into thin air and life of poor remained the same after the money was spent. One more thing - the program like Ayushman Bharat which is the largest health care program in the world, hardly gets any mention in Indian or global left discourse. It really shows what the left and MSM really is.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 09 Mar 2021 13:11

asgkhan wrote:
Zimble, they will blame foreign hand for their failures.

Foreign?? Since when have they done that when they can and always have blamed it on the RSS and communsl hindutva elements

vish_mulay · Post by **vish_mulay** » 09 Mar 2021 15:45

I hope this is pertinent to the discussion above

lots of important nuggets in this PDF.
https://www.indiabudget.gov.in/economic ... 0_Vol1.pdf

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Mar 2021 21:31

while the congi poodles, pappu pidis and the so called commie opposition want paper ballots back in the Indian elections, imran khan niazi, the lootyens darling and the wet dream of India's feminazi commie journos, too numerous to be named but you all know who they are, wants the next paki general elections the EVM way because he wants to ensure "transparency"

Pakistan all set to go for EVM technology in next General, Senate elections

09 Ma 2021

ISLAMABAD – Prime Minister Imran Khan has stressed the need to use electronic voting machines (EVM) in next general and Senate polls in order to ensure transparency.

The premier expressed the resolve while chairing a cabinet meeting. Khan said that he will regularly take updates on the matter as well as giving the right of franchise to overseas Pakistanis.

The prime minister said that former prime minister Nawaz Sharif and ex-president Asif Ali Zardari looted public money and laundered it to rich countries.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 09 Mar 2021 22:05

bhikari tha, bhikari rahega

imran khan niazi and his bankrupt shithole of a country.

they are expecting for free, 16 million doses of made in India vaccine via the GAVI route

this paki jehadi is far smarter than any Indian

Cash-strapped Pakistan ‘not interested’ in buying Coronavirus vaccines, happy with donated vaccines and supposed herd immunity

9 March, 2021

Cash-strapped Pakistan ‘not interested’ in buying Coronavirus vaccines, happy with donated vaccines and supposed herd immunity
Pakistan claimed that a survey, dating back to June last year, found that 15% of the population had 'developed' antibodies against the Coronavirus. As such, the authorities have decided to not vaccinate them.

In a major development, Pakistani authorities have informed that they have no plans to purchase Coronavirus vaccines, at least for the year 2021. The cash-strapped country is willing to rely upon herd immunity and donated vaccines from China and Gavi to contain the pandemic.

The matter came to light during the briefing of the Pakistani National Health Service (NHS) before the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) on Thursday (March 4). NHS Secretary Amir Ashraf Khawaja said that a Chinese company by the name of Sinopharm has promised to donate 1 million Coronavirus doses to Pakistan.

He informed that about 5 lac doses have already been handed over to the government and that a total of 2.75 lac people have been vaccinated. Although Pakistan has a population of 22.5 crores, it is planning to vaccinate only 7 crore people by the end of this year. The Imran Khan-led-government will also receive 16 million Made-in-India Coronavirus vaccines through the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunisation (Gavi) programme.

Pakistan’s vaccination programme for the elderly delayed
On being asked by PAC whether the Pakistani government has been waiting for free vaccines, NHS Secretary Amir Ashraf Khawaja replied, “We wouldn’t need to purchase much.” He said that the Made-in-India Coronavirus vaccines will reach Pakistan, starting from March itself. Pakistan’s over-reliance on donated vaccines is proving costly as the inoculation programme for the elderly that was scheduled from March 5 has been kept on hold due to a delay in receiving the consignment of vaccines.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Mar 2021 22:48

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/spot ... mpromised/

Read and think....

asgkhan · Post by **asgkhan** » 09 Mar 2021 22:53

On a sidenote, I thank the adminullahs for banning me for a week. I studied and cleared my AWS certification. This has landed me a wonderful opportunity within my orgn. Next time, I start studying for GCP, I will raise a request to ban me for a week.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 09 Mar 2021 22:55

Yagnasri wrote:There is significant difference with "welfare" programs of NM and BJP sicne 2014 to earlier "welfare" of other parties and present proposals of parties like DMK, Jagan and so on.

That is why I posted earlier in detail asking people to stop throwing the world 'welfarism' around. That the BJP did with Saubhagya/Swacch Bharat/PMJDY etc is not welfare. They're literally doing the job any government is supposed to do under the circumstances.

A political economy picture: How does an area build basic infrastructure ? Let's think of some random piece of land in the USA during the settler era. All the natives have been killed off. They need to build basic infrastructure. What to do onlee ? The settlers were few in number, well equipped with guns, tools, shovels and other equipment for their homesteading. They dig canals, they lay out at least dirt roads and do economic activities. They incorporate as a town and collect revenue which they plough back into schools, libraries and other assets. When people come to US they are surprised that libraries are free. It comes out of property taxes.

What happens in India ? The average rural area has maybe 100x the population density of settler era US rural area. Almost everyone is living a subsistence lifestyle. They cannot generate the additional wealth for the panchayat to invest in the same manner. This means even decades after independence, villages depend on a central government push to ensure basic facilities. When that doesn't happen, they stay destitute for generation after generation. Practically no one has a pakka home or bijli, poops in the nearest field and depends on a community well or handpump. Tap water is magic to them.

The government's role in such natural monopoly situations is to take charge and implement the basic infrastructure. Tata Power and Reliance Power are not going to bid for power delivery in rural Jharkhand. There's no money in it. As China demonstrated, when demand is lacking due to widespread poverty, the government drives the creation of supply, and that supply wakes up demand because all of a sudden people aren't spending 2hrs to get water, another 2hrs to find their way to the nearest town for lack of roads, and additional time at night because there's lights instead of darkness at 630pm. When they have more time, they can do more economic activities, i.e. they are able to create economic demand. Once economic demand is woken up, a natural process can work with revenues being generated from those economic surpluses, and a virtuous process of wealth building begins.

All of this begins with the government playing its natural role to take charge of providing for initial supply of natural monopolies. This is NOT welfare. Please stop calling it that.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 09 Mar 2021 22:57

I have always held the position that one doesn't make strategic mistakes over and over again without MoUs. In early decades, there was some pretense of nationalism by nehru clan because the need to stay under the radar and continue the termite work. The demography numbers required the pretense.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 09 Mar 2021 23:07

chetak wrote:bhikari tha, bhikari rahega

Cash-strapped Pakistan ‘not interested’ in buying Coronavirus vaccines, happy with donated vaccines and supposed herd immunity

https://twitter.com/TimesNow/status/1369328723393196032 India to supply Covid-19 vaccine to Pakistan.

Pak will get 45 million doses of vaccine.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 09 Mar 2021 23:19

I'm Brahmin, Don't Teach Me Hindu Dharma': Mamata Chants Chandipath, Slams BJP at Nandigram Rally

After janeudhari brahmin sri sri sri rahul .... Now didi has become brahmin... I dont know why people invoke brahminhood in crisis... I think this what left calls "brahmin patriarch "....
I dont understand One thing, why people prefer to be a brahmin to prove loyalty to hinduism... Why so called political class dont think even sudras are equal or in most of the cases more loyal to hindhism and hindu cause.

If modi rules for another 20 yrs i am sure owaisi will invoke his lost brahminhood from his grand father...