Chinese Armed Forces: News & Discussion

[hgupta]

Yes but what makes you think that the USN is going to screen and fight the PLAN for India? After all, US pretty much gave the fvck you finger when it came to India's security concerns wrt Pannu and etc.

They can very well sit by and let the PLAN go through unmolested.

Did you even read the article?

The author is talking about the PLAN's invasion of Taiwan and not India. The retired Vice Admiral is also talking about Taiwan, not India.

At no point in the article, is the author even suggesting that the US Navy is going to screen and fight the PLAN for India. Where are you getting this from?

What you have stated above has no relation to China's invasion of Taiwan.

Ok then what was the point of talking about Taiwan if it was not relevant to India's security issue. He is basically saying that India has nothing to worry about which is not true. He is lulling us into a false sense of security by saying that USN can take care of PLAN when it comes to Taiwan but saying nothing about what IN have to do to defend itself against PLAN when no-one else would come to the aid of India.

I was never under any doubt that USN would beat the crap out of PLAN but it cannot be said the same for IN. So how are we doing about it?

[Rakesh]

Ok then what was the point of talking about Taiwan if it was not relevant to India's security issue. He is basically saying that India has nothing to worry about which is not true. He is lulling us into a false sense of security by saying that USN can take care of PLAN when it comes to Taiwan but saying nothing about what IN have to do to defend itself against PLAN when no-one else would come to the aid of India.

China facing a humiliating loss in Taiwan will force the Politburo in Beijing to think twice about further military adventurisms in their neighbourhood. That is the least that will happen in China, if they lose. You are left to your imagination, as to how much further humiliation will occur after such a devastating loss. The very existence of the Communist Party in China could arguably be in doubt, if a full scale of invasion of Taiwan miserably fails.

If they could not stomach the loss of their troops at Galwan and sheepishly admitted to only four men being killed [oops...martyred ], it will be utter pandemonium in Beijing if the PLAN publicly loses the Fujian, the Shandong and/or the Liaoning and their battle groups. This is what happens when you sell your countrymen a fable that your military is invincible and undefeatable. The Communist Party will not do a single thing that will put their own position in danger. They could care less about their own countrymen. The CCP thinks only about the well being of the CCP. So if an invasion of Taiwan fails and the CCP is held accountable, what point would that serve the CCP? The Chinese people will have Xi's head on a platter.

And a loss of this magnitude is very relevant for India. Without even lifting a finger, India will emerge much stronger geopolitically against a much weaker and humiliated China. The author is not lulling anyone, especially the Indian Navy, into a false sense of security. The Indian Navy is full aware of what the PLAN is capable of and more importantly, what they are NOT capable of. They are equally aware that no one will come to India's aid, in a conflict against the PLAN. That is why the Indian Navy keeps insisting that the Quad does not have a military angle

I was never under any doubt that USN would beat the crap out of PLAN but it cannot be said the same for IN. So how are we doing about it?

Already answered by a former Chief of the Indian Navy. Our navy's capability has only continued to grow since this article was published in 2018, in the form of ASW helicopters (MH-60R), MRCBFs (Rafale M), MRMRAs (C-295), MPAs (P-8I), unmanned drones (MQ-9B), newer surface combatants (Vizag Class, Nilgiri Class) and much more.

Exclusive: We can match China in the Indian Ocean region, says Navy Chief Sunil Lanba
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/inte ... 2018-11-17
26 Nov 2018

[Manish_P]

...

But coming from the former Flag Officer Submarines, I would not completely discount it.

Not discounting it all, Rakesh ji. Far from it. Just saying that there might be a bit of the 'The war will be over and the boys will be back home by Christmas' bit about it.

[Rakesh]

Not discounting it all, Rakesh ji. Far from it. Just saying that there might be a bit of the 'The war will be over and the boys will be back home by Christmas' bit about it.

Submariners choose their words and their tactics very carefully, as their very lives depend on it. An old habit that is hard to shake off, living underwater. Comes with the territory when you become part of the silent service.

Even setting aside the Vice Admiral words, the capability gap between the two navies (US and China) is significant. In an all out shooting war, the US Navy will certainly take losses...their own think tanks are claiming losses of at least one aircraft carrier. However, how much of the PLAN's offensive war fighting capability will survive - against the US Navy - is not for the faint of heart to reflect upon.

And this conflict will be relatively quick. The US and China are the two largest economies in the world. Not possible to have a never ending slugfest like Ukraine. The world will face global economic meltdown, of which recovery will be near impossible.

What the author - Sandeep Unnithan - stated is correct ---> the US Navy's submarine fleet is indeed the most potent underwater force in history. Combine that with their carrier battle groups and anyone with a sane mind, would be wary of taking on the US Navy. The PLAN is well aware of this fact. Despite all the CCP's bluster - when then Speaker Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan - the PLAN could only sit by and watch.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1742171882206671097?s=20 ---> PLA Navy’s 85,000-ton third carrier, Fujian, is propelled by steam turbines, but comes equipped with three electro-magnetic catapults demanding high electrical loads. Considering the problems the USN has had with EMALS reliability, this could be a risky gamble.

[Manish_P]

7th gen warfare inspired by Sun Tzu -

'China missiles filled with water, not fuel: US intelligence'

The recent removals of many senior military officers from China's Rocker Force and national legislative body show that President Xi Jinping is not yet done with purge and restructuring of the People's Liberation Army(PLA). This latest purge has particularly impacted the Rocket Force, a crucial branch of the PLA responsible for tactical and nuclear missiles. As is the norm in

According to a Bloomberg report, US intelligence agencies have raised concerns about China's military capabilities, citing corruption within the People’s Liberation Army (PLA). The report, which references sources familiar with US intelligence assessments, links the recent dismissal of several high-ranking Chinese military officials to pervasive corruption in the PLA.

The corruption is reportedly most severe within China’s Rocket Force, which has seen significant investment in recent years. Instances of malpractice include missiles being filled with water instead of fuel and the construction of missile silos with defective lids that hinder effective launch capabilities, the Bloomberg report said.

[hgupta]

I think the article is misleading. There is a reason why you may want to fill up the missiles with water and that is to prevent the missiles from buckling under the payload weight when they themselves are empty of weight/fuel. The reason the missiles are empty of fuel is because they couldn't make the fuel fast enough in time to fill in the missiles or something to that effect.

[Manish_P]

Anything is possible of course.

If the US 'intelligence' could find WMDs in Iraq, it is possible that they have found water powered Chinese missiles.

[csaurabh]

I think the article is misleading. There is a reason why you may want to fill up the missiles with water and that is to prevent the missiles from buckling under the payload weight when they themselves are empty of weight/fuel. The reason the missiles are empty of fuel is because they couldn't make the fuel fast enough in time to fill in the missiles or something to that effect.

Huh? How would filling an empty missile with water prevent it from buckling?
If it is pressurized, it is more believable. In that case you just need compressed air, not water.

[hgupta]

I think the article is misleading. There is a reason why you may want to fill up the missiles with water and that is to prevent the missiles from buckling under the payload weight when they themselves are empty of weight/fuel. The reason the missiles are empty of fuel is because they couldn't make the fuel fast enough in time to fill in the missiles or something to that effect.

Huh? How would filling an empty missile with water prevent it from buckling?
If it is pressurized, it is more believable. In that case you just need compressed air, not water.

Would not compressed air leak out more whereas water uncompressed would leak less?

[csaurabh]

Would not compressed air leak out more whereas water uncompressed would leak less?

It's getting OT but:

1. If a tank is designed to be pressurized, it will be designed to not leak gases
2. If a tank isn't supposed to be pressurized, it should be strong enough to withstand the load whether water or fuel is filled into it or not.
3. Most military rockets use solid fuel. This makes this news all the more confusing, because once the solid rocket motor is casted, the fuel is just there. There is nothing like filling it with water.

[drnayar]

[drnayar]

[drnayar]

Would not compressed air leak out more whereas water uncompressed would leak less?

It's getting OT but:

1. If a tank is designed to be pressurized, it will be designed to not leak gases
2. If a tank isn't supposed to be pressurized, it should be strong enough to withstand the load whether water or fuel is filled into it or not.
3. Most military rockets use solid fuel. This makes this news all the more confusing, because once the solid rocket motor is casted, the fuel is just there. There is nothing like filling it with water.

Please see video above..has some of the answers

[sanman]

Interesting development:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... s?from=mdr

https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/11/b ... parts.html

Breakthrough Thermoacoustic Stirling Generator Converts to Energy With No Moving Parts

November 12, 2023 by Brian Wang

China has built the most powerful thermoacoustic Stirling generator. The prototype delivered a groundbreaking 102 kilowatts of power from a heat source of 530 degrees Celsius (986 Fahrenheit). This is the first time this type of breakthrough generator has gone over 100 kilowatts. Thermoacoustic engine achieves high thermal-to-electrical efficiencies with no moving parts. The new generator converts sound directly into electrical energy.

The Chinese design can be used for ultraquiet submarines.

Shouldn't we be trying to develop something like this too? If it can enable quieter submarines then it would be useful to us.

Article also mentions:

Nasa’s LEW-TOPS-80 patent proposed a thermoacoustic engine paired with an alternator to generate electricity in space. NASA has not shown a prototype.

So shouldn't ISRO also look at this technology as well? We know that ISRO is seeking collaboration with BARC for a nuclear thermal rocket engine.
But if this thermoacoustic conversion technology is very efficient, then ISRO could use it for nuclear-electric propulsion.

[Rakesh]

Paper Dragon: The overstated threat of Xi’s Navy
https://www.news9live.com/world/paper-d ... vy-2392977
01 Jan 2024

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/17 ... 22535?s=20 ---> What stands between Xi Jinping and his dream reunification of Taiwan - an undefeatable navy with the most potent underwater force in history.

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/17 ... 39680?s=20 --->

‘Undersea warfare is particularly important because that is where the West has its sharpest technological edge over Russia and China, both of which have limited capacity to detect, track and target American and allied subs.‘

@TheEconomist makes the points ^^^ I did a few days ago.

Welcome to the new era of global sea power
https://www.economist.com/international ... -sea-power
11 Jan 2024

[R Charan]

Indonesian Coast Guard Intercepts Chinese Research Vessel in EEZ heading to Maldives

The Indonesian Coast Guard (ICG) has intercepted a Chinese research vessel sailing towards the Maldives after it repeatedly switched off its automated identification system (AIS) while traversing Indonesian waters.

The research ship, identified as the Xiang Yang Hong 03, deactivated its transponder three times between January 8 and 12 within Indonesia’s exclusive economic zone (EEZ). The AIS is a crucial tool for maritime safety and transparency, broadcasting a vessel’s location, course, and other vital information to nearby ships and coastal authorities.
https://defence.in/threads/indonesian-c ... ives.3228/

[MeshaVishwas]

PLARF overview by WSJ

[sanman]

China's PLAN incorporating All-In-One Mast into their ships

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfb5E3UT68w

[sanman]

China's New Tech Can Make Fighter Jets 'Invisible'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKRQfserD3Y

Google summary:

The video talks about China's new stealth technology that can make fighter jets invisible and India's anti-stealth radars.

China has reportedly created a new generation plasma stealth device which can be tailored to fit a sensitive section of military aircraft, making parts of aircraft less visible to radar. This device works by creating a layer of plasma around the aircraft that can absorb or deflect radar waves.
Two types of plasma stealth devices have already been put to the test. One uses a radioactive isotope to ionize the air and create a dense plasma layer, and the other uses high frequency electricity to ionize the gas medium outside the aircraft.
This technology is still under development, but China is reportedly making progress. They are trying to develop a closed plasma stealth technology that would be more effective than the existing ones.
India is also working on counter-stealth technologies, including quantum radar, integrated mobile camouflage systems, and anti-radar systems. They have also developed a new material that can absorb radar waves and make stealth vehicles less visible.
India is also working on cutting edge anti-stealth radars that are designed to detect and track stealth aircraft without emitting any signal of their own.
I hope this summary is helpful!

[Rakesh]

US Admiral Warns China Could Launch Surprise Attack From Military Drills
https://www.newsweek.com/us-admiral-war ... ls-1873205
26 Feb 2024

[Rakesh]

Rare High-Rez Photos Of Chinese J-10 And J-20 Fighters Right Off The Factory
https://theaviationist.com/2024/03/14/r ... e-factory/
14 March 2024

[Rakesh]

China Will Be Ready To Invade Taiwan By 2027, U.S. Admiral Says
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush ... -says/amp/
20 March 2024

[Manish_P]

China Will Be Ready To Invade Taiwan By 2027, U.S. Admiral Says
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush ... -says/amp/
20 March 2024

No worries.. ok maybe some, but only for 48 hours

[sanman]

China's Newest Heavy Attack Helicopter Is Like the US Apache

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZgeKpCzMMk

[YashG]

China will be able to produce 300,000 cruise missile per year if this is true: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/ ... 5172770106

And we are still stuck at a few hundreds a year!

[Pratyush]

If cars can be mass produced, no reason why cruise missile or any other kind of weapon can't be mass produced. All you require is the imagination to build a line needed to get the job done.

[YashG]

If cars can be mass produced. No reason why cruise missile or any other kind of weapon can't be mass produced. All you require is the imagination to build a line needed to get the job done.

exactly. I would assume that limited production is a construct of profit making defence companies in west. This isnt a concept with russian arms industry and china it seems will completely shatter this construct.

But the ghoos-khors in MoD take their cues from western industry and therefore will never go into mass production mode.

[williams]

China will be able to produce 300,000 cruise missile per year if this is true: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/ ... 5172770106

And we are still stuck at a few hundreds a year!

300k missile in a year when there is no active war? I doubt that number. As usual it should be one of those exaggerations used by the Chins.

[JTull]

China will be able to produce 300,000 cruise missile per year if this is true: https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/ ... 5172770106

And we are still stuck at a few hundreds a year!

Since they wish to dominate the world, let them undertake this for just one year. They'd have achieved all their goals.

But they won't do it, because they can't. So whoever wrote this drivel, can roll it and put it where it hurts.

[morem]

even at a cost of $1 million ( which is ridiculously low) this still adds upto 300 billion per year. ACtual cost likely in trillions.

[chaitanya]

If true, this factory will also be the first to be targeted after hostilities break out…

[Pratyush]

Guys,

Just because a line is claimed to be capable of producing 300k missiles per year. Doesn't mean that it will. Most likely that's the max capacity of the line.

The efficient minimum annual order quantities needed to keep the line going are likely to be under one 10th of that. This does represent a serious threat. That a production of 15000 missiles over a period of 10 years will still yield 150k missile force. Priced at 2 million USD a pop, it's an investment of just 30 billion USD per annum.

[YashG]

if they are targeting 300K an year, even if they do just 1/5th. 60K an year - during wartime that will change the game. Wartime economy have no upper limit to how they want to invest. So lets say they do 60K annum during active war. That gives u a 100 cruise missiles to target enemy left right and center a day!

[nachiket]

So a random YT video claims the line can produce 1000 missiles a day and everyone just believes it? You do know the kind of propaganda the Chinese routinely indulge in right? Even then the video only says "components for 1000 missiles" not 1000 fully functional missiles (which would include 1000 jet engines for the cruise missiles) in a day.

Chinese production capacity is substantial and a threat but lets not go overboard.

[YashG]

Lets say this is propaganda but the mindset behind even this propaganda is worthy. Lets say they just do 5% of their propaganda (20 missiles a day )- even that is scary for us. I would just like to believe that we are ready for this kind of war.

[srai]

^^^
The Chinese low-cost combined with mass production likely means per unit cost actually quite reasonable (i.e. much less than $2 million).

Besides, they could be using the same plant for mass production of cheap decoys that mimic their more expensive real counterparts. To overwhelm and exhaust air defenses (of Taiwan), large numbers of both real and decoys are required.

There were US intel reports mentioning 2027 as when the Chinese will be ready to invade Taiwan. So a frantic pace and industrial scale of production of long ranged offensive munitions sounds plausible.

[konaseema]

And what kind of cruise missiles are available for $2 million a pop? Let's not kid ourselves with these propaganda. Chinese propaganda has indeed worked.

[srai]

^^^
Most of what we know from cost perspective are the Western CMs and even those are not produced in the quantities being mentioned.

[YashG]

^^^
These missiles are not just for Taiwan, they are also a super big threat to India.
It is fine to say its propaganda - it very well be. Also that costing etc will not work out. But we can ill-afford to not prepare for this kind of mass war at our own peril.