Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[Rakesh]

Instead of the 21 MiG-29 (previously semi-completed state), better now to raise 4th Mirage-2000 squadron with Qatari/UAE stocks. They are already at UPG levels. Also, use the opportunity to backfill losses and increase reserves of the existing 3 squadrons.

Move 3rd and 4th Mirage squadrons from Gawlior to Rafale bases in Hasimara and Ambala.

Indonesian M2K deal with Qatar was for quite a reasonable amount.

Back in the early 2000s when the MoD was looking at the Qatari M2Ks, we low-balled the Qataris. They felt insulted at the offer and turned it down. But this is the same MoD that has no qualms about spending billions on MMRCA and MRFA.

[Cybaru]

Maybe the Qatari and UAE mirages make sense once the LCA MK1A 97 is cleared by CCS. Give us easy 2 squadrons plus. Can help us retire some really old stuff. The oldish UAE mirages are probably good for spares or occasional use.

[hgupta]

Once the LCA MK 1A planes come online there’s absolutely no need for more Mirages. LCA Mk 1A is completely superior to Mirage 2000 in every way. We are just wasting further money. I’d rather spend the money on developing better UAV and such.

[ramana]

hgupta, there is a gap.
Even now GE slipped F404 engine delivery from August 2023 to now.
So resource planners have to hedge.

[hgupta]

hgupta, there is a gap.
Even now GE slipped F404 engine delivery from August 2023 to now.
So resource planners have to hedge.

Yes but it is temporary. Even if we get the Mirages, it will not be fully ready unless we do an overhaul of those planes. Which means that the LCA will come online before the overhauled Mirages would be ready for induction into our squadrons.

[Rakesh]

hgupta, there is a gap.
Even now GE slipped F404 engine delivery from August 2023 to now.
So resource planners have to hedge.

Indeed ---> viewtopic.php?p=2611324#p2611324

Additional twin seat Mirage 2000s are being acquired by the IAF in the 2023-24 and 2024-25 calendar years ---> viewtopic.php?p=2609992#p2609992

P.S. I am assuming these are from ex-French Air Force stocks. It would be a coup if we got them from elsewhere

[Kartik]

hgupta, there is a gap.
Even now GE slipped F404 engine delivery from August 2023 to now.
So resource planners have to hedge.

Indeed ---> viewtopic.php?p=2611324#p2611324

Additional twin seat Mirage 2000s are being acquired by the IAF in the 2023-24 and 2024-25 calendar years ---> viewtopic.php?p=2609992#p2609992

P.S. I am assuming these are from ex-French Air Force stocks. It would be a coup if we got them from elsewhere

100% from ex French Air Force stocks. They are not available anywhere else.

[R Charan]

IAF indigenised more than 60,000 components in 2-3 years: Air Chief Marshal

Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari on Saturday said the IAF has indigenised more than 60,000 components in the last two to three years. He also said the Air Force cannot rely on foreign OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) for repair and overhaul maintenance activities and that it has to be done in-house.

https://defence.in/threads/iaf-indigeni ... shal.2016/

[Rakesh]

IAF Chief VR Chaudhari Exclusive: Chief's flying 'AVATAR' on camera । Republic Day 2024

[Rakesh]

Republic Day Special: Jai Jawan With Anil Kapoor

[Rakesh]

Jaguar IM (Serial # JM260) with the AGM-84 Harpoon AShM.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1753334527123161217?s=20 --->

[titash]

Jaguar IM (Serial # JM260) with the AGM-84 Harpoon AShM.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1753334527123161217?s=20

With the DARIN-III's E/L-2052 AESA upgrade, can ALL jaguars now carry out naval strike missions? Or are naval strike duties still restricted to the original half-squadron equipped with the Agave (and subsequently the E/L-2032)?

[Rakesh]

The Air Force is looking for a buyer for 18 Mirages
https://www.kathimerini.gr/politics/562 ... 18-mirage/

The leadership is investigating the possibility of selling them to India, a proposal about which both the Ministry of National Defense and the Maximos Palace have been informed.

[Kartik]

The Air Force is looking for a buyer for 18 Mirages
https://www.kathimerini.gr/politics/562 ... 18-mirage/

The leadership is investigating the possibility of selling them to India, a proposal about which both the Ministry of National Defense and the Maximos Palace have been informed.

Excellent! These will be very important for improving availability of the type as well as possibly adding a few more to the squadrons given that we will surely have attrition in the next 10 years. Hopefully they'll be upgraded to the Mirage-2000I std so that the IAF is flying all Mirages of the same standard.

Most interestingly, the HAF may look to sell the 24 Mirage-2000-5s as well, to finance the purchase of 6 Rafales from France. Those 24 could allow the IAF to add a squadron of Mirages at a time when the numbers are at an all time low.

[Rakesh]

They will need airframes - for this decade - to make up for the time gap before the Tejas M1A orders start filling up squadrons. If these additional airframes can make the present three squadrons (No 1, No 7 and No 9) achieve a high availability rate this decade, then go for it.

The article does mention about the HAF's Mirage 2000-5s also "likely" being sold, so we will have to see how this pans out.

[Roop]

Most interestingly, the HAF may look to sell the 24 Mirage-2000-5s as well ...

Any idea what is the state of operational readiness of these Greek Mirages?

[Rakesh]

Any idea what is the state of operational readiness of these Greek Mirages?

Active Service, still flying but used sparingly due to high maintenance costs.

[Cain Marko]

Did'nt UAE also have a bunch of Mirage 2000s? High standard too IIRC. IAF might want to grab every air worthy frame at cheapo prices of available. Just to maintain squadron strength through this decade.

[Rakesh]

Did'nt UAE also have a bunch of Mirage 2000s? High standard too IIRC. IAF might want to grab every air worthy frame at cheapo prices of available. Just to maintain squadron strength through this decade.

Yes they do and they were looking for a buyer for some of their Mirage 2000s. A number of countries had expressed interest, but no concrete sale has occurred yet.

When Prime Minister Kyriakos Mitsotakis of Greece arrives later this month, the offer of sale will be formally made to the Govt of India. Now whether Air HQ jumps at it, remains to be seen. Anything that threatens Air HQ's beloved MRFA contest, will be shunted aside

Greece is looking to offload the 18 Mirage 2000EGM/BGM airframes. These airframes were withdrawn from service a few years back. They no longer fly and if acquired will be used solely for cannibalization. However, if their Mirage 2000-5s can be acquired - for a reasonable cost - it would be great. That is 25 airframes and will be a great addition to filling up the numbers (i.e. full strength) of the three squadrons in IAF service.

The end goal is to just get over the hump for this decade, as the Tejas Mk1A production gets going. The IAF cannot afford to reduce flight hours of the existing three squadrons - due to lack of spares - as the squadron strength is already awfully low. But don't acquire aircraft just to build up the number of squadrons. At some point, the law of diminishing returns will come into play i.e. is it wise to invest money in used airframes (Mirage 2000s) versus acquiring new build aircraft (Tejas Mk1A). There is no active Mirage 2000 production line and thus keeping the airframes in service requires a lot of man hours and significant investment.

As this decade rolls along, the three Tejas production lines must eventually churn out - at minimum - 24 aircraft annually, however 32 aircraft would be even better. Because when the Tejas Mk2 gets ready, the last thing that is needed is a repetition of the Mk1 and Mk1A production saga. Air HQ must see that HAL can deliver a quality product, in sizeable numbers and on time...because that is the only way Mk2 will be acquired in triple digits.

It would be nice for Air HQ to order all 12 squadrons of the Mk2 in one go, in multiple tranches. Piecemeal orders of 40 Mk1s, 83 MK1As and 97 Mk1As helps no one. Commitment from Air HQ will go a long way. Find out if any of the OEMs - in the MRFA contest - will permit 114 MRFA to be split into two separate orders, but still have a local assembly line set up in the country. When it comes to foreign maal, will gleefully bend over for the OEM. But for local maal, will put HAL through the ringer. And they get away with this behaviour!

[Kartik]

Most interestingly, the HAF may look to sell the 24 Mirage-2000-5s as well ...

Any idea what is the state of operational readiness of these Greek Mirages?

From an AFM or Combat Aircraft article that I had read some years ago, the Mirage-2000-5s were well maintained and at the tip of the HAF spear, so to speak. They were MICA EM and IR equipped and among the most modern Mirage-2000s around. They regularly went up against TuAF F-16s for interceptions and the HAF pilots who flew them spoke very highly of the capabilities of the -5.

If they were indeed interested in selling these too, then the IAF will most likely be interested and it would be a very worthwhile purchase, if the price is right (which is very likely given that Greece and India are politically aligning as well).



BTW, maintaining these jets as well as any airworthy airframes from the Mirage-2000 EGM/BGM series with Dassault support should be possible till 2035 at least. The French Air Force signed a contract with Dassault for 14 years in 2022 for the same, covering Mirage-2000C/D/-5.

Dassault secures 14 year maintenance deal for French Air Force Mirage-2000s

[Kartik]

Did'nt UAE also have a bunch of Mirage 2000s? High standard too IIRC. IAF might want to grab every air worthy frame at cheapo prices of available. Just to maintain squadron strength through this decade.

Those may indeed also be available at some time, once the UAE starts receiving it's Rafales, from 2026-27 onwards. Given the excellent state of relations between UAE and India, it is politically feasible as well, unlike the 11 Qatari Mirage-2000-5s which the IAF was at one time interested in.

[Rakesh]

As this decade rolls along, the three Tejas production lines must eventually churn out - at minimum - 24 aircraft annually, however 32 aircraft would be even better. Because when the Tejas Mk2 gets ready, the last thing that is needed is a repetition of the Mk1 and Mk1A production saga. Air HQ must see that HAL can deliver a quality product, in sizeable numbers and on time...because that is the only way Mk2 will be acquired in triple digits.

viewtopic.php?p=2613051#p2613051

[VinodTK]

StratNewsGlobal: The Indian Air Force & The China, Pakistan Two-Front Ladakh Threat: Leh AF Station AoC Interview

How is the Indian Air Force dealing with the two-front China and Pakistan threat in Ladakh? “The way to deal with these two fronts is by better tactics, by better deployments”, Air Commodore D.S. Handa, Air Officer Commanding (AoC), Air Force Station (AFS) Leh says. In this exclusive interview, in front of a Mig-29, at the AFS, to StratNews Global’s Amitabh P. Revi, he adds, “In this mountainous terrain, we have to know what are the avenues of approach that the enemy can take, what are those critical locations where we can deploy our radars, where we can deploy our assets, where we can deploy our surface to air guided weapons systems (SAGW). So that if there is any threat in future, we can first of all pick them up in time and then respond to them in time. And rest assured they are deployed at these locations”

[Tanaji]

With the outbreak of hostilities especially with China, it is to be expected that our bases will come under massive cruise missile attacks followed up by drone attacks. Obviously the air force knows this. It is hard to counter these attacks effectively: so how does the air force plan to operate in such an environment? What practical measures do they take? Not looking for any secret information obviously, just curious at a high level what they would do?

[srai]

^^^
Early warning radars and sensors

Assets dispersal (spread and depth)

Hardened Shelters

Anti-drone jammers

Sudarshan 40mm CIWS -> anti-drone
VSHORAD -> anti-drone / anti-cruise
Akash 1/1S/NG -> anti-cruise

In future, Anti-drone lasers

Requires continual mass production and build-up of reserves.

[Prem Kumar]

How is the Indian Air Force dealing with the two-front China and Pakistan threat in Ladakh? “The way to deal with these two fronts is by better tactics, by better deployments”, Air Commodore D.S. Handa, Air Officer Commanding (AoC), Air Force Station (AFS) Leh says. In this exclusive interview, in front of a Mig-29, at the AFS, to StratNews Global’s Amitabh P. Revi, he adds, “In this mountainous terrain, we have to know what are the avenues of approach that the enemy can take, what are those critical locations where we can deploy our radars, where we can deploy our assets, where we can deploy our surface to air guided weapons systems (SAGW). So that if there is any threat in future, we can first of all pick them up in time and then respond to them in time. And rest assured they are deployed at these locations”

Translation of bolded part: we don't have enough squadrons. Rather than fix the fundamental problem (lack of vision, lack of planning, import-pasand etc), we will continue doing jugaad and call it tactics. And hope that the pilots save the day!

[drnayar]

Translation of bolded part: we don't have enough squadrons. Rather than fix the fundamental problem (lack of vision, lack of planning, import-pasand etc), we will continue doing jugaad and call it tactics. And hope that the pilots save the day!

There is no quick fix anyway..it will be more likely a decade before it reaches the requisitioned strength of 42 but then again i wonder how this number is 42 ? .. given that the doctrine based on 42 is decades old ?!! .. or am i wrong ?

[srai]

The only way IAF will reach 42 squadrons as early as possible (and without breaking the bank) is by mass production of LCA Tejas Mk1 series.

Over the next 10 years (2025-2035), produce 20 squadrons worth of it. Two squadrons a year at 36/year production rate.

Based on recent 83 (4 squadrons) Mk1A deal of around $5 billion, it would cost around $25 billion. This is inclusive of spares/ground support package.

Then after 2035, mass production of MWF and AMCA.

[Rakesh]

The only way mass production of the Tejas will ever enter service with the IAF, is if the power plant is also Indian in origin. This is (one of) the reason why the MRFA contest still exists and is why a non-American fighter will end up winning.

Get an Indian turbofan and the whole game plan will change. It is for this reason why Air HQ is insisting on a locally developed turbofan for AMCA Mk2.

[srai]

License production of F-404 in India.

If waiting for Indian engine before mass production, then looking at 2040s.

[Brad Goodman]

Is 42 number for manned aircrafts only? I have a feeling once Ghataks and similar platforms comeonline then every 42 is too low a number.

[Rakesh]

Qatar and tsp are same friendship wise. We have more chance of China selling us j31 than Qatar selling us M2k.
Please can we have some mature conversation.

^^^^^^^^^
Thank you Fanne for introducing a dose of realism here..

Qatar is holding 8 veterans hostage, and we have people bloviating here about sourcing M 2000s from there...

Gentlemen, all 8 veterans are now free ---> viewtopic.php?p=2613236#p2613236

Qatari Mirages are fair game now Especially in light of this ---> viewtopic.php?p=2613209#p2613209

I am not saying it will happen or that the IAF must purchase these fighters, but I said previously on 10 Jan 2024....

Please do not equate the present fate of our 8 naval veterans in Qatar - that are being held hostage - with other issues between the two countries. When the death sentence was imposed, who knew that the death sentence would then get negated to life imprisonment? Tomorrow, even the life imprisonment could be vacated. This issue - which is obviously very important to India - will run parallel to other issues, including military personnel exchanges, military exercises and more. Tying relations to a single issue is not how geopolitics work. This is how Pakistanis think (i.e. Kashmir) and we know how that has worked out for them.

Also This ---> viewtopic.php?p=2612939#p2612939

[Manish_P]

Gentlemen, all 8 veterans are now free ---> viewtopic.php?p=2613236#p2613236

Qatari Mirages are fair game now Especially in light of this ---> viewtopic.php?p=2613209#p2613209
...

Wonder what price the Qataris have extracted from us for letting the 8 personnel go...

I know the Mirages are fine birds and the second hand ones are probably for their parts to keep ours flying but I rather we just go for the Rafales

[Prem Kumar]

Wonder what price the Qataris have extracted from us for letting the 8 personnel go...

We signed a 24 year, multi-Billion-$$ deal with Qatar to purchase Natural Gas from them. I am sure this played a big part in the negotiations

To be fair to our side though, we got very favorable prices for the Gas because Qatar was desperate - due to US entry into the market as a supplier. We seem to have played some hardball and saved something like $5 Billion. Looks like a win-win engagement

I wish some Al Jazeera castration was also negotiated as part of the deal, but I think that'd be too much to ask for - the Overton Window is not there yet for our Govt to consider it

[Manish_P]

Wonder what price the Qataris have extracted from us for letting the 8 personnel go...

We signed a 24 year, multi-Billion-$$ deal with Qatar to purchase Natural Gas from them. I am sure this played a big part in the negotiations

..

Oh yes. I didn't think about that connection. Though i suspect the Qataris will just have hugely increased the price of the mirages.

Recent news was that Indonesia scrapped plans to buy the Mirages. Looks like they were told that another Customer is paying a much larger amount. We will know soon i guess.

[Rakesh]

Oh yes. I didn't think about that connection. Though i suspect the Qataris will just have hugely increased the price of the mirages.

Recent news was that Indonesia scrapped plans to buy the Mirages. Looks like they were told that another Customer is paying a much larger amount. We will know soon i guess.

Perhaps it is the Tehreek-e-Insaf who is offering a much larger amount

Full blown civil war will spill over in Pakistan, with General Asim Munir going scorched earth on Imran Khan and his supporters. Imm the Dim will need some phyters of his own to shoot down the TFTA pilots of the PAF.

[TVenky]

Jaguar IM (Serial # JM260) with the AGM-84 Harpoon AShM.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1753334527123161217?s=20 --->

Can't these Jags carry more firepower ?..
with just 1 Harpoon, it seems to be too lightly loaded..

[Rakesh]

Jaguar IM (Serial # JM260) with the AGM-84 Harpoon AShM.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1753334527123161217?s=20 --->

Can't these Jags carry more firepower ?..
with just 1 Harpoon, it seems to be too lightly loaded..

Please do not repost pictures when replying. Many users are on mobile phones.

One Harpoon is likely all these Jaguars will carry.

[Rakesh]

This video was published around Republic Day last month. I just came across it, so posting.

Atul Chandra interview with Air Marshal SP Dharkar AOC-in-C Eastern Air Command, Indian Air Force

[titash]

Can't these Jags carry more firepower ?..
with just 1 Harpoon, it seems to be too lightly loaded..

Please do not repost pictures when replying. Many users are on mobile phones.

One Harpoon is likely all these Jaguars will carry.

For comparison:
1) Jaguar is a small bird + can carry 1 Harpoon with MTOW of 16,000 Kg
2) F-18 C/D Hornet is a medium bird + can carry 2 Harpoons with MTOW of 23500 Kg
3) F-18 E/F Super Hornet is a big bird + can carry 4 Harpoons with MTOW of 30,000 Kg