Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

srai · Post by **srai** » 06 Oct 2023 03:00

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The bird is too small to carry a supersonic anti-ship missile,
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S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 06 Oct 2023 04:50

Leave something for the Sukhois to do !! I guess Mk2 too will take over from there ..
Now my extra requirement for HQ is to have a Tejas acrobatic team like Thunderbirds …

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 06 Oct 2023 07:42

ashishvikas wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 23:37 ^^ let Anti Ship role taken care by Su30 with BrahMos before Naval Rafale & TEDBF comes.

Tejas is already going to do many roles which was not expected when it was visualized as a Interceptor Mig21 replacement.

The advantage of an indigenous platform. You can develop it into any role you will have to perform.

If the munition is within the payload capacity of the platform. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 06 Oct 2023 18:45

LT-5202

https://twitter.com/officialTatya_1/sta ... vsnsg&s=19

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Oct 2023 18:57

ashishvikas wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 18:45 LT-5202

https://twitter.com/officialTatya_1/sta ... vsnsg&s=19

So we can confirm it flew on 05 Oct 2023? If so, I will update the first page. Please advise.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Oct 2023 19:10

HAL hands over first Tejas trainer to IAF
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ner-to-iaf
05 Oct 2023

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2023 21:32

Rakesh wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 19:10 HAL hands over first Tejas trainer to IAF
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... ner-to-iaf
05 Oct 2023

...The handover comes six months after the first production trainer (serial no LT-5201) began flight trials in April 2023. According to HAL, the LT-5201 was handed over to the IAF on the afternoon of 4 October.
...
An HAL source told Janes that the aircraft will be subject to modifications and additions after entering IAF service, such as adding an in-flight refuelling probe. “The avionics in the trainers are the same as the [full operational capability] FOC [single-seat] Tejas,” the source said.

A second Tejas trainer aircraft (serial no LT-5202) is likely being prepared for handover to the IAF in the near future. HAL said the production of the other trainers of this order is close to completion. Janes understands that two additional Tejas trainers from the contract could be handed over to the IAF later in 2023 or in early 2024.

If it takes six months after flight trials makes sense to deliver by early 2024.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Oct 2023 21:38

But why 6 months? Maybe because it was first serial trainer produced and needed extensive testing? Perhaps later ones will be fast? I believe we are advanced enough in our manufacturing process that each aircraft is almost 99.999% copy of other (in earlier days, each Mig 21s etc (or was it Canberras) were different enough that you cannot swap parts before machining little bit).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Oct 2023 21:48

The bird has to be put through paces and run lots of tests.
Even in US every plane will have a Mfg book that follows it.
No such thing as a copy.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Oct 2023 21:48

There is also a trainer manufacturing facility with some 3 or 4 planes a year. Maybe that will be churning these planes. Once Mig 21 is gone, and lateral movement of fighter pilot reaches a tipping level, fresh pilots would be joining LCA squadrons first (currently you have experienced pilots, so simulator training maybe sufficient) and you would need more trainers.
Trainers numbers have been projected as 4 per squadron by youtube enthusiast. Historically, 20 plane sq of IAF hd 16 planes (4*4 ship formations), 2 as attrition/maintenance reserve and two trainers. So for 10 LCA MK1/1A sq you will need 20 trainers. Then you will need a centralised squadron like MOFTU for conversion (perhaps to be done by LIFT LCAs) - You will need additional anything from 20-60 trainers for that. I would assume, Mig21 from MOFTU will get retired (and called TOFTU - Tejas operational flying training unit).
Not sure if they can be used as trainers from LCA MK2. LCAMK2 will have side stick (while Tejas MK1 have central stick) and one large area display. I would assume you will need some trainers for that and LCMK1 pilots will move to MK2 (i.e. MK2 will have few direct entry).

All in all, we would need decent number of trainers. Good to keep them 'fighting' fit so that they can come in handy for unmanned teaming.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Oct 2023 22:24

@ fanne: as aircraft get more complex (and more expensive to operate), air forces will rely on a large portion of training on simulators. By the time they get to a twin seat trainer or even their first solo flight, they will have enough muscle memory to know every switch and button in the cockpit. In the IAF, they conduct a blind fold test of all rookie pilots. They have to identify all vital switches and buttons in the cockpit, with their eyes closed. One main reason for that is if the canopy is damaged (causing visual impairment), they should be able to still operate the aircraft safely (for landing).

That actually happened on an IAF MiG-29 - a story which was documented in India's Most Fearless 2 by Shiv Aroor and Rahul Singh. Check this out ---> https://www.livefistdefence.com/how-a-h ... ed-mig-29/

Twin seat aircraft - while still a valuable tool for training - are now largely relegated for certain strike missions that will require a WSO in the back seat. Titash also alluded to the Wingman drones, which will likely require a WSO as well.

P.S. Remember, there is no twin seater F-22 or F-35, both aircraft that are more technologically advanced that the Tejas. Those pilots are training on 100% simulators. You have to be super confident in your first flight on either aircraft. Same with the Rafale M of the French Navy.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 06 Oct 2023 23:14

The catch is that, pilots transitioning to F-22 or F-35 (or in our case Tejas MK1), already have 1000s of hours on other aircraft. They are experienced. They can pick thing in simulator. At some point, Tejas MK1 will be our entry plane (after say Mig 21, Jags and m2k,m29 are retired). There just a fresh, out of the academy, 21 old year flight lieutenant, you would want to give him training time on 2 seaters (even though he would have trained on Sitara, IJT, Hawks etc.). I am just using logic here. I have no experience or expertise in the area. Maybe you can train a pilot fully in sims.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Oct 2023 23:34

By the time a rookie pilot gets to an actual frontline fighter aircraft, he/she has completed through the following stages at the Air Force Academy ---> BTA (Basic Trainer Aircraft) ---> IJT (Intermediate Jet Trainer) ---> Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT).

No pilot learns about the basic laws of flight on a frontline fighter. That is all taken care of in the previous stages. Candidates who are not able to make it are weeded out at these stages. The only thing a young pilot - when he joins a fighter squadron - is required to do, is to complete the training syllabus on that aircraft type. So whether it is Su-30MKI, Jaguar, F-22, F-35, Rafale or whatever....if you have reached a frontline fighter squadron, you are fully comfortable with flying a supersonic fighter aircraft. Do not mistake conversion training for aircraft flying training. They are apples and oranges.

So the IAF now takes rookie pilots (who have completed their flight training at the Air Force Academy) and puts them directly onto the latest frontline fighter aircraft. There are videos confirming that this practice occurs on the Su-30MKI and even the Rafale. The experienced pilots in the squadron hand-hold the young pilots and ensure that they complete their syllabus. Each rookie pilot is assigned a particular instructor and learns about the type, largely from that instructor. This is done to create that sense of camaraderie/bond between the instructor and the rookie.

There will be significant Tejas simulator training to cater for cockpit familiarization/conversion training. The twin seaters will also be used, but there will be more trainig emphasis on the simulator versus the actual aircraft. This results in less wear & tear on the airframe, less flying cost incurred (annually) and significantly reduced chances of airframe crashes (due to pilot error). Inherently safer to make errors on simulators versus actual aircraft. A keen instructor will soon realise which rookie will make it versus who will not.

Imagine what a rookie Rafale M pilot will do, when he has to conduct his first trap on INS Vikrant OR conduct his first ski jump take off from INS Vikrant. There is no instructor in the backseat, to tell him what to do or correct his mistakes (in flight). He is all on his own. It is sink or swim for that pilot. His/Her instructor will equally be tense for obvious reasons. Same story with F-35B pilots of the US Marine Corps, Royal Navy and F-35C pilots of the US Navy. This is all simulator training. The SOPs - for every conceivable scenario - is drilled into their head via hours upon hours of simulator and instructor training.

P.S. Even transport aircraft - placid flight profile when compared to fighter aircraft that do 9G twists and turns - in the IAF now have simulator training. The newest transport induction - the C-295 - has a simulator facility.

VishnuS · Post by **VishnuS** » 08 Oct 2023 01:13

Cyrano wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 15:51
VishnuS wrote: ↑05 Oct 2023 09:06

The second person need not be another pilot, he could be a WSO!
WSOs aren't pilots? I always thought is a bit of a specialisation for already type trained pilots, like on sukhois for ex. WSOs are supposed to be capable of independently completing a mission or at least flying back to base and landing safely in case the flying pilot is incapacitated for whatever reason, no?

Plus, the 2 cockpits of the LCA trainer I suspect are not configured like the Su30 cockpits which have these differentiated roles as part of design parameters.

Why risk 2 pilots for GA when a scooter motor UAV like Garan or whatever can do the job in many GA situations, as it was amply demonstrated in Ukraine? Recent news reports mentioned that Iran has successfully tested such a UAV bomb of 2000 km range to destroy a naval target at sea.

I'd like to see us coming up with our own version of Hero motors powered UAVs that can be launched from any unmarked container truck/small ship. There is nothing Pakis or Cheenis can do against these tiny bug-gers !

Technically speaking WSO are not pilots!

They do have pilot training and they can land the plane when the pilot is injured.

But they don't get full fledged pilot training because the plane ages quickly.

Whatever you said on using UAVs is correct, no denying that.

When we run out of fighters and want to use these trainers during war, we can take Sukhoi WSOs in Tejas trainers to do missions along with other fighters! Honestly, it means we'd be using every fighter in our arsenal! I hope it doesn't have to come to that!

pravula · Post by **pravula** » 08 Oct 2023 01:14

I meant to imply humans.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 08 Oct 2023 01:48

It will never come to that, we aren't making some stuff for Diwali crackers as some gentleman quipped.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 09 Oct 2023 18:11

LT-5204 : under construction, not sure of date.

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/india-tod ... 2023-10-08

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Oct 2023 18:15

Beautiful Ashish Saar. Thank You.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Oct 2023 18:37

VIDEO: https://x.com/GEIndia/status/1710921755727172041?s=20 ---> Wishing the Indian Air Force (IAF) a glorious 91st anniversary. Touch the sky with glory! We are proud that the GE F404 engine powers the LCA Tejas Mk1 flown by the IAF to keep Indian skies safe.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 11 Oct 2023 20:43

fanne wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 21:48 There is also a trainer manufacturing facility with some 3 or 4 planes a year. Maybe that will be churning these planes. Once Mig 21 is gone, and lateral movement of fighter pilot reaches a tipping level, fresh pilots would be joining LCA squadrons first (currently you have experienced pilots, so simulator training maybe sufficient) and you would need more trainers.
Trainers numbers have been projected as 4 per squadron by youtube enthusiast. Historically, 20 plane sq of IAF hd 16 planes (4*4 ship formations), 2 as attrition/maintenance reserve and two trainers. So for 10 LCA MK1/1A sq you will need 20 trainers. Then you will need a centralised squadron like MOFTU for conversion (perhaps to be done by LIFT LCAs) - You will need additional anything from 20-60 trainers for that. I would assume, Mig21 from MOFTU will get retired (and called TOFTU - Tejas operational flying training unit).
Not sure if they can be used as trainers from LCA MK2. LCAMK2 will have side stick (while Tejas MK1 have central stick) and one large area display. I would assume you will need some trainers for that and LCMK1 pilots will move to MK2 (i.e. MK2 will have few direct entry).

All in all, we would need decent number of trainers. Good to keep them 'fighting' fit so that they can come in handy for unmanned teaming.

MOFTU was disbanded quite some time back, IIRC. If memory serves me right, it is well over a decade since the unit was disbanded. Also the composition of a squadron is 16+2 attrition reserves, not 18+2 attrition reserves.
AFAIK, Operational conversion is now handled by one dedicated squadron where all the "rookies" of a type a posted and get trained on it. No. 20 or No 30 squadron currently serves as the OCU for the Rambhas, as an example. So a similar concept may be implemented for Tejas as well, with either the No 45 squadron or No 18 squadron taking up that mantle. They might get some additional airframes if so, around 20-22 over all.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Oct 2023 21:43

I am also saying the same. There could be 1-2 squadron with just 2 seaters for conversion plus lift training. We have 18 LCA 2 seater on order, we may need another 20-40 (if all our rookies get additional LIFT training then 40) double seaters.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 12 Oct 2023 00:32

fanne wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 21:43 I am also saying the same. There could be 1-2 squadron with just 2 seaters for conversion plus lift training. We have 18 LCA 2 seater on order, we may need another 20-40 (if all our rookies get additional LIFT training then 40) double seaters.

That's not what I am saying, fanne ji. It won't be a dedicated trainer squadron. It will be a regular squadron with additional airframes. For eg, if No 45 squadron were to become the OCU, they would have additional airframes allocated to them taking their total inventory 20-24 airframes with associated manpower allocation. Their won't be a dedicated squadron stood up with just the twin seaters.

BenG · Post by **BenG** » 12 Oct 2023 05:48

fanne wrote: ↑11 Oct 2023 21:43 I am also saying the same. There could be 1-2 squadron with just 2 seaters for conversion plus lift training. We have 18 LCA 2 seater on order, we may need another 20-40 (if all our rookies get additional LIFT training then 40) double seaters.

It makes sense to have a couple of dedicated trainer squadrons housed in one location. Makes setting up logistics way easier. The time to decide for that is now. The forward deployed LCAs can all be singe-seaters. Front-line fighters will need less documentation and training for maintenance crew. Easy to train and maintain especially with the mk1a variants. The twin-seaters probably are not going to get mk1a variants. They already have such improvements hopefully. So it makes sense to have some sort of standardization in terms of location for both singe-seaters and twin-seaters. IAF better decide it today before they decide on the next batch orders. And hopefully not take 4 more years.

prashantsharma · Post by **prashantsharma** » 02 Nov 2023 09:31

Even it you have an OCU, the regular sqns will still need trainers for IR rating checks, AEB categorization checks and DASI inspections, and sometimes even remedial training of qualified pilots.
Likewise OCUs also require single seaters.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Nov 2023 14:38

prashantsharma wrote: ↑02 Nov 2023 09:31 Even it you have an OCU, the regular sqns will still need trainers for IR rating checks, AEB categorization checks and DASI inspections, and sometimes even remedial training of qualified pilots.
Likewise OCUs also require single seaters.

Can't this be done with simulators? How do USAF do it with F-22 and F-35, or French Navy with Ralale-M?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Nov 2023 18:48

I can see LT-5203 at the left in the photo (in yellow primer). The other Tejas trainer (LT-5204 ?) is in the background, behind the canopy.

By the way, even though the second twitter link states, "...second and third Tejas trainers...", it should be third and fourth, as LT-5202 is already painted in Tipnis Grey ---> viewtopic.php?p=2603768#p2603768

And LT-5201 was officially handed over to the IAF on 04 Oct 2023 ---> viewtopic.php?p=2603499#p2603499

https://x.com/KDanishAli/status/1719716 ... 89748?s=20 --> As member of the standing committee on Defence today, I visited Bangalore and had Discussion with representatives of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on the subject "Modernization of Defence Public Sector Undertakings”.

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/171 ... 51743?s=20 ---> Second and Third Serial Production Tejas Trainers.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 02 Nov 2023 18:53

The plane he is sitting in is LT-5202.
If you zoom in, we can see SPT-02 written on it.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Nov 2023 18:54

LakshmanPST wrote: ↑02 Nov 2023 18:53 The plane he is sitting in is LT-5202.
If you zoom in, we can see SPT-02 written on it.

You beat me to it

See below....

Rakesh wrote: ↑02 Nov 2023 18:48By the way, even though the second twitter link states, "...second and third Tejas trainers...", it should be third and fourth, as LT-5202 is already painted in Tipnis Grey ---> viewtopic.php?p=2603768#p2603768

And Kunwar Danish Ali, Member of Parliament is sitting in LT-5202....

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/17 ... 17485?s=20 --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 04 Nov 2023 16:10

Rakesh wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 18:57
ashishvikas wrote: ↑06 Oct 2023 18:45 LT-5202

https://twitter.com/officialTatya_1/sta ... vsnsg&s=19
So we can confirm it flew on 05 Oct 2023? If so, I will update the first page. Please advise.

So LT-5202 has indeed had her first flight on 05 Oct 2023. Page 1 of this thread has been updated. Just missing the names of the pilots who flew her.

https://x.com/hvtiaf/status/17098255926 ... Tymk2TdEXQ

This is getting harder to track as time goes by. Tejas flights are becoming so routine now, it does not even register in the mainstream news any more. I doubt I will be able to do this in the Mk1A thread. I don’t think it would be wise either. Will track whatever news is available about the Mk1A i.e. squadron unit number, squadron name, squadron raising date, squadron raising CO, etc.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 04:16

https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1722238468745736287?s=20 ---> The IAF's indigenous LCA Tejas aircraft and the Sarang Helicopter Display Team are set to dazzle audiences at the Dubai Air Show.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 04:24

Rakesh wrote: ↑09 Nov 2023 04:16 https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1722238468745736287?s=20 ---> The IAF's indigenous LCA Tejas aircraft and the Sarang Helicopter Display Team are set to dazzle audiences at the Dubai Air Show.

Don't know how true this is, but FWIW...

https://x.com/Geopolitics360/status/172 ... 25506?s=20 ---> Pakistan Air Force requests UAE to keep large time gap in aerial displays of Chinese JF-17 and Indian Tejas at Dubai airshow, as India announces that Tejas will participate in aerial displays at Dubai along with ALH.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 04:26

Rakesh wrote: ↑09 Nov 2023 04:16 https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1722238468745736287?s=20 ---> The IAF's indigenous LCA Tejas aircraft and the Sarang Helicopter Display Team are set to dazzle audiences at the Dubai Air Show.

IAF contingent inducted for the Dubai Air Show 2023
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1975743
08 Nov 2023

Fighter Jet Tejas, Chopper Dhruv To Take Part In Dubai Airshow
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/fighter ... ow-4557972
08 Nov 2023

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 09 Nov 2023 21:11

https://x.com/iamward0g/status/1720021118411805032?s=20 --->

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2023 03:35

Rakesh and lurkers, I was asked a question about the GE engine.

Does it have engine sensors that transmit data to GE and is that legit usage for a combat fighter plane?
What steps does IAF take to prevent e-monitoring the plane?

bala · Post by **bala** » 10 Nov 2023 03:57

ramana wrote: ↑10 Nov 2023 03:35 Rakesh and lurkers, I was asked a question about the GE engine.

Does it have engine sensors that transmit data to GE and is that legit usage for a combat fighter plane?
What steps does IAF take to prevent e-monitoring the plane?

Ramana all GE turbines gather data and it is processed by GE at their San Ramon, CA center which does Big Data processing. The main reason they collect is to provide GE with data for impending failure of parts. GE actually sells insurance coverage for all its turbines. This justifies their cost for big data processing since there are reams and reams of data collected. Airlines are happy to do such deals since the entire maintenance cycle of aircraft engine is taken care of. Some power turbines in remote location need to be scheduled properly (ops research) for timely replacement of worn parts.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2023 09:04

More than the US government playing tricks. This appears to be a case of the GE not being able to diliver to Indian requirements.

Regardless of cause. It makes the case for an indigenous jet engine even stronger.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 11 Nov 2023 10:05

IAF to deploy LCA at frontline fighter bases in western sector
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 17543.html
11 Nov 2023

An LCA-Mk 1 squadron based at Sulur in Tamil Nadu is set to be relocated to a frontline fighter base in Gujarat, while the first LCA Mk-1A squadron will be raised at an air base in Rajasthan.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 11 Nov 2023 23:17

I guess the Gujarat base is Naliya for Mk1...
The Rajasthan base will probably be one of the existing MIG21 squadrons in Bikaner or Suratgarh converted to Mk1A...

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 14 Nov 2023 03:17

If anyone gets hold of the Dubai Airshow video then please post here.

bharathp · Post by **bharathp** » 14 Nov 2023 07:19

https://www.dubaiairshow.aero/flying-display-programme

Tejas display is going right before the jay yeff 17 dispaly