Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Pratyush]

HAL has assembly lines at Nashik that need to be utilized, along with a large workforce that is now mostly working on Su-30MKI overhaul and repair but is not fully being utilized. With the Su-30MKI upgrade to come up soon, that too will begin at HAL Nashik and the entire workforce will be busy.

HAL Bangalore has limited space and earlier assembly lines (Kiran hangar, Hawk assembly line) were all repurposed to be used as Tejas assembly lines in addition to the one dedicated Tejas assembly line that existed. That is how they got to 8 + 8 in Bangalore.

HAL Nashik's assembly line allows for some level of risk reduction in case something stalls or delays the assembly lines at Bangalore.

The argument about the line at Nashik being utilised is accepted.

However, if something stalls production in Bangalore. Then how can we be assured that whatever is effecting Bangalore, will not effect Nashik.

[Prem Kumar]

What is the *potential* capacity for each line? Is it just 8 or is it limited to 8 because of the order size?

Because 8 per line per year seems anemic

Granted, HAL is no Lockheed Martin, but the rollout rate of F-35s in Fort Worth is 184 per year

[basant]

What is the *potential* capacity for each line? Is it just 8 or is it limited to 8 because of the order size?

Because 8 per line per year seems anemic

Granted, HAL is no Lockheed Martin, but the rollout rate of F-35s in Fort Worth is 184 per year

About 3,000 F-35s are ordered and 184/yr is achieved. For 83, I think the proportion will be 4.98/yr. In other words, LM is no HAL.

Dassault has delivered or holds order for 450+ Rafales. It's production rate is 14/yr. Dassault is no HAL.

[Prem Kumar]

I already mentioned order size. I know its a factor

What I wanted to know was the practical capacity of these lines, given a large enough order

[basant]

From whatever I read, it is 8.

[Pratyush]

I already mentioned order size. I know its a factor

What I wanted to know was the practical capacity of these lines, given a large enough order

Currently that is 8 aircraft per annum per existing line.

It may be possible to increase the same by increasing the % prefabricated components at the subcomponent sub assembly stage.

So that the line at HAL is only plugging the wiring and harness and Bolting/ Riveting the structural elements. Reducing the man hours required for completing the aircraft.

If you can reduce the man hours per aircraft by 50%. You should be able to double the production at each line.

But that will also require orders in quantities, that justify such outsourcing.

[Kartik]

HAL has assembly lines at Nashik that need to be utilized, along with a large workforce that is now mostly working on Su-30MKI overhaul and repair but is not fully being utilized. With the Su-30MKI upgrade to come up soon, that too will begin at HAL Nashik and the entire workforce will be busy.

HAL Bangalore has limited space and earlier assembly lines (Kiran hangar, Hawk assembly line) were all repurposed to be used as Tejas assembly lines in addition to the one dedicated Tejas assembly line that existed. That is how they got to 8 + 8 in Bangalore.

HAL Nashik's assembly line allows for some level of risk reduction in case something stalls or delays the assembly lines at Bangalore.

The argument about the line at Nashik being utilised is accepted.

However, if something stalls production in Bangalore. Then how can we be assured that whatever is effecting Bangalore, will not effect Nashik.

It could be political unrest, strikes, bandh, what not. One can't say for sure what the disruptive incidents may be.

If HAL's suppliers are distributed, outside of one centralized location, who then have to supply their parts/ assemblies to the HAL divisions for assembly, then having these multiple locations for assembly lines is not inefficient.

It also may allow for Tejas MRO to be developed outside of Bangalore, which is now where all of it is done. HAL Nashik is more centrally located, closer to the South Western and Northern air bases where Tejas fighters will be based in the future.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1729009992722964858?s=20 ---> Indigenous Tejas fighter flying high! Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd needs to majorly step-up its annual production rate — from the existing 8 jets to 16 and then 24 per year — in double quick time while ensuring proper quality control. Edit in @timesofindia

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1729009992722964858?s=20 ---> Indigenous Tejas fighter flying high! Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd needs to majorly step-up its annual production rate — from the existing 8 jets to 16 and then 24 per year — in double quick time while ensuring proper quality control. Edit in @timesofindia

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1729 ... 12346?s=20 ---> All this stuff about improving this & that without actual orders in hand is inaccurate. For those who've tracked this program for eons, supplier stories abound. One firm almost went under as they patriotically supported the Tejas. Bottomline, actual orders = better supply chain.

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17294 ... 17971?s=20 ---> I will say this openly because many cannot.

Tejas stands on the patriotism of the suppliers. They did not make money from the program. The uncertainty and actual orders killed most.

Those who survived, survive as suppliers to the global supply chain of other aerospace majors.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1729009992722964858?s=20 ---> Indigenous Tejas fighter flying high! Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd needs to majorly step-up its annual production rate — from the existing 8 jets to 16 and then 24 per year — in double quick time while ensuring proper quality control. Edit in @timesofindia

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 69354?s=20 ---> This is not that difficult to understand. But I have heard it repeated for decades.

Increasing production rate come at *significant* upfront cost. Unless, you can amortize that cost over long runs, your per aircraft cost will be exorbitantly high.

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 24?s=20---> Here are some thumb rules.

1. Nobody sets up a line which will have an production run of less than 8 aircraft per year and 5 years at that rate. Nobody.

2. It takes at least 2-3 years to stabilize a line and deliver first aircrafts.

So, does it make sense to have a production rate of 24 aircrafts/year?

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 17832?s=20 ---> It's only us who;

1. Order 20 aircraft
2. Expect a world-class assembly line to produce 8 aircraft year
3. Let the line run dry
4. Then order 20 more aircraft
5. Then let the line run dry
6. Then order 84 aircraft
7. Expect 3 lines producing 8 aircraft each.

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 71128?s=20 ---> And the funny thing is that HAL agrees!

I have yet to see picture of high exec with a straight back in front of the mai-baaps.

Ridiculous timelines and production rates follow.

Whose-fathers-what-goes?

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 80355?s=20 ---> And it is not just for LCA. Look at our submarines, look at our destroyers, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery guns.

Is there any technically intensive project sans this bane?

How do we dream to keep the Chinese at bay who keep pumping out ships and aircrafts like hot cakes.

[bala]

An Indian airforce perspective on the Tejas Fighter by Air Marshal GS Bedi. Good explanation of stability, redundancy, digital control by the Air Marshal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZaaVPP_F-8

Highlights for Tejas:

1. tailess delta wing
2. Fly-by-wire is Indian completely
3. High usage of Composites
4. High maneuverability of the craft
5. total Indian recipe. pride in flying your own aircraft.
6. good orders by IAF for HAL

Some appreciation for aircraft engine complexity and hopeful of Kaveri flying eventually. There is good potential of export.

I hope the IAF people look anew after the success of Tejas and involve themselves whole-heartedly to create more aircrafts in India, which meets their needs. If you look at the inventory of Indian Navy, most of its ships, submarines are india created and made. That is the goal for the entire armed forces of India - Pride in India created and made.

[Neela]

Deal To Acquire 97 More Tejas Aircraft, 156 Prachand Attack Choppers Cleared

[Neela]

https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 71128?s=20 ---> And the funny thing is that HAL agrees!
I have yet to see picture of high exec with a straight back in front of the mai-baaps.
Ridiculous timelines and production rates follow.
Whose-fathers-what-goes?
https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/17293 ... 80355?s=20 ---> And it is not just for LCA. Look at our submarines, look at our destroyers, aircraft carriers, tanks, artillery guns.
Is there any technically intensive project sans this bane?
How do we dream to keep the Chinese at bay who keep pumping out ships and aircrafts like hot cakes.

I understand the frustration here. One must also note that GoI is also a equity stakeholder in HAL. So whose-father-what-goes comes at the expense of the taxpayer. But compared to 20 years ago, look at where we stand. It is definitely progress from "3 legged cheetah" and indifference. But going even earlier, A lot of folk underestimate the rot in the bureaucracy at military, legislative and executive levels. When you have 50 years of imports, a culture of backscratching, deals, disparaging remarks on our own capabilities, with corruption normalized ( Remember the Romanian guy and his GF who got access to South Block) , the mold is the lebensraum. You cannot come out of it. "You want this gear- where do we import from ?" - that will be typical normalized thinking and nothing would have been wrong with that in the context of those time. That is, until you have a Parrikar and an arm of the govt with enough power to break it. This is not a 2 hour movie which will have a happy ending. It takes time.
The window will shift. Egos will bloat when you have foreign dignitaries visit defence facilities like Brahmos. Plus, the money to be made by Pvt companies will push the needle . Defence folk will be roped in inside indian industries. The soft skills, relationships needed with executive and legislative will definately be nurtured by our own companies. Bit by bit , influence will grow. you will see Indian companies starting to see themselves as big players. We need a few more mega wins for local products. And n export deal that crosses $1B will start a major frenzy.
Trust me, in 30 years , we will have a different problem of Indian companies blacklisted for corruption.

[Rakesh]

Thank You for the above post Neela. Well said.

[Rakesh]

India To Hike Tejas Mk1A Fighter Order To 180
https://www.livefistdefence.com/india-t ... er-to-180/
30 November 2023

[konaseema]

Time for Lungi Dance?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69CEiHfS_mc

[Prem Kumar]

*Cross posting from the R&D thread*

Its only AoN, but a BIG DAY for Atmanirbhar today

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1981135

1) 156 Prachand
2) 97 Tejas Mk1A
3) Su-30 MKI upgrade
4) Area Denial Munition (ADM) Type-2 & 3 (no idea what this is?)
5) Towed Gun System. Presumably, this is the new version that will replace ATAGS. No numbers are mentioned
6) Automatic Target Tracker & Digital Ballistic Computer for T-90s
7) MRAShM (Medium Range Anti Ship Missile) for the Indian Navy. Is it NASM-MR?
8 ) DAP 2020 - all procurements to have minimum 50% Indian content, excepting annual maintenance

[sanjayc]

Crap from Economist - apparently Tejas is a folly and disdained by Indian pilots

Narendra Modi is remaking India’s 1.4m strong military

The jet is 20 years behind schedule, underpowered, and disdained by Indian pilots.
Follies like the Tejas make it easy to be pessimistic.
drdo describes the Tejas as a “spectacular aviation triumph”. Most Indian pilots would keel over laughing at this

https://www.economist.com/asia/2023/11/ ... g-military

[fanne]

Bechare ki jali huyee hai, bahut dukh me hain

[Rakesh]

Crap from Economist - apparently Tejas is a folly and disdained by Indian pilots

Saar, please do not post this worthless diatribe on this forum. Will waste pages upon pages discussing this to death.

Each time, a Tejas order comes through...some dude will chime in, claiming why the Tejas is bad.

These folks are a weird breed! We have some on this forum....remember the SE thread?

[Rakesh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GAMhT5yWUAA ... ame=medium --->

[Pratyush]

For a certain category of Indians, anything done in India is a waste of time and effort.

LCA is such an effort.

I have stopped trying to debate such programs.

I just go, whatever you say boss. You are right.

[mody]

This is truly a red letter event. In defense production, India has not produced anything as complex as a fighter aircraft in bulk. The total order of 180 aircrafts will require HAL to scale up the manufacturing to 24 aircrafts per year. The entire vendor base and aerospace ecosystem in India will also have to scale up to keep pace.
This apart from the engine tech is the last remaining piece of the puzzle to make India a global aerospace power.
Once the large scale production of the Tejas MK1A is achieved, a base will be ready to produce the MK2 and TEDBF and further the AMCA in numbers.
I would bet, that a IAF version of the TEDBF will also most likely be developed, if Modi come back to power in 2024.
Hopefully GTRE will achieve a 55-56 KN dry thrust and 86-88 KN wet thrust version of the Kaveri in the next 4-5 years.

[deejay]

I had said Indian Military will order 500-600 LCAs at least, long back. This is a step in that direction.

[VickyAvinash]

I had said Indian Military will order 500-600 LCAs at least, long back. This is a step in that direction.

Welcome bak deejay. Long time since you last posted.

[ashishvikas]

First 3 Mk1A : 1 single seat & 2 trainers by Feb/March-24.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/17 ... BoZRg&s=19

[Rakesh]

First 3 Mk1A : 1 single seat & 2 trainers by Feb/March-24.

https://twitter.com/sriramthg/status/17 ... BoZRg&s=19

Are'nt the two trainers of the Mk1 standard? Below is the planned delivery schedule from Page 1 of this thread.

Planned Deliveries of Mk1A-FOC Single Seat Fighter - URL, 13 Aug 2021
• 2024: 2 aircraft
• 2025: 8 aircraft
• 2026: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2027: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2028: 14 - 16 aircraft
• 2029: 14 - 16 aircraft

Planned Deliveries of Mk1-FOC Twin Seat Trainer
• Not Known

[ashishvikas]

All trainers are going to be Mk1 standard like [there's just one standard for them]

Regarding delivery schedule for this year 23-24.. fingers .

Initial hiccups can be expected for new fighters, that's why I'm more looking for delivery of Mk1A fighters.

Trainers configuration is finalized and they have started coming out (remaining ones from 40 IOC/FOC contracts which had 8 trainers, one of which had a sortie with NM)

https://x.com/sriramthg/status/1730221541638492228?s=20

[Prem Kumar]

The things heartening about the 97 Mk1A order are that the IAF;

1) Did not wait for Mk1A deliveries to start before placing the order
2) Did not ask for enhancements, which would have made it a Mk1B
3) Ordered in bulk, instead of batches of 20/40, etc

The 97 additional proposal came from the blue from the CAS a few months back. And in short order, AoN has been granted!

[ernest]

The things heartening about the 97 Mk1A order are that the IAF;

1) Did not wait for Mk1A deliveries to start before placing the order
2) Did not ask for enhancements, which would have made it a Mk1B
3) Ordered in bulk, instead of batches of 20/40, etc

The 97 additional proposal came from the blue from the CAS a few months back. And in short order, AoN has been granted!

Small correction to point 1) - there are no orders yet, only AON, unless I missed something. But still a great step, due to points 2) and 3) . A welcome shift in the IAF acquisition process. May this accelerate further

[srin]

My somewhat cynical view is that IAF realized that due to upcoming General Elections next year, no MMRFA is going to happen (having seen the "Rafale scam" tamasha last time by pappu), and if a new Govt takes over, then another couple of years would be lost.
So, faced with falling squadron numbers and the reality of freeze on big import orders (and deliveries would be 3 years *after* orders placed), the IAF was faced with no choice but to double down on Tejas Mk1A (and Prachand instead of Apache).

[SriKumar]

I had said Indian Military will order 500-600 LCAs at least, long back. This is a step in that direction.

Welcome back. I still recall the story about your friend who went and bought an elephant from the Sonepur mela... (am still not sure it was real or what).

[ashishvikas]

How TEJAS will change the GAME for IAF | Short Film

[ashishvikas]

https://twitter.com/Distressed007/statu ... IS2xA&s=19 ---> ASRAAM on Tejas

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1730531746712838394?s=20 ---> Here’s Dr Kota Harinarayana's take on Tejas orders going up:

* From facing extensive cynicism from various quarters in the past - while developing the aircraft - to getting all-round appreciation now is a matter of great pride.

* There has been a persistent campaign against the project from time to time and I feel these are people with motive or people with ignorance.

* There were several challenges we faced on a daily basis while jumping from a 1st generation tech to a 4+ generation tech.

* I am extremely happy that today the IAF is the biggest supporter of Tejas program and has taken it as their frontline fighter.

* Tejas is superior in quality and capabilities when compared to fighters in its class.

* Tejas has the capacity and range to undertake critical missions today.

* I believe more orders will come in the future and we will be able to export it as well.

* I am told that plans are afoot in #HAL to increase the production rate and supply chain. Amidst all this, we will have #LCAMkII & #AMCA rolling out.

* In the next 10-20 years, IAF will be operating more home-grown fighters, which will in turn rewrite the military aviation ecosystem in the country.

* My dream is to make the IAF fighter base 100 percent indigenous.

As told to Anantha Krishnan M (@writetake) on 01 Dec 2023.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/Distressed007/statu ... IS2xA&s=19 ---> ASRAAM on Tejas

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1730 ... 90859?s=20 ---> Python 5 on Mk1 and ASRAAM for Mk1A. Asking for this on an import would mean we shell out millions as an "India Specific Equipment" fit whereas here we keep adding weapons as we must.

[ashishvikas]

^^ yes, but still okay if it gives added confidence to IAF.

It help us at least avoiding importing complete fighter jet itself.. gradually everything would be ours. See how ASTRA BVR is progressively becoming our primary choice.

[VishnuS]

I had said Indian Military will order 500-600 LCAs at least, long back. This is a step in that direction.

Bhai, I'd love to see this, but I'm sure you might have noticed that MK2 numbers have gone down from 200 to 6 squadrons.

OT: I am unable to send personal messages, can you please suggest me whom I should reach to get it sorted.

[Rakesh]

This likely explains the angst of some on BRF who were arguing (desperately!) for F-16 Block 70/72 during the SE fighter contest. They way these folks were pushing for the American F-16, made we wonder if their financial portfolio was invested in Lockheed Martin.

https://x.com/writetake/status/1730531746712838394?s=20 ---> Here’s Dr Kota Harinarayana's take on Tejas orders going up:

* There has been a persistent campaign against the project from time to time and I feel these are people with motive or people with ignorance.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1730 ... 42623?s=20 ---> 99% of the time, its motive. Those 220 Tejas Mk1A have stopped an equal number of imports. We are talking of an import value and lifestyle costs of over $100 Billion.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1730 ... 04841?s=20 ---> Lifecycle not lifestyle lol. But yes, that cash would have financed a very nice lifestyle for some.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/Distressed007/statu ... IS2xA&s=19 ---> ASRAAM on Tejas

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1730 ... 90859?s=20 ---> Python 5 on Mk1 and ASRAAM for Mk1A. Asking for this on an import would mean we shell out millions as an "India Specific Equipment" fit whereas here we keep adding weapons as we must.

https://x.com/Sukhwinder104/status/1730 ... 13741?s=20 ---> The integration process of the ASRAAM (or AIM-132) into the Tejas' arsenal is nearly complete. The ASRAAM is an extremely capable close combat missile, which works on the principle of IR homing. This CCM has a range of around 25 km and is capable of pulling high G turns of up to 50g.



====================================================================

https://x.com/sakthivel_cit93/status/17 ... 24926?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk1A will be among the most potent single engine fighters in the world, when it comes to missiles & munitions integrated.

Tejas Mk1A and Mk2 fighter jets could be equipped with MBDA's SPEAR and Brimstone missiles
https://defence.in/threads/tejas-mk1a-a ... siles.931/
02 Dec 2023