Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[fanne]

More importantly, it constraints the attacking party. They have to plan everything with the assumption that they can be target from 1000 km.

Same thing happened day after balakon. Tspaf had longer missiles. They fired many, all were evaded by su30mki/m2k, as they had situational awareness. But it also constrained them in pursuing the tspaf planes and shoot them. An enterprising pilot may take a chance and shoot down the opposition and may get hit in return (Abhinandan anyone).
This does complicate invading Air Force.
We should make our own s400 induction (Lrsam) of faster and then iterate for longer range.
90% of paf (including their new clear base) is within 200 km. Imagine a 400 km Sam stationed 100 km within border, we cover them from take off point.

[srai]

^^^


https://www.rfcafe.com/references/elect ... -sight.htm

[drnayar]

More importantly, it constraints the attacking party. They have to plan everything with the assumption that they can be target from 1000 km.

Same thing happened day after balakon. Tspaf had longer missiles. They fired many, all were evaded by su30mki/m2k, as they had situational awareness. But it also constrained them in pursuing the tspaf planes and shoot them. An enterprising pilot may take a chance and shoot down the opposition and may get hit in return (Abhinandan anyone).
This does complicate invading Air Force.
We should make our own s400 induction (Lrsam) of faster and then iterate for longer range.
90% of paf (including their new clear base) is within 200 km. Imagine a 400 km Sam stationed 100 km within border, we cover them from take off point.

The swordfish radars do have a range of 600 km .. The desi s400 clone project kusha ranges 350 km interceptor missile ..we are getting there

The Chinese seem to take it further to build a 1000 km range interceptor missiles.. I don't think their OTH radars can provide targeting data.. it would need to be some new S or X band radars ..maybe akin to the American sbx 1

[JTull]

https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1775 ... 23459?s=20

The night trial of #Agni Prime nuclear missile test successfully test fired off Odisha coast just now.

Agni Prime is the new missile in India’s nuclear arsenal. This is why it’s special

https://x.com/TheHemantRout/status/1775 ... 73135?s=20

#Breaking Night trial of new generation nuclear capable ballistic missile Agni Prime from a defence facility off Odisha coast successful. Developed by DRDO, the 2000-km range missile will be inducted in the armed forces soon.

File photo

[SSridhar]

New Generation Ballistic Missile Agni-Prime successfully flight-tested by Strategic Forces Command & DRDO off the Odisha coast

Posted On: 04 APR 2024 11:40AM by PIB Delhi

Strategic Forces Command (SFC), along with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), conducted the successful flight-test of New Generation Ballistic Missile Agni-Prime from Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha at around 1900 hrs on April 03, 2024. The test met all the trial objectives validating its reliable performance, as confirmed from the data captured by a number of range sensors deployed at different locations, including two downrange ships placed at the terminal point. The launch was witnessed by the Chief of Defence Staff, Chief of Strategic Forces Command and senior officials from DRDO & the Indian Army.

Raksha Mantri Shri Rajnath Singh has congratulated DRDO, SFC and the Armed Forces for the successful test. He stated that the successful development and induction of the missile will be an excellent force multiplier for the Armed Forces. Chief of Defence Staff General Anil Chauhan and Secretary, Department of Defence R&D and Chairman DRDO Dr Samir V Kamat appreciated the efforts of SFC and DRDO for the successful flight test.

[SSridhar]

DRDO starts work to set up test centre in Bengal: Official - ET

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has started implementing a project in Junput village in West Bengal to build a small test centre for the country's weapon systems, officials said on Thursday. Junput, like Odisha's Chandipur which is known for its Integrated Test Range (ITR), is also situated by the Bay of Bengal.

An additional operation area is required as the existing ITR at Chandipur near Balasore has become saturated with work related to testing.

Since its inception, the DRDO has aimed at designing and developing state-of-the-art sensors, weapon systems, platforms and allied equipment in defence and security domains of land, air, sea, space and cyber, an official said.

"As timely trials of weapon systems are of paramount importance, a plan is being implemented for an additional operation area at Junput near Digha, about 70 kilometres from Chandipur," the DRDO official said.

Junput is also 177 km from Kolkata and 40 km from Digha, a popular sea resort town.

"Located in the coastal zone of West Bengal, this proposed site covers 8.73 acres of land and also meets the requisite safety norms. The project has got recommendations from the central and the West Bengal governments," the official said.

The test site also got approval from the Ministry of Environment, Forest and Climate Change.

"According to the standard, while undergoing any flight test, DRDO always keeps the safety and tranquillity of humans and nature at utmost priority. All the people living in the vicinity of the test site should freely continue with their day-to-day activities.

"Further, DRDO ensures that its tests or trials do not impact the life of people, especially fishermen and farmers, dwelling in its surroundings," the official said.

[Cybaru]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1776544455820013937

[Rakesh]

Every word above is music to a jingo's ears. That last line makes we want to cry

[JTull]

I thought Astra IR had been cancelled and replaced by an all new IR missile project built with new propulsion system.

[Hriday]

In the context of Russia disabling Ukrainian missiles by using anti GPS systems and reports of Israel deploying the same to counter Iranian missiles; @Pataramesh comments in X that Iran use ground based GPS system. Link below.

https://twitter.com/Pataramesh/status/1 ... gamvw&s=19

Many years ago Arun_S had commented about the concept of possible use of ground based GPS in India.

Will they be immune to jamming ? Will they be effective in long range missiles ? Or can we use pencil thin beam that will almost unjammable as similar to Russian S-400 system ?

May be Haridas here know more about it.

[Manish_P]

Every word above is music to a jingo's ears. That last line makes we want to cry

I would humbly caution you, Admiral sir, to hold your happy tears until actual orders are placed.

The ghostly image of Humphrey Appleby appears - Government policy is almost always drafted in language which gives a lot of flexibility for interpretation. And on the rare occasions when it is drafted with clarity it is to put the officials in the clear.

So far there are confirmed orders for some 300 odd missiles IIRC. Am keeping the faith that the next batch of orders is in four digits.

[Prem Kumar]

Yeah, we have not gone past the 2022 order for 300 or 350 Astra-Mk1s. This is insufficient for even Su-30 MKI fleet. Production & deliveries have started. So, there is no reason to hold back on placing a 1000+ order!

Hope the IAF is not curtailing Mk1 in anticipation of Mk2, which will also be toke-ordered in favor of Mk3. That'd be a shame, considering how we have lost our BVR edge against beggar Pakis

[Rakesh]

I would humbly caution you, Admiral sir, to hold your happy tears until actual orders are placed.

The ghostly image of Humphrey Appleby appears - Government policy is almost always drafted in language which gives a lot of flexibility for interpretation. And on the rare occasions when it is drafted with clarity it is to put the officials in the clear.

So far there are confirmed orders for some 300 odd missiles IIRC. Am keeping the faith that the next batch of orders is in four digits.

Saar, what are we going to put on 220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1As? And then on another 200 Tejas Mk2s?

How many Derby-ERs and R-77s are we planning to buy to arm 400+ birds? Astronomical vs Astra

[Manish_P]

....
How many Derby-ERs and R-77s are we planning to buy to arm 400+ birds? Astronomical vs Astra

Nicely put and quite true. Now our netas and babus can be very creative where it suits them, but this looks like it will happen. So here's to looking forward to thousands of Tejastras.

[srai]

Let the mass orders be placed and signed for Astra Mk1. Then rejoice! … not earlier.

Combined with low quantity orders by end users and the slow 13-step Indian procurement bureaucracy, there is still quite a long ways to go for the domination of indigenous products in the IAF.

[Prem Kumar]

Yes and its jarring that Astra-Mk1 orders have not materialized beyond the initial 300+. Neither have orders for the PGM family: SAAW, PG-HSLD, G-series (Garuda, Garuthma, Gaurav etc)

But the massive Tejas order gives hope. Like Rakesh said, it will raise a lot of stink if the IAF orders anything but Astras for their Tejas fleet. Though Tejas is qualified to carry say the Derby, people will rake the Govt & IAF over the coals if they arm the fleet with it, especially when Astra-Mk1 has entered Production

With the Mk1a rollout slated to start shortly, I hope the IAF does not delay additional Astra-Mk1 orders. We dont want the fighters entering squadron service without a BVR missile (like the delay in ordering Helina/Dhruvastra for LCH/Rudra and complaining that the helis are naked without tank-busters)!

[Pratyush]

And yet the Air chief has talked about establishing a second assembly line for Astra. Like it's production is held up due to a lack of assembly line.

[srai]

All too often “chicken or egg” paralysis.

Place the orders and let the industry figure it out. Simple as that.

[basant]

AFAIK, a certain number of missiles are purchased per a/c. Further orders are placed when they see a requirement or to replace those missiles that have completed the designed life. The last purchases were also associated with the same. So yes, for the new fighters there will be a further order. But that may be limited too as Astra-1 is currently available and that Astra-2 is on the horizon. For a change, IMHO, it wouldn't be a bad choice. I don't see any reason for import related threats for Astra as IAF, since the beginning, has been very pro-Astra. I vaguely remember, IAF even allowed merging developmental trails with user trails.

[srai]

^^^
I don’t think Astra-Mk2 is a direct replacement for Mk1.

Astra Mk1 has MICA-like CCM and BVR (MR)capabilities.

Astra Mk2 looks to be more pure BVR (MR-LR).

[basant]

There is Astra IR for short range which might be ready, hopefully, for induction into later squadrons.

[konaseema]

The logical reasoning from IAF maybe that they have enough stockpile of imported A2A BVR missiles in their kitty and it may not make economical sense to order more Astra Mk1 at this time but as more and more Tejas Mk1A joins the IAF fleet, they may order in the next 3-4 years. Once Astra Mk2 is ready for a production run, they may place a large order of Astra Mk2 prior to any significant orders for Mk1.

[basant]

A2A missiles are not purchased at regular intervals. It is a rare event. However, in a higher threat environment it would be prudent to stockpile more. The question is, and I am not keen to know the official answer to, as on today how many of the Sukhois and other a/c are Astra capable. Most likely it is s/w update only apart from adapters, but I do hope that almost all the Sukhoi's, Tejas, Jag a/c and personnel are now Astra certified.

[Pratyush]

The logical reasoning from IAF maybe that they have enough stockpile of imported A2A BVR missiles in their kitty and it may not make economical sense to order more Astra Mk1 at this time but as more and more Tejas Mk1A joins the IAF fleet, they may order in the next 3-4 years. Once Astra Mk2 is ready for a production run, they may place a large order of Astra Mk2 prior to any significant orders for Mk1.

If that's the argument, then the chief should not have called for a second line for the missile.

Alternatively, given that the Su 30s and Tejas between them are going to be 250 +240 airframes by early 2030s. It would make sense for the IAF to build an inventory of 4000 to 5000 missiles by early 2030s.

[Pratyush]

A2A missiles are not purchased at regular intervals. It is a rare event. However, in a higher threat environment it would be prudent to stockpile more. The question is, and I am not keen to know the official answer to, as on today how many of the Sukhois and other a/c are Astra capable. Most likely it is s/w update only apart from adapters, but I do hope that almost all the Sukhoi's, Tejas, Jag a/c and personnel are now Astra certified.

A large airforce such as IAF requires several thousand munitions of different types.

AAMs are not like Maggie that they will be available off the shelf. If you just walked into the store. They require a supply chain and trained manpower to assemble.

In times of crisis or war, the forces are going to require 10s of thousands of missiles of different types. At that that time you cannot just say let's build 1000 Astra.

You require these things in storage for utilisation in crisis. The only way to accomplish that is by placing production orders that diliver 400 to 500 missiles per annum. Till the time safe stocks are reached.

[srin]

A2A missiles are not purchased at regular intervals. It is a rare event. However, in a higher threat environment it would be prudent to stockpile more. The question is, and I am not keen to know the official answer to, as on today how many of the Sukhois and other a/c are Astra capable. Most likely it is s/w update only apart from adapters, but I do hope that almost all the Sukhoi's, Tejas, Jag a/c and personnel are now Astra certified.

Why not? It is a consumable (like bullets, artillery rounds, rockets), so should come under revenue expenditure and not capital expenditure. You keep using up stocks in training (however rare live firing is), and thius needs to be replenished.

From supply point of view, steady orders means a steady production line. And the suppliers also have steady cash flow to sustain themselves, and invest in better tools and training. Why would they invest if they aren't sure of the orders in future?

[Aditya_V]

The solution is like R73, use R77 older stocks in SAM launchers, similarly a requirement could be built up for Astra based SAM, this can create enough space to set up Astra production ecosystems.

[basant]

I was not analysing the correctness of the policy itself which is agnostic to missile's country of origin. I am just saying that under the current practice missile procurement appears to happen in a specific way. Of course, I find such limited stock of missiles as surprising.

[ashthor]

The small astra orders where to streamline for larger orders

[Prem Kumar]

^^ I want to believe this. Truly. Lets see.

[Manish_P]

Astra being certified on both russian origin and western origin fighters also gives us a good opportunity to export it and earn USD

Both sides are going to need it... Just like they need artillery shells now...

[Pratyush]

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=2017876

DRDO & Indian Army conduct successful trials of indigenous Man Portable Anti-tank Guided Missile Weapon System

Published date 14 April 2024.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1779384143367081985 ---> India’s man-portable anti-tank missile (MPATGM) completes development trials, declared ready for final user evaluation trials by the Indian Army. Picture of warhead flight trials at Pokhran on April 13:

[Rakesh]

^^^ https://x.com/elmihiro/status/1779664844553429416 ---> The Army could eventually place an order for up to a dozen of these systems.

https://x.com/elmihiro/status/1779669699179192447 ---> One missile for each Premchand helicopter (for a total of six), three spare rounds, two units for further trials, and one for DRDO to experiment with.

[ashishvikas]

India to test 130 km strike range Astra Mark-2 missile this year

https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 416204025/

[ernest]

QRSAM has been quiet for a while now. I was hoping orders to be placed soon. Given the rapidly increasing need for AD assets, it should be a priority.

Any updates on that front from official year end releases? Chaiwallah/Paanwallah?

[vcsekhar]

In times of crisis or war, the forces are going to require 10s of thousands of missiles of different types. At that that time you cannot just say let's build 1000 Astra.
You require these things in storage for utilization in crisis. The only way to accomplish that is by placing production orders that diliver 400 to 500 missiles per annum. Till the time safe stocks are reached.

AFAIK from discussions with friends in the AF, I have gathered that typically the total number of AAM's procured is based on the total number of aircraft that the enemy possesses and the Pk of the missiles plus stocks for live fire training and carriage life expiry. We don't willy-nilly procure highly expensive missiles and store them just for them to life expire.
Obviously, new strategies will have to be developed since drones are being used to swarm the AD systems. Maybe ship type CIWS type systems will be developed to defend against drone swarms at lower costs.

[srai]

^^^
Now that missiles are being designed and manufactured in India, the mindset needs to change.

Yes, for expensive imports only limited quantities were procured.

But when you produce your own, you have to think about continuous long term viability of your own MIC by placing large orders to be delivered over 5-10 years. Then followed by next improved tranche and so on. Mid-life upgrades.

Storage of modern missiles not a big issue as they come in vacuum sealed smart containers extending the shelf-life to 10-years. Minor maintenance and upgrades can occur at the end further extending shelf-life as well as useful life to two decades.

Other use cases like AAM converted for ground based AD extends its usefulness further.

[Prem Kumar]

At any rate, 248 Astra-Mk1s (200 for IAF & 48 for IN) is a very small number. Ok for initial batch. But now that BDL has started delivering since late 2023, the Production must have stabilized by now

Because of this small batch size, the timeline for delivery is 6 years! That's a glacial pace. A follow-on order can easily be placed, that will bring the total count to 1000+ and hold BDL's feet to the fire to deliver in the same timeframe. Totally do'able

By then, Astra-Mk2 will be ready & ordered. They can transition to it smoothly

[basant]

India to test 130 km strike range Astra Mark-2 missile this year

https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 416204025/

Surprising that the range is 130 km. Wasn't it supposed to be 160 km?