Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Rakesh]

Alpha Defense Hindi is claiming 900 km Brahmos test is successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc_wFo-APDo

Successful test of ER-BrahMos was confirmed by Indian Navy and BrahMos Aerospace. See tweets below. But obviously not the range.

https://x.com/indiannavy/status/1750156 ... 07385?s=20 ---> Indian Navy & M/s BAPL carried out successful engagement of land target at enhanced range with advanced supersonic cruise missile. This endeavour revalidates Aatma Nirbharta for extended range precision strike capability from combat & mission ready ships.

https://x.com/BrahMosMissile/status/175 ... 13612?s=20 ---> Congratulations @indiannavy for precision hit of land target with advanced BrahMos supersonic cruise missile having improved range, firepower & stealth. The spectacular launch bolsters the Navy's Combat Readiness, revalidating AatmaNirbharta in defence.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1750217 ... 86197?s=20 ---> BrahMos tested off INS Ranvijay / INS Ranvir. This is likely the first known test of < 900 km version, the max range reportedly being targeted for surface launched BrahMos.

[drnayar]

Alpha Defense Hindi is claiming 900 km Brahmos test is successful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc_wFo-APDo

Successful test of ER-BrahMos was confirmed by Indian Navy and BrahMos Aerospace. See tweets below. But obviously not the range.

https://x.com/indiannavy/status/1750156 ... 07385?s=20 ---> Indian Navy & M/s BAPL carried out successful engagement of land target at enhanced range with advanced supersonic cruise missile. This endeavour revalidates Aatma Nirbharta for extended range precision strike capability from combat & mission ready ships.

https://x.com/BrahMosMissile/status/175 ... 13612?s=20 ---> Congratulations @indiannavy for precision hit of land target with advanced BrahMos supersonic cruise missile having improved range, firepower & stealth. The spectacular launch bolsters the Navy's Combat Readiness, revalidating AatmaNirbharta in defence.

Admiral ..it seems like a new launch mechanism. It s a cold ejection and a definite pause before a spectacular kick in of the booster?!! ..reminded me of a hypersonic missile launch !

[Prem Kumar]

Good point! So far, all launches have been hot, followed by the classic thrust vectoring maneuver, which aligns the missile horizontally

This one is cold and that maneuver is missing.

But I dont know about 800 Km range. One thing is for sure - this is not the first time they are testing it - they would have tested it from land first

[Pratyush]

I have always seen cold launch videos of the Brahmos missile on you tube.

[Haridas]

A5 launch at night.

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1750 ... wNjEA&s=19

Video:
https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1750 ... actfw&s=19

[drnayar]

A5 launch at night.

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1750 ... wNjEA&s=19

Video:
https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1750 ... actfw&s=19

what are those couple of secondary explosions at launch ? seems like something is ejected off immediately at launch ?

[Kersi]

What was the test in Arabian Sea ? Another Brahmos ?
Looks like ship / submarine launched.

[Haridas]

What was the test in Arabian Sea ? Another Brahmos ?
Looks like ship / submarine launched.

Tested at Abdul Kalam test range, Balasor.
See the familiar rail rolling shed in the background.

[Haridas]

what are those couple of secondary explosions at launch ? seems like something is ejected off immediately at launch ?

At the end of ejection the gas generator block is pushed away (by small rocket) so that the huge booster exhaust does not kick it unpredictably to launcher platform or bounce back to missile.

[Kersi]

What was the test in Arabian Sea ? Another Brahmos ?
Looks like ship / submarine launched.

Tested at Abdul Kalam test range, Balasor.
See the familiar rail rolling shed in the background.

The NOTAM mentioned another test in Arabian Sea

[Yagnasri]

One observation/question of mango man Astra is said to be having some 110 KM range. Astra-based SAM was initially said to be in the 40 Km range. It is logical as it will be launched from land and will not have the momentum of the air-launched AAM. But suddenly, we hear press reports that instead of 40 KM, its range can be up to 80 Km. How is that logically possible if the same propulsion and engine are used? A lot of energy will be lost initially in the land-based launch. If it really has a range of 80Km, then does it mean the original AAM, i.e. Astra Mk1, has more than 110 Km range?

[Aditya_V]

Since a land launched missile does not have restrictions of length to fit on the Hard point of fighter, apart from weight, you can add a booster burning for few secs which will give the missile momentum when launched from the Ground.

[srai]

Simple answer: boosters



You can add-on different size boosters for desired range. The negative side is larger boosters mean minimum engagement zone gets pushed out further as it won’t be able to intercept while the booster is still attached and running.

So you need both.

[Rakesh]

Astra Mk1 came as shot in the arm for IAF capabilities: IAF Chief
https://idrw.org/astra-mki-came-as-a-sh ... iaf-chief/
31 Jan 2024

[JTull]

Simple answer: boosters

You can add-on different size boosters for desired range. The negative side is larger boosters mean minimum engagement zone gets pushed out further as it won’t be able to intercept while the booster is still attached and running.

So you need both.

Good point. This is analogous to a choice between Astra-I and Astra-II (dual pulse). Many think that we can discard Mk1 once Mk2 comes, we need both as Astra-II's minimum engagement area will be much more!

[sohamn]

Dual pulse doesn’t work like boosters and minimum engagement zone is not impacted. Dual pulse means that the solid fueled engine ignites and powers to Mach 4 or thereabouts and shuts off to coast to the target and towards the end restarts the engine for another boost for better engagement & maneuverability in the last few nautical miles. Unlike single pulse at the end engagement zone at long ranges it simply doesn’t have energy to maneuver into a turning high speed target like a fighter.

[JTull]

These missiles are optimised for better performance and higher maneuverability during the second pulse. While they should be able to engage targets during first pulse (a much longer) phase, but I wonder if they can be as effective as a single pulse-only missile. By the 'optimised' I mean the chosen trajectory will be very different by a dual pulse missile, as also the velocity imparted by the first pulse will be lower than a single pulse-only.

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy Tests BrahMos Missile With ‘Enhanced Range’ Of 900 Km
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... of-900-km/
02 Feb 2024

[ernest]

Looks like Rudram -2 has been tested, confirmed from Vayushakti 24 video. Please remove this if already posted.

I like the way new missile tests are happening without being announced. Pleasant surprises are always welcome.

Hoping the induction is fast tracked

[sohamn]

These missiles are optimised for better performance and higher maneuverability during the second pulse. While they should be able to engage targets during first pulse (a much longer) phase, but I wonder if they can be as effective as a single pulse-only missile. By the 'optimised' I mean the chosen trajectory will be very different by a dual pulse missile, as also the velocity imparted by the first pulse will be lower than a single pulse-only.

A dual pulse rocket motor based missile generally climbs up in the first pulse (unless the target is nearby) and then uses the potential energy of the high altitude to keep the velocity greater than Mach 1.5 or thereabouts. Engages the second burn when it is closing in on the target. Timing of second firing of the rocket motor is made by the onboard computer to ensure optimal energy state is maintained in the terminal phase.

In a single pulse missile at the longest advertised range of say 50 kts for Astra , unless the incoming fighter is dumb enough to not maneuver then is zero chance of success. This is not the case for Astra 2, because the high energy state gives Astra 2 a significant high kill probability at 50 kts range. The MAR in Astra 2 is much higher than Astra 1 because of this reason.


However, to note that Meteor is a single pulse motor but it is a very efficient Ram jet and not a rocket motor. It’s burn time is nearly 3x of Astra (it doesn’t carry oxydizer) and hence it’s energy state is very high even at terminal stage because of which the MAR is even higher than Astra Mk2. This is why SFDR is the missile we must invest in.

[drnayar]

Apparently the Chinese were interested in Bayern chemie of Germany who makes the meteor motor

[Prem Kumar]

I doubt if the latest Brahmos test was for 900 Km. The author (Adithya Krishna Menon, who is also on Twitter) is basing it on the Notam range, which is a stretch

[sohamn]

I don't think its 900km as well, Brahmos however can scale upto 800 kms range of its predecessor the Oniks which has a max range of 800 kms on a hi-hi-hi profile.

[mody]

One observation/question of mango man Astra is said to be having some 110 KM range. Astra-based SAM was initially said to be in the 40 Km range. It is logical as it will be launched from land and will not have the momentum of the air-launched AAM. But suddenly, we hear press reports that instead of 40 KM, its range can be up to 80 Km. How is that logically possible if the same propulsion and engine are used? A lot of energy will be lost initially in the land-based launch. If it really has a range of 80Km, then does it mean the original AAM, i.e. Astra Mk1, has more than 110 Km range?

The VL-SRSAM is based on the Astra missile and the range is given as 30-40 Kms only. It is not quoted as 80kms.
The Akash-NG is not based on the Astra MK-1 and has a dual pulse motor, maybe very similar to the MRSAM. DRDO has developed the dual pulse rocket motor for the MRSAM and it is being manufactured in India. Hence, it would most likely be the case that the Akash-NG would be using the same rocket motor.
I don't know if we have an agreement with our yahudi brothers to not develop an exact replica of the MRSAM missile or not.
For the MRSAM project, the radar and the missile seeker tech has come from the Israelis and the dual pulse rocket motor if from DRDO.
We can have our own fire control radar now and RF-seekers have been developed in India. In fact now we have developed AESA based RF seekers.
The Akash-NG most probably has the same rocket motor as the MRSAM, but deliberately the range of the Akash-NG is not being stated unequivocally.

Also, strangely the Akash-NG has an inclined launcher, as opposed to a vertical launcher. India does not have a problem with vertical launchers and in fact the VL-SRSAM which is being developed simultaneously has a vertical launcher. The QRSAM has an inclined launcher.
This might be to have slightly different characteristics as compared to the MRSAM.

Another point to remember is that Israel already offers its Barak-8 for exports, whereas India has not offered the standalone MRSAM system for exports to anyone.

[Ashokk]

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1763197133170360330

DRDO conducted two successful flight tests of Very Short-Range Air Defence System (VSHORADS) missile on 28th & 29th Feb 2024 from a ground based portable launcher off the coast of Odisha from Integrated Test Range, Chandipur: statement

[Ankit Desai]

India conducts 2 flight tests of short-range air defence missile

The DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) conducted two successful flight tests of very short-range air defence system missiles on February 28 and 29 from a ground-based portable launcher off the coast of Odisha from integrated test range, Chandipur

-Ankit

[Prem Kumar]

Nice flight pattern. Initial soft-launch to separate to a safe distance before the motor kicks in. Highly agile

1) Am surprised that, for a 6 Km range, they have a dual-pulse-rocket motor. Possibly because its designed to take-down even high speed targets like fighters, while Stingers/Iglas are suited to slow moving helicopters and ground attack aircraft
2) IIR seeker, which will help in our CCM Astra project
3) This is not a shoulder-mounted missile. Its tripod or vehicle mounted. So, its not strictly an Igla replacement. It also means that we still have much tech to master, if we are yet to reach the Igla/Stinger shoulder-mounted levels of miniaturization, materials, propulsion etc (which are of 1980s vintage).

The real test will be the Pk values that it demonstrates on the field. The Pk of Stingers are hotly contested

A good start nevertheless. Hope its inducted in the 1000s in the current version itself and iteratively improved

[Pratyush]

Do the Israelis have a similar system that can be rebadged and produced by Adani under make in India?

If yes, then this missile will not be ordered by services .

[srai]

…
3) This is not a shoulder-mounted missile. Its tripod or vehicle mounted. So, it’s not strictly an Igla replacement. It also means that we still have much tech to master, if we are yet to reach the Igla/Stinger shoulder-mounted levels of miniaturization, materials, propulsion etc (which are of 1980s vintage).
…

Nowadays MANPADs are paired with early warning radars. Mounted systems are better for 24/7 coverage setup. More sophisticated targeting sensors can be utilized on mounts.

Also, Igla/Stingers are old designs that aren’t as capable.

[srai]

Akash-NG ranges all over the place after recent tests: 30 Km, 50 Km, 60 Km etc

When tests were repeatedly done in 2021 and 2022, the range was consistently claimed to be in the 70 - 80 Km range - a.k.a its a replacement for MRSAM/Barak-8

And the 70 - 80 Km range makes sense because DRDO built the dual-pulse motor tech for the MRSAM. Akash-NG is nothing but the indigenous equivalent of the MRSAM. That's why the Janes report above says that its tail fins have a resemblance

…

Based on this DRDO poster it is 30km.



There will likely be MR/LR versions with different size booster attachments and VLS platform setup.

[srai]

Side-by-side view of the launchers indicate MR-SAM/Barak-8 much bigger than Akash NG. Take a look

Akash NG


MR-SAM/Barak-8


Akash NG designed to basically fulfill the same SR-SAM role as Akash-1 using a similar infrastructure. Improvements are 10-simultaneous engagement, 24x missiles, and modern missile design among other things.

[sajaym]

3) This is not a shoulder-mounted missile. Its tripod or vehicle mounted. So, its not strictly an Igla replacement.

Somehow, the shape of the launcher tube resembles the Igla. I feel that the tripod seems to be just a stand for the tests. I'm guessing this because whenever DRDO develops a new system they prefer to go with the shape / form of some existing system...so since this is their first shoulder fired SAM , they might've modelled this on the Igla.

[Prem Kumar]

Check the dimensions & weight of VSHORAD vs Igla or Stinger. Its both bigger and heavier for it to be shoulder-fired

Srai: based on the pictures you shared, I am not able to discern any size difference between the two. In fact, the MRSAM launcher accommodates 8 missiles, while Akash-NG accommodates 6. Yes, the MRSAM trailer is longer, but the missile launcher itself seems similar

[JTull]

Check the dimensions & weight of VSHORAD vs Igla or Stinger. Its both bigger and heavier for it to be shoulder-fired

Srai: based on the pictures you shared, I am not able to discern any size difference between the two. In fact, the MRSAM launcher accommodates 8 missiles, while Akash-NG accommodates 6. Yes, the MRSAM trailer is longer, but the missile launcher itself seems similar

What is the length of VSHORAD? Stinger is 5ft.

[Prem Kumar]

Wiki chacha says this:

VSHORAD:
Length: 2m (6ft 7in)
Weight: 20.5 Kgs
Max speed: Mach 1.5
Range: 7 Km

Stinger:
Length: 5 ft
Weight: 15.7 Kgs
Max speed: Mach 2.2
Range: 4.8 Km

VSHORAD has a higher range than Stinger (also compared to Igla, which has a 6 Km range). But on all the other params, Stinger is better: faster, lighter, smaller

No shame in this. Its our Manpad v1.0. We will get better, but this shows the gap that we have to overcome

[vera_k]

The increased range may be what was asked for. Distinctly remember Helina had to have work done to increase range. Stinger looks a little short ranged similar to the original Helina.

[Pratyush]

This is not a Stinger competitor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral_(missile)

This is a Mistral competitor.

[uddu]

Wiki chacha says this:

VSHORAD:
Length: 2m (6ft 7in)
Weight: 20.5 Kgs
Max speed: Mach 1.5
Range: 7 Km

Stinger:
Length: 5 ft
Weight: 15.7 Kgs
Max speed: Mach 2.2
Range: 4.8 Km

VSHORAD has a higher range than Stinger (also compared to Igla, which has a 6 Km range). But on all the other params, Stinger is better: faster, lighter, smaller

No shame in this. Its our Manpad v1.0. We will get better, but this shows the gap that we have to overcome

If the range requirements are higher, surely the weight will increase. its not that DRDO cannot come up with a 5km range VSHORAD-Light which is lighter than stinger.

[srai]

I think we are debating on a non-issue