Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Pratyush]

AFAIK from discussions with friends in the AF, I have gathered that typically the total number of AAM's procured is based on the total number of aircraft that the enemy possesses and the Pk of the missiles plus stocks for live fire training and carriage life expiry. We don't willy-nilly procure highly expensive missiles and store them just for them to life expire.
Obviously, new strategies will have to be developed since drones are being used to swarm the AD systems. Maybe ship type CIWS type systems will be developed to defend against drone swarms at lower costs.

The section in bold requires a stock of close to 6000 missiles at any given point of time. If not more. Along with the orders required to maintain those numbers.

The PLAF has over 2400 jets. PAF close to 300. If a pk of .5 is accepted for the missile. Then the IAF needs to have atleast 2700x2= 5400. Plus the missiles for carriage life expiry and training.

[vcsekhar]

The section in bold requires a stock of close to 6000 missiles at any given point of time. If not more. Along with the orders required to maintain those numbers.
The PLAF has over 2400 jets. PAF close to 300. If a pk of .5 is accepted for the missile. Then the IAF needs to have atleast 2700x2= 5400. Plus the missiles for carriage life expiry and training.

This might be true, but, the IAF would also base their requirements on the expected numbers of attackers rather than just the number of aircraft that are present in the adversary's inventory (budgets are not unlimited).
Also, I think that the current generation missiles have a Pk better than 0.5, obviously the actual number would be classified, and no BVR missile apart from the AARAAM and the WVR AIM9 have ever been used in any significant number in actual combat. From OSINT data, the Python5 and the Meteor seem to have far better Pk, but, who can say what the actual number is...
But apart from all this talk, I dont think we actually know what the total number of AAM's in the IAF inventory.
Cheers

[Aditya_V]

Regarding Astra orders , the actual order I think was more missiles than 248, there seems to 1 order in May 22 for more than 300+ misisles, some sources say it is close to 400 and a follow on order could be there too

https://www.icicidirect.com/research/eq ... C%20TEDBF.

Govt flags off Astra Missile at BDL for supply to Indian Air Force

BDL had received an initial order of 300+ Astra missiles in May 2022. With this new clearance from govt, the company is set to receive further large orders for Astra BVR missiles, which are planned to be used on fighter jets like Tejas MK1A, upgraded Su-30MKI and upcoming fighter jets like AMCA, TEDBF.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/Kuntal__biswas/status/1476862589443342337 ---> Hitting 2x2 meter target at 87 km! Astra for life.

VIDEO: https://x.com/Kuntal__biswas/status/1780555974425927865 ---> From the horse's mouth. Astra Mk-2 @ 160 KM.

[basant]

I thought Astra IR had been cancelled and replaced by an all new IR missile project built with new propulsion system.

IIRC, those reports surfaced only once and there has been little news regarding the system and Astra IR too. In any event, I guess we should see a (not very) short range AAM.

[basant]

AFAIK, a certain number of missiles are purchased per a/c. Further orders are placed when they see a requirement or to replace those missiles that have completed the designed life. The last purchases were also associated with the same. So yes, for the new fighters there will be a further order. But that may be limited too as Astra-1 is currently available and that Astra-2 is on the horizon. For a change, IMHO, it wouldn't be a bad choice. I don't see any reason for import related threats for Astra as IAF, since the beginning, has been very pro-Astra. I vaguely remember, IAF even allowed merging developmental trails with user trails.

The following video is the source to affirm the support from IAF for Astra. See from 17:45 onwards.

[Manish_P]

AFAIK from discussions with friends in the AF, I have gathered that typically the total number of AAM's procured is based on the total number of aircraft that the enemy possesses and the Pk of the missiles plus stocks for live fire training and carriage life expiry. We don't willy-nilly procure highly expensive missiles and store them just for them to life expire.
..

We will also need to take into account the loyal wingman type UCAVs which the Chinese will likely field in the near future.

These would accompany their manned aircraft at altitudes which are outside the engagement range of the cheaper AAA guns

[vcsekhar]

We will also need to take into account the loyal wingman type UCAVs which the Chinese will likely field in the near future.
These would accompany their manned aircraft at altitudes which are outside the engagement range of the cheaper AAA guns

The world of warfare in changing and I am sure that the IAF will also incorporate these changes into its doctrine.
We can only make educated guesses based on open source information and we should rest assured that the people who make the decisions are better informed and have better knowledge of the requirements of the future.

[Manish_P]

The world of warfare in changing and I am sure that the IAF will also incorporate these changes into its doctrine.
..

No doubt about it whatsoever

We can only make educated guesses based on open source information and we should rest assured that the people who make the decisions are better informed and have better knowledge of the requirements of the future.

That's the raison d'etre for the 'Discussion' part of the thread title, isn't it. Else one can simply say that since only the services and the defence industry folk know things, this thread will be only for 'News' type posts

[vcsekhar]

That's the raison d'etre for the 'Discussion' part of the thread title, isn't it. Else one can simply say that since only the services and the defence industry folk know things, this thread will be only for 'News' type posts

I agree 100%

[srai]

^^^
Have faith!
Just believe!

[ashthor]

Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile (ITCM) successfully flight tested today from ITR Chandipur, off the coast of Odisha

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 3448491281

[drnayar]

Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile (ITCM) successfully flight tested today from ITR Chandipur, off the coast of Odisha

https://twitter.com/DRDO_India/status/1 ... 3448491281

cool, maybe the jinx was in the name Nirbhay

Now get that into the assembly line and pump out in thousands !

from wiki

Sukhoi Su-30MKI of IAF followed the missile's path to monitor the performance of the missile. The missile displayed extremely low altitude sea-skimming flight and used waypoint navigation to follow the intended course, said Defense Ministry. The missile was powered by GTRE-developed Manik STFE engine. The missile employed advanced avionics and software for reliable functioning.

And the following is highly significant : our own desi Tomahawk

Submarine Launched Cruise Missile (SLCM) is a missile designed to launch from torpedo tubes of submarines. It is a compact version of Nirbhay missile. It has a stated range of 500 km, with a cruise length of 5.6 meter, diameter of 0.505 meter, all up weight of 975 kg and Mach 0.7 speed. It would feature INS/GPS navigation, with an RF seeker for terminal guidance. It comes with two variants: a Land attack cruise missile (LACM) and Anti-Ship Cruise Missile (ASCM).

The missile shall be a part of the weapons package of Project 75(I) submarines.

There are plans to extend the missile's range to 800 km. During flight, SLCMs follow a low altitude trajectory. They skim close to the surface to stay out of the radar systems' altitude range. The missile would be tested initially on Sindhughosh-class submarines.

[A Deshmukh]

what was the range it was tested?

[Pratyush]

^^^

980 kms.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/livefist/status/1780904648414474543 ---> And here's a video of today's Nirbhay ITCM test, powered by Indian turbofan engine Manik.

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1780906739837329521 ---> THIS IS BIG! India tests Nirbhay cruise missile — for the first time with an Indian propulsion system, the Manik turbofan engine, replacing the earlier Russian engine. Hard to overstate what a milestone this is for India’s missile program.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/dperi84/status/1780906847886787037 ---> DRDO conducted a successful flight-test of an “Indigenous Technology Cruise Missile” off the Odisha coast. The missile followed the desired path using way point navigation and demonstrated very low altitude sea-skimming flight. The missile is also equipped with advanced avionics and software to ensure better and reliable performance. The missile is developed by Bengaluru-based DRDO laboratory Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE) along with contribution from other laboratories & Indian industries.

[SRajesh]

A huge shout out to DRDO/ADRE/ADE
A huge success and coming of age of Desi Engine
Two question:
1.per this validation whats reasonable time frame for induction
2. How will the present engine success impact of the other two : Ghatak engine and Kaveri variants
And a noob pooch : is there any chance of sabotage with the Rus engines given some of misgivings vis-a-vis chine and unkil on Indian Cruise Missle develoments??

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/GODOFPARADOXES/status/1780970984159203596 ---> DRDO ITCM from today's test fire.

[Manish_P]

VIDEO: https://x.com/livefist/status/1780904648414474543 ---> And here's a video of today's Nirbhay ITCM test, powered by Indian turbofan engine Manik.

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1780906739837329521 ---> THIS IS BIG! India tests Nirbhay cruise missile — for the first time with an Indian propulsion system, the Manik turbofan engine, replacing the earlier Russian engine. Hard to overstate what a milestone this is for India’s missile program.

Awesome. Atmanirbharta in action!

[VinodTK]

X-Posting

Indian Army progressing Rs 6,800 crore indigenous shoulder-fired missile projects for China, Pakistan borders

The Indian Army is progressing two cases worth over Rs 6,800 crore for developing Very Short Range Air Defence Systems indigenously amid shortages in the inventory of shoulder-fired missiles to tackle aerial threats on borders with China and Pakistan. The Army plans to develop and procure over 500 launchers and around 3000 missiles from indigenous routes.

At the same time, the Indian Army along with the other stakeholders is looking at the possibility of an old tender scrapped earlier in which the Russian Igla-S was selected in view of the delays for finding replacement for the old Igla-1M missiles.
Defence Ministry officials said the current VSHORAD missiles in the inventory of the Indian Army and Indian Air Force are all with lR homing guidance systems and the Igla 1M VSHORAD missile system was inducted in 1989 and was planned for de-induction in 2013.
"At present, there is a Rs 4800 crore project in which a public sector unit headquartered in Hyderabad and a private sector Pune-based firm have been engaged for developing a laser beam riding VSHORADS which would be used by the forces to protect the borders to provide protection from enemy drones, fighter aircraft and choppers," defence forces' officials told news agency ANI.
The project would be for developing 200 launchers and 1200 missiles for supplying to the Indian Army and Air Force and the lead in the project is the Indian Army which is the biggest user of these missiles, they said.

Of the 1200 missiles planned to be inducted in the project, it is likely to get 700 while the remaining would be for the IAF.

The two firms have to produce the prototype of the system under the Indian Designed, Developed and Manufactured clause of the Defence Acquisition Procedure, they said. However, industry sources informed that the progress made in this programme has not been very encouraging. Another programme that is being progressed is the Design and Development project being carried out by the DRDO for making an infra-red homing-based VSHORADS.

The DRDO is working with two of its Development cum Production Partners Adani Defence and I-Comm for producing Laser Beam Riding VSHORADS.
The DRDO has tested the system based on a tripod and they are now expected to miniaturise the system for making it a shoulder-fired weapon system, the officials said.

In the meanwhile, the Indian Army and the Air Force used the Emergency Procurement powers to buy around 96 launchers of the Russian Igla of which 48 have already arrived as part of the first tranche of the orders given in EP-1 while 48 are expected to be delivered in near future.

In this meanwhile, there is also a suggestion to revive the contract which was scrapped almost over five years ago in which the Russian side had emerged as the lowest bidder with its Igla-S system on offer.

The stakeholders in the project are expected to meet soon to find out ways of carrying out the project under 'Make in India'.
The project scrapped by the Defence Ministry was expected to be worth around Rs 4,800 crore.
The importance and the versatility of"VSHORAD missiles have been regularly proved in battle including the recent Russia-Ukraine conflict, Defence Ministry officials stated.
The Indian forces have been progressing the cases for replacing their old VSHORADS system.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1782773508751450184 ---> A successful launch of the new variant of a Medium-Range Ballistic Missile was carried out under the aegis of the Strategic Forces Command on April 23, 2024. The user launch has proven the operational capability of the Command and validated new technologies.

[Prem Kumar]

MoD and DRDO have been tightlipped about this new MRBM. They didn't say its from the Agni family

Sneaking suspicion that its a K4 test, maybe with MIRV

[Rakesh]

How India Hit It Out Of The Park With The Legendary Brahmos Cruise Missile

[mody]

MoD and DRDO have been tightlipped about this new MRBM. They didn't say its from the Agni family

Sneaking suspicion that its a K4 test, maybe with MIRV

Some reports claim that it was the land variant of K-15 missile that was tested. If this is true then it should be the Shourya missile that was tested. Last I remember it was tested in 2020 post Galwan and declared as operational. I don't know, if the recently tested missile is an updated/upgraded further development of the Shourya missile or not.