Iran's Identity Faultlines - Islamic / Aryan

[Agnimitra]

Would similar comments be made about urdu?

Quite the contrary. Urdu prefers to choose only rustic vernacular words (khari boli) from the Indian languages, or to adopt and mispronounce Sanskritic words in a rustic-sounding vernacular way, further modified by the limitations of the Perso-Arabic script (e.g., krishna --> kishan, avataara --> autaar). That is the type of rustic sweetness it assigns to the "native" culture. The sophisticated feminine grace is assigned to all things Persian. The sophisticated masculine power is assigned to Arabic which lends the "energetic" aspect to the language. This is the preferred combination as stated in introductions to the language's evolution by Urdu scholars themselves.

[ramana]

Urdu is a tri-coiled serpent : feminized Persian, masculine Arabic and core Khari Bholi. All this to appeal to peoelp. What if the people go beyond this coiled serpent's stare?
All three are has been coils or on the way.

[Agnimitra]

Urdu is a tri-coiled serpent : feminized Persian, masculine Arabic and core Khari Bholi. All this to appeal to peoelp. What if the people go beyond this coiled serpent's stare?
All three are has been coils or on the way.

Urdu is downstream from Arabized (and Turkified) Persian. So the experiment performed to radically transform the Persian language was then repeated on Urdu with greater understanding and better expectations.

In the beginning, after the Arab conquest of Persia, Pahlavi language was sought to be finished off in favour of Arabic. IOW, Iran was sought to be Arabized just like present-day Syria - whose original inhabitants were not Arabs by descent at all, but are now Arabs by language and culture. So also, in the beginning the Arabization of Persia proceeded along lines laid out in Islam, to acculturate and make the Persians also "mu'arrabeen" - Arabized non-Arabs. In this, many converts participated with great zeal, and so many great "Islamic" or "Arab" savants were actually of Persian descent, but who had become more Arab than Arabs. Even the founders of most schools of fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence and socio-cultural engineering) were Persian converts. So this was the first wave - to completely neglect native Pahlavi in favour of making Arabic the language of power, administration, literature, technology and religion. (Of course, since the Arabs were totally dependent on Persian imperial expertise to form the new Islamic caliphate, a lot of old Pahlavi words entered the Arabic language in modified form).

However, at some point the popular resentment against Arabization bore fruit, and so the seeds of separate Persian/Irani identity again re-appeared. People like Ferdowsi, Gorgani, etc. were among those who tried to preserve, resurrect and reinvigorate the Pahlavi language and also original pre-Arabic Iranian cultural traits and peculiarities, even if some of those were against Islamic law or sensibilities. They tried to use a form of Persian without Arabic words. This was the second wave. Its fundamental failure was that it failed to break out of its current civilizational mould and reconnect with its old classical Avestan/Sanskrit roots and stem, and so it only set itself up to be grafted as a branch onto the Arabic and Islamic root and stem, making Iran a sub-civilization of the Arab-Islamic.

Then there were extremely popular religious and philosopher poets like Rumi and Hafez who now expressed themselves in this new Persian, with varying levels of use of Arabic. This means that by now Persian was alive and kicking as a literary language - but it had actually become deracinated from its Avestan (and prior Sanskrit) stem and roots and had found itself grafted onto an Arabic root and Islamic stem. So it was very much a pidgin Persian. Thus, even these great poet philosophers used Arabic technical vocabulary for certain philosophical usage, but did use pure Persian words for other things. E.g., instead of "gham" (sadness) and "ghussah" (anger), both Arabic words, Hafez will often use "nezhand" and "dozham", pure Persian - though most modern Iranis have never heard of those words and would simply use "gham" and "ghusseh". But despite this word jugglery, it was clear for Rumi and Hafez that the language was now firmly grafted onto Arabic. Hafez's great divaan begins with a line in pure Arabic. Thus, Persian was zameeni (earthly beauty), Arabic was asemaani (heavenly power). This zameeni-asemaani way of looking at Islamization of non-Arabic cultures is an innate part of Islam or many other civilizational paradigms including Sanskriti. In the Qur'an, it is found as the concept of "samawaat wal ardh" (heavens and earth). So this was the third wave.

However, by this time the Persian pronunciation itself had changed, its fundamental set of phonemes had changed. They could no longer pronounce the names of their own ancestors. E.g., "Prithavaan" became "Fereydoon". Even "Parsi" became "Farsi", because Arabic doesn't have "pa" (though Persian retains it)! Moreover and strangely, Persian actually decided to get rid of some of its own characteristic old phonemes that Arabic also has - example the soft and sibilant "th". It converted that "th" into "sa".

Then in modern times, there was a push before the Islamic revolution, and to some extent even after (due to Iraq war sentiment) to try to keep the modern vocabulary as Persian as possible. Yet, for most technical, philosophical and of course religious vocabulary, they do have to turn towards Arabic to avoid long-winded Persian constructions. Inventing Persian terminology is problematic because it doesn't have grammatical roots in Avestan syntax anymore, and so they would have to string together or add modifiers to Persian words. But Arabic syntax is based on roots, like Sanskrit, and so its easier to invent new vocabulary. Learning Arabic inflections is a standard part of learning the Persian language because of this dependency now. It would require a real tectonic civilizational shift for Persian to reconnect with its Avestan mother (or Sanskrit for all practical purposes, since Avestan grammar is lost and is reconstructed by Zoros from Panini Sanskrit vyakarana). Ultimately its a matter of necessity and possibility. If certain possibilities can be made stronger and brought into focus, and other possibilities diminished, and then a necessity emerges from within, then the heavens change w.r.t the earth.

So Urdu was downstream from that Iranian Arabization/Islamization experiment, and its evolution followed similar lines. First Arabized Persian was the court language for centuries, then a compromise, "pidgin" wave followed to funnel and acculturate the native non-Ashraf and non-Ajlaf masses was constructed as "Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu", and then that has been tweaked as required.

[ramana]

Christ you are linguist scholar yourself. Thanks for the education. Do you have blog for all this knowledge to be shared.
Also why not write a monograph on all this epub it?

My pointi s asmaani Arbic is being Whabahized and zameeni Persian is returnign to its roots. Kahri Boli has become Hindi.
And there is undertow of Hinglish with the golbalization current if not tide. And Modernism provides new vocabulary that has to be grafted.

In such strong cross currents can Urdu exist?
A language whithers when most of its speakers start using anohter language to communicate.

[ramana]

Inside Iran: Iran's demographic problem

by Ariel Ben Solomon
The Jerusalem Post
January 24, 2014

http://www.meforum.org/3724/iran-demographic-problem
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Is there a correlation between Iran's nuclear program and its low fertility rate or, perhaps as well, between the vitality of Islamic civilization and its shrinking birthrates? There is, according to David Goldman, a fellow at the right-wing, US-based think tank the Middle East Forum, and a longtime writer for Asia Times Online under the moniker Spengler. The author of How Civilizations Die: (And Why Islam Is Dying Too), Goldman, an economist by training, explains the impact demographic fluctuations have on the greater strategic balance of power between states and civilizations.

In an interview with The Jerusalem Post during a recent visit to Israel to promote the launch of the Hebrew version of his book, Goldman explained how he has followed demographic literature and the changes in Muslim demography.

Positive demographics are a result of societies that are forward-looking and self-confident, he said.

"A lack of desire for children is typically a symptom of civilizational decline," and the Muslim world is currently witnessing such a phenomenon, he avers.

Europe is going through a similar phase and there are obvious parallels with the Muslim world, he says, pointing out that when "traditional societies encounter the modern world and lose self-confidence, traditional behavior such as religion, childbearing, and other cultural patterns change radically."

"In Iran this occurred in one generation, while in Turkey it took two."

The estimated birthrate in Iran is around 1.86 children per woman for 2013, below the replacement rate of two births per woman, according to the CIA World Factbook. However, many demographers think Iran's fertility rate is even lower, at around 1.6 to 1.7.

A fertility rate higher than 2.1 births per woman indicates population growth.

Contraception is also widely used in Iran, having been previously promoted by the leader of the 1979 Islamic Revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, in the 1980s – although in 2012, Tehran scrapped its birth control program after Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said the Islamic Republic should aim for a population of 150 million to 200 million.

Other Middle Eastern states' birthrates have also been declining.

According to the CIA World Factbook 2013 estimates, Turkey had a birthrate of 2.1 children per woman, Tunisia 2.01, Morocco 2.17, Saudi Arabia 2.21, Kuwait 2.56, Syria 2.77, Algeria 2.78, Egypt 2.9, Jordan 3.32, and Iraq 3.5.

According to a 2009 UN report titled "Fertility Prospects in the Arab Region," carried out by John Casterline of Ohio State University, a sharp decline in birthrates is charted, especially since the 1980s.

For example, from 1950-1955, the Algerian fertility rate was 7.3, Egypt 6.4, Tunisia 6.9, Iraq and Syria 7.3, Jordan 7.4, and Morocco, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia at 7.2.

Under the rule of the shah, before the 1979 revolution, Iran became the first Muslim country to achieve universal literacy.

The higher the literacy and education, the lower the birthrates tend to be, said Goldman, adding that Turkey is suffering from a similar trend.

By the middle of this century, a third of Iranians will be older than 60, compared to only 7 percent today, and the cost of caring for elderly dependents will crush Iran's economy, he says.

Iran is undergoing economic and demographic decline, explains Goldman, and in order to carry out the regime's regional and global expansionist ambitions, it needs more resources, which could be easier to obtain under the umbrella of nuclear weapons.

Goldman compares Iran's predicament to that of the former Soviet Union.

From the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, the country's leadership began to act more aggressively – perhaps because they understood that it was the last chance to push for power amid an economic and demographic decline, Goldman explains.

In Iran, mosque attendance is low, just as church attendance is in England, he states.

"The best predictor of the number of children in industrial societies is religious observance," he says.

Asked about initiatives by some countries to counter birth rate decline by offering government subsidies, Goldman responded, "Subsidies have some effect, but the main reason to have children is not economic, but emotional."

Regarding Israel and the Palestinians, he points out that from the river to the sea, not including Gaza, the birthrate for Arab Muslims and Jews is around 3. However, the trends are going in opposite directions, with Jewish fertility increasing and Arab fertility decreasing.

"In fact," says Goldman, "the situation is worse for the Palestinians," because the official data provided by the Palestinian Authority is inflated.

US Secretary of State John Kerry said during a speech at the Saban Center in December that Israel needs to heed the "demographic time bomb" of Palestinian population growth. Goldman refutes the validity of this argument.

"The argument that there is an urgent reason to do something right now is simply false – there is no urgency," he asserts. "Palestinian Arabs have the highest living standards and upward mobility of any Arabs in the world except for some in the Gulf states."

Another important factor, he says, is that aging populations are less warlike than younger ones. The Good Friday agreement in Ireland was reached in 1998, and it was helped by a population decrease, he notes.

Asked about how this knowledge could benefit US policy, he says, "The US needs to abandon the illusion that it can stabilize most of the Muslim world."

There is going to be "a long period of chaos, and the best we can do is prevent it from hurting us."

Goldman says he agrees with Jonathan Sacks, the former chief rabbi of Great Britain, who said that the concept of individual rights comes even before democracy. In Western society, this is a concept derived from the Jewish idea that human beings have inalienable rights. "No such concept exists in Islam," he says.

Egypt, he says, is a "banana republic without the bananas," and is "in danger of a humanitarian disaster and social collapse."

The best-case scenario is that the Gulf states subsidize the country.

As for Syria, he believes there are two evil sides, and that a partition of the country would be best. The Russians would probably agree to some formulation where an Alawite state would be formed, he adds.

Concerning the Kurds, he says, "A Kurdish state is inevitable, and it is in the interest of the US to encourage it to be pro-American."

Regarding US politics, Goldman thinks the problem with Republican foreign policy is that it continues to "bet so much on president George W. Bush's freedom agenda" of spreading democracy throughout the Muslim world, and it "is difficult for many to back out of it."

The best policy at the moment? "Manage the chaos in the region."

[SRoy]

^^

I talked about this Islamic demographic trend in some other thread.

It not just Iran, but Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia, Bangladesh etc....all large Islamic populations are undergoing this trend. And I believe Mullahs understand the long term implications, which will make them go for desperate options.

Among the larger groups only Pakistan and Indian Muslims are bucking the trend.

For better or worse, future of Islam will be decided in India.

[Agnimitra]

X-posting an older post from Politco-ISlamic Thought (GDF) here:

Agnimitra Can we discern the Zorastarian memes in Muhammad's thinking?
Also can we do the inversion model of Islam with Christianity and/or Judaism?

Lots of Zoroastrian memes in Prophet Muhammad's thinking. One of his closest companions, advisors and aides was the celebrated-but-controversial Salman al-Farsi, the aristocratic Persian convert. This "Salman" was originally Ruzbeh, and was a fully anointed Zoroastrian high-priest (mobed) called Mobed Dinyar, according to many. It is said that Mobed Dinyar became affiliated with the new Mazdaki sect of Zoroastrianism (founder lived in early 500's AD), to which the Zoroastrian orthodoxy was vehemently opposed, and so the young Mobed Dinyar bore a grudge against Zoroastrian orthodoxy and was part of a movement to subvert it from within. The Mazdakis did have some royal Sassani support for a time, and so the intra-priesthood power-struggle involved heavy-weights on both sides. The lopsided anti-people policies of the pro-orthodoxy Sassanians was an additional reason the Mazdakis wanted change at any cost. Quite likely the renegade priest Modeb Dinyar and other Mazdakis thought that they needed a force from outside also to topple and finish off the old order and put Mazdaki ethics into society.

What are some Mazdaki Zoroastrian memes? - Mazdak instituted communal possessions and social welfare programs. He has been seen as a proto-socialist. In some ways Mazdakism is seen as a Zoroastrian heresy. Mazdakism was also a typical gnostic sect that believed in "12 powers", etc., which later played itself out in the "12 imams" descending from Muhammad.

This Mobed became Salman al-Farsi, and was a close confidant of the Prophet. He also advised in practical matters such as battle formations and defences, and is renowned as the one who taught the Arabs the art of building the trench (khandaq) that saved them and granted them victory in that crucial battle.

The Prophet had great regard for Salman, and once told his companions, "There is a race of people who will even go all the way to the moon in order to gain knowledge." when they asked which nation (qaum) that was, the Prophet tapped Salman (sitting next to him) on the thigh and said, "his nation". Salman also became the first historical person to attempt a translation of the Qur'an into a different language - Persian in this case.

Apart from social organization and individual responsibility, Zoroastrian memes can be seen in Islamic gnosis as well as practice. For example, in terms of practice, the 5 daily prayers of Islam are a direct replica of the standard Zoroastrian practice:
Havan Gah -> Salat-ul-Fajr (dawn)
Rapithwin Gah -> Salat-al-Dhuhr (noon)
Uzyeirin Gah -> Salat-al-Asr (afternoon)
Aiwisruthrem Gah -> Salat-al-Maghreb (dusk)
Ushahin Gah -> Salat-al-Isha (night)

Demographically also, one can trace the overlap and continuation of pre-existing Zoroastrian memes. Zoroastrianism has been pretty much confined to the Aryan nations of the Eurasia and Greater Iran . Yet, there were small Zoroastrian pockets in Arabia specially in Yemen among the ruling elites who were the vassals of either the Sassanid or the earlier Achaemenid dynasties. Also, there were small Zoroastrian pockets in the fishing villages of the Persian Gulf. As a rule, wherever you see Shia pockets today in the Arabian Peninsula, namely where Arabia meets the Persian Gulf and in the mountains of Yemen, there existed small pockets of Zoroastrians in the ancient past.

Even linguistically the imprint is deep. Almost all the words in the Qur'an that deal with the Paradise are Persian in origin (e.g. "firdaus"). Also, the angels Harut and Marut who knew all the sciences and arts according to the Qur'an are of definite Zoroastrian origin. The idea of future Mahdi (Zoroastrian Saoshyant), the "bridge" to the other realms, etc. are all Zoroastrian. Even the "night journey" of Prophet Mohammad is a copy from the fictional journey of a priest mentioned in the Zoroastrian Arda Viraf.

Here is Sahih Hadith in which Mohammad gives permission to Umar to collect Jiziya Tax [Protection Tax] from Magis [Zoroastrian Priests] from Hajar, in Arabia... This is a clear indication that Zoroastrianism was not just followed within Persian empire, and Iran which was just a part of it, but also in parts of Arabia which were already under the autonomous administration of the emerging empire of the Islamic Prophet Muhammad:

http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0002P0063.aspx

2987. It is related that 'Umar was heard to say, "I was sitting with Jabir ibn Zayd and 'Amr ibn Aws, and Bajala had related to them at the steps of Zamzam in 70 A.H., the year in which Mus'ab ibn az-Zubayr went on hajj with the people of Basra. He said, 'I was the scribe of Jaz' ibn Mu'awiya, the uncle of al-Ahnaf. A letter reached us from 'Umar ibn al-Khattab a year before he died: "Separate every marriage between forbidden degrees of the Magians." 'Umar did not take jizya from the Magians until 'Abdu'r-Rahman ibn 'Awf testified that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, had taken it from the Magians of Hajar.'"

Later, the renegade priest Mobed Dinyar (aka Salman al-Farsi) was instrumental in orchestrating the attack on the Persian Empire (while reaching a compromise with the Byzantines) and he weakened the defence of the Persians with the connivance of sympathetic Mazdaki insiders in the court of the Emperor after making promises of positions of power-sharing and pelf to his collaborators. They in turn had hoped to set up a system akin to the Roman Catholic Church. This explains the wholesale conversion and defection of significant portions of Persian aristocracy immediately after the Islamic invasion.

The "inversion" angle is also prominent - with the greatest hate-speech reserved for those communities whose memes have been adopted and/or inverted to the maximum. Early Islamic hadiths have the greatest hatred for Jews, followed closely by the Zoroastrians. Still, just like Imam Ali translated 40 Hebrew scrolls into Arabic as his unique contribution, so did other senior companions translate and experiment with Zoroastrian works, including the ritual of the smokeless fire.

Mobed Dinyar aka Salman al-Farsi had also become very controversial in the Islamic community because of an incident, when he ran away and left the Prophet and his group. He did so because he felt there was something evil or wrong with it, and this was around the time of the "Satanic Verses". Later the Prophet retracted those verses and said they had been whispered by Satan and not by Allah. Later after that retraction, Salman returned to the community and the Prophet publicly forgave him so that other community members did not attack him. Still, many were angry with him for such a humiliating gesture that disturbed a lot of junior members' faith. After the Prophet died, some hadiths narrate how Salman would often be taunted and called names for betraying the Prophet that time.

[Agnimitra]

Iran lawmakers pass bill allowing men to marry adopted daughters

Human rights activists say approved bill, making girls vulnerable to the ruling from age 13, 'legalises paedophilia'

Parliamentarians in Iran have passed a bill to protect the rights of children which includes a clause that allows a man to marry his adopted daughter and while she is as young as 13 years.

According to Sadr, officials in Iran have tried to play down the sexual part of such marriages, saying it is in the bill to solve the issue of hijab [head scarf] complications when a child is adopted.

An adopted daughter is expected to wear the hijab in front of her father, and a mother should wear it in front of her adopted son if he is old enough, Sadr said.

[Agnimitra]

So Valentine's Day is huge among Irani youth. The Islamic regime considers it a cultural invasion of epic proportions, just like the Barbie doll. So although gifts continue to be bought and given, there is anti-Valentine's propaganda war, and often an open season for the friendly neighborhood Basiji to catch and give a few Westoxified elements a bloody nose for playing around with the hearts of hejabi sisters.

So what do Westoxified Irani kids do? They dig into Iran's pre-Islamic heritage and come up with this:

Sepandārmazgān - some Iranians reinvent Valentine's Day

This has been marketed via social networks and whatnot as Iran's "Aryan" version of the Valentine's Day that they supposedly share with their white Euro cousins. Same-to-same onlee. Iranee-Italiaee barodar barodar. Marketed most aggressively on Zoroastrian networks.

Of course its rubbish - that festival - to the extent it may have existed in some parts - bears little resemblance to today's Valentine's Day. But what the heck. A little re-factoring is useful in cultural battles.

[Agnimitra]

X-post from TSP thread:

In my discourse over the years, I have found that many Indian Muslims and Pakistanis would add Persian to their supposed heritage to add "prestige" to themselves. This is apart from the "Central Asian" claim.

Persian was the language of the Mughal court and also the official language in the Empire. The Mughal rulers employed Persians in large numbers as nobility in their courts. So, there is a certain association of 'high-church' with Persian especially in the Ganga-Jamuna belt.

Iranis have used a standard survival tactic ever since the Greek invasions:
1. Make son-in-laws out of their conquerors by giving their daughters in marriage (or rather acquiescing in the taking of their daughters, after the fact).
2. Then surrounding these conquerors as courtiers, advisors, religious adepts (after converting if needed) and flattering poets, and thereby maintaining deep influence via soft power channels.

[ramana]

Agnimitra, Looks like Pakjabis have imbibed that skill quite well along the centuries. Misfortunately they do that even to invading low culture tribals of AlQ/Taliban.

[Agnimitra]

Agnimitra, Looks like Pakjabis have imbibed that skill quite well along the centuries. Misfortunately they do that even to invading low culture tribals of AlQ/Taliban.

Pakjabi RAPE attitudes are hand-me-down from the Iranics, via the Pashtuns. You think the Taliban PAshtuns are "low culture"? Even they have done the same of converting defeat and disgrace into a virtue by identifying with their conquerors.

X-posting an old post from Af-Pak thread:

TSP racial identity issues are neurotic. I just googled racist attitudes in TSP and found this on a Paki forum no less:

"Effect of Pathan racism on Pakistan"
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/culture-lite ... acism.html

Some nuggets
Typical a-hole called "Afghan Prince" writes:

Before 1947 pashtuns were considered noble people becauz of their noble qualities,. They ruled india 3 times {huh?} and were as ruling and warrior people. As they were dominant on Indian races therefore this brought them to consider thereselves superior to locals. At their peak of power in India they used to pray in separate mosques instead with locals. In their initial colonization of India, the half pathans were not considered as equal as pure pathans. Pathans raised mutiny against sikndar lodhi, the ruler of India, just because his mother was Indian.
Pathans of N.w.F.P were more strict and turned against syed ahmad shaheed bcozhe demande pashtun wives for himself and his Indian mujahideens from locals.
That’s why there are so many khans in India bcoz low caste hindus after converting to islam used khan surname and called theseves pathans bcoz pathans were superior people and were feared by locals.

But today being pakistnai they are now in defensive mood. They are selling their daughters to punjabies. Many modern and educated pathan families are hiding their pathan idenititu bcoz they have become symbol of backwardness.

Sensible guy called safar777 educates the rest:

Pathans have a habit of over glorifying themselves and interpreting history to suit their overblown egos. A lot written by 'Afghan Prince' is based on his ethnic racism and pride and the hurt to his ego because some Pathans are marrying with Punjabis (and Balochis, Sindhis, Muhajirs).

If you look at History Pathans never ruled India 3 times. 10 years of self styled Sher Khan does not constitute a Dynasty.

If you go to original sources of history not to fairy tales you will see what happened and what is still happening. Pathans have won and have been defeated like all other communities however Pathans have made their defeats into fairy tales. Case in point when Babur pillaged and crushed the Pathans in the present tribal areas he demaded the daughter of Shah Mansur Yusufzai as submission from the tribe. However the Pathans have made that defeat into a fairy tale of Babur dressing up as a qalandar and wooing Bibi Mubaraka which no historian agrees to. Even the modern Pathans don't agree with this.

If you start with Ghaznavi, they were 100% Turk tribes. In fact they fought against Hindu/Buddhist/Atheist/Animast Pashtun tribes to control these areas. The founder of the dynasty was Sebüktigin (ruled 977–997), a former Turkish slave who was recognized by the Samanids (a Persian Muslim dynasty) as governor of Ghazna. As the Samanid dynasty weakened, Sebüktigin consolidated his position and expanded his domains as far as the Indian border.

Muslim historians Ibn Haukal, Utbi and Alberuni are ALL unanimous that uptill the time of Mahmud Ghaznavi i.e. almost four hundred years after the death of the Prophet, most of the Afghans were still non-Muslims. Mahmud Ghaznavi 'had to fight against the infidel Afghans in the Sulaiman mountains.' Even 200 years later in the encounter between Mohammad Ghori and Prithviraj in 1192 A.D., according to Farishta, Hindu/Buddhist/Animist/Pagan/Shamanist/Zoroastrian Afghans were fighting on the side of the Rajput Chief. The cavalry flank of Prithvi Raj Chauhan was made up of Afghans.

After that Mongols invaded these lands and ravaged and pillaged Herat, Balkh and most of Afghanistan. After that the Timurid dynasty rose who was a Tatar/Mongol with strong backing of Uzbek Turks. Again nothing to do with Pashtuns. Prior to arrival of Mughals even Kandahar was ruled by Arghun who are Mongol (ILKHanate) tribe.

Afterwards you had Babur the Mughal invading. He was a Chughtai Turk and even documented the pillars of Afghan heads he created in his own book "Tuzk-e-Babri". In his own book Babur writes:

"...Marching out of Kohat, we took the Hangu-road for Bangash. Between Kohat and Hangu that road runs through a valley shut in on either hand by the mountains. When we entered this valley, the Afghans of Kohat and thereabouts who were gathered on both hill-skirts, raised their war-cry with great clamour. Our then guide, Malik Bu-sa'id Kamarl was well-acquainted with the Afghan locations ; he represented that further on there was a detached hill on our right, where, if the Afghans came down to it from the hill-skirt, we might surround and take them. God brought it right! The Afghans, on reaching the place, did come down. We ordered one party of braves to seize the neck of land between that hill and the mountains, others to move along its sides, so mat under attack made from all sides at once, the Afghans might be made to reach their doom. Against the all around assault, they could not even fight; a hundred or two were taken, some were brought in alive but of most, the heads only were brought. We had been told that when Afghans are powerless to resist, they go before their foe with grass between their teeth, this being as much as to say, " I am your cow." Here we saw this custom ; Afghans unable to make resistance, came before us with grass between their teeth. Those our men had brought in as prisoners were ordered to be beheaded and a pillar of their heads was set up in our camp..."

You can read his biography where he writes about his war on the Yusufzais, quite different from the Pashtun fairly tale of Babur dressing up as a Qalandar.

Moving on, when Babur invaded India and fought an epic battle with the Rajput Chief 'Rana Sanka' (considered a battle betweeen Muslims and Hindus) , the Rajputs had with them Mahmud Lodhi, out to avenge his father's defeat with 10,000 Afghans. Most of the Afghan perished along with the Rajputs defeat against Babur's army.

When Akbar was the emperor of the Mughal empire and this included Kabul and Kandahar there were two rebellions both were crushed by Rajput armies of the Mughals. Even in the twilight of the Mughal empire, Emperor Aurangzeb sent in Rajput chief (Raja Jaswant Singh) to punishing the Afghans for their rebellion.

Finally the favourite of Pashtuns, Ahmed abdali came on the heels of Nadir Shah Afshar Qazilbash (the Persian King). However right after the death of Ahmed Abdali the ares East of Khyber were quickly lost to the Ranjit Singh's army.

When the Sikh were fighting their 3rd and final battle against the British the Afghan king even sent a 5000 strong cavalry (hoping this alliance would help them take Peshawar), however as soon as the Sikhs were defeated the Afghan cavalry ran back to Khyber non-stop!

Later on the British even helped supported the Afghan kings in their war against Persia (First Ango-Persian war which took Herat from Persia for Afghans) and even gave money and arms to the ruling Afghan dynasty as part of their great game strategy against Tsarist Russia and Iran. Until 1910 the foreign policy of so called Afghanistan was controlled by British empire and the so called Afghan king was given a Stipend by the British every year.

However if you talk with Pakistani Pashtoons or Afghan Pashtuns they seem to claim to rule the moon and sun. Similar to Bibi Mubaraka-Babur fairy tales.

So just as "safar777" writes about the Pashtuns, the same applies to all Iranics. Persians paint Ali as if he was on their side! For 1400 years the Persians who mattered traced roots as Seyed or Tabataba'i, with bloodlines supposedly from Ali. Most of Ali's nahj-ol-balagheh are taken from existing Greek, Jewish, Zoroastrian and Hindu classical sources of wisdom. Etc.

[Agnimitra]

Interesting resource... I found only 2 parts out of 7:

Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis - Part I

Collected Sanskrit Writings of the Parsis - Part II

[Paul]

^^^^Agnimitra, In the Pakistan thread, I said that Pakjabis are deconstructing the Pakhtun narrative of being unconquerable becuz the Pakhtuns are challenging their control of Pakistan through the TTP.

The Pakhtuns are retaliating by running down the myth of Pakistani army being invincible.

This is where in my previous post I said it is desirable for a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan. This will lead to a TTP resurgence in Pakistan and result in ethnic fracturing of these two states.

Afghanistan is as much an artificial construction of the westphalian state as is Pakistan.

[Agnimitra]

This is where in my previous post I said it is desirable for a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan. This will lead to a TTP resurgence in Pakistan...

I am not sure if a Taliban resurgence in Afghanistan is necessary for a TTP-Pakjabi cleavage in Pakistan. It could even be the other way around.

In any case, we ought to stick our noses in TSP's emerging cleavage, encourage their ridiculously inflated egos to burst at the seams, help the garb of their falsified history to come undone. Love or war, these are necessary preliminaries, IMHO.

[Paul]

The Afghan ruling setup is more fragile compared to the Paki govt. It already has Pakhtun representation to the point of domination. Afghan Taliban are spread out all the way from Kunduz to Kandahar. ANA deserts to their side all the time wheras we have not yet heard of any desertions in the Paki army. Hence the Afghan Taliban has a better chance of coming to power than the TTP. Furthermore, TTP is basically centered around Waziristan and has Mehsuds at it's fulcrum. They may not be able to take on the mighty Paki establishment backed by the 3.5 Fathers unless they get support from an external player.

[Paul]

The Aryans of Old Iran

The Aryans (using the word in its narrower sense, as comprising the two peoples, the Indians and the Iranians, who called themselves by that proud name) had lived together for long ages in one land, had spoken one tongue and had followed one religion.

[Agnimitra]

Massive anti-Yoga ad campaign in Iran these days. Posters and informational leaflets about how yoga and meditation are not really useful, or are even bad for physical and mental health, how yoga and meditation are inspired by Satan, etc.

Yoga is as popular in some urban areas of Iran as it is in the US.

Earlier, the Islamist campaign was that salaat/namaaz (Islamic prayer) was yoga, meditation and more, all wrapped into one, and therefore the best thing God or man ever created. But now they're saying yoga is inspired by the devil and has a bad effect on the soul.

[Agnimitra]

X-posted from the Bharateeyam thread:

Ontological Parallels

Even though in essence and content the philosophical worldview of Dharmics is completely different than say that of Muslims, however for the sake of a minimal level of mutual conceptual understanding, I am proposing the following ontological parallels:

• Arabs => Bharatiyas (nationhood)
• Arabia => Bharat (nation)
• Islam => Āryatva (civilizational memes)
• Ummah => Āryavarta (civilized world)
• Muslim => Ārya (cultured, enlightened)
• Allah => Paramatma (transcendental existence)
• Qu'ran => Dharma (codex of life)
• Sharia => Raj Dharma (Law)
• Jihad => Dharma Yuddha (righteous war)
• Asabiyyah, Arab Nationalism, Ba'athism => Hindutva (native resistance)

Perhaps then we need to ask why the Persians and the Afghans are so keen to call themselves 'Ārya'!

Perhaps then we need to ask why the Persians and the Afghans are so keen to call themselves 'Ārya'!

Because they've been told over the last 150 years its a racial term, and that they were the ones who took a break from making love to their sheep and inseminated the Dravidian Indians, and 'composed' the Vedas. It also makes them feel closer to the Euros. There's a lot of 'Westoxification' ('gharbzadegi') going around in Iranic circles for over a century and a half now.

Agnimitra ji,

Persians and Afghans used to proudly call themselves 'Ārya' even before the "Westoxification".

That 'Ārya' imagery of self was, I believe, their identification with the 'Āryatva' civilizational meme which spread from Bharat into the rest of the known world. Historian call it "Sanskritization". I call it 'Āryatva' as 'Ārya' was the noblest ideal from the times of Sri Rama and earlier. Persia and Afghanistan, among other regions, were the fruit of the mission, "Krinvanto Vishvam Aryam"!

Persian and Afghanistan very proudly embraced the identity 'Ārya' and as you say Westoxification talked them into considering 'Ārya' to mean their race which allowed them to think they shared some racial origins with the Europeans.

Perhaps the Persians and Afghans were more than happy to distance themselves from a subjugated Bharat and reconnect themselves in some distant way with the emerging European powers.

I hope we Bharatiyas re-embrace 'Āryatva' as our central civilizational identifier and consider 'Bharatiyata' its very core.

RajeshA ji, yes they were allowed to call themselves 'Arya' before their Islamization and then Westoxification. And deservedly so. In an Upanishad it is suggested that Vedically educated men are to be found in Gandhara. But then their region also got to be called 'Avaganasthaana' - Land of semi-civilized tribes', too. So they have no business calling themselves 'Arya' anymore unless they recognize and adopt the culture of an Aryavrata - farhang-e-Aryaee. They need to be disabused of the idiotic notion that 'Arya' is a tribal identity.

Agnimitra ji,

From Bharatiya perspective, where 'Āryatva' originated and was nurtured, any other people would hardly be able to meet the high standards. Important is that other people too saw 'Āryatva' as a civilizational ideal and wished to rise to the ideal and thus identified themselves with that ideal.

We need to again make it the foremost ideal but the light, the polish in the 'Āryatva' diamond can solely be realized by Bharatiya Sabhyata, by us Bharatiyas, which means it is we who need to again be the richest, strongest, most cultured, most humane, most beautiful, most technologically proficient, most skillful, most driven and most proud people among all humanity.

Realistically speaking, I don't think we can reclaim 'Ārya' as our civilizational identifier from the Europeans and Iranians unless our civilization again starts expanding internally as well as externally. As they say, history is made by the victors.

RajeshA ji, that's true. But even in our current compromised state, one finds that neo-Zoroastrian movements that harp on 'Aryan race' nonsense like to link themselves with India - albeit selectively. When it comes to race, they go to a ridiculous extent to identify with Europeans, but when it comes to philosophical substance and spirituality, they like to tag onto India.

So even in our sorry material condition, and the condition of our degraded Sabhyata, it is noteworthy that people still find an attraction, purely on the basis of the accumulated Sanskriti, and its few living exemplars.

I don't think it will be too difficult to finish off the big "Aryan race" hoax that Western colonial 'historians' and 'Indologists' invented, once India comes into its own, both politically and materially. Getting the Iranics to defect might be especially facile, given their dozens of contradictions and inflated self-delusions in their identity-manufacturing twists and turns over the centuries.

Just a few months back I was chatting with an Irani student in India. He was darker-skinned and rather drunk, and was lamenting that he didn't understand how he ended up dark when Iranis were supposed to be "Arya" and therefore blond and blue eyed - of which there are relatively few in Iran anyway - minus the omnipresent hair-dye, nosejobs and eyelenses. He figured there must be Arab admixture, and was rooming with an Iraqi friend. When I told him that this Aryan-race theory was a ridiculous hoax, he was so delighted that days later he wanted me to repeat some of the facts to him while he was sober - just so he could make sure he got all of it.

Iran can be incredibly racist about darker skin, and the Turko-Iranian tribes that were earlier looked down on as nomads (even in 1920, about 30% of Iran's population were nomads) now strut their (usually) lighter features. Typical Persian features were historically described as being darker, since the center of Irani civilization was in traditionally in south-Iran, but switched to the north relatively late, and then it became a fashion to get wives from the Caucusus.

Another Irani acquaintance who was hoping to marry a Tajik girlfriend from the Pamirs was telling me how those fair-featured Pamiris were the last remaining "pure Aryans" after the Arab/Mongol conquest of the region, since they lived on mountain-tops and so defended themselves from darker skinned conquerors. I suggested to him it was absurd to think these relatively primitive and peaceful Pamiris were unreachable by the others who ruled everything around them for centuries, and when their spiritual leader, the Agha Khan, was himself supposedly a Sayyid. Rather, I suggested that perhaps in a racially very diverse region, the lighter skin types chose cooler climes to settle, as it happens to be the case in many parts of India or other parts of the world, too. The common sense of it seemed too cruel for his romanticism, but he feebly offered "historians' proof" in defence.

Another friend, a Persian from the south, was rather European looking, while most in her family weren't. This is quite common in Khuzestan, where the odd member in the family is Euro-looking. The British and other Euros interested in oil had spent a lot of time in that part of Iran, and it is well known in Iran that they sowed their wild oats. She was rational enough to admit it herself, and joked that they had all surely been 'raped'.

This sacralizing and romanticizing of "white race" is an interesting meme. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with it per se - it is just one of those facets of human nature. What's attractive is attractive, and one may choose to possess it. But it is a problem when it is mixed up with other human considerations via lies and manipulation of low self-esteem - a Kaliyuga phenomenon of perversion of all human considerations, including Beauty. This phenomenon of confused considerations is a spiritual obstacle not only to those who envy it, but also to those who possess it in any degree. So, as you said, this lies and confusion has to be undone via proper thinking, facts and demonstration of something superior to remove the delusion.

[cdbatra]

X-post from TSP thread:


Iranis have used a standard survival tactic ever since the Greek invasions:
1. Make son-in-laws out of their conquerors by giving their daughters in marriage (or rather acquiescing in the taking of their daughters, after the fact).
2. Then surrounding these conquerors as courtiers, advisors, religious adepts (after converting if needed) and flattering poets, and thereby maintaining deep influence via soft power channels.

Sounds like what our very own Rajputs did back home with those Mogools .

[Agnimitra]

Sounds like what our very own Rajputs did back home with those Mogools .

Yep, but to a much lesser extent than the Iranis.

[Agnimitra]

Massive anti-Yoga ad campaign in Iran these days. Posters and informational leaflets about how yoga and meditation are not really useful, or are even bad for physical and mental health, how yoga and meditation are inspired by Satan, etc.

Yoga is as popular in some urban areas of Iran as it is in the US.

Earlier, the Islamist campaign was that salaat/namaaz (Islamic prayer) was yoga, meditation and more, all wrapped into one, and therefore the best thing God or man ever created. But now they're saying yoga is inspired by the devil and has a bad effect on the soul.

The anti-Yoga campaign (of all things the Islamic Republic has to worry about!) has grown so shrill that now newspaper articles have begun to appear...

Its interesting, though, that they see popular Yoga as a Western fad rather than a Hindu tradition.

Economist: Iran - The perils of yoga
Conservative clerics are wary of a popular pastime

SOUTH of the gold-domed shrine of Fatima, one of Shia Islam’s most venerated places of pilgrimage in the holy city of Qom, near the old home of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Islamic Republic’s founder, stands an inconspicuous house in traditional Iranian style. In its central courtyard Masoumeh, a female yoga teacher, assumes a tree pose. Half a dozen other women, wearing the maghnaeh, the hood common to Iranian office workers, follow her example, scooping their right feet up into their hands and placing them on their left thighs. “Ladies! This position is very good for your concentration,” Masoumeh enthusiastically assures her class.

But not so good in the eyes of Iran’s stricter Muslims. Miss Mahdavi, a female commander of Qom’s baseej, the republic’s voluntary militia which—among other things—enforces propriety and political loyalty, recently organised a conference to raise awareness of “satanic plots” and to “safeguard the values and ideals of the revolution and religion.” Indeed, Hamid Reza Mazaheri-Seif, head of the Spiritual Health Institute in Qom, said that yoga’s new-age spiritualism was corrupting Islam and urged all decent Iranians, particularly members of the baseej, to protect the Islamic Republic against the “irreversible damages” yoga could cause. “The new teachers of yoga are often not even Indian,” he warned with bleak foreboding. “They’re European or American.”

According to Iran’s Yoga Association, the country has around 200 yoga centres, a quarter of them in Tehran, the capital, where groups can often be seen practising in parks—to the chagrin of religious hardliners. In 2006, during a conference of intelligence and security chiefs in Qom, yoga was named glumly as a threat to Islam.

Since then the debate over yoga has waxed and waned. But since the latest conference in Qom, Iran’s media have run several articles on yoga’s perils. Hamza Sharifi, a cleric who has written a book called “Half a Glance at Spirituality in the Yoga Cult”, believes the state should keep a watchful eye on it. “Its practitioners never accept that yoga is just a sport and insist that it is the road to happiness,” he informed the semi-official Fars News.

“It’s just talk,” says Masoumeh at the yoga centre in Qom, brushing off such criticism with an expressive wave of her hand. “They know perfectly well that the revolution will not be overturned by headstands.”

[Agnimitra]

X-posting an older post from the OIT thread:

The very first name that occurs to the student in this connection is that of the Supreme Lord Himself-Ahura-which in the Sanskrit from Asura signifies 'a demon'. The name originally signifies 'the Lord of Life' (from Av. ahu, Skt. asu, life), or the One Life from Whom all proceed. The Sanskrit Asura also signified originally the One Eternal Life, and in the Rig-Veda (in its oldest portions) it is not used in its later degraded signification.

Avesta.org has a direct link to the translation of Zoroaster's hymns by Jatindranath Chaterji. Read the introduction only
http://www.avesta.org/chatterj_opf_files/slideshow.htm

This idea of "asura" having an "originally" positive meaning in "the oldest portions" of the Veda is nonsense.
Also, what is the etymology for the claim that the word "signified originally the One Eternal Life"?

All bona fide texts on Vedic linguistics point out that asuraH can have, BOTH, a positive or negative meaning, depending purely on context.
1. asUsu + ratiH = asuraH -- one who is addicted to (the movements of) the life energy.
2. asUsu + ramati = asuraH -- one who sports in the life energies.

Both hinge on the individual's relationship with the life energy, and by extension the source of life.
It is similar to the Vedic "dAsa" which is used, both, for the bad guys as well as the good guys, each in a very different context.
-------------------------

Here's a part of a lecture by a traditional Zoroastrian priest teacher about the life of Zarathustra, in which he alludes to an OIT situation as portrayed in the traditional sources.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRaTLZxmAuk

[Agnimitra]

Some studies point out that certain features of Zoroastrianism were added later by a Magian priesthood that appointed themselves as a hereditary ecclesiastic order for the Iranic tribes. These features included some rites and rituals, do's and don'ts, things that were "good luck" and "bad omens", and most of all a hereditary priestly and aristocratic order. Need to find out more about the origin of the Magi - could offer clues about similar patterns introduced into India.

THE MAGI'S CONTRIBUTION to Zoroastrianism

2. THE MAGI'S CONTRIBUTION (to Zarathustra's concept)
The first written account about Iranians tribes is found in Assyrian military campaign annals. Their presence is attested within the western and southwestern Iranian provinces of Kurdistan and Fars during the middle of the ninth century BC As these people spread out across the plateau they gave their ethnic name to the land itself: Iran. Among the tribes was an ecclesiastic group called the Magi. At some time during or after the tribes had relocated from Central Asia onto the Iranian plateau -- exactly when is unclear -- the magi adopted the teachings of Zarathushtra. Devotees need a ritual foundation to unite them as a community, distinguished from others in adjoining lands like Assyria and Babylonia, in order to ensure survival and growth during the years ahead. The magi helped fulfil that need by modifying Zarathushtra's message to accommodate their own practices such as dislike of wild animals, reptiles, and insects, non-desecration of nature, and exposure of human corpses to the elements. Herodotus, for instance, commented in his Histories (1:101, 132-140) during the fifth century B.C. on how all these activities had originally been distinctive to the magi. At the same time, the magi used their knowledge of prayers and rites to establish themselves as the faith's hereditary priesthood.

It is among early Magian writings; particularly the Avesta Vendidad or Law Against the Demons, that variation in the notion of dualism from that set forth by Zarathushtra is initially found. At the time this ritual text was compiled, around the third century BC, substantial changes were occurring in doctrine. The Videvdad (3:14, 5:36, 7:1-27, 73 -75, 8:73-74 14:5-8, 14:2, among other passages) indicates magi justified inclusions of their socio-religious preferences within the framework of Zoroastrianism by casting upon these the notion of a dualism in which the entire cosmos was split along the lines of good and evil at both spiritual and corporal levels. Thus, certain creatures like cattle, dogs, horses, and many plants were portrayed as beneficial -- primarily because they proved useful to humans. Others such as wolves, mice, snakes, frogs, and ants came to be despised as noxious or khrafstra (after a word denoting harmful beasts used by Zarathushtra in a general sense in Gatha 28.5, 34:5,9) -- since they could harm people or crops. Beneficial creatures were said to have been created by Ahura Mazda to assist humans, whereas noxious creatures supposedly rose from Angra mainyu to injure people. Likewise, elaborate rules came to be laid down to prevent pollution of the material world. In this case the magi argued that Angra Mainyu had produced various types of defilement, particularly in the form of a corpse demoness or Druksh Nassush, whose ill effects could spread from humans and animals to fire, water, and earth. Ceremonies arose to cleanse these aspects of nature if pollution was thought to have occurred. The postulation of demonic pollution in the guise of a corpse demoness legitimized a funerary service where the corpse of a Zoroastrian would be left exposed to undergo desiccation so that it could no longer be inhabited by the demoness nor spread pollution to those who touch it. Exposure of the dead bodies originally took place either in the wilderness or on hilltops. Latter, as the practice became more standardized, funerary towers would be erected and corpses placed therein. Fear of pollution was not confined to aspects of corporeal existence, for magi suggested that contamination while alive resulted in spiritual imperfection hindering the soul during the afterlife as well. To prevent this, a range of purification rituals were invented to exorcise evil. Some like padyab or simple cleansing take a few minutes to perform; others, like the barashum I no shab last for nine days and nights.
The Achaemenian king Darius 1 had displayed a tendency toward cosmic dualism, in the sixth century BC, equating rebellion against his rule to a rejection of Ahura Mazda's righteousness and an acceptance of falsehood: "The lie made them rebellious" (Behistun Inscription 4:34). Yet, even by early Sasanian times dualism does not appear to have become the most central feature of Zoroastrian doctrine. Dualist ideas were not mentioned in the inscriptions of Shapur I during the middle of the third century A.D. But, as subsequent Sasanian kings faced other claimants to the throne they were increasingly compelled to turn to Zoroastrian religion and its clergy for validation of authority. Narseh would, therefore refer to his adversary Wahram III as having seized the throne " through falsehood and [with the assistance] of Ahreman and the demons" (Paikuli Inscription sec 4). Doctrines and rituals of cosmic dualism, which portrayed the Sasanians as divinely chosen rulers whose duty was to further the cause of good within their realm, proved useful in wielding power. Royal support helped consolidate cosmic or universal dualistic views in Iranian society, especially at a time when the magi were themselves rejecting many prevailing practices as heterodox and imposing their own view of orthodoxy on the general population.

Eventually, the nexus between dualism, ritual, and power resulted in a cosmogonic myth postulating all forms of evil -- including death, decay, pollution, and insubordination -- had been cast upon corporeal life by Angra Mainyu when the hostile spirit invaded the material world. This myth's generic version has roots in very old Proto-Indo-European sacrificial custom. Zoroastrian theologians and storytellers gave the tale a particular dualistic twist, whereby Ahura Mazda reproduced living things after Angra Mainyu slaughtered the first ones. For his destructive actions, Angra Mainyu came to be scorned as the Gannag Menog or corrupt spirit. By the Middle Ages, this myth dramatically presented the origins of an unmitigated ongoing struggle between the good forces of Ahura Mazda -- led by reigning kings and orthodox priests, followed by pious persons and beneficial creatures -- against evil powers of Angra Mainyu -- united around false kings and heterodox priest, assisted by corrupt people and noxious beasts. The Bundahishn, in which the doctrine of cosmic dualism reached its literary zenith, commences: "[Herein is] information from the Zand, beginning with the fundamentalness of Ahura Mazda and the evilness of Gannag Menog." This Book of Primal Creation then details the irreconcilable dualism between Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu (1:1-59), before recording how evil entered the material world and will be banished from the cosmos at the end of time in an eschatological sequence where humans gain eternal life for having assisted Ahura Mazda. Given that dualism was viewed by medieval Zoroastrians as all embracing, and evil and pollution feared as ever present in the world, customs would be prescribed by the magi to safeguard the routine acts of life -- from sex, childbirth, and menstruation, to eating bathing and grooming. Each new prescription found justification as assisting asha and Ahura Mazda in vanquishing durg and Angra Mainyu, thus ensuring passage for human soul to heaven. These rules and observance became part of the Zoroastrian lifestyle, carefully overseen by priests. In this manner, through mythology, rites, and politics, dualism was gradually extended from an ethical disjunction between righteousness and sinfulness in the spiritual world (Pahlavi: menog) to a cosmic struggle between good and evil within the material world (Pahlavi: getig).

Of course, not all Zoroastrians living in the Middle Ages subscribed to the absolute form of dualism that had augmented the prophet's original ethical version. Given the narrow corpus of extant sources -- most of which were drafted by members of a few related priestly families residing in southwest Iran -- it is not fully clear how constantly popular this extremism was among the common masses or even within how constantly popular this extremism was among the common masses or even within noble and intellectual circles. Perhaps the slow but steady spread of Zurvanism, which sought to depict Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu as dualistic twins born from a singular spiritual being or God of time named Zurvan, reflected a desire for a return to the more fluid ethical dualism or even a change to a variety of quasi-monotheism. Possibly present within Zoroastrianism since the Achaemenian era, Zurvanite views appear to have penetrated the highest rank of Iranian society during the final centuries of Sasanian rule even enjoying a degree of official favor. But Zurvanism faded after the Muslim conquest of Iran (seventh to eight century A.D.), perhaps because its monotheist doctrine left followers open to espousing parallel views in Islam.

Uncontested as the orthodox form of Zoroastrian doctrine, cosmic dualism could survive unhindered even as Islam spread among the Zoroastrian population of Iran. The ninth century magus Zadspram i Juwanjaman, for one, reproduced a wholly dualist version of this cataclysmic struggle in his Wizidagiha or selections (3:1-47) -- a passage that suggests he did not subscribe to the monotheism prevailing among Zurvanite Zoroastrians. In that book's opening chapter too, the cosmic dualism that was believed to separate Ahura Mazda from Angra Mainyu is forcefully conveyed to readers through a scene in which the creator God rebuffs his opponent with the word: "You are not omnipotent, lie" (1:6). Zoroastrian, who migrated from Iran to the western shores of India around AD 936, namely the Parsis, carried this priestly doctrine with them. As a result, when the Sanjan magus Neryosang Dhaval translated the Yasna into Sanskrit in the late eleventh or early twelfth century AD, the comparative terminology of the Gathas was comprehended in superlative form: "a highest one and a degraded one" (30:3) and "the greatest Hormijda addressed the murderous Ahramana thus " (45:2). During the fifteenth century AD, once Zoroastrians had declined numerically in Iran but Parsi immigrants had firmly established themselves on the Indian subcontinent; the magi renewed efforts aimed at ensuring that neither the doctrine nor the praxis of cosmic dualism would be forgotten. Communication with Iranian priests provided Zoroastrians residing in Indian with Darab Hormazyar's Rivayats (also known as the Persian Rivayats), treatises in which the eternal division between good and evil was repeatedly stressed. One selection reads: " The path of Spenta Mainyu is the work of Ahura Mazda, bright and fearless ? The path of Gannag Menog is the work of Angra Mainyu and [his] demons, full of corruption and darkness" (p.20).

Only with the advent of Protestant Christian missionaries to Iran and India did the doctrine of cosmic dualism, and the elaborate rites it had spawned, slowly begin to attenuate. The Rahbar -I din-I Jarthushti or Guide to the Zoroastrian Religion, composed in Gujarati by a nineteenth century AD high priest Erachji Sohrabji Meherjirana, is one literary example where dualism is scarcely evident -- indeed Angra Mainyu is mentioned once (pp. 21-22). The writings of Ervads like Sir Jivanji Jamshedji Modi, in his 1911 text A Catechism of the Zoroastrian Religion, and Godrej Dinshaw Sidhwa, in his 1985 work Discourses on Zoroastrianism, have further refocused Zoroastrian beliefs away from cosmic dualism. The sharp decline in frequency with which purification rituals are undergone in India and Iran during recent years is an accompanying behavioral change. Many contemporary Zoroastrians have reverted to ethical rather than cosmic explanation of their faith's dualistic tenets. Others have turned to monotheism where Ahura Mazda is viewed as the ultimate origin of all creatures and events, good or evil. The latter individuals often object to discussions of dualism in the religion, feeling it suggests that their ancestors believed in two deities rather than venerating one creator God as Zoroaster had always proposed.

[Agnimitra]

^^^ More on the "Magi" - to try to discern the links between Babylonian and other Middle-Eastern priesthoods and the ancient Indo-Iranian spectrum. The Magi are also invoked to lend credibility to the advent of Christ figure in Bethlehem.

Encyclopedia Britannica: Magus, pl. Magi

It is disputed whether the magi were from the beginning followers of Zoroaster and his first propagandists. They do not appear as such in the trilingual inscription of Bīsitūn, in which Darius the Great describes his speedy and final triumph over the magi who had revolted against his rule (522 bc). Rather it appears that they constituted a priesthood serving several religions. The magi were a priestly caste during the Seleucid, Parthian, and Sāsānian periods; later parts of the Avesta, such as the ritualistic sections of the Vidēvdāt (Vendidad), probably derive from them. From the 1st century ad onward the word in its Syriac form (magusai) was applied to magicians and soothsayers, chiefly from Babylonia, with a reputation for the most varied forms of wisdom. As long as the Persian empire lasted there was always a distinction between the Persian magi, who were credited with profound and extraordinary religious knowledge, and the Babylonian magi, who were often considered to be outright imposters.

Wiki - Magi

An unrelated term, but previously assumed to be related, appears in the older Gathic Avestan language texts. This word, adjectival magavan meaning "possessing maga-", was once the premise that Avestan maga- and Median (i.e. Old Persian) magu- were co-eval (and also that both these were cognates of Vedic Sanskrit magha-). While "in the Gathas the word seems to mean both the teaching of Zoroaster and the community that accepted that teaching," and it seems that Avestan maga- is related to Sanskrit magha-, "there is no reason to suppose that the western Iranian form magu (Magus) has exactly the same meaning"[4] as well.

But it "may be, however," that Avestan moghu (which is not the same as Avestan maga-) "and Medean magu were the same word in origin, a common Iranian term for 'member of the tribe' having developed among the Medes the special sense of 'member of the (priestly) tribe', hence a priest."

[Agnimitra]

More interesting narratives about the Magi -

THE MAGI - A SHORT HISTORY

When the Medes stormed Babylon, as related in the Book of Daniel, they incorporated the Bel worshipping Ephraimite Chaldees into their culture. These Chaldees became Zoroastrian magi, and thus the Israelites became associated with Zoroastrianism. Martin Haug writes in 'The Sacred Language, Writings, and Religions of the Parsis' (pp. 16): "The Magi are said to have called their religion Kesh-i-Ibrahim. They traced their religious books to Abraham, who was believed to have brought them from heaven". The Israelite association explains the existence of a Jewish sect called the Essenes, whose members learned Zoroastrian doctrines. Jesus was an Essene, and Zoroastrian magi were deeply involved in the establishment of Christianity. It is very likely that the magi who converted to Christianity were those of Ephraimite descent. Certainly the magian establishment in Persia remained Zoroastrian, and did not approve of them. The magian Christians were Manichaeans with ideas that contradicted both Zoroastrians and Christians. 'Before the Burning Times', a history of medieval magian culture, relates:

"Many of the more stubborn adherents were persecuted and executed in Sassania. That was until they banded together and retaliated against the magian hierarchy, launched military attacks against them, then migrated westward, out of Persia and Iran. The only problem is that once they arrived in Christian Byzantium's outer provinces, they found themselves assailed by Christian forces....

"Wherever they went to escape the violence of their many persecutors (whether Zoroastrians or Christians), the magian Christians were progressively exterminated, as at Anatolia where 100,000 were crucified in reprisals by Byzantine Christian troops. On top of that a further 200,000 were repatriated into the Balkans, into a plague city, where it was hoped that the last of them would die. But the plague lifted and these 200,000 extremely anti-Catholic, anti-Orthodox 'heretics' had found a new home...

More here: The Achaemenids and Magi

And here: History of Media and Persia

[Agnimitra]

From the first link above, a clue about Abrahamic Islamic and Christian (and Jewish) interest in Kashmir. Centuries ago many Aurangzebs were especially anxious to convert Kashmiris -

Les Gosling writes of the Zoroastrian magi:

"They were astrologers of the first rank, and their influence was known over the ancient world. Providing occult information to the Medo-Persians and Babylonians at a kingly level (Strabo, XVI, 762; Cicero, De Divin., 1, 41) the magi even made inroads into areas of Kashmir where ancient Israelites had established a colony. By the sixth century B.C.E. they had acquired power to overturn governments (Herodotus, III, 61 sq.)." I recently wrote a letter to a man named Olaf Hage who has a website called 'The Chapel Perilous'. He was planning to open a page on the Zoroastrian magi, and I was struck by his announcement that they were Ephraimites. I received the following response from Mr. Hage:

"The ancient 'G'KIM' of Daniel's and Joseph's times (the Biblical 'Magi') are hardly Persian in origin. The Persians captured them when they took Babylon, as Daniel relates. Babylon had taken them from Assyria in 612 B.C.E. Assyria had captured them from Israel, as they report on their tablets. Israel traced them back to Ephraim, the heir of Joseph, who was made their chief in Egypt, as Genesis states."

The Magi are considered progeny of Shem, son of Noah.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from "Who are the fronts and behinds of the ISI(P/S/?)" Thread

The problem with Eyeran is that they arent much better either. I read some Piskology book whose name I forget, about how the Eyeranian Ayatollahs think. They view themselves through the Persian lens and are an expansionist power. They have this huge persecution complex (dating back to Ali) of how the world has conspired to cut them to size and deny one united Eyeran from the Indus till the Red sea. They act that way too. All with the population of Tamil Nadu! While Tamil Nadu is mourning that Amma is in Jail and doing tearful swear ins and drowning the sorrow with white-saree-jiggling-thighs-songs on TV, Eyeran funds Hezbollah (when their economy is down the pakistan, somehow they find time, energy and money to fund and maintain pretty much a huge paramilitary abroad). They tied up with Syria to bump off a few like Rafiq Hariri. Heck, they even sent a few of their agents to bomb an Israeli diplomat's car in Desh!

Think about it from Eyeran's eyes. Millenia old civilization tied up in knots by a camel rider who seduced a man from birtannia, overthrew the ottomans, conquered the Arabian peninsula and signed a peace treaty with Massa. Pretty much the Sunni-western nexus has defeated the Persian empire.

Now one has to think carefully what is better? Shia hordes who finally reclaim their oil rich lands from the Saudi monarchs, take half of Eyeraq, all of Syria, fund the Kurds to give major Takleef to turkey?

Shias usually are willing to use Islamist methods against Kufr!
Sunnis usually are willing to use Islamist methods against both Kufr and Shia!

Shias fight Kufr to show themselves as part of Ummah and if possible one of the leaders of Ummah!
Sunnis fight Shia to "purify" Islam and Sunnis fight Kufr, for the simply reason that they are Muslims and don't know better.

Kufr can adopt two mutually exclusive strategies:

a) Support Shia. This prolongs the fight for the soul of Islam, and deviates the fight away from Kufr. It does not really solve the problem of Islam though, nor does it change Shia's desire for Kufr blood as their proof of momeenity.

b) Support Sunni: This puts Shia under an ever increasing sense of siege and helplessness! This can lead to two diametrically opposite consequences! The Iranian resistance to Sunnis can snap and they give in, ultimately also embracing Sunni sect, OR the Iranians can turn away from Islam altogether feeling betrayed and in fact preyed upon by Islam! Second alternative is possible only if they have some fight left in them and there is a credible alternative. However if Iran is under siege and at the same time undergoing a transformation/conversion which lacks complete consensus, as is bound to be the case, then Iran would become still weaker and possibly fall to Sunnis anyway due to civil war! However if Iran can purge Islam successfully and not fall to the Sunnis, then it can be turned into a mighty resistance against Islam in the heart of Middle East. But there are too many risks in this alternative.

The only good that can come out of a complete Sunni takeover is that Kufr would stop believing in using sect as a strategy to keep Muslims in check, and they would have to see Islam as a whole as the Enemy!

So what should the Kufr do?

[Arjun]

Think about it from Eyeran's eyes. Millenia old civilization .....

Bah, humbug ! That's like Pakis claiming inheritance of Indus Valley Civilization, which happens to be older than the Persian one for that matter.

The small band of true inheritors of the Persian civilization that is alive today, is mostly found in India.

[Ardeshir]

There are still Zoroastrian communities in places like Yazd, and there are many movements within Iran which are looking to rediscover a Persian past, but they are few and far between. Most of these see Islam as an Arab imposition and therefore much inferior to the great Persian history and heritage. Even to this day, a most devout Iranian mullah looks down upon the Arabs as 'dirty' so that is civilisational baggage.

But that apart, the true inheritors of the Persian civilization are indeed in India.

[Agnimitra]

X-post from Pzzie thread:

About the Sydney gunman:

I was expectantly looking for a connection to the Land of Pure but am surprised at the Iranian one. I thought the Isis regarded the Shia as non believers, so how come the Shia guy is supporting Isis?

ex-Shia, he converted to Sunni Islam.

I see this is happening a lot among Irani youth. From a 2012 post:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1334199

But even many devout Iranian Shi'a are rejecting the kinks of their ideology - and gravitating to a slightly better forms of shi'ism or even a flat out Sunni-like ideology.

When the intensely religious Irani youth gets disillusioned by the hypocrisy of the marj'a-e'taqleeds, they reject that part of the theology. [According to Shi'ism, everyone must have a Guru - marj'a-e-taqleed - someone whose risalah is to be 'imitated' in daily life.] So when Shi'ia reject the institution of Guruship, they generally gravitate to a more individual and impersonal form of Islamism that falls squarely within the grey overlap with Turkish Sunni Naqshbandi Islam.

Gulenism has already spread its net in that space by adopting and digesting several Shi'a practices.

[Agnimitra]

An interesting dialectic about the neurotic competition in "iconoclasm" occurs between the Roman Christians and the Persian Zoroastrians:

The worship of the sun, moon, stars, fire and all the good creation

... The material world is therefore good and divine. This per Ugo Bianchi, “pro-cosmic” view of the material creation sets Zoroastrianism markedly apart from many other religions or philosophical systems.

In Zoroastrianism, It is therefore perfectly legitimate to worship any of Ahûrá Mazdá’s spiritual and material creations because ultimately they derive from him and comprise his substance.

One worships Ahûrá Mazdá by fervently worshipping his creations. Because the material world ultimately derives from Ahûrá Mazdá, it is of the utmost importance to keep it pure. Looking after and maintaining the purity of the material creation is the way of worshiping its creator.

Homage paid to the material world was/is one of the most distinctive features of the Mazdá worshiping religion.

Magis or Zoroastrian Priests of the Sassanid Empire demanded of the Zoroastrian apostates who had converted to Christianity, that they should revert to their old faith and prove that they had done so by fervently worshipping the elements specially; “heat of fire, good waters, the victorious sun and the glorious moon.”

Such fervent worship was the ultimate proof of the fervent worship of and intense yearning for Mazdá Ahûrá. But for the Christians such passionate veneration toward nature was to be rejected as pure idolatry. Hence, they first described Zoroastrians as fire worshipers, moon worshipers and sun worshipers...

1. So the Zoroastrian monotheism retains the Vedic idea of worship via the 5 elements, but introduces exclusivity of deity name and form. This was in order to differentiate from the Sapta Sindhu (Hafta Hendu) civilization from which it developed as a schism after internecine warfare.

2. The Romans later invented and weaponized Christian monotheism as a form of mobilization and a devourer of nations, in order to counter Zoroastrian monotheism, which had done the same in the Middle East, had already influenced Judaism deeply, and was making inroads among Arab tribes. However, the Romans had to "outdo" their competitor brand in its "exclusivity" of worship.

3. The Roman Christian position was then adopted and taken further by neo-Arab Islam.

[ramana]

NPR is having a series on Steve Inskeep travelling in Iran this week. He gets to meet a lot of street folks and carries on his interviews.

His commentary is off course US speak.

[ramana]

X-post...

Faced with a Sunni Bum & Israeli bum, Iran can & should turn to Bharat for nuclear protection!

And what do the Iranians think about that proposition!! They believe that they will protect India, as according to them the Indian subcontinent is meant to be part of their Persian empire!!

Iran's Grand Strategy

Last month, a senior adviser to Iranian President Hassan Rouhani spoke at a conference in Tehran on “Iran, Nationalism, History, and Culture.” The adviser made clear that Iran’s ambition is to become a regional hegemon — in short, to reestablish the Persian empire.

The adviser, Ali Younesi — who was head of intelligence for former president Mohammad Khatami — told conference attendees, “Since its inception, Iran has [always] had a global [dimension]. It was born an empire. Iran’s leaders, officials and administrators have always thought in the global” dimension.

Younesi defined the territory of the Iranian empire, which he called “Greater Iran,” as reaching from the borders of China and including the Indian subcontinent, the north and south Caucasus and the Persian Gulf. He said Iraq is the capital of the Iranian Empire — a reference to the ancient city of Babylon, in present-day Iraq, which was the center of Persian life for centuries.

“We are protecting the interests of [all] the people in the region — because they are all Iran’s people,” he said. “We must try to once again spread the banner of Islamic-Iranian unity and peace in the region. Iran must bear this responsibility, as it did in the past.”

Younesi said that the aim of Iranian actions in “Greater Iran” was to ensure the security of the people there, adding that Saudi Arabia has nothing to fear from Iran’s actions because the Saudis are incapable of defending the people of the region. He also said that anything that enters Iran is improved by becoming Iranian, particularly Islam itself, adding that Islam in its Iranian-Shiite form is the pure Islam, since it has shed all traces of Arabism.

[ramana]

Iran's Grand Strategy
By Michael Morell April 3


Michael Morell was acting and deputy director of the Central Intelligence Agency from 2010 to 2013.

One of the interesting aspects of international affairs is that states and nonstate actors will occasionally say publicly exactly what they are thinking, doing and planning to do. No need for spies, no need for diplomats — just a need to listen.

In the mid-1990s, Osama bin Laden said repeatedly that he saw the United States as his most important enemy and therefore as his key target. Bin Laden delivered on these warnings in August 1998 in East Africa, in October 2000 in Yemen and in September 2001 in New York and Washington.

In a hotly contested election campaign in early 1998, India’s Bharatiya Janata Party told voters in its platform that, if elected, it would openly deploy nuclear weapons. Once the BJP was in office, analysts played down the nuclear plank as campaign rhetoric. They were proved wrong in May 1998 when India conducted multiple underground nuclear tests, becoming a declared nuclear weapons state.

The world recently witnessed another moment of such candor — and it came just weeks before Iran and world powers agreed to a framework for how to handle Iran’s nuclear program over the next 10 to 15 years. Last month, a senior adviser to Iranian President Hassan Rouhani spoke at a conference in Tehran on “Iran, Nationalism, History, and Culture.” The adviser made clear that Iran’s ambition is to become a regional hegemon — in short, to reestablish the Persian empire.

{{BTW Shah of Iran had same plan in 1976 (Cyrus 2500 years celebrations) and got dethroned by unleashing Khomeini on him!}

The adviser, Ali Younesi — who was head of intelligence for former president Mohammad Khatami — told conference attendees, “Since its inception, Iran has [always] had a global [dimension]. It was born an empire. Iran’s leaders, officials and administrators have always thought in the global” dimension.

Younesi defined the territory of the Iranian empire, which he called “Greater Iran,” as reaching from the borders of China and including the Indian subcontinent, the north and south Caucasus and the Persian Gulf. He said Iraq is the capital of the Iranian Empire — a reference to the ancient city of Babylon, in present-day Iraq, which was the center of Persian life for centuries.

{Saddam's last words were supposed to be "Beware of the Persians!"}


“We are protecting the interests of [all] the people in the region — because they are all Iran’s people,” he said. “We must try to once again spread the banner of Islamic-Iranian unity and peace in the region. Iran must bear this responsibility, as it did in the past.”

Younesi said that the aim of Iranian actions in “Greater Iran” was to ensure the security of the people there, adding that Saudi Arabia has nothing to fear from Iran’s actions because the Saudis are incapable of defending the people of the region. He also said that anything that enters Iran is improved by becoming Iranian, particularly Islam itself, adding that Islam in its Iranian-Shiite form is the pure Islam, since it has shed all traces of Arabism.

These are not the views of a single individual. They are shared widely among Iranian elites. They are also not new. They stretch back decades and are deeply rooted in Iranian society and Persian culture.

Younesi’s speech was an outline of Iran’s grand strategy. And, most important, it puts into context Iran’s behavior in the region — largely covert operations to undermine its Arab neighbors, Israel and the United States, the countries that stand in the way of its pursuit of hegemony.

Iran conducts terrorism as a tool of statecraft — it is one of the only countries in the world to do so — largely against its neighbors. An Iranian plot to assassinate the Saudi ambassador to the United States in a Georgetown restaurant was foiled in 2011. Iran supports international terrorist groups, including Hezbollah, which was behind the 1983 attacks on the U.S. Embassy and Marine barracks in Beirut that killed 258 Americans. These attacks are seen as the beginning of Islamic jihad against the United States as well as the start of the use of suicide car and truck bombs.


Hezbollah’s stated reason for its existence is to destroy Israel. This is also Iranian state policy. Iran’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the most powerful person in the country, said in a speech in Tehran in late 2013, “Zionist officials cannot be called humans; they are like animals, some of them. The Israeli regime is doomed to failure and annihilation.”

{Iranian rhetoric is to dominate the Sunni Arabs who so far have failed multiple times with vast armies against Israel}


Iran also provides support to Shiite groups in the region with the intent of reinforcing Shiite-led governments or overthrowing Sunni Arab regimes. Tehran’s extensive support has assisted Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s killing of more than 100,000 of his own citizens. Iran’s support to Shiite militia groups during the Iraq war resulted in the deaths of hundreds of U.S. servicemen there. One of Iran’s proxies, the Houthis, recently overthrew the popularly elected government in Yemen.

{Yemen is about Pax Arabica and whether it will exist or collapse. Pax Arabica is redux and was overthrown by Persians and Turks. The Brits established it after overthrow of Ottoman Turkey. And its an unnatural power existing with Anglo-Saxon gunboat diplomacy. After UK left Aden, US 5th Fleet sailed into Bahrain.}


This grand strategy, of course, is inconsistent with U.S. interests, and Iran knows that. At the conference, Younesi said that Iran was operating in Greater Iran against Sunni Islamic extremism, as well as against the Saudi Wahhabis, Turkey, secularists, Western rule and Zionism.

The nuclear framework agreement announced Thursday is a good deal for the United States. If fully implemented by Iran, it will push Iran’s breakout time to produce a weapon from just a few months to beyond a year, while making it difficult for Iran to cheat. But it will also, once sanctions are lifted, give Iran more resources to pursue its grand strategy, as outlined so clearly by Younesi. It has always been important that the United States and our allies have a policy to counter this strategy and contain Iran — and now it is even more important that we do so.

{These are contradictory aims!}

I think kudos to BRF for having this thread so long ago that the world is only now understanding..

BTW in the Tower Commission Report appendices there is an interview with an unnamed Iranian foreign policy interlocutor and the US officials which says the same thing about their ambitions.


I lost my copy and need to buy it again.

[Agnimitra]

Diet is such a fundamental cultural thing. It can be a little surprising to learn about this aspect of Zoroastrianism:

Vegetarianism in the gathas and the primary Zoroastrian Texts

Zarathustra was also supposedly against ritual animal sacrifice, like the Buddha.

[Prem]

Diet is such a fundamental cultural thing. It can be a little surprising to learn about this aspect of Zoroastrianism:Vegetarianism in the gathas and the primary Zoroastrian TextsZarathustra was also supposedly against ritual animal sacrifice, like the Buddha.

Yima lies and commits treachery (drüj.) = Droh= treachery
Then the second savior, Öshidarmah, OShid= medicine, healing Dharmah
Sassanid High Fire Priest “Atúrpat-e Ömeetan in Denkard BookVI. Pate or Pati=Swami=owner_keepr
úrvar khvarishn bväd shóma mardóman kú diir.zivishn bvä= Wrvar= Soil, Land, fruit, Zivi=Jeewan, life

Tani= Tan=Body.

[Agnimitra]

X-posting from Understanding Islam thread -

What possibilities of identity do Iran's "Arya"-enthusiasts have to offer for this and other racial minorities in a modified Iran? None, because they have completely bought into the Western colonial race-based distortion of "Aryan".

I was reading a book on "Islam and Slavery in South Asia" by Indranil Bhattacharya and Richard Eaton. The latter is a well known apologist for Islam in Deccan and Bengal.

The key fact I got was Islam extirpated a large number of Ethiopians as slaves and inducted them into Indian sub-continent. They are called habshis.

So the West extirpated natives from west coast of Africa and Islam did the same to North East coast of Africa.

Need to study the twin de-populations that Africa suffered.

While the West has done mea culpa, Islam has been hiding under the poverty tag.

Islam pioneered slave trade, in Africa and elsewhere. Plenty of African slaves found in Iran also.
In Africa, the slaves were taken not just from East Africa, but from far West also.
In Islam, enslavement and Islamization go hand-in-hand -- as per the scriptures itself, non-Arabs are brought towards Allah in chains. It was enumerated as one of the mercies of Allah towards the Arabs who accept Allah and his Prophet. The slaves, who then become mawalis.
Thus, just like guns-and-Bibles, swords-and-sufis went hand in hand as part of Islamist colonization policy.

Here's an example of an Afro-Iranian - descendent of black slaves in Iran. Today, they are a discriminated minority whose work is mainly to play a certain set of wind instruments and dance at wedding parties, or act like clowns to entertain:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_iiHVN7x5k



Racism in Middle Eastern countries against blacks can be far worse than Europe. An Iranian-American friend of mine told me that when he was a young boy in Iran in the 60's, an Afro-American was once jogging down a bylane in Tehran, and he and his friends promptly began hurling racist epithets - and stones.

Iranian literature, such as the Abu Moslem Nameh, are full of racist abuse and ridicule against dark skinned peoples. I had written about this on BRF:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1245941

Such literature has its own genre in Iran. In the above epic, the Iranian 'good' Muslim hero needs to build a warchest to fight off the Arab 'bad' Muslim villians. So he goes to a place of dark-skinned people - some scholars say Malabar coast of India, others say Ethiopia. There, the chief's daughter immediately falls for his good looks and says, "daddy! daddy! I want to marry him." So the chief sets a simple test for the hero, who no doubt passes it with flying colours. Then he collects the booty and more, and makes off with it - leaving behind a crying and brokenhearted girl and her father. This is supposed to be comedy - because it then goes into a description of her ugliness - her dark skin, her non-silky hair, her misshapen breasts, etc., and so our hero is naturally disgusted by them and in an extra-hurry to get the hell out of there - with all their wealth, of course. And so on.

Throughout the ages, Arabs, Iranians and Turks also competed with one another to procure wives from the Caucasus or Eastern Europe.

Afro-Iran - the unknown minority

A trip to a place which is inhabited and dominated by the descendants of slaves and traders from Africa.

[Gus]

when you look at major old cultures, iran is like in the middle,

the aztecs, mayans, incans culture etc have completely wiped out, even if some of their dna survived. india has survived and still has hope. iran is like in the middle, they have embraced islam, but found a way to not integrate with sunni arab islam.

our problem is, shia theology can lead to shia muslims do the same stuff that sunni muslim jihadists do - but not right now. at least in india it does not, but in ME it does, as hezbollah is similar to a sunni arab group in how it looks at kufr.

regardless of all that, i think iran has managed to keep itself afloat and their influence has been rising in the past decade in the region around iran.

[RajeshA]

Agnimitra ji,

My conclusion has been that Iranian racism is aesthetics based - color and features, with bucketful of cultural and impirial arrogance.

Arab racism is more xenophobia. Arabs actually used to be quite proud oof their tribal purity and their dark complexion. It was Turkish desire to ape Iranian aesthetics that led Turks to become awed of white skin, which they tried to acquire through cross-breeding with Iranians and their fairer subjects in Southeast Europe.

I think the Ottoman dominance over the Arabs and later European colonization had an effect on the psyche of the Arabs, at least on the Hashemites.