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 Post subject: PAK-FA and FGFA Thread
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 02:15 
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Click Source for Hi-Resolution: http://planeman-bluffersguide.blogspot.com/


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 02:54 
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Another rendering from Parlay's Webpage..
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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 03:58 
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Anoop. A. wrote:
NRao wrote:
The worst thing seems to be misinformation ................................

Image



Is it just me or is there two external fuel pods(???) on that F-22?...........i didnt know that F-22 even has slots for underwing pylons.


Those are definitely drop tanks.

Here is another picture of F-22 with drop tanks:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aYAUsn-hXgc/S ... 2_Bear.jpg

In the accompanying article, the author talks about the fuel penalties of having an internal weapons bay.

p.s. That blog is really good.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 05:22 
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SaiK wrote:
Are those pylons [ref: sumshyam's first pic] at the either ends concealed too?


I hope so...because that is where the mystery triangular pylon kind of structure is placed...!

Anyhow Igor has written such information in his edited blog.

Quote:
According to the most reliable estimations, T-50 has 10 internal and 2 additional external hardpoints on the wings (the 'mystery' triangle thickening under the wings).


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 05:40 
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here is a possible two-seater version of the bird...!

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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 06:05 
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Something in original.

Translation ::

Quote:
Russian 5-th generation begins to take off

Sukhoi implemented on January 29th flight of the prototype T-50, the embodiment of Moscow's ambitions to create a machine gaining dominance in the air, comparable to the F-22 Raptor.

Historic event. It happened Jan. 29 in Komsomolsk-on Amur, where the extreme "newborn" Sukhoi made its takeoff. The prototype T-50, developed under the state program PAK FA and manned by Sergei Bogdanov, leaving the land for a test flight lasting 47 minutes. After a terse communique, issued on the occasion of Sukhoi, the flight was "successful, in full accordance with the objectives. The first flight was carried out to verify the "maneuverability aircraft, the normal operation of engines and main systems of the aircraft, as well as cleaning and opening the chassis. So, this is from the KnAAPO plant in Komsomolsk, the cradle of the Su-27, Su-30MK, Su-35 and the Superjet-100, where "the newborn" made its maiden flight. Translation testing program in the flight test center in Zhukovsky, outside Moscow, should occur in the coming months in order to successfully conduct more extensive tests.

New generation of combat aircraft, T-50, is the embodiment of Moscow's ambitions to obtain machine gaining dominance in the air, comparable to the American F-22 Raptor. In the official publications of the "dry" describes the main characteristics of the future PAK FA in the following manner: the ability to strike air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, air-to-surface missiles in all conditions, exclusive mavrennost, including and at supersonic speed, a small reflecting surface in radar, optical and infrared ranges, and finally, the ability to use shorter runways for take-off and landing.

At what seemed 5-th Russian generation? If you compare it with the Su-27UB, which served as an aircraft maintenance during the first flight, you may now make a fairly accurate idea of the size T-50. The machine is generally smaller than the family "Flankerov, displaying a wingspan of about 14 meters and a length close to 20 meters. Takeoff weight machines without external suspension is about 21-22 tons, giving Thus Ratio of thrust-mass "of about 1.4, thanks to two turbines develops a unit capacity of 15 tons. Maximum takeoff weight T-50 can be estimated at 30 tons, with a useful range of flight of 3000 miles without refueling and external fuel tanks.

Photos and video materials published by the developer, confirmed the general appearance, the half-open in spring 2007, the figure of the artist, transiently published on the website motoroproizvoditelya Saturn. One can imagine that this figure was from a presentation to the official Indian delegation. Despite the jump in generations, you can see the "paw" Sukhoi "in the T-50: two strongly separated turbines, rectangular air intakes, elevated front part of the fuselage, the impressive" boom "behind the twin keel, opto-electronic ball, etc.

The main differences are glaring when we examine the car top and bottom. According to early estimates, the aircraft has a delta wing with rounded endings, swept about 53 ° and the edges of the end (? Do not know precisely how to translate "bords de fuite" - ACh) with a negative sweep at 10 °. The wing is increased due to significant slat, the front part of which is mobile and is the vortex generator - an innovative solution was presented in the figures, published in n ° 2200 Air & Cosmos. They replace the front Lockers canard "of Su-30 and, in general, reproducing their overall shape. Vertical empennage consists of two keels greatly reduced size, angled out at about 25 °, fully mobile and reproducing the form of such basic wing. All types of aircraft are organized, like the F-22, so that sopryach angles of attack and the expiration of focus and reflection of incident radar waves in a small number of directions.

No provision of certain extreme solutions, search invisibility nevertheless expressed in the transportation of arms in a closed compartment, the profiling of air in the ducts guessed the form of "S" for the screening of compressor blades in the forward hemisphere and in front of fizelyazha made of flat surfaces, which prevents not recall the F-35. Other details will be improved Sukhoi, such as the hood cab, basic metal frame which should disappear in the mass-produced versions, and applications of radar wave absorbing coatings. According to Russia's TV, "Sukhoi said that the ESR T-50 should be 40 times smaller than the Su-30.

Armament. First photos of T-50 can see the two compartments for weapons, placed tandem at the bottom of the fuselage and occupy all the space, which was the Su-30 from the nose landing gear to the turbine nozzles. With a length of about 4,7 meters and a width greater than 1 meter for each of the compartments can hold two missiles, air-to-air high (Type 810) or medium-range (K-77М), or two rockets at an air-to-surface X 38М or protivoradarnye X-58USHK. Three years ago (the first images date from the summer of 2007), Su-47 Berkut was seen in flight with a new compartment for weapons, the length of 4,7 meters and a width of 0,9 meters - in a configuration that enabled us to test compartment for the T-50.

In addition to these two tandem compartments prototype T-50 also demonstrates the two "build-up", rather narrow, under the wing feathers, which can serve to accommodate the short-range missiles (R-73/K-74) each. At the same time, the lack of cover, noticeable on the test plane, allows to think that we can talk about the containers that contain electronic equipment, such as electronic warfare equipment or lateral radar. Under the wings also provided for fastening 6 additional hardpoints, including 2 under the air intakes.

Avionics. The development of electronic systems, T-50 is proceeding as planned pace, primarily due to ongoing work on the program Su-35 (two flight of the prototype in 2008), which earlier versions of PAK FA must have the same basic avionics, primarily in regard to the dashboard of the cab and navigation and communication equipment.

At the same time T-50 must be equipped with a new onboard radar that are qualified as "mnogofuktsionalnaya. Named SH121 and developed in NIIP them. Tikhomirov, this system was first introduced to the air show MAKS-2009 (see the Air & Cosmos n ° 2184). It should consist of five AFAR: three located in front of the fuselage (one front and 2 side, working in a wave X band - the configuration originally envisaged in the program of the F-22A) and two working in the L wave band, located at the leading edge wings. The system, which according to NIIP may be supplemented by radar, operating in the wave range Ka (millimeter) and placed in a container. Detection and Recognition of aerial targets are also possible due to optical-electronic "ball" is characteristic of the family "Flankerov, placed in front of the cockpit and had already marked on the prototype T-50, the system is designed to UOMZ in Yekaterinburg.

Engines. Currently, the prototype T-50 driven by two turbines, the AL-41F1 (item 117), each of which develops 14.7 tons of thrust. This engine is an improved version of AL-41FS (117C), 14.2 tons of thrust, which is equipped with Su-35. The first flight tests of the AL-41F1 began Jan. 21, 2010 in Zhukovsky on board a flying laboratory Su-27 (n ° 710). Since early 2000's. motorization PAK FA was to be divided into 2 stages: the first prototypes and production machines should be equipped with the AL-41F1 in while the rest of the series will be equipped with more powerful engines, developing over 16 tons of traction and with less weight and lower cost of operation.

Published in 2006 the tender for this new engine was lifted in May 2007 after receiving responses from Saturn and MMPP Salyut, and still was not renewed. In January 2010, Director of Saturn, Ilya Fedorov, said that the new tender should be opened in the first Kartal this year.

What next? What is the future of the test program T-50? Currently, three fuselage vehicles for flight tests, ready or are in production, as well as three cars fuselage for ground tests. Also, three "flying laboratory" mobilized for the benefit of the program: a new system of flight, as well as individual structural elements are being tested on board a Su-47 Berkut, the AL-41F1 engine installed on the Su-27M n ° 710, while the test SH121 should begin this year on board the Su-30MK2 n ° 503. According to published Sukhoi plans, design tests to continue until 2012, after which the aircraft will be transferred to a military testing center in Aktobe to obtain state certification. After the first flight of Prime Minister Vladimir Putin also said that the first pre-production machine will be at the center of operational training at Lipetsk in 2013, and that the start of mass production expected in 2015 (strange discrepancy with what has been written on the forum, PMSM - ACh).

In 2012 will be held the first conceptual analysis, the results of which will decide the future of the program. One of the key decisions be taken on the motorization of the T-50: the failure of the first tender for the engine PAK FA takes this issue in the research and development at the Russian minders, who apparently have great difficulty in the issue of a significant increase in capacity of existing models. Time to start the production of a completely new engine that meets the desired requirements for PAK FA, is estimated at ten years.

It is also likely that in 2012 the program will begin a new light fighter to replace the MiG-29, which absorbs the new technology brought and tested at the prototype T-50. It is possible that the development of new fighter will be conducted KB RSK MiG, combined with that of "Sukhoi" under the overall leadership of Mikhail Pogosyan, both located at the head of military aircraft of the KLA.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 08:01 
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NRao wrote:
The worst thing seems to be misinformation ................................

Quote:
hehehe
Most notable difference between F-22 and PAK-FA/FGFA is that the later is an all weather day-night capable while the former is not.
The F-22 squad lead has to look at time,week,day/night,rainy/sunny/snowy/........... to give a take off signal :P


..................................................................


NRao, the F-22 is known to have serious maintenance issues. Obviously, that person you quoted is exaggerating, but I'd recommend that you look through two of Bill Sweetman's posts on this subject:

"F-22 Maintenance Problems Surface"
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 7/10/2009
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yaz3le6

And an earlier post of his, "F-22's LO Manhours are HI"
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 3/25/2008
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybr78jx


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 08:09 
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It is meaningless and absurd to compare PAKFA and F-22 when it comes to maintenance for latter is not yet into production , as for man hours required for maintaining stealth AC L&M has been into this business for over two decades and they know their trade the number of man hours need to be viewed keeping in mind the low frontal RCS the Raptor is alleged to have .


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 08:30 
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That bluffers guide seems plausible .. but another closer inlet picture horizontal direct into it would confirm our disbelieves.

nice cut outs btw... and taking to assume that is true, only the rear RCS is not visually stealthy, yet. the skins of the photoshopped pak-fa looks far out!


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 09:05 
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Avarachan wrote:
NRao, the F-22 is known to have serious maintenance issues. Obviously, that person you quoted is exaggerating, but I'd recommend that you look through two of Bill Sweetman's posts on this subject:

"F-22 Maintenance Problems Surface"
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 7/10/2009
http://preview.tinyurl.com/yaz3le6

And an earlier post of his, "F-22's LO Manhours are HI"
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 3/25/2008
http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybr78jx


None of his reports agree with the statement that the F-22 is not an all-weather machine!!!! The F-22 can fly without anyone's permission in any weather. Which negates the assertion made by the poster I was critical about.

Just out of curiosity, how did you conclude that the person I was quoting was exaggerating? On the contrary, that very person seems to have been used as a baseline, without whom Bill Sweetman (or anyone else) could not have made the assertion that the F-22 has high maintenance. : )

I think negi has a point WRT comparisons. But, I guess it is natural to so. ???????????? However, one needs to do some amount of research before posting, even if there are personal biases. (Some time back there was a post about rivets on the F-35. It just gets out of hand. Being critical is one thing, but to make blanket statements which are patently wrong is another.)


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 11:37 
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NRao, can you tell me whom you were quoting (and what page his comment is on)? Let me first read his entire comment in context before I respond. I looked through the last few pages of this thread, but I can't find the comment that you're responding to.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 11:44 
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Looking at the small twin angled all moving vertical stabilizer , it makes me think that at some point in PAK-FA development of some advanced variant , they may just do away with the VS once they have a reliable 3D TVC Engine going.

This will add to its stealth and maneuverability.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 12:10 
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sumshyam wrote:
here is a possible two-seater version of the bird...!

if gurus can enlighten.. does F-22 has a two seater version? I have not found any in the internet.
If there is no two seater F 22 then was is the reason behind it?


thanks


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 12:21 
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F-22B was supposed to be the 2 seater version which got canceled


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 13:48 
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The Russians Are Coming: The T-50's Flight to the Future

Quote:
Introduction

In late January 2010, the PAK FA made its maiden flight, ushering in an end to an era of US dominance of stealth, fifth generation fighter aircraft. Military analysts of every shade and nation spent endless times speculating and awaited the first flight with sleepless nights and over bitter arguments about its final configuration, for the PAK FA was kept so secretive that none other than a very choice few knew what it would look like.

Combat aircraft are the spear tip of any military power, and play a pivotal role in air warfare. And in today's day and age, any nation that has the decisive advantage in the air war, dominates the ground war, and by extension, the political arena. The PAK FA, also known as the T-50 and possibly to be known in its final version as the Su-50, is an aircraft that not only Russia, but the world needed. For the unipolar world that ushered in an American Empire has increasingly become an unfair and unjust world where American arrogance and exploitation is increasingly creating fiction, not only with the Muslim world but with such powers that have had the most to lose and least to gain, such as China, Russia and Brazil.

Even some of the US's allies in Europe, staunch in their support are increasingly feeling like surrogates rather than allies, slaves rather than friends. An example within the military aviation industry is the F-35, a promised cooperative project by the US with its allies, has turned into a chain of dependence, where vital software codes and maintenance legacies will now remain in the purview of the US, with their Allies permanently dependent. It is no wonder that many Western Europeans of various shades have cheered at the PAK FA, even though it is Russian. Freedom perhaps cannot exist in a monopoly.

The PAK FA is an answer to the US F-22, a fifth generation fighter that till now had no equal. A comparative analysis will follow later in this paper, but for now it suffices to say that it contends with the F-22 on stealth, aerodynamic performance and sensor sophistication and capability, as well as in cost, maintenance and practicality.

It must be understood that the T-50 is not merely a combat aircraft, it is an investment in technology and engineering that has implications for Russian industry, and has economic implications for Russia as well as for Su-50 customers who may thus be able to avoid conflict by deterrence. As a superficial example, two squadrons of this aircraft with Iran would dispel all possibilities of an Israeli strike on that nation.

Guesstimates on Performance

There is scant data on the PAK FA, but educated estimates can be made from carefully analyzing pictures and videos. Following are some basic guesstimates on the present prototype aircraft by this author:

Length 19.5m
Height 5m
Wingspan 14m
Empty Weight 18.5t
Wing area: 75 m2

Performance

Much of the performance analysis is unreliable as the actual power-plant is unknown. However, it should be in the range of a max speed of 2.5 Mach, service ceiling of 20,000 m and rate of climb greater than 350 m/second.

Armament

Guns: 1x30mm
Hardpoints: unknown, speculated to be 8 hardpoints.

Radar

The aircraft is known to have five radar modules with known primary radar to be an AESA. Innovative wing leading edge radar of lower frequency (perhaps L band) would be able to locate stealth aircraft like the F-22, a capability that the F-22 does not have.


General Analysis

Basic Aerodynamics

The wings on the PAK FA are large and well-swept, optimized for supersonic flight and for high(er) altitudes. In comparison to the F-22, given even remotely comparable engines, the PAK FA should be able to fly faster, for longer and supercruise more effectively (with lower fuel consumption and greater speed).

The all-wing shape of the PAK FA follows the same principles that was so successful with the Su-27 FLANKER and the MiG-29 FULCRUM and not only provides lift, but also provides ample space (along with the large wings) for massive fuel and/or weapons bays. Reducing drag, increasing range and payload and creating lift and stands in good light compared to the F-22s design.

Air Intakes

CARET inlets of the air intakes are useful for “wave riding”, generating increased lift for the airframe. This allows lower RCS and increased airflow. With the long length of its horizontal wedged edge (of the inlet) additionally helps lift.

Large, moveable Leading Edge Root Extensions (LERX) over the inlets are highly innovative and perhaps plays a role in making the PAK FA super-maneuverable. It is not a flap-like structure but perhaps more like an aileron and behaves in someways perhaps like a canard.

This is an interesting innovation and also provides a solution for the PAK FA in managing air-flow over the wing and onto the slanted stabilizers, solving problems of a twin-tailed delta configuration.

Angled Twin Stabilizers

The twin all-moving stabilizers are innovative in that they can be smaller and have the same effect as a larger conventional stabilizer. Given that the PAK FA also has 3D Thrust Vector Controls (TVC), this makes the PAKFA a fundamentally more stealthy design given that large stabilizers contribute to RCS significantly. Other advantages include reduced weight, stability in hard maneuvering and the ability to go supersonic in a turn.





Large Tires


The large low(er) pressure tires, a bane for space on an airframe implies that the Russians are still staying real, for in any future conflict with a comparable power, airbases could easily be destroyed and operating from semi-prepared strips would provide the Russians (and any other operator) with a key advantage over American designs, whose runways have to be carefully combed for the smallest intrusion.

Technology and Basic Industrial Manufacturing

The PAK FA is built using new methods that the Soviet Union did not have – electro-chemical milling rather than traditional welding methods. While this has been in use since the late 1950s in the West, this method has only now found its way to Russia. This would allow far better finish which has major implications to stealth and minor implications to reducing drag. Along with RAM coatings and the extensive use of composites, this spells a major industrial leap for Russian industry.

Sensor Fusion

Electronics and avionics have traditionally been an area that Russia lagged behind in. However, the PAK FA makes ground here as well. Other than having five radars, informed sources understand that it has a high degree of sensor fusion, combining sensor fusion, Electronic Warfare (EW), data linking and the general Man-Machine Interface (MMI) are said to now be in the league of the US fighters. How far this gets confirmed is yet to be seen but this author believes that given the Russian IT sector's pivotal role globally, this is a leap they have long made and are but only now implementing in their aviation industry.

RCS Reduction

The PAK FA is the first non-American stealth VLO fighter. The F-22's frontal Radar Cross Section (RCS) is compared to a metal marble, the F-35's to a golf ball and it is this author's speculative contention that the PAK FA's could perhaps be compared to a baseball. The Russians are not looking to make the aerodynamic tradeoffs to stealth that the US has made, for a variety of reasons including the effectiveness and costs of such stealth. Given that stealth in the real world would be far less effective than the advertised “metal marble” because the enemy may not always come exactly head on, nor use the radar's that the F-22s were tested with. Nor would any future competent enemy only have one radar on (but rather a plethora of ground and airborne radars at various frequencies). Further, wear and tear in a real world operational scenario are likely to reduce stealth.

The PAK FA thus would save weight and enjoy superior aerodynamics while trading off some stealth. It's S-duct may not fully hide its fan blades from every possible angle but rather perhaps allow a maximum of 5% of it to be exposed from very specific angles. These may still be RAM quoted and netted.

The PAK FA abandons stealth from the rear quarter altogether. Detractors would scoff at such a tradeoff but, considering the aerodynamics and high altitude and high speed effectiveness of PAK FA, the aircraft may not need stealth in the hind quarters, as it could always out run any enemy. Case in point, the F-35 which also remains exposed from the rear quarters would have no such capability. For air combat after a merge however, this would still be an issue for the PAK FA, but RCS reduction then becomes of little relevance, given that IR missiles and IRSTs would then be more effective in any case.

The Russians seem to have carefully watched the US fighter programs, taking the best elements without buying Lockheed Martin propaganda and stealth as the final panacea to fighter combat.

Comparison

The PAK FA compares most favorably to the F-22, surpassing it on a number of parameters while sacrificing certain parameters to the F-22. The relationship is not dissimilar to that between the early FLANKER and the F-15. Primarily, the F-22 is stealthier while the PAK FA is likely to exceed the F-22 in the critical arena of a high-high combat profile. The PAK FA also has a bigger weapons bay and greater fuel capacity. In terms of operational capability and cost, the PAK FA wins hands down to the high cost and complicated maintenance of the F-22, while the PAK FA is said to be an improvement over the maintainability of the Su-27. It could cost a third of an F-22 by its greater simplicity and managed tradeoffs as well as greater production run (being procured by both Russia and India if not any other country).

Until the US produces the next generation of aircraft, this spells the end of their monopoly in 5th generation aircraft and is likely to usher in other players such as China and perhaps give enough hope to Europe to produce its own fighter rather than sink to the humiliation to their sovereignty that the F-35 provides.

The Euro-canards now appear out-dated and out-classed, a situation unlikely to sit well with Western Europe. Given the attitude of the US towards her allies vis-a-vis the F-35, Europe now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. It is the contention of this author that Europe will get together and build a fifth generation fighter, for the spirit of Europe has not been one to see its technological edge corrode or to be demeaned by external powers.

Implications for the Subcontinent

Given that by 2018 the Indian Air Force could be receiving the PAK FA, there are serious implications for India's neighbors, particularly Pakistan. Vis-a-vis India, Bangladesh may as well stop operating an air force, for the gap in capability between the two countries is now too great to bridge.

For Pakistan, this implies that the massive resources and labor that she has spent in closing the gap between her and India will again widen as nothing in the PAF arsenal would compare to the PAK FA. The future of air combat is increasingly moving to high speed high altitude fights, something that the JF-17 design is ill-suited for. The J-10Bs may be of relevance, but would be completely outclassed by the PAK FA. Consider the simple fact that the J-10s powerplant would merely be a fraction of PAK FA's and would have no stealth to speak of in comparison.

The future of the PAF will depend on whether she can again innovate in collaboration with China to build a fifth generation aircraft without breaking the bank. Investments in R&D and a strong commitment from the military and the government would need to start now, if such a project is to succeed. A single engined fifth generation project would also be something that many other smaller powers would be looking for and could be viable in the international arms market. This plane could be built around a WS-15 with a small weapons bay and perhaps built around a high sweep delta. While such a plane may sound impossible now, given that the JF-17 has hardly started production and that China may have little interest in pursuing it for its domestic use, thinking forward could save Pakistan from being threatened again as it was after the Mumbai incident.


Conclusion

Just as the US is being challenged in global economics and is seeing a resistance to its political imperialism and empire building, the world of military aviation also mirrors this challenge in the shape of such aircraft as the French Rafale, the Chinese J-10 and the Indian Su-30MKI. The PAK FA represents the pinnacle of this challenge and puts the ball squarely back to the US court. Can the US now move on to another generation of combat aircraft? With a failing economy, ever decreasing competitiveness, ever increasing dependence on government spending and increasing dependence on indirectly taxing the rest of the world through dollar devaluation, spending billions on a new fighter project may be outside the realms of the US Empire. As such, this may spell the beginning of the end of the US as the center of a uni-polar world. That is exactly what the PAK FA challenges and symbolizes in its capabilities.


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PostPosted: 08 Feb 2010 14:39 
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Quote:
Another rendering from Parlay's Webpage..
Image

Look at the picture ,I would suggest naming it 'Bull' owing to its physical characteristics like the hump like structure.
Not to mention the legacy of tu-4 that surprised west(like pakfa) as being a close copy of their existing aircraft ,and was codenamed 'bull'
Also many aircrafts had been code named on animals , like raptor,bison,strike eagle,bear,foxbat.....


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 02:47 
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The interesting article of Peter Butowsky (in French)


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 03:03 
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Quote:
The fifth generation
Sukhoï made steal an archetype of T-50 on January 29th, incarnation of the ambition of Moscow of s <
plotr butowski (Moscow) with rabbet plane to steuer
Event is historical. It is on January 29th, in Komsomolsk-sur-l' Amour, that the youngest of research departments Sukhoï took his takeoff. The archetype of T-50, developed as part of state program PAK FA (Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Front ovoi Aviatsii, or " future deck of tactical aviation "), left the soil for a trial theft of forty-seven minutes, piloted by Sergueï Bogdan. According to the (laconic) press release published by Sukhoï for opportunity, theft took place " successfully, in complete compliance with fixed objectives ". This first theft was put in benefit to prove " the manoeuvrability of the plane, the good functioning of motors and the primary systems, as well as the retraction and the deployment of the undercarriage ". It is therefore since the plant KnAAPO of Komsomolsk, cradle of Su-27, the Knowing - 30MK, of Su-35 and Superthrow 100 that the youngest made his inauguration theft. The displacement of trial program towards the trial centre in theft of Joukovski, in the suburbs of Moscow, should take place in the course of next months to complete successfully more advanced tries. Combat aircraft of new generation, T-50 represents the ambition of Moscow to acquire an apparatus of comparable air superiority in the American Fr-22A Raptor. In the official literature, Sukhoï represents in the following way the basic characteristics of the future PAK FA: a capacity of attack air-to-air, air-to-surface and air-sea any time long; a "special" manoeuvrability, including at supersonic speed; a weak signature in bands radar, optic and infrared; finally a capacity to use short lanes to take off and land. Physiognomy. What resembles therefore the fifth Russian generation? By comparing it with the Knowing - 27UB who acted as plane of accompaniment during its inauguration theft, it is possible to make a rather definite idea of the dimensions of T-50. The apparatus

seem on the whole more petiî than the Flanker family, showing a wingspan about 14 put a length close to 20 m. The mass in the takeoff of the apparatus without external emports would be near the 21-22 tonnes, a report is increase-weight about 1,4 thanks to two reactors developing 15 tonnes of unit increase. The maximum mass in the takeoff of T-50 can be estimated tonnes at around thirty, with an useful range estimated at 3.000 Ion without provision nor external reservoirs.
Photographs and videos published by the aircraft manufacturer confirm a general appearance revealed in spring on 2007 by a view of artist published of a way

"Special" manoeuvrability
fleeting on the site of the motoriste NPO Saturn. Picture of which it is possible to think that it came from a presentation intended for a deputation of Indian officials. In spite of génêrationnel jump, they acknowledge the "leg" of Sukhoï on T-50: two broadly spaced out reactors, rectangular entries of air, left before the airframe raised the height, imposing "sting" at the back of double drift, bowl optronique, etc. Major difference is blindingly obvious when they examine the device seen from the top or from underside. In accordance with the first estimates, the plane introduces triangular sails in trimmed ends, with an arrow about 53 ° and edges of

The mass in the takeoff of the apparatus without external emports would be near 21-22 '
The maximum mass in takeoff peitt-êire estimated at a tremaine of tonnes, with an uiik range
AIR and COSMOS - K ° 2204 - 5 H-VRIER on 2010


Russian takes its takeoff
endow with an apparatus of comparable air superiority in the Fr-22A Raptor.
escape showing a negative arrow of 10 °. Sails are augmented by important apex the party of which before is mobile and serves of generator of vortex - an innovative resolution sensed exclusively on views of artist broadcast by " Air and Universe "
(cf. A*C n ° on 2200). These replace the ducks of the family Su-30 and take back general form besides. The vertical flighting of the apparatus is as for him composed of two drift of very reduced size tipped up towards the outside in about 25 °, inserted
born, for a report increase-weight d ' 1,4,
3.000 km without ramtaillemRnt nor external reservoirs.
AIH*COSMOS-N°2204-5FÉVRIER2010

Russian takes its takeoff
endow with an apparatus of comparable air superiority in the Fr-22A Raptor.
escape showing a negative arrow of 10 °. Sails are augmented by important apex the party of which before is mobile and serves of generator of vortex - an innovative resolution sensed exclusively on views of artist broadcast by " Air and Universe "
(cf. A*C n ° on 2200). These replace the ducks of the family Su-30 and take back general form besides. The vertical flighting of the apparatus is as for him composed of two drift of very reduced size tipped up towards the outside in about 25 °, inserted
born, for a report increase-weight d ' 1,4,
3.000 km without ramtaillemRnt nor external reservoirs.
AIH*COSMOS-N°2204-5FÉVRIER2010

lement motives and introducing a form similar to that of main sails. All plans are organized, like the Fr-22A, according to the principle of alignment of leading edges and escape, allowing to focalize the return of waves radar incidental in a weak number of directions. Without being taken to extremes, research of furtivité is also translated by the emport of weaponry in hold, veins of entrance of air which they guess in the form of " S " to conceal the daybreaks of compressor on the area before and an airframe before formed by surfaces glide which is not without reminding of that of the Fr 35. Other points will be ameliorated by Sukhoï, as the glass roof, from which the main sum in metal should disappear on versions of production, and application of absorbing materials waves radar. According to Russian television, Sukhoï would have maintained that the identical surface radar duT-50 should be divided by 40 compared with that of Su-30.

Weaponry. The first pictures of 1-50 let foresee two holds with weaponry main arranged in tandem under the in-trados of the airframe and occupying all left empty space on Su-30, of the train before in the blast pipes of reactors. Long about 4,7 m and open sea furthermore d ' 1 m, each of these holds could receive two missiles air-to-air long (type 810) or medium range (K-77M), or another two missiles air-to-surface Kh-38M or antiradar Kh-58UShK. Three years ago (the first pictures date from the summer, 2007), Su-47 Berkut was seen flying with a new hold with weaponry, long of 4,7 m and open sea of 0,9 m - a shape which would have served for testing the hold duT-50. Besides these two holds in tandem, the archetype of T-50 also introduces two rather narrow "bumps" under the emplanture of sails, which could serve for receiving a missile short range (R-73 / K-74) each. Nevertheless, the absence of visible hatch

Six planes for trial program
• T-50-KNS: Kompleksnyi Nsturnyi Stend (cell of full-scale tries), used for adjustment on the soil of the different elements of structure. This apparatus made its first tries of rolling on December 22nd, 2009 in Komsomolsk-sur-rAmour in front of stalls of Indian officials.

• T-50-0: static trial cell. Exit of plant KnAAPO on October 29th, 2009.
• T-50-1: first apparatus intended for tries in theft. First tries of rolling accomplished on January 22nd, 2010 and inauguration theft seven days later, on January 29th, 2010.
• T-50-2: second trial cell in theft. Should join trial program before the end of the year.
• T-50-3: unknown state. Can be used for tries of tiredness.
• T-5O4: first apparatus endowed with its equipment of mission. Will serve for defining the standard of preproduction of T-50. •


http://translation2.paralink.com/


not my fault


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 04:15 
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Anyone notice "India" missing in the "In the name of Allah Grand Strategy" Paki article when the monkey mentions of the powers....Russia, China, Brazil...
AS


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 04:38 
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Quote:
As such, this may spell the beginning of the end of the US as the center of a uni-polar world. That is exactly what the PAK FA challenges and symbolizes in its capabilities.


this one got my goat ... :((


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 06:14 
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Someone missed this?

Quote:
Bangladesh may as well stop operating an air force, for the gap in capability between the two countries is now too great to bridge.


I was expecting Pakis to do that. I guess we need another stealth - the MCA to do that.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 07:13 
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Major Work Ahead On T-50 Stealth Fighter


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 08:03 
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Quote from ^^ link:
Quote:
A two-seat PAK FA, dubbed the T-50UB, will be the basis of an export version for the Indian air force. Hindustan Aeronautics joined the program in 2008, but Sukhoi Director General Mikhail Pogosyan says Indian designers will participate in the later stages of development.


so...what does that mean ...?

Any words of wisdom Gurus?


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 08:13 
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NRao wrote:
Someone missed this?

Quote:
Bangladesh may as well stop operating an air force, for the gap in capability between the two countries is now too great to bridge.


I was expecting Pakis to do that. I guess we need another stealth - the MCA to do that.


This?
Image
Image


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 08:59 
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Yes!

At times I wonder how many pages we will fill when IT comes out.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 10:04 
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^^^ Depends when the GOI sanctions the program and money starts flowing.

I expect it to be around 2012 or later and about 12 years from sanctioned period for IOC.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 10:26 
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sumshyam wrote:
Quote from ^^ link:
Quote:
A two-seat PAK FA, dubbed the T-50UB, will be the basis of an export version for the Indian air force. Hindustan Aeronautics joined the program in 2008, but Sukhoi Director General Mikhail Pogosyan says Indian designers will participate in the later stages of development.


so...what does that mean ...?

Any words of wisdom Gurus?


More like the Su-30 MKI i guess, take the stable proven airframe and add our own stuff. Also india asked for a twin seater PAK-FA


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 12:45 
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Why is the IAF going for the MRCA in any case?

Why not just keep the MKI production going, upgrade to meet any 4-gen threats, and cut over to the FGFA in 2018 or so...then you would have a large number of the still-very-capable MKI spearheaded by a smaller and increasing numbers of FGFA. And the need to manage only two types of fighters. I'm sure you could also have a lot of commonality between the two types - same landing gear, same weapons, maybe even same radars/sensors...

After all, the USAF is planning on keeping the F15 in service till 2025, in spite of having the Raptor.

I don't see how will having more multiplicity of airframe types add to the IAF combat capability. 200 more MKI delivered sooner, will probably be a lot better than 126 brand new aircraft that India has no experience with, to be delivered "sometime" in the future.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 13:30 
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Your question has either been agreed with or countered upteen times on this thread , please go through spme previous pages to get your answer.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 13:35 
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Comrade Che,the Flanker in IAF service is a large two-seat wonder.Expensive both to field and it needs two pilots, a fast disappearing commodity in the IAF! We need numbers,as the famous saying goes,there's "safety in numbers",especially when we have to deal with two implacable foes,Pak and China.Pak is wisely and steadily building up both numbers and quality through extra F-16s and upgrades ,plus large quantities of Chinese fighters which are 3+ of upto 4th-gen western fighters.With Pak going to have a fleet of 500+ fighters not too far into the future,China possessing a few thousand,the IAF will require at least 900-1000 to maintain its edge in the sub-continent.How many of tham can be high cost/acquisition fighters?
However,from the cost-effective point of view,definitely acquiring more Flankers-the number to be worked out,while also obtaining about 200 smaller less expensive though more capable than anything that Pak possesses,is what we should aim for.The highly expensive Eurocanards will become passe wth each day's progress on the PAK-FA.We should examine how much a single-seat AESA MIG-35 /Gripen will cost us when compared with buying a current gen.Flanker,or even an upgraded Flanker with AESA.

For the future it is now clear that there are only two routes open to us,pursuing larger high-tech stealth fighters like the PAK-FA in collaboration with Russia,and developing our own indigenous light fighters like the LCA,where we require western TOT asistance for engines,radar,materials,etc.Here the Gripen could fit the bill along with EJ engines fot he LCA.Acquiring more MIG-35s also to make up numbers upto the desired 900-1000 number,being a later advanced avatar of the MIG-29 would be sensible and v.cost-effective as the IN is also buying the 29K.

We now have to see what will happen to the PAK-FA in its development and plan for introduction of it into the IAF beginning after 2015.Our total needs of numbers + tech advantage upto that time (extra SU-30MKis,a western MMRCA + extra MIG-35s and the LCA) can be met by the assortment of aircraft mentioned depending upon their production capabilities and when a final decision is taken for the contest.If it is taken by the end of this year,then it will give the winner a two-three year manufacturing slot before the PAK-FA and more capable Flankers emerge along wiht the LCA MK-2.If the winner can build more than 30+ aircraft a year,we might see more than the 126 ordered,otherwise the newer more capable PAK-FA will simply dominate the skies metaphorically speaking (with the LCA MK-2 bringing up the "tail") and the need to build/acquire more MMRCAs evaporate.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 15:34 
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some info on PAK-FA ( Russian Video )



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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 18:15 
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Austin wrote:
^^^ Depends when the GOI sanctions the program and money starts flowing.

I expect it to be around 2012 or later and about 12 years from sanctioned period for IOC.


May 2, 2009 :: India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 18:54 
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Is it possible that FGFA = = MCA?

India has possibly only one program for a 5th gen fighter?

OR

FGFA = twin seating PAK FA multirole
MCA = Point defense / air superiority single seating (possibly even single engined)


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 20:03 
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^^
I think that it has been cleared beyond doubt at various occasions that MCA!=FGFA.
The model of MCA presented at Aero India should clear any possibility of that.

And regarding MCA as single engined point defense fighter, AFAIK the goal of MCA was primarily to design a low cost stealth fighter with good ground attack capabilities. This was because rumour had that Russia was basically creating PAK-FA as air superiority a/c.
Though, now that we have seen the a/c, this is obviously not the case. But surely, IAF knew enough about PAK-FA to know its ground attack capabilities. So, this begs the obvious question, why is MCA needed? The only answer I can guess is that even PAK-FA would be too costly for India to operate in large nos. This again I think is unlikely considering that Russia is in worse financial state than us. To create a cost effective fighter would be even a greater priority for them.
So IMHO, it is unlikely that MCA would see the light of day in recent future.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 20:49 
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NRao wrote:
Austin wrote:
^^^ Depends when the GOI sanctions the program and money starts flowing.

I expect it to be around 2012 or later and about 12 years from sanctioned period for IOC.


May 2, 2009 :: India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft


I have seen that before , it all depends when GOI sanctions the projects and funds gets allocated to MCA , I think it will happen after 2012 when Tejas achieves FOC and IAF is happy with the end result.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 20:55 
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is the MCA going to parallel the FGFA - twin engine, strike focus, dual seater but use much more of desi design, kaveri-ej, desi aesa etc as a platform to develop 5th gen fighter skills?


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 21:10 
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On the contrary !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The last I had heard it was renamed the "Next Generation Fighter Aircraft" - the NGFA.

More .............................

Jan 08, 2010 :: India's Medium Combat Aircraft

Quote:
...............................................................


There is a collossal amount of work going on as far as materials is concerned for the MCA/NGFA. ...........................

............................................................


Why so much doubt and negativity?


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 21:37 
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(At the risk of converting this thread into a MCA/NGFA - which I would be delighted to do ............................)

India has been pouring funds into the concept of "MCA/NGFA".

Jan 24, 2010 :: India developing Next Generation Fighter Aircraft

Though not a very well written article, the gist of what is important to the NGFA:

Quote:
IAF seems to be clear that it wants most of the Avionics and Engine for NGFA to be indigenous, Specially the AESA Radar; it seems IAF will not settle for AESA which has been developed by LRDE for Tejas Mk-II, it want to be more sophisticated than the Current AESA technology what LDRE is working on and better Avionics and Self-defence systems for the aircraft which will take lot of time unless similar Pak-Fa Avionics package is chosen.


I do not think the MCA/NGFA is dead by even a long shot.

On the contrary, even the FGFA is not a stopper. Thankfully.

For the PAK-FA has nothing to do with India, in ANY respect. AT best we can expect it to contribute in a great way. BUT bottom line is that it IS a Russian air craft - absolutely nothing to do with India.

The FGFA is at best 75% Russian and some 25% "Indian". For that reason alone it cannot be considered a "victory" by any stretch of the imagination. For the better part it is still a Russian plane.

Does anyone think that with one of largest economies in the world that India will accept too much meddling down the road - say 30-40 years from now? Crap. The Indian politician in 2050, 2060, 2070 will demand things that are devoid of strings from other nations.

The fundamental mentality HAS to change.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 21:39 
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Well we need to see the funds from GOI , IAF and other can make plan but in the end GOI should fund it , once funding starts then ball starts rolling.

But I hope that MCA receives quick funding and proper support from GOI, Cant loose opportunity any more.


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PostPosted: 09 Feb 2010 21:49 
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Instead of the MCA being a feeder for the FGFA it should be the FGFA which is a feeder for the MCA.


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