LCA News and Discussions

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suryag
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Interview with Dr. Kota Harinayarana and Wg Co Rajiv Kothiyal
Some excerpts below from conversation with Dr.Kota
All said and done, Mr Antony has to be given the credit for pushing LCA and Arjun programs. He did it in a very subtle way because there was stiff opposition to both these national projects from within. But, he stood his ground and convinced everyone that we shall overcome all the hurdles. And, we did it. Additional orders for Arjun MBT after it outperformed the Russian T-90. And, now IOC for Tejas. It is because of his extremely pro-active role that we got additional orders of 20 for Tejas. Still, I feel 40 is a too low an order. Today, putting together all projections, roughly we can say around 200 LCAs of different Marks and variants will come out. This included the ones for IAF, Navy and the trainers.
I give a lot of credit to Mr Ratan Tata for the Tejas program. Not many know this story. To me, he was one among the few who saved this national project from closure. In 1990-91, I attended a LCA program review meeting in Delhi. Prior to this meeting, a high-level committee involving MPs had visited the facilities in Bangalore to see what progress we had made. I knew that the agenda of the meeting was to close the program. While some appreciated our work and commitment, they wanted it to be shut. But, Mr Ratan Tata completely backed us
George Fernandez was the Defense Minister then, and he told me the moment, Tejas took-off: “Kota, you might be a happy man now?” I replied: “No Sir. Not yet. I will be happy only when Koti lands.”
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

You've got to have respect for Anantha Krishnan. Unlike most other defence journalists, he really has great passion for the defence industry. He really has been writing great articles on his blog lately.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Dr.Kota's eyes in that pic on tarmak site is so full of enthusiasm and energy. No wonder they named the vehicles after him, I can imagine the energy/enthusiasm he would have infused into the team. Pranaams to them
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Found this on youtube apologise if it was posted earlier
A JEWEL ON INDIA'S CROWN :: 3/5 :: Science & Technology Dimond :: KOTA HARINARAYANA
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Victory has a hundred fathers, while defeat is an orphan.

Now that LCA is flying well many folks will come out claiming paternal links!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by dinesha »

Test pilot recalls Tejas maiden flight
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/126 ... aiden.html
The Wing Command flew the technology demonstrator well, although the telemetry auto tracking system failed a few minutes after take-off and all 16 screens in the monitoring control room started showing erroneous readings.

“I knew she (Tejas) was doing good and we continued...” Kothiyal recalls.
Cut to 2001: Kothiyal had completed the flight briefing, which had begun at 8 am, where he had described the flight profile and put it bluntly to the crew of the two chase aircraft what was expected of them in case of an emergency. He then walked to the runway.

With the take-off scheduled at 10 am, Rajiv was in the aircraft by 9.15 am, mentally going over the flight manoeuvre he had to carry out which he had learnt during the hundreds of hours spent in the Mirage simulator.

The GE F 404 engine powering the little aircraft was started shortly and so were the two Mirage 2000 chase aircraft, but the after-start checks, radio checks with the chase aircraft and the Air Traffic Control (ATC) tower took another 30 minutes.

It was past 9.40 am by then and it was time for a 12-minute automatic built-in test where the flight control computer would run through a pre-programmed sequence of tests. In case of a service aircraft, it would take about a minute.

Finally, the ‘GO’ signal appeared and India’s dream, at the able hands of ‘Kothi’ as he was known to his friends, took off exactly at 10.18 am for the 18-minute flight.
The day I flew it, it was a tough choice especially because it was the first time India was using fly by wire control systems, the first time we used indigenous composites, the first time we flew such a high software-intense aircraft and the first time in a long time we tried making anything like this by ourselves.”
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

I think it would be appropriate if HAL and IAF invite the retired engineers, technicians and pilots also to the IOC ceremony. its been a long journey and without them we would not be here.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by pralay »

lol

all DDM eliminated the fact from their reports that the telemetry link failed because there was some frequency interference from a nearby IT firm, which was sorted out during the subsequent flights.

Now people will feel like our scientists made the pilot few buggy aircraft.

Why Indian media always feels great to pin down desi products with false reasons ? for making a masala story they always try to damage the reputation of desi products.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Exactly, it does more harm than their reporting on which superstars dog ate what at 9PM on last Tuesday.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

My desktop wallpaper for a long time to come.

Image

Cheers....
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Always the devil's advocate...great "indigenous" achievement that it flies,with a foreign engine (underpowered),foreign radar,foreign weaponry as mentioned...nevertheless,the programme as I've always stated has to succeed.The true pinnacle/summit will be when it flies in MK-2 avatar,however with the improved GE engine.AM PR (retd),a key figure in its development has stated in a mag that MK-2 will NOT fly with Kaveri,but the AMCA is earmarked for Kaveri-to have been perfected by then.

The harsh fact also is that the IAF cannot rely upon the LCA at the moment to meet and plug the falling numbers.That will be met with a hopefully affordable MMRCA.The costs of this aircraft per unit should not be more than the superior SU-30MKI,one must wonder whether on the basis of cost alone ,the IAF prepares an evaluation of the best 2 aircraft and hammers out the final cost vs capability equation for a final decision.If the LCA's development can be accelerated,with a concerted focussed effort,we may be able to manufacture them faster,replacing older MIG-21s with LCAs.The fact that the scarce human resources working on the LCA were "split up" for the IJT,affecting the LCA project,indicates a confused mentality within the MOD/DRDO as to establishing its priorities in order.There was also areport that this scarce resource (IJT team), was also given the responsibility of the 5th-gen fighter,makes entire our approach appear lopsided!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

So lets get Mig 35. :P
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

Not sure for the MMRCA deal,there is stiff competition and we are going to get a fab. 5th-gen aircraft with the Indo-Russian bird,but "extras",to boost/replace MIG-29s,why not? As said before many a time,how are we going to reach the 40-50 sqd. strength to deal with Sino-Pak if we do not also buy some from abroad.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by prabhug »

Hey
How about arranging a celebration for LCA in Bangalore ?

Cheers

Prabhu.G
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Rahul M »

it's a little strange that tarmak thinks India has forgotten those two. I don't think any jingo worth his salt can even think of tejas without the names of those two.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

The SQ strength can be reached if the domestic industry concentrates on producing 1 max 2 specific designs and not spread the precious industrial capability on 3 seperate designes. By adding the MMRCA to the mix.

Keep the production limited to MKI and the LCA in different mks and accelerate the order. IF the HAL developes the capability to build 50 Tejas from 2012/13, and keep at it for 10 or so years.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

Rahul, I think the comment should be read not in context of the members (and visitors) at BRF, but the general public. And truth be told, even I was unaware of Dr. Kota contribution.

Never hurts to have some more patriotic chest banging, misted eyes and all. :)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

Guys,

I have a deep sense of ambivilance regarding the future of both the Tejas as well as the MMRCA . The reason for it is the proposed FGFAs due to enter service with the IAF and the PLAAF in the next 10 to 15 years.

I am afrade that we may be looking at the HMS Dreadnaught phenomenon. That every thing that came before the FGFAs will be at such a massive disadvantage that they will not be viable on a battlefield on which they may need to face the opposition FGCA.

That being the case is is it prudent to invest in building a large numbers of expensive aricrafts which may become obsolete with a large part of service life still left ahead of them.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by tsarkar »

Philip - that line of thinking was never right. For example, the war winning P-51D Mustang model that was the only fighter with sufficient range to escort heavy bombers to Europe was powered by a Rolls Royce engine. The angled carrier landing deck and steam catapults were also British inventions, that now feature prominently in US supercarriers projecting power globally.

Its the overall system that is important - the Mustang is important because it was the first transcontinental fighter, fully US from concept to system. Same goes for 100+ aircraft carrying carriers that is fully US from concept to system, even though it uses British inventions.

It doesnt matter where the components come from, as long as the overall system is effective and efficient, and, most importantly, unique to the requirements of the developer and using the system integration know how of the developer. Then the developer can claim ownership of the concept/system.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vina »

The angled carrier landing deck and steam catapults were also British inventions, that now feature prominently in US supercarriers projecting power globally.
Oh, you forgot to add the optical landing system. Fact is, everything that allows jet fighter operations off a carrier (cats, angled flight deck, landing system, the jet engines themselves, steam Turbines) were Brit inventions, though the rate at which they seem to be heading for Turd world economic status, it seems they will have no carrier left!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Singha »

brits also pioneered metal carrier decks - much more resistant to fire than wooden planks on older US carriers!
+radar!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Philip »

We are still searching for the "missing link",what is the IAF's grand design/order of battle 2020+? How many heavy,medium and light manned fighters,plus how many unmanned aircraft as well.Do we also need dedicated long range (stealth) bombers too,to reinforce the strategic triad,especially with respect to China? Thus far what is clear is that the cutting edge will be the FGFA/PAK-FA accompanied by the Flankers in the heavy role.These two aircraft will make up at least 50% of the total force.The rest will be shared between the MMRCA,assorted upgraded aircraft in service like M-2000s,MIG-29s and the max. number of LCAs produced by then.The problem is that the FGFA will only start coming out in large numbers post 2017 and we will still be about 200 aircraft short by then.Even at 20+ aircraft a year from 2012,we will have only 160+ new aircraft (LCA or MMRCA) manufactured.How and where will this shortfall be remedied from? We will still have to acquire more from abroad and this is where a cost-effective solution is neccessary.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by D Roy »

Oh, you forgot to add the optical landing system. Fact is, everything that allows jet fighter operations off a carrier (cats, angled flight deck, landing system, the jet engines themselves, steam Turbines) were Brit inventions, though the rate at which they seem to be heading for Turd world economic status, it seems they will have no carrier left
!

-Off topic-

yes and for all this and more I would recommend all BRF Bhais who haven't watched " Building the Ultimate - Carrier" on Fox history to please do so.

Its a fascinating episode. especially the story of how the optical landing system was conceived and demonstrated.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vishnu.nv »

The IAF requirement is for 42 squadron of Fighter aircrafts. This is a minimum requirement plan we have to defend against the any Chinese aggression and to maintain a air superiority over TSP. Anything apart from Fighters (UCAV,UAV etc) will be addition to the capability of IAF.

But now the IAF area of responsibility has increased also. We need to have a strong presence in south India and A&N islands etc. for all this we need more squadron of fighters. The LCA can be effective in the western sector where all our enemy Installations are at short length there by releasing FFGA/MKI/MRCA for the duties in the Eastern sector and south.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rakall »

Rahul M wrote:it's a little strange that tarmak thinks India has forgotten those two. I don't think any jingo worth his salt can even think of tejas without the names of those two.
IIRC Actually both of them were asked formally to continue with the programme.. have to read AM Rajkumar's book on what was the situation with Wg.Cdr Kothiyal - whether it was his decision or IAF did not allow him to continue..an year later he joined Deccan Airways..

but Kota chose to move to teaching - it was his own decision..

Kota ocassionally delivers lectures on project management based on his experiences managing the complex project.. People still recognise him & identify him as "the father of the LCA".. KH designation is a overtly visible example of that..

I guess there is little ground to say that they have been forgotten.. absolutely anybody who has been following the Tejas for the last 10-15years (or more) surely knows them; and remembers them..
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Arrey yaar aam public forgot about tejas itself, where do you expect them to remember KH or RK. It is only we jingoes who remember them well, we arent jingoes if we forget that. IMO, Kothiyal was moved to Tezpur in 2002 :?: since at that point of time IAF probably thought sparing pilots for the Tejas was a waste of time

From a link in TOI
Wing Commander Rajiv Kothiyal, the test pilot who first flew the prototype of India's fighter jet Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), has quit Indian Air Force, citing personal reasons. Kothiyal, whose promotion as Group Captain was cleared, was serving at IAF base in Tejpur, Assam, when he opted for premature retirement.
``I've served the IAF for 23 years. I quit purely because I wanted to give quality education to my children, which wasn't possible in Tejpur,'' the pilot told The Times of India on Sunday. ``I'll pursue my career as a pilot making Bangalore my base.''
Kothiyal said he has offered his services as a consultant to all flight test related programmes of various aerospace agencies, including the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA). Confirming this, LCA Programme Director M.B. Verma said ADA is considering his request.
A senior defence official said Kothiyal was very much inclined to stay with the LCA project when his deputation with ADA ended in December. ``However, things did not work out with respect to terms and conditions. Since he is back in Bangalore, we shouldn't waste his experience.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by astal »

I guess when Anantha Krishnan Nair (Off Tarmac 007) says Wing Cmdr Rajiv Kothiyal and Kota Harinarayana are forgotten he probably means forgotten by the defense journalist community. For Jingo's at BR and other people who matter :P , their contributions will always be remembered.

Its a question of Tarmac 007's perspective.

Between
Anantha Krishnan, Col. Shukla and Sandeep Uninathan, I see significant improvement in defense reporting. Perhaps for some DDM can be changes to DIM (Desi informed Media).
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by krisna »

^^^^
lot of aam aadmi does not know about fully or nothing at all about LCA Tejas. To my shock some of them( whom I know) remember the bad names given to LCA from the media. they end up with comparison with uncle and other countries which is really a shame. I have forwarded the links to my friends to update them about it.
aam aadmi should know about desi products and the herculean efforts done (by the forgotten heroes) to produce them despite the odds.
desi media should take a huge role as many nowadays read media. honestly it inspires mango SDREs immensely when they know the truth. They swell with pride and joy.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Jagan »

suryag wrote:IMO, Kothiyal was moved to Tezpur in 2002 since at that point of time IAF probably thought sparing pilots for the Tejas was a waste of time
Nope, the IAF thought that Wg Cdr Kothiyal was destined to climb higher up in the IAF and started setting him on the regular career track. Tezpur was a logical progression in his career path. However Wg Cdr Kothiyal at some point decided that the chaos of relocation for his family was not worth it. So in a way it was entirely his decision to leave.


Nice to see that M AK organised the get together betwen KH and RK - great initiative.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by rohitvats »

^^^just to add to above - he was taken off the Tejas programme and given the command of a fighter squadron in Tejpur as that was a pre-requisite for higher promotions.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

Restructuring Aeronautics

By SR Valluri

Issue: Vol 22.3 Jul-Sep 2007 | Date: 24 December, 2010

Mark Antony, the Defence Minister appointed a high level committee to look into the performance of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) laboratories. It was a timely decision. Recently a Parliamentary Committee passed strictures about the utterly unsatisfactory progress in the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) development program being managed by ADA, one of DRDO’s constituent units. It is clear that the development of the LCA leaves much to be desired.

The LCA program was approved by the government in July 1983, (i.e.) almost 25 years ago. It’s envisaged development period before series production was to start, was about 12 years, with the estimated cost of development being about Rs 1250 crores, which factored escalation due to inflation within the country and abroad. The increases due to any delays was estimated to be about Rs 150 crores per year.
Tto obtain any self reliance in aeronautics, we have to integrate the relevant institutions also under one authority, and have it headed by a professionally knowledgeable person.
A delay of a couple of years may not be unusual. But the delay of about 10 years by the time the first prototype flew in 2001, with the reported cost till then amounting to Rs 2750 crores raises serious questions.

As of date, apparently about Rs 5500 crores have been spent, with no assurance that it will be produced in sufficiently large numbers to bring down the depreciation charges per aircraft to reasonable values. The Air Force cannot be expected to buy the LCA if does not satisfy its stipulated Air Staff Requirements. From all indications it is far away from achieving these requirements.

The commercial launching of the Italian satellite by the Space department recently speaks volumes about the intrinsic capability of our aerospace community. It raises the basic question “why did the aircraft industry perform so poorly, in spite of all this intrinsic capability? ” It is worthwhile to briefly look into the matter, if only to make sure that we may not repeat the same mistakes again.

It must be first noted that the development of advanced technology fighter aircraft is an expensive business, and unless they are required in sufficiently large numbers, it would not be economically worthwhile to undertake such a project. The time, costs of development, and the number required by our Air Force, will not permit us to develop the multitude of aircraft required by them. But if we do not have demonstrable capability to develop such aircraft, in time of need, we can be held to ransom.

Tejas Light Combat AircraftIt may be an apocryphal story but it was rumoured that the 1971 war between Pakistan and India was more determined by the US and the Russians than us, as they knew to the last nut and bolt of our spares status. Under the present circumstances they can then hold us to ransom any time they wish, as they did in the past.

HF 24, an aerodynamically clean aircraft, capable of super sonic performance, was designed around an engine yet to be developed. Bristol Siddeley offered the BOR 12, a reheat variant of the Orpheus 703 as a power plant for HF 24 to us, as well as the NATO countries. When the NATO countries rejected the offer, Bristol Siddeley proposed its development at a cost of Rs 5 crores to Krishna Menon then Defence Minister who rejected it. It was a fatal error of judgment- in that HF24 never achieved its design performance. Its development violated a basic principle in aircraft design during those days: Proven engine and a new airframe. Never a new engine and a new airframe.

Efforts subsequently to obtain engines such as the RB 199 to power the HF24 failed, as by then the foreign companies wanted to sell their aircraft to us, and which they continued to do over the years. They are there for their health and not ours. AVM Roychoudhuri as the Director of GTRE took on the responsibility to develop a reheat version of the Orpheus 703, with a 20% increase in thrust to improve the performance of the HF24. While he demonstrated it on the test bed, it did not achieve this performance after installation, due to the bad design of the aft end of the HF 24 fuselage by HAL.
...the design and development of advanced technology aircraft has long gestation periods. If today the Air Force requires such an aircraft designed to meet the anticipated threat scenarios ten years from now, the R&D and academic institutions and the corporate R&D of HAL will necessarily have to anticipate such requirements...
The Air Force was not unhappy with this situation, as they were able to obtain the aircraft required by them by outright purchase from abroad or production under licence. Put plainly they were not confident of HAL’s ability to design and develop advanced technology aircraft required by them. The HAL was not unhappy either as they were having enough business through production under licence. The South Block administrators were not unhappy either, as they did not have to answer any embarrassing questions from the Parliament. The research organisations were busy, such as they were, by taking up R&D conceived by them. The academic institutions were busy publishing papers inspired by articles in foreign journals. We were no where near to the objective of obtaining even a modicum of self reliance.

The fact of the matter is that the design and development of advanced technology aircraft has long gestation periods. If today the Air Force requires such an aircraft designed to meet the anticipated threat scenarios ten years from now, the R&D and academic institutions and the corporate R&D of HAL will necessarily have to anticipate such requirements and develop the technological know – how needed to develop such an aircraft. This means that there has to be a close interaction among the academic and the R&D institutions and the corporate R&D, and a twenty year perspective to achieve such objectives. Such interaction among these various organisations just did not exist in India, although it is a common practice in the US.

In early 1976, P N Haksar, principal secretary to the then prime minister Mrs Gandhi, was visiting Bangalore. Air Marshal Dastur, then chairman of HAL, and this writer brought to his attention the prevailing unsatisfactory situation, and the need to create an agency along the lines of the Space and Atomic Energy Commissions. The result was the constitution of the Aerospace Group to look into the matter, which included us as well. Prof M G K Menon, then Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister was the convener. The committee also included the scientific secretaries to DST and the Department of Space, apart from the secretaries to Defence and Defence Production, and the there service Chiefs Staff.

During the deliberations, it was pointed out that the successes of the Departments of Space and Atomic Energy were primarily due to the fact that the relevant R&D and design and development of the hardware, be it a nuclear power plant, or a space launch vehicle, or a satellite, were vertically integrated under one authority, and headed by a technically knowledgeable person, and not any administrator, and that if we wished to obtain any self reliance in aeronautics, we have to integrate the relevant institutions also under one authority, and have it headed by a professionally knowledgeable person. After prolonged discussions, the Secretaries in Defence Ministry reluctantly agreed that in aeronautics also such integration was needed, but that they did not agree to set any time scale for integration. The proposal was still -born due to the basic objection of the IAS administrators to share power with the scientists, even if they knew nothing about the technical complexities of aeronautics.


Dr Raja Ramanna who succeeded Prof Menon suggested that perhaps the objective of integration could be achieved indirectly at working levels, and suggested that this writer should approach the then Chief of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Latif. I told the Air Chief that the HAL has been already manufacturing MIG 21 aircraft under licence, and that it was highly likely that approval would be given for the manufacture under licence of Jaguar, if not the Mirage, and that the ability of the Air Force to defend our skies would not be compromised, if he were to approve the indigenous development of a fighter aircraft. He fully supported the idea. The aeronautical community owes a debt of gratitude to him for his vision and consent to mount the LCA program.
All the Scientific Advisors are undoubtedly outstanding people in their own fields of professional endeavour, but time and again it was demonstrated that many of the decisions they took, did not contribute any thing to the cause of achieving self reliance in aeronautics
To help achieve coordination among the R&D institutions, Prof Menon around the same time in 1976, broadly delineated responsibilities among the Aeronautical Development Establishment, National Aerospace Laboratories and the Gas Turbine Research Establishment. ADE was asked to undertake R&D relevant to the various aeronautical systems, NAL, the R&D related to the airframe, and GTRE, the engine development.

NAL over the years developed adequate capability to handle composite materials in anticipation of potential future requirements for building airframe structures. It was also clear that the development of any future advanced technology fighter aircraft with high manoeuvrability would require knowledge of the so called, Fly By Wire (FBW) control systems. ADE did not take this assigned responsibility seriously. The matter was also raised at an HAL board meeting because of its importance in the future development of any fighter aircraft. The representative from the South Block shot it down saying that it would be infructuous expenditure if the government did not sanction such a program. The fact of the matter was that the technical people on the board knew that this technology would be essential for any future advanced technology fighter aircraft development, and that its non availability would cause avoidable delays.

HAL, ADE and NAL put up a joint proposal to the government to develop this technology. It was not approved. The result was that when the LCA was approved by the Cabinet in July 1983, we did not have this technology and had to go to the US to obtain it. When India exploded the nuclear bombs in May 1998, Clinton put an embargo, resulting in all a five year delay. Errors in judgment at these levels do not come cheap. As a matter fact, after the embargo was imposed ADE, NAL and HAL jointly developed this technology, something that was proposed at the HAL board meeting earlier and rejected ! Put plainly, a professionally ignorant person’s objection cost the nation about a five year delay and Rs 750 crores. Such mistakes are unforgiving.

Also read: ULFA's niche war

GTRE efforts to develop the gas turbine engine GTX 35, did not get the kind of support it needed. This could have helped much in understanding the technical complexities in gas turbine development. Engine design is even more complicated than airframe design. As mentioned to me by a Pratt and Whitney engineer, the engine designers are a mafia and they depend on an enormous amount of test data they generate to develop advanced technology gas turbines. This was not appreciated by the administrators in the South Block, and they denied the necessary support to GTRE to develop a suitable engine in time. In fact I had to tell the Defence Minister in 1985, that at least for the first thirty to forty LCA’s, we have to import engines, and that GTRE may well require consultants from abroad to successfully design an engine, suitable for the LCA.
If there are any lessons to be learned from the past history, we need to again bear in mind the successful functioning of the Space and Atomic Energy Commissions which demonstrated our capability to develop technologically sophisticated hardware. There is intrinsic capability in aeronautics also.
All the Scientific Advisors are undoubtedly outstanding people in their own fields of professional endeavour, but time and again it was demonstrated that many of the decisions they took, did not contribute any thing to the cause of achieving self reliance in aeronautics and in fact some of their decisions had disastrous consequences. The less said about the administrators in the South Block in this context, the better it is. Put plainly these gentlemen were out of their depth in such matters. A classic example was the decision taken by one of the scientific advisors on spurious considerations, to ease out Raj Mahindra, who had years of hands on experience in the design of aircraft in UK and here, and was then working in ADA on the LCA program, as its chief architect. Much of the conceptual design of the LCA was done by him.

Typically, after getting an engineering degree, a good designer needs years and years of hands on experience, before he can take independent responsibility to design any advanced technology aircraft. Mahindra had it, and demonstrate this capability. Such people are hard to come by. Easing out Mahindra, the architect of the LCA conceptual design, and without any trained understudies, was another disastrous mistake committed by the South Block. Furthermore, when ADA was conceived, it was expected to be a funding, managing and monitoring organization, with the primary responsibility for its development resting with HAL, and the various R&D institutions functioning in a supporting mode under the auspices of ADA. Instead, the then Scientific Advisor assigned the primary responsibility for the LCA development to ADA, and in essence set it up as a competitor to HAL. It was again an unfortunate decision resulting in avoidable delay.

If there are any lessons to be learned from the past history, we need to again bear in mind the successful functioning of the Space and Atomic Energy Commissions which demonstrated our capability to develop technologically sophisticated hardware. There is intrinsic capability in aeronautics also. If the government wishes to obtain any self reliance in aeronautics, it is essential to integrate under one authority, the Aeronautics Commission, all the relevant R&D and the manufacturing organisations and have it headed by a technically competent person who is also the secretary to the government to the depart of Aeronautics, in the Ministry of Defence.

The Commission shall have under its authority, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), charged with the responsibility for research, design and development of aircraft, to plan and achieve long term objectives, and the Aircraft Production Agency (APA) charged with the responsibility for the manufacture of aircraft. It is essential that ADA be headed by a Director General who is a professionally competent person, and familiar with the various aspects of research, development and design of advance technology aircraft. This shall be headed by a serving air marshal as its Director General. Without such an integration, there is no hope what so ever of achieving even a measure of self reliance in aeronautics, a crucial sector for our defence preparedness in the foreseeable future if it were to be intent of the government.
Kanson
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

Of course Dr. Kota Harinarayana is the official father of LCA.

But those old timers and those who watch the programme with keen interest will tell that true and original father of LCA was Raj Mahindra. Don't know how many of the younger generation knows him.

The Other Side Of The Coin
Mr Pushpinder Singh sent an old article ” THE LOST DECADE”, of the 1970s, which appeared in the Nov – Dec 1990 issue of Vayu. The author, Mr Raj Mahindra, was former MD (Design and Development) at HAL. The article, written to mark the 50th year of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, basically reviews the plans and projects that were considered and undertaken by HAL during the “lost decade and to speculate on what might have been had the powers-that-were persisted with the several opportunities that came up.”

We all hold opinions on HAL and its achievements, that is why this particular account, from within the establishment is of interest. One may agree or disagree with the contents, but there is no denying the fact that it makes for very interesting reading.

Without reproducing it in its entirety, I have paraphrased parts of it while resorting to direct quotes, wherever it was deemed appropriate. All italics and highlighting are mine.

The article begins with briefly recalling ASRs formulated at Air HQs in the 1970s, which discussed the gradual replacements for the MiG 21FL, Su-7, Hunter, HF 24, Canberra, the Vampire trainer and the aging transport fleet. These in turn were to be replaced by a single supersonic tactical airstrike aircraft (TASA), supersonic deep penetration aircraft, the AJT and versatile STOL transport aircraft respectively.

“In Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Indian Air Force, indeed the nation had an enormous reservoir of opportunity to meet the IAF’s requirements for most, if not all, its needs of the forthcoming generation from the mid-70s till the end of the century.” Till the 60s, HAL’s list of achievements boasted the HT-2, Pushpak, Krishak and Basant. The Kurt Tank led team also had the inducted into service HF 24 under its belt by the mid 60s. The search for a compatible engine, for the Marut, to match its superb design capabilities and which came to nought, was attributed to be “more due to lack of sustained Government/industry effort than technological reasons.” Once the Marut was consigned to history , the design and development team of the HAL were virtually jobless till the LCA project was launched in 1986. “Meanwhile, a great deal of experience, talent and time had been irretrievably lost.”

Aircraft design and development, according to the author, briefly comprises three distinct streams – where prototypes are built but not followed by series production, where prototype development is followed by production and operational deployment and thirdly where design studies, building of mock ups etc takes place without further follow up activity. “unfortunately, the last category was the fate of most of the efforts of HAL’s design teams in the lost decade of the seventies, a fact barely known to most and the real story, to just a few.”

During the period of the mid sixties an Advanced Projects Group, headed by the author, was assigned the task of focussing on and overseeing feasibility studies for likely military and civil aircraft.

This group initially conceived of the Ground Attack Fighter I (GAF I) powered by an M45 engine which was itself being developed as a joint venture between Bristol Siddeley and SNECMA and would have a radius of action of about 150 miles.

There was also a study made for a STOL transport cum freighter, as a civil airliner with a 100 seat capacity and also as a replacement for the Packet, Dakota and Caribou. The configuration was for using four Rolls Royce turbofan engines and another configuration powered by four turboprop engines.

“The design configuration was not only contemporary but had advanced features which were later seen to have been adopted by advanced aerospace companies in the West. Unfortunately, development work on this project was abandoned in favour of combat aircraft which had all the priorities. However, as later events unfolded, the tremendous efforts ………….did not succeed in persuading the Defence Ministry to launch full fledged design and development of even the combat aircraft …..”

In 1967, the Group took up studies for an interceptor – ground attack aircraft. The multi role F 4 Phantom was the role model of this study. The GAF II, as it was referred to, was put through wind tunnel tests and the “configuration presented a very good basis on which to launch a prototype development effort. It was, however, clear that a far more elaborate infrastructure would be required for HAL to develop and build a new generation fighter.”

In the event, an attempt was undertaken to fall back on the trusted Marut and a parallel design using the forward fuselage of the HF – 24 with some modification to its canopy contour was offered to the IAF. The aircraft would have a radius of action of 300 nm, maximum ordinance for a ground attack role with contemporary avionics. The study completed in 1970 envisaged induction into service by 1976. This did not apparently find favour and Air HQ issued a firm requirement for an Advanced Strike Aircraft (ASA). “The final configuration of the Advanced Strike Aircraft as proposed by HAL, met most of the essential requirements of the Indian Air Force. While evaluation continued for some time, approval for prototype development simply did not materialise.”

In 1973 there was an offer from Germany to jointly develop the HF 24 into the Hindustan Supersonic Strike Aircraft labelled the HSS 73 later to be known as the HF-73. This would retain the original mainframe, with radical changes to the fuselage, air intakes and the centre wing section. The cockpit was to be modified for better visibility, fuel capacity increased, and with a completely new avionics suite and powered by the Rolls Royce RB 199-34R engine would have a radius of action double that of the HF 24. “Eventually, this project had to be abandoned because, as some said, of non clearance of the RB 199 by the UK and Germany, the two partner governments involved in the engine development for the Tornado MRCA programme. Thus all efforts in developing an Indian combat aircraft had come to naught.”

Subsequently HAL took on a feasibility study for a small multi role passenger aircraft, the HAC 33. “A wind tunnel model was built but not tested as development funds, were once again, not approved.”

In the mid-70s, the IAF showed interest in development of an air superiority fighter. In 1974 HAL undertook designing and studying a configuration for the Air Superiority Fighter (ASF). The ASF 300 was considered with either an Indian GTX or a SNECMA engine. The configuration proposed by HAL, “even though it did not meet the ASR, could have provided a reasonable solution…..”

“At this stage the HAL design team, resilient as ever, projected a low cost HF-24-M53…….when compared with the ASF 300, was 2 tons lighter, and was comparable to the Jaguar for bomb carriage capability as well as penetration distance……….The combat capability offered through this configuration and the delivery schedules were not acceptable to the IAF, and therefore the work was discontinued.”

“How much disappointment does a man (or design team) need?”

There was yet another attempt made to redesign the dear old Marut and a detailed feasibility study was conducted for the next version, the HF 25. At an estimated cost of Rs 64 Crore at 1979 price levels, the HF 25 prototype was scheduled to be available in three years and induction into service was proposed seven years later, that is by 1986. “In spite of the low development cost of the project and low unit cost of the HF 25, the IAF showed preference for the Soviet MiG 23/27. The project was therefore discontinued.”

In 1980-82 design feasibility studies were undertaken for an Advanced Jet Trainer. The programme was disbanded as all available funds were diverted towards the Advanced Light Helicopter and the Light Combat Aircraft.

“It was not until 1986, thus, that the Ministry of Defence with its constituent departments encompassing the conceiver (Defence Research and Development Organisation) producer (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) and operator (Indian Air Force) got its act together to clear the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project which has since been underway under the aegis of the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) which manages, funds and monitors the programme from its headquarters in Bangalore.”
Some comments:
Dara says:
May 9, 2010 at 5:28 pm

I am sure there are many here who were closely associated with HAL during the period referred to in this article. They can perhaps throw more light on why almost every project or study, that was undertaken, never saw the light of day.

One point is striking. The article would have been more balanced if the author had dwelt in detail on the reasons why none of the projects was found acceptable. For example if we knew why the IAF or MoD turned down a proposal instead of just mentioning that a certain project was rejected, it would perhaps make his case stronger that HAL was more sinned against.

I also wonder what the author would have to say to-day, if he were to write about the LCA Project, which is now 24 years down the road from then.
Reply

*
Sudhir Batra says:
July 10, 2010 at 1:19 pm

Every time there was proposal, the ASR rejected these. The main reason was Mig Lobby in Air Staff that was so keen on Russian Aircraft to be inducted. I was in AFRO when induction of Mig Bis was being undertaken. I had attended few meetings in connection with induction plan of Technical Airmen. The Air Staff was so keen to have only Mig21 (Type 77) technicians. We at AFRO had problems finding the right people since some had not extended their term and some were in training establishment as instrutor. QRs given for Aircrew too had only Mig pilots. They would not even have a Sukhoi pilot for initial induction.
ramana
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Kanson I recall reading newpaper reports in college* about the HF-73 and its eminent design start and then it died away.

I wonder if anyone has the conceptual sketches of those planes. The weakness seems to be the jet engine technology. External powers could always deny them as needed. In that regard the LCA too faced the same problem after 1998 tests. And still the Kaveri is yet to emerge. So engine design and mfg has been a major gap for India.

V.S. Arunachalam was the one who neogtiated the GE 404 engine with Frank Carlucci, after Mrs G's Cancun meeting with Reagan.

* I used to have newspaper clippings of the editorial pages of Ind Exp (Maharaj K Chopra) and Hindu for many years.

IN US I started a file with articles by Hormuz Mama and others on the LCA in late 80s from Interavia. Lost them in a house move!
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:
I wonder if anyone has the conceptual sketches of those planes. The weakness seems to be the jet engine technology. External powers could always deny them as needed. In that regard the LCA too faced the same problem after 1998 tests. And still the Kaveri is yet to emerge. So engine design and mfg has been a major gap for India.
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ramana
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ramana »

Wow Thanks. Can we have them on the IAF page, Jagan?
Pratyush
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Pratyush »

Shiv,

This is what I mean when I say that thinking of the lost decade brings tears to my eyes. Even one of these designes had been approved by the AS. The story would have been different for the LCA. It may have entered service by 1995 or latest by 2000, instead of reaching IOC by 2010.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by SaiK »

I am still surprised at the decision of going for GE414 against EF200++ engine and that technology offer and package could clearly stay away from big power dependency. As many articles suggests about independence from USA and USSR as the prime, that goes against the decision with GE., however technology and business aside, talking politics alone. There was also a follow up article that EF just lost out by the way they submitted their quote. That is not fair politics at all, but may be fair business tactics considering our political/strategic goal.

Kaveri needs more indigenous inputs, and like how scientists congregate for ISRO, and setup committee for analyzing failures, the same must be done for K. K with Snecma is still a no no considering a strategy of the core precision technology independence. There are reasons to put forward on table that it ain't an easy technology to master. Yes, but still the strategy is not in its place considering independence from ransom France.

I doubt we lack combustion science/ engineering or brains w.r.t turbines, but lack of focus.
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by suryag »

Indian Navy Pushes For More Technological Self-Reliance
The Indian armed forces rarely come out so strongly in support of DRDO, which often suffers delays and cost overruns. For example, the naval prototype (NP-1) of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is expected to have its first flight by March, although Indian Defense Minister A.K. Antony had said it would fly before the end of 2010.

“It is late by 3-4 months and that can’t be called a huge delay,” says Dr. Prahlada, DRDO’s chief controller. “We are ensuring that everything is in place and don’t want to hurry through. We will have the first flight of NP-1 in March.”
NRao
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by NRao »

Restructuring Aeronautics

By SR Valluri

Issue: Vol 22.3 Jul-Sep 2007 | Date: 24 December, 2010
Thanks K.

However, you got to read his book for nice fireworks.

(Don't look for it. Private circulation only and only 2 on BRiet book shelves.)
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Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Dileep »

Mark Antony, the Defence Minister
WTF?
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