Historical Battles in Ancient & Medieval Bharat

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Jan 2011 10:13

Airavat wrote:In studying or reading military history, one must cover the entire campaign leading up to the battle. And the campaign was lost one month earlier. In a bloody skirmish on December 7th, the right hand man of the Bhau, Balwant Rao, was killed by the Ruhelas. On December 17th a Maratha force sent into Awadh as a diversionary tactic was surprised and defeated by a detachment of Abdali troopers. The commander, Govind Pant Bundele, was beheaded and his head was sent to Bhau by Abdali as proof of the failure of the latter's plans.

After that the Marathas at Panipat were trapped for weeks, with no hope of a relieving force or a diversion. They ran out of supplies and offered to surrender, making the Nawab of Awadh a mediator. When that offer was turned down by the Mullahs in the Abdali camp, the Marathas in desperation sacked the town of Panipat on January 6th, but got nothing from the small and already battered town. Finally on January 13th the Bhau gave in to the clamour of his soldiers and decided to fight a do or die battle the next day.

What was the route used by Holkar to escape? Why could not have the whole Maratha army escaped similarly?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 16 Jan 2011 11:01

Malhar Holkar was posted on The Right Wing

All through the 5 hours of fighting there was little or no activity on the Maratha right wing. Perhaps they had been ordered to stay on the defensive and escort the non-combatants to safety if things didn't go well. Or some believe that there was no officer experienced enough to to lead the separate contingents in a coordinated attack.

Strangely enough the Abdali units facing them also remained standing still through most of the battle. Only when the Maratha centre was finally surrounded, Najib Khan advanced with his Ruhelas (15,000 men) who launched 2000 rockets on the enemy (Sindhia contingent) and opened fire with their flintlocks. On his left the Abdali cavalry (5000 men) also moved forward.

At this Malhar Holkar turned away with his unit (3000 men) and was joined in flight by the bulk of Jankoji Sindhia's 7000 men. Jankoji was left with a few of his men and these were pushed towards the centre to share the fate of the Bhau's men.

By 3:30 pm the battle was over.

As per Jadunath Sarkar there was always a friendly understanding between the Holkar family and Najib Khan Ruhela, which lasted even after Panipat. Atri alluded to this in his post.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Jan 2011 11:10

Airavat wrote:Malhar Holkar was posted on The Right Wing

All through the 5 hours of fighting there was little or no activity on the Maratha right wing. Perhaps they had been ordered to stay on the defensive and escort the non-combatants to safety if things didn't go well. Or some believe that there was no officer experienced enough to to lead the separate contingents in a coordinated attack.

Strangely enough the Abdali units facing them also remained standing still through most of the battle. Only when the Maratha centre was finally surrounded, Najib Khan advanced with his Ruhelas (15,000 men) who launched 2000 rockets on the enemy (Sindhia contingent) and opened fire with their flintlocks. On his left the Abdali cavalry (5000 men) also moved forward.

At this Malhar Holkar turned away with his unit (3000 men) and was joined in flight by the bulk of Jankoji Sindhia's 7000 men. Jankoji was left with a few of his men and these were pushed towards the centre to share the fate of the Bhau's men.

By 3:30 pm the battle was over.

As per Jadunath Sarkar there was always a friendly understanding between the Holkar family and Najib Khan Ruhela, which lasted even after Panipat. Atri alluded to this in his post.

I think Atri mentioned that the Sikhs and Jats were not providing aid ... but still, the Marathas were not surrounded before the battle ... could they not have moved northwest into Punjab or Southwest into Rajasthan, and then moved southwards?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 16 Jan 2011 11:48

After the two armies had entrenched on November 1, 1760, it became impossible for either to contemplate any retreat. Because any army on the move, with artillery, infantry, baggage, and non-combatants to slow it down, would have been bombarded by the enemy artillery and mauled by the enemy cavalry detachments.

Their own artillery would be unable to respond, as it would be limbered, and the movements of their own cavalry would be impossible in that crowded mass.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Jan 2011 12:18

Airavat wrote:After the two armies had entrenched on November 1, 1760, it became impossible for either to contemplate any retreat. Because any army on the move, with artillery, infantry, baggage, and non-combatants to slow it down, would have been bombarded by the enemy artillery and mauled by the enemy cavalry detachments.

Their own artillery would be unable to respond, as it would be limbered, and the movements of their own cavalry would be impossible in that crowded mass.

They should have sabotaged and then abandoned all the heavy stuff, and left on horseback, under the cover of darkness. By daybreak they could have been a good 20 or 30 km away ... Then they could have broken up into small contingents and made their way back separately to places in core Maratha territory such as Gwalior or Baroda ...

IMHO, that's what Shivaji would have done.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 16 Jan 2011 13:51

They didn't have enough horses for the entire army, particularly the artillery men, the infantry, and the non-combatants. Among the last were the wives and children of the Maratha sardars. A retreat could not be organized without ghastly slaughter and rapine.

Yes, Shivaji would not have allowed himself to be caught in that situation, but he lived in different times and carried out swift raids mostly in hilly terrain with numerous forts close by for refuge, and stocked with supplies. The main conflict in those days was between the Deccan Sultanates and the Mughal empire, of which Shivaji took maximum advantage.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 16 Jan 2011 14:55

Pranav wrote: They should have sabotaged and then abandoned all the heavy stuff, and left on horseback, under the cover of darkness. By daybreak they could have been a good 20 or 30 km away ... Then they could have broken up into small contingents and made their way back separately to places in core Maratha territory such as Gwalior or Baroda ...

IMHO, that's what Shivaji would have done.

Shivaji wouldn't have allowed this war to become a pilgrimage for marathas .
He would have wrecked the whole afghani and supporting najib armies with guerilla attacks before they were weakened enough to either run away or face total annihilation . War , would have been a total destruction for afghanis fighting in a foriegn land and also to their local support chain .
For marathas it was more like an expedition and pilgrimage both .It was their first and probably last expedition on such a scale. Practically they were on an invasion march upto delhi . Having little or no experience of foreign invasion always proved negative for Indian armies .

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Jan 2011 14:47

The following post is OT for “Battles” but relevant for “Historical & Medieval India”, hence posting here.

I was in the Middle East this week, and incase anyone wants to know the historical perception that Turkish people have of Arabs, then refer to the following item published in the Hurriyet Daily News City Brief Section on Friday 14th January. The Hurriyet Daily News is one of Turkey’s leading newspapers. I have the hard copy, but here is a link to the original article –

http://travelmind-idilka.blogspot.com/2 ... -into.html

…the Turkish saying “may I turn into an Arab”, meaning if what I am saying is incorrect, may God punish me by turning me into black (like an Arab).

As you can guess, becoming black is something undesirable for a Turk. Of course, Turks are not known for their political correctness and as unbelievable as it may sound to your multicultural sensibilities, black street cats and dogs are still called “Arab” in Turkey and no one seems to think of it as something weird.

Indeed, before writing this, I got curious about what semantics had in store for me. So I looked up in the Turkish Dictionary and found ten or so sayings about Arabs, almost all of them derogatory.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Jan 2011 22:34

From a group of historical accounts on Facebook---

There are several really lovely accounts of life in Mahratta camps by British officials.

Here's one

" Fond of a wandering life, the Mahrattas seem most at home in the camp ; the bazaars being supplied with necessaries for the soldiers, and such luxuries as those in a higher station require, they know no wants, and are subject to few restraints ; surrounded by their wives and children, they enjoy the pleasures of domestic life; and many of the principal officers keep cheetas, greyhounds, and hawks, trained to hunting, for their amusement on a march, or when encamped in a sporting country.

" Not only the officers and soldiers, but in general the followers of the camp, have their wives and families with them during the march. The women frequently ride astride with one or two children on a bullock, an ass, or a little tattoo horse, while the men walk by the side. On reaching the encampment, the fatigued husband lies down on his mat, and the wife commences tier duties. She first shampoos her husband, and fans him to repose; she then shampoos the horse, rubs him down, and gives him provender; takes some care of the ox which has carried her stores, and drives off the poor ass to provide for himself. She next lights a fire, dresses rice and curry, or kneads dough for cakes, which are prepared and baked in a simple manner. When the husband awakes, his repast is ready ; and having also provided a meal for herself and children, the careful matron occupies the mat, and sleeps till day-break, when all are in motion, and ready for another march.

" Of the Mahratta cavalry, those soldiers who have neither female companions nor servants to attend them, on finishing the march immediately shampoo their own horses, by rubbing the limbs, and bending the joints; which not only refreshes the animals, but enables them to bear fatigue with a smaller quantity of food than would be otherwise necessary.

" Besides the married women, a number of dancing girls and tolerated courtezans attend the camp. Some of the former officiate as choristers in the sacred tents dedicated to the Hindoo gods ; many belong to the officers, and others form a common cyprian corps. Children of both sexes accompany the army in the severest marches; they know no home but the camp.

" The number and variety of cattle necessarily attendant on an Asiatic army is astonishing. There were at least two hundred thousand in the Mahratta camp of every description. The expense of feeding these animals, as also the difficulty of procuring provender, is very great, and their distress for water, in a parched country and a sultry climate,

Nick
often fatal."

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 19 Jan 2011 23:58

Sanku,

That sounds more like a Pindari camp than a real Maratha camp, but that is understandable as Marathas had started using Pindaris so extensively that it was probably indistinguishable from British eyes. IIRC Phillip Mason observes that Old School Maratha commanders had tried to discourage such practices, but they were quickly sidelined by younger commanders for petty personal financial and political motives (pindaris are cheaper and loyal to the paymaster, with no political standing of their own).

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 20 Jan 2011 02:14

Some mistakes of Marathas from Wikipedia.

a) Peshwas decision of appointing Sadashivrao Bhau as the Supreme Commander instead of appointing Malharrao Holkar or Raghunathrao proved to be an unfortunate choice as Sadashivrao was totally ignorant of the Political and Military situation of North India.

b) If Holkar had remained in the battlefield, the Maratha defeat would have been delayed but not averted. Ahmad Shah’s superiority in pitched battle could have been negated if the Marathas had conducted their traditional ganimi kava, or guerrilla warfare,as advised by Malharrao Holkar, in Punjab and in north India. Abdali was in no position to maintain his field army in India indefinitely. [17] Marathas had used guerrilla warfare in North India. The Turki horses could not have handled the plundering and cutting of supply lines by the Marathas.

c) Moreover, the senior Maratha chiefs constantly bickered with one another. Each one of them had ambitions of carving out their independent states and had no interest in fighting against a common enemy.[19] Some of them didn't support the idea of a round battle and wanted to battle using Guerilla tactics charging the enemy head-on

d) The Maratha Army was also burdened with 150,000 pilgrims who wished to worship at Hindu places of worship like Mathura, Prayag, Kashi, etc. The pilgrims wanted to go with the army as they would be secure with them.

e) Before the battle, the Marathas along with all the horses, elephants and cattles were forced to fast for many days and thus fought the battle of Panipat on an empty stomach. Moreover, it took many more days for the Marathas to reach the North due to the constant halting of pilgrims at the places of worship. If not for these pilgrims, the Marathas would have reached the North in the scheduled number of days and would have been in a better position to face Abdali.

f) Najib, Shuja and the Rohillas knew North India very well and most of North India had allied with Abdali, thus, it can be said that there wasn't any hostility against Abdali. However, the Afghans too started the battle with some disadvantages, facing a well trained, western equipped Army, that was undefeated and led by a single leader. Ahmad Shah Abdali compensated for this by his use of shaturnals, camels with mobile artillery pieces at his disposal. He was also diplomatic striking up agreements with Hindu leaders, especially the Jats and Rajputs, and former rivals like the Nawab of Awadh appealing to him in the name of religion.[8] He also had better intelligence on the movements of his enemy, which played a crucial role in his encirclement of the enemy army. Abdali had also kept a fresh force in reserve, which he used when his existing force was being slaughtered

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 20 Jan 2011 02:36

About seven lakh descendants of panipat warriors in haryana --

PANIPAT: There is quite a bit of Maharashtra in Jatland, which went down memory lane on Friday — remembering the third battle of Panipat fought between Marathas and Afghans. Descendants of these Maratha warriors, now numbering seven lakh, are living all over Haryana, but it is the historic Bhadar village, dominated by Maratha Rod population, which is in the focus on the 250th anniversary of the third battle of Panipat.

And within this village, it is the old Shiva temple, which stands testimony to the bravery of the Marathas.

Sarpanch Kaptan Singh Rod told The Times of India that the temple existed even before 1761, but was in a dilapidated condition. Sadashivrao Bhau, a Maratha warrior, who led the forces in the fight against Afghan invader Ahmed Shah Abdali, renovated the temple during their two-month stay in the village.

The sarpanch stated, "The Maratha soldiers stayed in this village before the battle and the villagers supplied them with essential commodities. Later, after the defeat, many soldiers returned to this village and their numbers increased gradually.

Now, around 50% of the total population of 5,000 is of Maratha Rods." Virender Maratha, convener of Marath Jagriti Manch and resident of Karnal, confirmed that there are around seven lakh Maratha Rod population in Haryana, descendants of the warriors who hid in the state after the defeat of the Maratha army at the hands of Afghans.

Pandurang Balkawad, a Marathi historian and descendant of the warrior, said the place is like a pilgrimage for Marathis as apart from old Shiva temple in Bhadar, there is Devi temple and war museum in Panipat, and Kala Amb — the battle venue.

The locals stated that around 80% of visitors to these places are Marathis

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Jan 2011 03:36

In my tours I did go to Panipat to pay my respects. All jingoes should go there and swear "Never Again!"

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Jan 2011 03:39

Kurukshetar is also nearby !!

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 20 Jan 2011 09:03

Ahmad Shah’s superiority in pitched battle could have been negated if the Marathas had conducted their traditional ganimi kava, or guerrilla warfare,as advised by Malharrao Holkar, in Punjab and in north India

How feasible is guerrilla warfare in the plains and flatlands of Haryana/Punjab? I can understand guerrilla warfare in the hills, ravines and jungles of the Deccan, but how does one carry out guerrilla warfare on the plains, especially with 2,00,000 troops and a huge artillery park?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 20 Jan 2011 12:07

The proper term should be "predatory warfare", which is called ghanimi qawait or kazzaki in Persian. In it, units of light cavalry fan out into enemy territory, trample the crops, and attack isolated outposts and poorly defended camps of the enemy. If the enemy forces come in sight, then the light cavalry units flee and don't fight a pitched battle.

In the Panipat campaign where was the enemy territory? Not Delhi/Haryana but Awadh and Ruhelkhand, and the Marathas could not reach these places as long as the rivers were flooded. After the monsoon months ended, a force under Govind Pant Bundele crossed into Awadh and for a time carried out predatory warfare. But this lone unit had little chance of escaping the enemy cavalry and was destroyed on 17 December 1760.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 20 Jan 2011 12:54

Would have posted this earlier, but now I see others have already made similar points. One of the interesting ideas propounded by a friend of mine a while back (and I've never had the heart to repeat his thoughts to a Marathi guy face to face before, because I figured it might raise jingoistic feelings) is that the Marathas really weren't very good when it came to set-piece battles where the enemy had time to prepare artillery. As per him, even Shivaji got his butt handed to him when he faced enemy that was fully prepared and on the offensive (e.g. Panhala and against Raja Jai Singh). What the Marathas were really good at was guerilla warfare and lightning attacks with their cavalry. As long as they stuck to the methods of fighting that they were comfortable with, they were unbeatable. Shivaji realized their strengths and weaknesses pretty early in his career and after the treaty of Purandar, he never allowed himself to get into a situation where the enemy had time to get set up.

However, when the other side had time to prepare and had a good plan, the Marathas were often (but not always) beaten even when they had heavily superior numbers: e.g. Assaye, Koregaon, Tatya Tope at Jhansi etc. are good examples of this. Marathas often didn't have answer to artillery and small arms in open spaces.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Jan 2011 14:04

i found another very old british assessment of maratha forces a while back, it stressed their good abilities in mobile skirmishing fighting, but did not rate them highly in more conventional set piece war fare methods

perhaps the key factor here might be command structure and allegiances to lords and overlords.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 20 Jan 2011 14:31

The Maratha defeat at Panipat can be primarily attributed to their failure to harmonise the cavalry mode of warfare with the drilled infantry and artillery based set piece battles. This problem was to plague the Marathas for long time to come. If this were managed, the allies part would not have been mattered, in that time frame. The interlinking of various troop types is what modern warfare is all about. There have to be clear-cut set of orders which is understood by every soldier and everyone in the hierarchy.. Loss of Balwant Rao is exactly sensed here, as Airavatji pointed out.. The integration of artillery and cavalry mode of fighting.. This was first time when a Hindu power was trying to carry out an integrated campaign (with heavy artillery).. Shivaji never had to fight such an enemy on such a terrain..

Comparing Shivaji with later marathas is fallacy.. Shivaji's army never carried women. Anyone found possessing a mistress OR wife while on campaign was beheaded.. Shivaji removed the system of Jaagir and started the system of salary. Each soldier received salary from government.. He did not have to loot unnecessarily to earn his livelihood.. All the sardars too received salary and no one possessed any Jaagir (fiefdom).. Marathas had to abolish this reform because when Aurangzeb descended on Deccan after death of Shivaji, he started luring Maratha generals and soldiers by offering them Jaagirs. Hence to control that attrition, Maratha kings (Sambhaji and Rajaram) started this system again.. Shivaji would never have allowed Bhonsala, Gaekwad, Peshwa, Shinde, Holkar, Pawar and others become so powerful in first place.. he would not have allowed a "federal" structure of the Hindavi swaraj to evolve.. all these problems are problems of evolving federal structure. This evolution got truncated with loss of Madhavrao-1 in 1772.. Hence maratha empire remained a quasi-federal form of government.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Jan 2011 16:16

Armen and Atri - The same could be said about Charles Martel, he avoided battles he knew he would lose, hence his record of only one loss. Even Chengiz Khan would have retreated from a set piece battle where the odds would have been stacked against him.

I would recommend reading about Baji Rao 1 strategies at the Battle of Palkhed in 1728. A good description is in Gen Montgomery (of WW2 fame) book - A Concise History of Warfare. These strategies could have been used with better effect at Panipat, had a leader of the caliber of Baji Rao or Shivaji been there.

Incidentally this is exactly what the Sikhs did in 1762 and later Abdali invasions under Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, although they did suffer one major loss.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 21 Jan 2011 00:16

Airavat,

What and when (did it happen) the much talked about massacre of the Bhils by the Marathas?

Mods, you may move this to the apt thread if it is not relevant here. Thanks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jan 2011 00:19

^^^ Is that a battle? If not, does it belong here? I suggest you move it yourself? Admins are not clean up crew.

jambudvipa · Post by **jambudvipa** » 21 Jan 2011 03:57

I came across these while cleaning up my drive.were taken a while back.resolution is ok as were taken with mobile.Most of the pics i post will be kind of guessing games for those intrested, as by the time I got to this gallery my legs were shot and had lost the patience to take a pic of the description in many cases.
ill keep uploading the ones which have an acceptable resolution.

This one shows a mughal horse archer in front,side and back views.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jan 2011 13:50

exhibitions - the shakaTa configuration of the army, as mentioned in mahAbhArata war as well

closeup of the the garuDa (eagle) configuration of the army, as mentioned in mahAbhArata war as well

closeup of the the chakra-vyUha (the most deadly) configuration of the army, as mentioned in mahAbhArata war as well. this is the configuration that teenager abhimanyu broke through and was finally killed by 6 general of the opposing side

http://practicalsanskrit.blogspot.com/2 ... alore.html

jambudvipa · Post by **jambudvipa** » 24 Jan 2011 15:11

Acharyaji,excellent photos.is there any book which give detailed information on the various vyuhas shown in the photos? I was especially impressed with the Garuda vyuha.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Jan 2011 19:36

various purva's in Mahabhratha has good amount of details about the same. In fact there are two formations made at the same time on one day when Arjuna killed Saindhava which are both Padma with vyala formation the second one is being to hide the forces and their location. I think we are making a mistake if we think that their are just like the animals and birds they named after. They are only names of the formations. Details discription of how formations are made and who is posted at which postion are all written there.

One more series of wars mentioned in Bhagavatham is the wars between Magada Empire and Madhura Kingdom. It is said some 18 times Magada attacked Madhura only to be defeatged every time by Sri Krishna. No details of formations were given. But organising an attack by Kalayavana from the west resulted in shifting of capital from Madhura to Dwaraka.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jan 2011 22:12

You mean Mathura and not Madhura. The wars are Jarasandha of Magadha vs Yadavas of Mathura. The last one when Jarashandha attacks in conjunction with Kaalayavana, Krishna decides to evacuate to Dwaraka.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 26 Jan 2011 11:29

Acharya wrote:

closeup of the the garuDa (eagle) configuration of the army, as mentioned in mahAbhArata war as well

First thing that came to mind when I saw this picture was, "that sure does look like the profile of an F-22 Raptor."

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 26 Jan 2011 12:12

Ramanaji, We telugu people write it as Madhura which Hindi people may write as Mathura.

These wars took place some 17 times and all the time Sri Krishna could defeat Magadha Empire. The main reason for these wars is killing of Kamsa by Sri Krishna. Kamsa married both the girls of Jarasandha. So He wanted to take revange for killing of his son in law. Each of these wars are said to be as bloody as Kurukshetra war with many kings like Dhrupada etc fighting for Magadha. So under Krishna Yadavas were quite invincible.

With the performing of Rajasuya, Yudhishtira of Puru has become Emporer of Bharat. They have already killed Jarasandha before that and being son of a Yadava mother Kunthi he also has support of Yadavas.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2011 23:40

Acharya wrote:

closeup of the the garuDa (eagle) configuration of the army, as mentioned in mahAbhArata war as well
http://practicalsanskrit.blogspot.com/2 ... alore.html

very interesting but not quite accurate.
we need to understand that the names of the battle arrays are indicative and not descriptive. the garuda formation as described in numerous texts has only vague resemblance to a bird.

a battle array according to ancient India's military science consisted of 5 parts (a centre, 2 wings and 2 flanks) plus a reserve behind the main formation. the reserve was not considered while defining an array since it was expected to have same position in all types of arrays.
ALL the various battle formations described in our epics and texts can be described in terms of this basic building block, the alphabet of ancient India's military language so to speak.

Code: Select all

A general battle formation 
 _____                 _____ 
|WING|               |WING|  
          _______
         |CENTRE|
    ______       ______                       
   |FLANK|      |FLANK|

       ________
       |RESERVE|

Code: Select all

Garuda battle formation 

           _______
   _____   |CENTRE|    _____ 
  |WING|              |WING|     
     ______       ______                       
     |FLANK|     |FLANK|

          ________
         |RESERVE|

of course, in the chakra vyuh the units shall be facing outward (and not along the outline of the circle). it is a strong defensive formation at the expense of mobility and therefore very vulnerable to arrow fire as well.

edit : jambudvipa ji, try Military history of ancient India by Maj Gen Gurcharn Singh
and Arthashastra translated by LN Rangarajan.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 27 Jan 2011 00:04

jambudvipa wrote:Acharyaji,excellent photos.is there any book which give detailed information on the various vyuhas shown in the photos? I was especially impressed with the Garuda vyuha.

I dont have any ref yet. If I find one will do

jambudvipa · Post by **jambudvipa** » 27 Jan 2011 02:44

Rahul saab,Acharyaji and Narayana garu..thanks for your replies.

RM thanks for the tip about Maj Gen Sandhus book,i am going to buy both his ancient and mediveal one.shows as out of stock on Flipkart but on Vision books website shows as in stock.

i have got one ebook which you guys might be intrested in. i downloaded it from the Delhi university DSPACE site called "War in Ancient India".Ive stiched the various parts into one book and posted it on http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/2011/01 ... ent-india/

I have started reading this book right now in conjucntion with the Shamashastry translation of Arthashastra which is freely avaialibe online.

RM is there a difference between Shamashastrys translation and LN Rangarajan one?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2011 03:29

Yes. L Rangarajan's (IFS) is in modern English and is from a diplomat's point of view. BTW even US authors are into translating the book.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Jan 2011 03:44

In the formations you have mentioned there is also a front or head of formation positon mentioned in Mahabharatha.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2011 04:32

Jambudvipa, Thanks for the download. The chapter on Diplomacy and War is a short summary of Arthashastra and compares it with earlier texts. For those who can't read the whole book this is a good substitute. In fact the game theory of political conflict is an application of the first two means: sama and bheda!

just read the 40 pages of the book to get the essence.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Jan 2011 08:11

jambudvipa wrote:RM thanks for the tip about Maj Gen Sandhus book,i am going to buy both his ancient and mediveal one.shows as out of stock on Flipkart but on Vision books website shows as in stock.

hurry ! the one on ancient India is out of print. I was very lucky that jain book store managed to locate a copy and send it to me by post.

i have got one ebook which you guys might be intrested in. i downloaded it from the Delhi university DSPACE site called "War in Ancient India".Ive stiched the various parts into one book and posted it on http://jambudveep.wordpress.com/2011/01 ... ent-india/

excellent ! I was looking for this book for sometime.
thank you !

I have started reading this book right now in conjucntion with the Shamashastry translation of Arthashastra which is freely avaialibe online.

RM is there a difference between Shamashastrys translation and LN Rangarajan one?

Shamashastry's edition is a literal translation while LNR's version is more of an interpretation along with elaboration of various points. he has also done some rearrangement (for example Chanakya treats different aspects of war in 4-5 separate chapters, LNR puts them into one chapter) making for easier reading. usually I read both LNR and Shamashastry's translation to get an idea of the topic.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Jan 2011 06:22

Atriji and Jambudwipa, Can you both work with Parag Tope and show how 1761 Panipat led to 1857 and how it led to 1947 i.e. two centuries of continuous struggle to build anew nation state on the Indian Sub-continent? And what were the ideals that led to this new nation state and how there has been accommodation for modernity.

Ideally Shivaji's reaction to Mughal rule is what led to this new nation-state eventually formed four centuries after his struggle.

An example is the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia that finally led to the creation of European Union in 1990s. A similar continental effort.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Jan 2011 12:07

I have written a blog article on similar topic.. Parag tope ji, can you please drop an email on atri(dot)brf at gmail (dot) com? ppt would be easier to disseminate..

jambudvipa · Post by **jambudvipa** » 30 Jan 2011 15:12

Ramana garu would be glad to help in this endeavour.

Atriji & Parag Tope ji let me know in what way I can be of assistance.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 30 Jan 2011 16:51

are bas kya, jambudwipa mahodaya

your help is most welcome.. we can discuss it over email, what say?