Bharat Rakshak

DDM.


This is the correct order:

• 20+20 (including 8 trainer versions) LCA Mk.1 w/ GE F-404 IN20 (2 squadrons between 2011 - 2015 @ 8 per year production rate)
• 80 to 100 LCA Mk.2 w/ GE F-414 (5 squadrons post 2015)

It is not? I thought the engine deal went with GE last year in October. Also remember, the above is a direct quote from PS, not DDM spin/edit. The man is being quoted - verbatim.


Refer above.


As of now the second 20 order has not materialized/inked. They have been talking about a 20 + 20 for ages, and for sure the first 20 was ordered waay back (2005?). The second 20 though is nowhere to be seen. As it currently stands, HAL has orders for only 28 LCA. Or did I miss something? When did the IAF sign for the second Tejas MK1 (GE IN20) order?

CM

If that's the case, then there will be 5 years of idle production time between LCA Mk.1 and Mk.2 version. Mk.2 version is going to make its maiden flight in 2014 with IOC happening around 2017. As we have seen with IAF and HAL practice, they don't start manufacture of the type until IOC is achieved (because prototype configurations change a lot). This means @ 8 aircraft per year current capacity, HAL will have delivered the 20 LCA Mk.1 version by early 2013. So between 2013 to 2017, HAL LCA facilities will lie idle (with only a handful of Mk.2 prototypes being built during that span).

Light Fighter, Heavy Burden

Some more tripe. Article starts off with the LCA, goes on to cost comparison of Embraer commercial jet and LCA, proceeds to Nobel peace prizes and finally crashes to a halt by mouthing the same inanities about Indian poverty etc. I wish Yahoo.in had a comment feature on this article.

The order has not been placed. Last October when the 414s were chosen over the EJ2000s, they still had about 6 months of work left before the final order would be placed.

But I am a little worried about the verbatim part too. I must say that it doesn't make sense to me. How will be start serial producing MkIIs in 2.5-3 years from now? If we can't the assembly line for the LCA is going to lie idle.

Or maybe work on Mk II has proceeded way beyond what I had estimated. Guys at AI, please ask when we could expect the first prototype to fly. If a majority of the study has been done, then we can build a prototype in a year. But I had read somewhere that the 414s will only arrive on or after 2012.

So I don't quite understand where things are heading.

CM, perhaps the MRCA decision is veering more than a bit towards the Gripen. IAF may already be thinking about 126 + options. I still think the IAF can accommodate both the LCA and Gripen in large numbers considering the number of aircraft lining up for retirement.

That would be sad if Gripen is chosen. We have now two countries controlling us, rather one - no-rse and un-kill.

it doesn't matter what they do with mk-2 but as of now main thing is they are giving IAF to fly blind aircraft which has no radar,what the thrust of engine will do when its got no radar.
at least lca on IOC must have been bvr capable but they tested it for dropping dumb bombs accurately.

its just like delivering a car without headlights and seats.

X - posting...



GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program




F404-GE-IN20 Engines Ordered for India Light Combat Aircraft

http://www.geae.com/aboutgeae/presscent ... 0717b.html



Total expectation is 17 + 20 + 20 = 57. Of these we exercised 17+24 = 41.

LCA was the requirement of the hour when IAF was cash strapped. Now the funds available to it are much more and I think they dont "care" (relatively) that they have to manage 250-300 heavy ones. Now that they have the funds they seem to want only the Benzs and not the Marutis..

That is so wrong. Firstly LCA has a radar (LSP 4 flew with it). What ADA will do in the next year or so is to make software integrations for radar tracking, targeting and guidance. Before IOC ADA has already demonstrated that hardware wise everything works (missiles were fired and bombs and stores released). LCA MMR is capable of both AA and AG missions. So, all that needs to be done is to work on the software part (most of which already would have been done) and to demonstrate guided weapons release.

If the LCA was BVR capable, we probably would have witnessed FOC in January.

Plus, long before Mk2 appears (and the above mentioned higher thrust engines are used) Mk1 will have all the "headlights and seats" (as you wanted to call it) and then some more..

You are misunderstanding. There is no Naval Mk1. All the order for Naval variants will be on the standards of LCA Mk2.

It can be understood as, Kaveri will power trainer. AirForce and Naval variants get its Kaveri share after a decade later during upgrade.

^^^ Similar to the stuff that Neelam Matthews reported in the AW

why not get yourself a little more aware of facts before going on about the Tejas Mk2..the Tejas Mk1 ALREADY has a radar.

Often i hear this GE F414-INS6 ordered for LCA Mk2 is same as GE F414-EPE.

Considering the development of GE F404-IN20 as the highest thrust model for LCA Mk1 , it can expected that thrust of GE F414-INS6 could be either equal or higher than GE F414-EPE engine.

F414-EDE is 15% increase in thrust from G414-400 and F414-EPE has 20% increase.

Thrust of GE F404 variants in pounds

F404-1N20 > 19,000 (LCA MK1)
F404-F2J3 = 18,300 (LCA-TD)
F404/RM12 = 18,100 (Gripen)
F404-402 = 17,700
F404-400 = 16,000

why not give up 5% thrust but use the EDE advantages of lower opex to get more tejas.

Ah! Rhetorical arguments with twisted words! My favorite!

What will Tejas do with an engine if it has no radar?
What will Tejas do with radar if it can't drop bombs?

I am reminded of a limerick by my guru which presents rhetorical questions such as these


Sorry to go OT.

^

BVR missile can't be fired without radar but bombs can be dropped without radar.

which one.and if it does then why BVR missile is not there and if this is questionable then how long it takes to have bvr missile integration and if this too takes long then 2032 and derby integration didn't take this long on harrier as its taking on lca.

This is not about you - but a general comment aimed at a whole lot of people on aviation fora. Everyone is hooked on "dogfighting" or "BVR shootdowns. There is a thrill about the one on one knight ishtyle fighting. Mud moving is dull, unglamorous - so everyone is clamoring for "maneuverability", "BVR", "extra AAMs". Except when mud moving is made glamorous by a combo of Gatling and A-10 - even if the effect of such a combo is less than that of a single 250 kg bum. It's all about romance.

But mud moving is just as important part of air warfare as air combat. But you would never figure that out by reading the JSQ (Jingo Staff Requirements) of Internet fora. Tejas has been integrated with Litening and can drop bombs and that will work fine, radar or no radar.

and even without litening dumb bombs can be dropped.at least lca be able to do bvr capability equal to that of blk52 by now.

I can safely assume that you've not been following the Tejas for a LONG time to not know which radar it has.

Anyway, its the Elta 2032/LRDE MMR hybrid, mechanically scanned array.

BVR missiles are yet to be integrated to the aircraft and the radar and are meant to be ready by the time it reaches FOC, in 2012.

On the Sea Harrier, the entire program from first integration of the Elta 2032 to test firing was not a short period either.

Please do some research before coming to conclusions.

LCA has a MMR radar (which takes some components from Elta 2032). IIRC this radar was extensively tested on the ground as well as on the Hack. It flew with the LSP-4 and then with LSP-5.

You mention Derby as if it has been decided to field the Derby on LCA. IIRC there are only a bunch of rumors and no concrete info on which BVR missile will be used on LCA.

2032 is Isreali radar and so is derby so obviously isreali's would have done extensive testing even before the upgrade path was offered to IN. You failed to take into account that testing time and now you crib about the time it takes for the same on LCA.

Again LCA has achieved IOC (Initial Operational Clearance), which means that the plane is certified to be safe for flying and all the critical systems offer a certain performance and reliability. This obviously is much more important than BVR. After IOC, the LCA now will undergo Wake tests, some lighting tests and all the weapon integration (AA WVR and BVR as well as AG).

LCA should have the electronics capability similar to that of blk52 when it achieves FOC (which is around an year and a half away).

Guys wasnt the LSP-3 the first aircraft to sport the radar ?

^^^^ You are correct.....My Bad

LSP 3 Flight
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/04/tejas-lsp-3-makes-successful-first.html

LSP 4 Flight

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/06/tejas-lsp-4-tests-skies-boosts-test.html

Can it mean:-

Present Kaveri for LCA Trainer=AJT ?

Kaveri JV for upgrade of IAF & IN aircrafts?

F404IN20 for first 20 SP LCA Mark-1?

F414-INS6 for Second 20 SP LCA mark-1 or it will be F404IN20 only?

F414-INS6 for LCA Mark-2?

Kaveri JV for AMCA?

Now the issue is how powerful is F414-INS6? Swedish 414s are around 95kn, so it has to be around 100kn but is it EPE or EDE equivalent to 114kn? LCA programme director said that they needed a 10% more powerful engine, would not 114kn be too much? Does LCA require something around 95kn only? If 114kn engine is being used then would Kaveri jv with 95kn engine be underpowered?

Too many questions! Guys get some answers at the Aero Show!

and .

Excellent work Kansonji, that clarifies things considerably. AWST is correct, and so is my estimate - at this point confimed orders seem to be 20 LCA mk1/GE IN20 (2005) + 8 LSP (GE IN20) + Naval prototypes + ?Trainers = 40. IOWs, the total number of MK1 a/c = 20 onlee.

The 99 GE 414 engines will bring up the second order of 20 PLUS another 80 odd Mk2. All in all one can expect 120 odd Tejas. This confirms the AWST analysis, pg. 46-47.
http://gb.zinio.com/reader.jsp?o=int&pu ... =274582255

It also matches with PS's own words, and the fact that additional 20 have still not been ordered even 5 years after the first batch!

As far as the idle line goes, I think we may have to recalculate:

8 LSPs + 4 series prod to be delivered by early (march?) 2012
4 series prodn a/c by 2013
8 #s by 2014
PLus LCA Naval/Trainer protos by 2015-16.

How is the line idle? By then the mk2 should be available for 99 numbers.

That is it - 120 birds and the run is over. This sidelining of the Tejas is probly because of 2 reasons (speculation alert!):

1) Hopeful scenario: The IAF does not fully trust US components and does not want to base a large number of fighters on GE engines. The LCA team otoh, has always seemed to be in favor of US components despite repeated snubs, and this probly causes a rift, and the Tejas remains an experiment with limited success in that it to a large extent fulfills the techie goal of creating an aerospace industry but falls short of providing a usable fighter. The IAF as end user can now perhaps trust in the AMCA project a bit more willingly (unlike LCA)

2) Sorry scenario: The IAF trusts the US but has simply no faith in Tejas and technocrat ability. As a result it skippers the Tejas and focuses on MRCA instead. This should be borne out by either the Gripen or Shornet making landfall gains.

Anyways, in either case the Tejas gets token order (123).

CM.

^^^^ the dreaded 123 number the last i saw this number was for another order for a product at 124

120 is still a huge number. in the 80s people used to take 40 M2k or 40 F-solah as a powerful fleet of hunting hounds.

I also fail to see why the Mk1(FOC) and Mk2 will not provide a useable fighter ? the IAF currently has 120 Bisons and around 70 Mig21FL, and probably around 75 non-upg Mig27 that will be retired this decade. the Tejas can fulfill all these roles with better range/payload/sensors/weapons...thats around 275-300 "low end" airframes that are set to be scrapped. [iirc only around 40 Mig27 were upgraded] . the oldest Jags obtained in mid 1980s are now 25 yrs old and getting a little long in the tooth too.

I would say point 2.

No doubt it is a large number. But a far cry from a MiG-21/27 replacement, which is what was hoped. At least 200-400 LCA should've been inducted to balance out a force that is projected to have 600 heavy 30 ton fighters! Hell, if the MRCA goes with a twin engined bird, and along with an AMCA of 125+ nos, we are looking at more than 75% of a fleet with twin engined monsters That is a LOT of moolah in terms of maintenance, operating costs.


Usable? yes, most definitely. But dependable? With US engines? Perhaps the IAF does not think so. Or mayhaps the IAF is simply not impressed with the Tejas, wot? The ACM did call it a 3rd Gen MiG-21++ afterall.


All true, but the above reason negate such events imho. I may be wrong (and I hope I am) but ever since the IOC only negative news re. this bird has made airwaves - not just DDM tripe, but even in terms of modest orders being spoken out in the public by involved parties. Does not inspire confidence.

CM

Will all the 99 Engines will be used on Airframes ?
Wont the 99 engines include some Spare Engines ?

I have seen at least one report of an initial order of 99 engines plus an option for a 100 more! I cannot find it at the moment.
The 99 and the existing calculations for the Mk1 and prototypes seem to tally as CM has shown above.

The option for 100 more - you don't normally pull that number out of thin air and bandy it about. It looks like a plan and sounds like a very sensible approach. Hanging a carrot to GE and an option to see how the Kaveri pans out maybe?
As more pilots use the Tejas, any feedback is bound to reach high levels at IAF. This might lead to more.

hopefully a ex-Tejas pilot will become COAS

A Vic post right above:



Seems IAF cannot think of a number below 200!!!

200+ of FGFA, 200+ of AMCA, 200+ of MKI. Left out till now is a piddly 126 for MMRCA. Bet they will bounce that number too. And perhaps split the deal????

Has the IAF thought of alternative fuels by any chance?