Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 24 Feb 2011 09:33

So what's the status of Astra, will it be ready to be operationised by 2011 end or 2012? Need to speed up Astra project.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 24 Feb 2011 14:41

Brahmos: Blocks to protect Indian mountains

The Indian army is now expected to place orders for a shipment of the Block III supersonic missiles, which are capable of striking targets in mountainous terrain with a high level of accuracy, according to BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sivathanu Pillai. The new missile combines the best features of the first two blocks. Dr. Pillai said the two technologies were used to create a product with the configuration of an anti-ship missile that can also strike targets on land.

One of the main features of the new missile is its ability to scale mountainous terrains, find the target and strike. There are no other supersonic cruise missiles with such features in the world. The Russian and Indian scientists managed to accomplish an extremely complicated task.

"It was almost impossible to do: to ensure manoeuvring and the nosedive when the missile is travelling at supersonic speed. Nobody has ever made anything of this kind. Nobody has even tried to do it. We managed to do it, and quite successfully at that", Dr. Pillai said proudly.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2011 16:57

Cybaru wrote:These models may not be accurate sizes.

Cybaruji they are the real sizes - not scale models. Same pic from me at the same stall with human for comparison

I have a much older pic of me with Barak

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2011 18:25

holy cow I never realized amraam is just a huge missile. no wonder it has a massive range.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 24 Feb 2011 18:57

Yeah it happens when I first saw the Air Launched Brahmos i couldn't believe it how big it was.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 25 Feb 2011 10:23

shiv wrote:
Cybaru wrote:These models may not be accurate sizes.
Cybaruji they are the real sizes - not scale models. Same pic from me at the same stall with human for comparison

I have a much older pic of me with Barak

Thank you shivji for sharing that.. The human model helps understanding scale of things...

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 25 Feb 2011 12:53

i went to visit the naval recon base in whidbey island long time ago pre 9/11 and some of the pods were just massive. good 8-10 ft in length and 3-4 ft in diameter

Apparao · Post by **Apparao** » 26 Feb 2011 01:07

Gagan wrote:
karan_mc wrote:K-15 test rescheduled to Jan 31
Did they test it?

Dont know how credible this new site is but here...

http://www.naxatranews.com/index.php?pa ... s&key=2395

Balasore: Another crucial missile test, AAD interceptor, was postponed following a reported 'malfunction' in the missile sub system, days after a scheduled trial of submarine launched ballistic missile (SLBM) K-15 was put off over the same reason.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 26 Feb 2011 04:41

The source of the above report is Hemant Kumar Rout....

Wonder what the cause of these repeated component malfunctions is: lack of quality control/sabotage ?

Luckily it was detected in time before it could cause a failure. Both in K-15 and AAD.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Feb 2011 15:21

Guys,

Has their been any news WRT, the repeat order for the NAG beyond the approx 440 missiles originally ordered.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 01 Mar 2011 08:13

Dr. Gollakota, Project Director of the Astra programme speaks about Missile Technologies, especially those relevant to Indian Missiles - spends a fair amount of time speaking about Astra - poor audio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgMY2Wt6VaI

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Mar 2011 12:52

X-posting from Book review dhaaga, because it might be relevant

Acquired a new kindle and to test it out, purchased "Lightning Bolts" by William Yengst about Maneuvering re-entry vehicles. It has a section on India's capabilities as well. I will do this review in 3 parts (the last part also containing my impressions about reading books on the Kindle). This is a book review cum summary.

This book is written by an engineer. Someone who was intimately involved with the development of Maneuvering re-entry vehicles in the US. The tone of the book is that of an engineer who warmly recollects his days spent with other engineers. He goes into great (but accessible) detail about Missile warheads and the difficulty they faced in designing Maneuvering re-entry vehicles. What a revelation! The engineering complexity of Maneuvering re-entry vehicles is enormous! India should truly be proud of having mastered this technology.

The story starts with the Germans, who decided that they needed a missile which could reach the USA. Two competing designs were proposed (A-10 and A-9). A missile with larger motors and a missile which would boost a glide vehicle which would then achieve range through gliding. The author says:

German artillery scientists had observed early in the war that mountain-top launches of high-fineness (long and slender) projectiles traveled much faster and further than would be predicted by classical ballistic theory. This led to tests of hypersonic lift and drag of the projectiles, because of their troublesome tendency to fly, which created a major problem in predicting
artillery impact accuracy. Consequently, the Alpha Draco concept of a high lift-to-drag, spinning projectile was identified as a candidate for the A-9 reentry vehicle.

As fate would have it. Germany lost the war and its scientists were captured. Russians got the A-10 scientists (and went on to build larger and larger rocket motors) whereas US caught the A-9 scientists and went the boost-glide way. Initial "dumb" RV design by the US had large errors. This was because of trajectory errors due to: diurnal (day-to-night) variation that an RV experiences as it passes from the dark-to-light side of the earth, winds at extreme altitudes and small discrepancies in ablative shields causing imbalances in the RV, variation in the gravity field of the earth. So much so that every Minuteman Silo was surveyed carefully to estabilish their precise location and their gravity fields so that the Gyros could be set properly.

To correct for all these, 2 programs were initiated MBRV (Maneuvering Ballistic re-entry vehicle) and BGRV (Boost-glide RV). In author's own words:

MBRV was intended to be an evasion vehicle that during reentry could `out duel' enemy interceptor missiles by performing "jinking maneuvers" (i.e., abrupt turns or changes in direction within the atmosphere) to "fake" interceptors out of position and thereby, prevent engagement. Abrupt turns could require MBRV to experience very high accelerations [e.g., l00 times the pull of gravity (g)] {It is to be noted that the kinetic energy of a re-entering vehicle is far in excess of any ABM that can be fired at it, so it can make higher G turns to out-duel interceptors.}....By contrast, BGRV was intended to be an efficient glide vehicle to fly long ranges (i.e., avoiding enemy defenses by flying around, past, or under their coverage) and requiring relatively low accelerations (e.g., 10-20 g) but resulting in large radius turns.

Going into how BGRV would work {Anyone recall how Shaurya "Spins to evenly distribute temperature" ?}

After being boosted onto its glide trajectory at an altitude of 120,000 feet and speed in excess of Mach 18, four small and base-mounted gas jets would spin the vehicle and establish its initial few-degree angle of attack to offset gravity. BGRV would roll continuously (few revolutions per minute) to maintain even heating of the nose and airframe throughout its 45 minute flight. Vehicle control was accomplished with io interleaved and hinged flare panels (each panel about 6.25 inches wide at the hinge, 2.25 inches wide spacer, and 18 inches long). I recall the hydraulic actuators powered the panels like segments of an umbrella. As the vehicle rolled, the flare undulated in and out to maintain its angle of attack or change attitude when a programmed trajectory turn was required.

Then the author goes into the design of RVs. RVs can either be blunt (Low Ballistic coefficient) whereby they will get considerably slowed down at the upper atmosphere and travel at subsonic speeds in the lower atmosphere. So passive heat sinks are enough to keep them cool. On the other hand "sharp" nosed high Ballistic coefficient vehicles travel at hypersonic speeds at the lower atmosphere and require complex cooling/shielding. MBRV necessarily had to have high kinetic energy to achieve maneuvering and to defeat ABMs. However, the greatest challenge faced by his team was vibration:

One RV had radio-transmitted the signal from an acoustic sensor during reentry and when played, it sounded like a freight train ...Vibration was to become our greatest single engineering challenge during the program...The computer Random Access Memory (RAM) and integrated circuits, supplied to Univac by Westinghouse (Pittsburgh), broke into particles under the intense random noise pounding it had to endure for a half minute.

Coming back to MBRV, to test it out {Anyone recall APJ saying Prithvi warhead could follow 6 different trajectories which could be controlled by software}

Four trajectories were formulated: (1) mild pull-out or range extension from a ballistic path, (2) longer pullout range extension followed by a dive to target, (3) significant cross-range maneuver, and (4) maximum 8o-g dive short of the ballistic aimpoint...Depending on flight range (i.e., reentry velocity and angle conditions), MBRV would have sufficient kinetic energy and aerodynamic lift to fly roughly 250-300 mi. downrange and over 150 mi. crossrange in either direction from its ballistic aimpoint. This led to a heart-shaped footprint capability

But doing so is not easy. Each flap in the MBRV would experience nearly 60,000 pounds of force and to actuate these flaps, GE Locomotive Division had developed hydraulic actuators of that capability for use on diesel railroad engines.

And after overcoming all these challenges when they were about to test, they found 4 soviet trawlers waiting near the impact point.

As an ending note: For all the TFTA-ness of Amreekis, just before the launch:

Dr. Krause's face turned ashen, then red with anger. "Why had we allowed the vehicle to be painted?" The paint would burn off during reentry and chemically destroy the vehicle's optical and radar signatures. This would cause increased plasma and was totally counter to ABRES program goals of suppressing all signatures. We had no option but to take the vehicle down and back to its hangar. GE managed to acquire crushed walnut shells and preceded to "nut-shell blast" all the paint off.

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Mar 2011 16:25

Anujan wrote:X-posting from Book review dhaaga, because it might be relevant

i think all the bureacratic babus involved in MOD and defence PSUs should read how 'hi tech' originated in the first place and all the trials and tribulations all the nations involved had to go through.Some of the people i know have the impression that everything had developed as is

and that only countries like US can develop hi tech

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2011 21:34

Kit I think you are woefull mistaken. Indian program had the support of the babus like nothing else.

-----------

Anujan,

I didn't know you were in the area. RB told me later! We had the very discussion you are having in great, great detail. BTW did you note Arun's name in the book!

That para on arty shells developing lift was what I think accounts for the Krasnopol inaccuracy in high mountains. The solution is shorter shell or more battery power to negate the extra lift.

You are right Prithivi is the forerunner of Boost Glide RVs for India. All are derivatives of that. Many idiots would deride it for the logistic tail without understanding its purpose.

Will see if we can get access to the presentation given by Arun to show how it relates to Indian programs. Essentially India has all three types: MRV, MARV and BGRV.

And did you note the studies in Europe of damage estimates in the modern urban areas and how that relates to Indian deterrent posture?

Kalamji truly broke the 'sixth' country syndrome!!!!

-----------------

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Mar 2011 21:52

ramana-ji
Would love to see Arun_S's presentation. You have my fourth cousin's email address. And yes, I noted his name in the book -- wanted to talk about it when I covered India's section.

I wanted to impress upon Rakshaks 3 things in this review/summary

1. The complexity of re-entry vehicles and how it is a truly advanced piece of science/engineering that Indians have mastered with 0 help from the west. We should be truly proud!!

2. Indian program is well thought out and is a logical progression from one technology to another. SDREs didnt just tie a stone to a raakit and hope that it will fall into the right place. One more point I didnt mention is that the first few tests done by the US were a miserable failure. Because all the world maps were wrong and the lagoon they were aiming for wasnt really in the place they thought it was!! This led to better map making. The author hints at the use of Cartographic satellites to get more accurate maps (which was the No 1 reason, at that time, for getting better missile accuracy). The concept of launching Cartographic satellites for getting accurate maps started setting off bulbs in my head

. Also for all the TFTA-ness of the US, what they showed was persistence and confidence. The program itself was a comedy of errors. They made a mockup of the warhead thinking that it could be tested by dropping it from a helicopter.....only later to realize that no helicopter could carry that much weight to that much height. The first few tests were failures in every way. The flotation devices didnt work in the mockups (and it sank into the sea), bench testing broke all electronic parts, first 2 launches were miserable failures (and experimental RVs worth millions was lost), the experimental RV itself was heavy Jugaad etc. Also described is the "weight distribution" headache. The center of gravity for a cone is far back (more mass there due to bigger dia) which if it falls much behind the center of pressure would cause it to tumble. On the other hand if CG and CP are far apart, it would make the warhead impossible to maneuver (too much stability). This along with the fact that aerodynamics dictate the shape and the fact that certain components could not be placed too close to the walls (too hot) means that they had some interesting times trying to shape the warhead and pack components inside. On top of it, they had to account for the shift in CG due to ablation...

3. After going through all this, I feel like pulling out my AK everytime someone says "Oh But Paki mating of bum to mijjiles is so much advanced than the SDREs!!!". Yeah right!! By a country which cant make a bicycle or a sewing machine.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2011 22:06

^ Well I thought the general consensus was Paki payload + delivery platform itself is actually a re-painted Cheena maal which in turn has matured over a period of time thanks to the help from USSR followed by Massa itself (until then their LM series was ridden with a series of failures some of them as serious as launch vehicle exploding in mid air and satellites being injected into incorrect orbits).

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2011 22:12

Anujan ji I have always had this question about mating of warheads with delivery platforms and ways to test the complete system (delivery platform + deliverable) , I wonder if the book in question answers it. Basically I wanted to know do we have any reference to tests conducted by Massa/SU or anyone in P-5 for that matter where they have actually managed to test a nuke which has been subjected to the kind of stress and g loads a n-package would have to withstand during the re-entry ?

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 04 Mar 2011 22:21

negi wrote:Anujan ji I have always had this question about mating of warheads with delivery platforms and ways to test the complete system (delivery platform + deliverable) , I wonder if the book in question answers it. Basically I wanted to know do we have any reference to tests conducted by Massa/SU or anyone in P-5 for that matter where they have actually managed to test a nuke which has been subjected to the kind of stress and g loads a n-package would have to withstand during the re-entry ?

I am sure the US and USSR have - pre PTBT, but PRC has the unique distinction of flying such a mated missile, over its own land mass and populated sectors. The funny thing is one of these tests failed but luckily that one was not mated!

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 04 Mar 2011 22:57

Anujan,
Thanks for your fascinating post. I wish that your book review could be formally published. (If that's not possible, I hope you post your review on amazon.com or somewhere else where it can be easily accessed.)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Mar 2011 23:15

Negi, In early 1960s there were three tests of sea launched vehicles, before the PTBT came into force. Might try wiki.

Anujan, Yes the IRS series was very useful for mapping the world in commerical domain.

I think moving Kalam to DRDL in late 70s was a masterful act for he had already worked on plans for atleast a minimum of ten years before that. His stint at ISRO was to perfect his ideas and Project Management skills.

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Mar 2011 23:17

Shaurya and Ramana saars got it. thanks.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Mar 2011 00:13

mated with real maal? wow.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 Mar 2011 13:10

negi wrote:Anujan ji I have always had this question about mating of warheads with delivery platforms and ways to test the complete system (delivery platform + deliverable) , I wonder if the book in question answers it. Basically I wanted to know do we have any reference to tests conducted by Massa/SU or anyone in P-5 for that matter where they have actually managed to test a nuke which has been subjected to the kind of stress and g loads a n-package would have to withstand during the re-entry ?

I have read this book few moons back. My views briefly..

1. The book covers comprehensively about Americal program.

2. About Indian program-basically the book has reprinted Arun_S previous BR missile page hosted here .. Most of the info is sourced from BR page apart from Wikipedia etc .. It is like reading BR missile page with some amateurish errors.. The author has done little research as far as Indian or Pakistani program is concerned.. If I remember correctly device being lowered for Buddha-II has been labeled as being baharat rakshak bomb or something like that.. But I do admit that this book does help in comprehending RV tech in general and to make some corollary inference about Indian RV program..

3. Paki and Indian program has been cited at similar technological level..

4. If somebody wants exhaustive credible technical information about Indian program then IMHO this will be shear waste of money.. but if somebody want’s to learn about the RV tech this is a great book to read..

This book can be brought in India from filpkart.com .. for me that was the cheapest place at around Rs.600/-

sum · Post by **sum** » 05 Mar 2011 15:02

If somebody wants exhaustive credible technical information about Indian program then IMHO this will be shear waste of money.. but if somebody want’s to learn about the RV tech this is a great book to read..

Which would be the best book for Indian program? Weapons of peace?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 05 Mar 2011 16:36

Hiten wrote:Dr. Gollakota, Project Director of the Astra programme speaks about Missile Technologies, especially those relevant to Indian Missiles - spends a fair amount of time speaking about Astra - poor audio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgMY2Wt6VaI

Good informative video, but the original is 30 minutes so I took the Astra only bits and some else which I thought interesting and made it into a 5 minute video, and improved the audio quality. It's here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIMb-28nqQ

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 05 Mar 2011 17:37

Indigenous interceptor missile trial tomorrow

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 06 Mar 2011 02:34

^^^
^^^

in the above video he says that new version of Astra which is MKII will have a range of 200+km due to dual pulse rocket motor

thats a great achievement IMHO for MKII with posiible dual mode seeker

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2011 03:27

Dinesha, Agree with what you say. However he endorsed what Arun had to say with his own background. And that added value. Yes there are typos and misprints and printer devils and he was made aware. A colleague said the US portion is damn accurate.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 06 Mar 2011 04:52

Ramana,
Thanks for the info. I might be in a position to have this book purchased for the library of an Indian educational institution; would you recommend that?

Also, could you give me your email address? I'd like to discuss something with you. By the way, I was hoping to see you at Aero India a few weeks ago, but I guess you were busy with other things.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 06 Mar 2011 05:27

shiv wrote:
Hiten wrote:Dr. Gollakota, Project Director of the Astra programme speaks about Missile Technologies, especially those relevant to Indian Missiles - spends a fair amount of time speaking about Astra - poor audio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgMY2Wt6VaI
Good informative video, but the original is 30 minutes so I took the Astra only bits and some else which I thought interesting and made it into a 5 minute video, and improved the audio quality. It's here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQIMb-28nqQ

nice info on seekers

seeker in derby has length of 1000 mm and weighs 20 kg compared to seeker from agat and matra

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Mar 2011 06:31

jaladipc wrote:^^^
^^^

in the above video he says that new version of Astra which is MKII will have a range of 200+km due to dual pulse rocket motor

thats a great achievement IMHO for MKII with posiible dual mode seeker

The voice says 100 km plus

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Mar 2011 06:42

It also says mach 5.5+

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 06 Mar 2011 10:27

India successfully test-fires interceptor missile
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... le_1516204

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 06 Mar 2011 10:52

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 514501.ece

An indigenously-developed Advanced Air Defence missile destroyed an incoming target missile, a modified Prithvi, at an altitude of 16 km over the Bay of Bengal.

In a successful interception test, an indigenously-developed Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile destroyed an incoming target missile, a modified Prithvi, at an altitude of 16 km over the Bay of Bengal on Sunday.

According to Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources, the modified Prithvi, which mimicked an incoming enemy missile took off from Chandipur, while the interceptor was launched from Wheeler Island within a few moments. As the “attacker” missile reached a height of 120 km and began its downward trajectory, the AAD equipped with state-of-the-art guidance system zeroed in on to the target and destroyed it at 9.37 a.m. The falling debris was tracked by various radars and sensors.

The sources said the entire mission went off in a copybook fashion and the trajectories of the both the missiles followed the pre-designated paths.

The Long Range radars and Multi Function Fire Control Radar tracked the target missile and passed on the information to the Mission Control Centre to launch the interceptor.

The test was carried out as part of India’s plan to deploy in the next few years a two-layered Ballistic Missile Defence shield to intercept and destroy incoming enemy missiles in endo- and exo-atmospheres.

Sunday’s test was witnessed by Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister V.K. Saraswat and other top DRDO officials.

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 06 Mar 2011 11:54

"India successfully tests missile interceptor"

Report on IBN:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-succes ... 106-3.html

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 06 Mar 2011 13:10

Hindustan Times: Missile interceptor successfully tested

India on Sunday successfully tested a ballistic missile interceptor from a defence base in Orissa, an official said. The home grown interceptor was fired from Wheeler Island off the state coast near Dhamra in Bhadrak district, about 170 km from Bhubaneswar, few minutes after the target missile was fired from a different location.

"It was a fantastic mission. It successfully hit the target," SP Dash, director of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, told IANS.

The target, a variant of the Prithvi II, lifted off from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur in Balasore district, about 70 km from Wheeler Island across the sea.

disha · Post by **disha** » 06 Mar 2011 13:17

Congratulations DRDO!

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 06 Mar 2011 15:47

good work. one more step closer to field a rudimentary BMD shield. I certainly hope that this project does not go under long gestation period.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 06 Mar 2011 15:49

Some Pics

PHOTOS: Indian Ballistic Missile Defence System Successfully Tested - LIVEFIST

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 06 Mar 2011 15:52

Christopher Sidor wrote:good work. one more step closer to field a rudimentary BMD shield. I certainly hope that this project does not go under long gestation period.

What do you find "rudimentary" about it? Just curious.