The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Prem]

I have never watched seriously RD since I learn't yoga myself a long time ago, but I am thankful to him for putting such Psecs in massive takleef. Very enjoyable to see them running like headless chickens.

I remember that the takleef is too much and hence someone wanted to disassociate the yoga from hinduism. This is all after the success of BR. BR is a phenomenon and that is the reason for such a massive upheaval in the mentally disturbed elite.

BRD phenomenon have put brakes on all the four wheels of the Paap ki Car.
Congressi Crook Commie Communal Queens
All these 4 corrupt forces are disturbed by BRD' s rise .
I think it is a good idea if the present "inte-intellectuals" like Ghose , Guha and Gandhi- Gambhini family try to bring Sanatan Dharm issue in fight with BRD.

[Venkarl]

Thankoo Atriji...for panning out

aaan..vedi vedi..massaala dosaiii

[KLNMurthy]

^^^ Devesh, The tragedy of the matter is that BRD's supporters are not illiterate and poor but are city bred, tax paying, pub hopping, mall ratting middle class people. These are the people who want the gain of political power but without the pain of even standing in the sun to vote. It is this class' hypocrisy and conceit, "are vote to 100 rupae mein bikhta hain" that are of concern to a liberal democracy.

Is Ramdev in favor of pubs? I thought he opposed even colas. My sense of BR demographic is that they are not the uber-anglicized elite but are more tradition-oriented. It does seem like a lot of fear & loathing by the DIE towards this latter class is coming out into the open, even here on BRF.

[rohitvats]

You're whining like a loser - this is not doable and that is not doable and hence, let us not do it

Oh now, insisting that anyone looking to play politics answer to the same standards of accountability that we demand of politicians is "whining"? So the Navy Chief asks for 10 nuclear submarines, 4 CBGs and 50 MPAs along with a military alliance with the US and Russia and transit rights to Thailand via Myanmar, all to be able to defend India against China - someone points out the "bizarreness" of the idea, he is whining?!

Well, well, well...what do we have here? strawman to strike down another strawman? Running out of semantics and hair splitting ideas, are we? Is the above all that you could come up with?

Especially if the entire attempt simply lets the govt off the hook on the really tough questions..On the agenda that is unfinished for long...On the growth that is seemingly flagging...

And who is asking those questions and what is the progress? Eye-wash to cover more eye-wash?

Purely on the issue of corruption and black money - refer to my post above -there is a big laundry list of pending "reforms", that will tackle the very issuies at their hearts...Not my ideas, they have been around for a long time...Now is the time to press on the pressure on the govt to implement..But no, we shall rather have this tamasha whose message is this garbled rubbish...Allowing the govt some more time and space to dither on the decisiosn making..

And who is going to ensure that GOI actually carries out the so-called laundry list of pending reforms. And secondly, press on with what? Intellectual mastruba*** of the variety we see ding-dongs from JNU and other associated intellegentsia? What is wrong with protest and dharna by BRD? Does someone have exclusive right in on the agenda? Or is it that it does not fit your sensibilities and definition? Well, wake up and smell the coffee. There is another India out there and this is how it has chosen to tackle the issue......if BRD was a charltan or some other godman, GOI aka congress would not have had to do what it did. There is enough anger and frustration in the public and he is one of the vents through which it is coming out.

Which is why the efforts of Arvind K and Co is refreshingly stark...They have insisted upon, and made a difference..The govt has had to take verifiable, concrete steps on Lokpal..They havent been able to obfuscate the issue behind saffron, RSS, thug et al...The reason? Arvind K and Co are in it for the purpose they state (I have heard Arvind K a few times in his younger days face-to-face - the passion for public service and sincerity showed through), not for political brand building...Hence, the message is more important - the messenger, essentially AH is a totem pole to get media attention.....

Very nice. So you'd pit one person against the other. And one set of ideas are gilt edged while that of others gibberish.

And what has the saffron got to do with it? Does RSS not have the right to ask for reforms? Or does some one wearing saffron automatically becomes disqualified from asking for his right? As you said, concentrate on the message and not the messanger - so, why this fascination with RSS or Saffron? Let the message get across. The government is jittery because it knows that because it is on very sticky wicket - BRD has the potential to threaten the very existence of Congress government and hence, the frontal assault to mlign him. AK can ask only for things here and there...something the GOI can live with. But BRD represents a far higher challenge.

If anything, this whole BRD issue has brought the corruption and black-money issue to center stage and forced the GOI aka congress to show its hand. A BRD can force a far more permanent change in the system than what AK can hope to do.

[archan]

Prem, please don't bring it down to the level of street fight lingo. This debate is acrimonious as it is.

[brihaspati]

The saints are coming
Hindustan Times
June 09, 2011
The stage is set, the actors are ready. All we now need is the government to lift the curtains on the greatest midsummer’s show since it ran to a packed globe. New Delhi’s Boat Club lawns are no longer off limits, say the courts. Baba Ramdev is chaffing to unleash hordes of yogis on them. Let’s hope the government sees the merit in this naked display of power. A sea of well-preserved Hindu flesh going through the paces on a June afternoon is by far a greater show of India’s might than any Republic Day parade of creaky tanks.

‘Holy Ardha Vakrasan!’ the generals will exclaim, as they return to their war rooms to re-evaluate India’s incredible capabilities.

Yes, what is so unacceptable is the possibility of "Hindu flesh being preserved" at all, let alone "preserved well"! Mention "Yogis" with "hordes" - conjure up the image of "hordes" - all those trained to the cue, should immediately start recalling how their "school" history text books or B-movies and even eminent "historians" laid out all the atrocities of Islamist to the oh-so-non-Islamic blood-thirstiness of the central-Asian "hordes".

As for the intrepid Baba, he seems to be on the ball about graft. Humanity’s first recorded bribe was paid by an Indian — Indra was easily the most corrupt king the gods ever had or will.

Now this gives out source of education and upbringing - a system which edits out all references to "bribes" or "dark deeds" from the Christian and the Islamic, and all heaped on the plate of "Indians". Funny, no hilarious - that none of the p-sec p-nationalists here have jumped in with double rotfl's to laugh - what Indra was an "Indian"? Indra not a mythological imagination? Indra a real person? "India" existed before the Brits in their infinite colonial wisdom created "it"? But then weren't the "Vedas" written down so-oo late? And "Vedas" are a "recorded" history?

But then what about the numerous references to "bribery" by kings and non-kings in the Old Testament? Samuel/Judges/Isaisah? This was not taught in the Bible classes?

Actually the Baba is right on his "balls" - especially if he does it sitting on Delhi - where the Delhi Sultanate and the Mughals made "bribery" a part of life - refined to an art-form!

The cure for a malaise as old as the Vedas must also be sought in them. It takes the genius of a Ramdev to unleash the power of yoga on sleaze.

Those of us who have neither had our palms greased nor twisted our bodies into crazy pretzels will, of course, watch the triumph of good over evil and cheer at the right time. But the show we must see. We’ve paid the cover charge many times over.

No, the "malaise" must be only tagged to the "Vedas" even if references abound in the Christian theological texts and the Islamic ones - no mention can be made to them of course, even if they are an "integral part" of India and have contributed oh-so-much towards enriching "India".

Yet the yogi will not exult over his victory. For he knows that the battle of the righteous is never done. The mighty warrior Krishna has promised to return every time dharma is beleaguered.

Sometimes as pig, sometimes as turtle. Why not as an army of sadhus?

http://www.hindustantimes.com/The-saint ... 07656.aspx

Ah then Krishna and "sadhus" are not unique too! Revelation 19 :

After that I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse [appeared]! The One Who was riding it is called Faithful (Trustworthy, Loyal, Incorruptible, [there you go again - why talk of corruption? be real smell the coffee! look at how real world runs and how corruption is a way of life!] Steady) and True, and He passes judgment and wages war in righteousness (holiness, justice, and uprightness).

12His eyes [blaze] like a flame of fire, and on His head are many kingly crowns (diadems); and He has a title (name) inscribed which He alone knows or can understand.

13He is dressed in a robe dyed by [c]dipping in blood, and the title by which He is called is The Word of God.[come on...thats too gory, isnt it?]

14And the troops of heaven, clothed in fine linen, dazzling and clean, followed Him on white horses.

15From His mouth goes forth a sharp sword with which He can smite (afflict, strike) the nations; and He will shepherd and control them with a staff (scepter, rod) of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath and indignation of God the All-Ruler (the Almighty, the Omnipotent).[what happened to the peaceful lamb? will MKG's soul be spared?]

16And on His garment (robe) and on His thigh He has a name (title) inscribed, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

17Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sun's [d]light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God,

18That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great![poor humanity - just like those gathered in Ramlila maidan]

19Then I saw the beast and the rulers and leaders of the earth with their troops mustered to go into battle and make war against Him Who is mounted on the horse and against His troops.

20And the beast was seized and overpowered, and with him the false prophet who in his presence had worked wonders and performed miracles by which he led astray those who had accepted or permitted to be placed upon them the stamp (mark) of the beast and those who paid homage and gave divine honors to his statue [hmm Baba fits the bill isnt it?]. Both of them were hurled alive into the fiery lake that burns and blazes with brimstone.

21And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh.

[KLNMurthy]

It is getting very hard for me to accept that somnath is debating in good faith, given that he consistently lays claim to being more knowledgeable than others. The best I can say is that this may all be some kind of "Rashomon" phenomenon, with people holding completely different views, all in good faith, and it is a lesson in how hard communication can be.

http://bharat-swabhiman.com/en/baba-ram ... atyagraha/

The demands are arranged in order of priority..

Fantastic - I hadnt seen all of this in one place before (not here either)..But anyways, if this is the list, I am surprised why the govt didnt either agree 100% or disagree 100% - what was that 1% left "in the air" - its so superficial that accepting everything in toto or the other way round, both could have been justified equally well...

Lets see..

1. Declare accounts of Indians in tax havens as national property - GOI must declare all tax haven accounts of Indian corrupts to be national property through an ordinance and later with enactment of a bill. This is a very easy step to execute and does not conflict with any foreign policy, treaty or agreement.

One, what is "national property"? To be liberal, lets assume that what he means is to "attach" the property/money...But hang on, you can attach the property/money of people you can identify, isnt it? Second, one has to prove that the money was acquired through "criminal" means for it to be attached...Third, the banks offshore need to be convinced to part with client info - something even the mighty US had trouble getting out of UBS in a very very small level...Its something that multilateral bodies like FATF have struggled with even for serious issues like terror funding trails and the like...And this is supposed to be "easy to execute"!!! The govt is supposed to attach monies whose ownership it doesnt know, whose location is not known, whose details are at the mercy of complex international financial treaties - I guess the only way to do that would be to invoke the spirits to give virtual imagery of the details..

Are you really unaware of how countries deal with this issue? US has been working through the offshore bank accounts issue in a systematic way, at least under Obama. Jews have done similar things with Nazi moneys and artifacts stashed away in Swiss banks.

Tax evasion itself is a crime. Are you really unaware that there is something called financial forensics for tracking money in a systematic way? Are you really unaware that organized crime laws in the US and other places resort to prosecuting financial crimes (notably tax evasion) even when they don't have enough of a case for the original crime?

In principle, it is known how to execute these things; all depends on what is meant by "easy"--it wil require professional staff to do it and takes some time, and "easy" may be an overstatement, but it doesn't justify acting like the whole notion is ridiculous.

2. Declare stashing away black money in tax havens as national crime - GOI must declare the act of stashing away of black money in swiss banks as a ‘Rajdroh’ or national crime because it has led to disasters in our country. 883 people die every HOUR just because of malnutrition and hunger whereas corrupt people out there are carrying out scams worth lakhs of crores which could be used for the development of our nation. Such big scams are only because stashing away of money in swiss banks is very easy for the corrupt.

What is a "national crime" again? Hmmm, and why is only stashing the money away in tax havens criminal, why not stashing it under one's bed? But lets let such small details pass...Seems that the good Baba and his advisors mix up two very different issues - corruption and black money...The former is a criminal offence, it involvves cheating or defrauding someone/public/govt...The latter is about not paying tax on certain income/txn that one is supposed to...Black money can be generated through criminal activities, but it can also be generated througg legal activities, like business and investments...But again, why bother with such practical niceties when rhetoric will do..

You say, time and again, when called on a point, "where did I say that?" Where does RD say that money-in-mattress is not a crime? Doesn't it stand to reason that it is far more practical to use bank accounts for large-scale economic crimes?

I would expect "national crime" would be something like treason, carrying out a coup, etc. It is not that hard to get the point for anyone with even modest intelligence.

3. Death penalty and lifetime imprisonment for the corrupt - GOI must pass a law to enforce death penalty or lifetime imprisonment on people who are found to be guilty of corrupt practices. The only reason that corruption is so widespread today is that there is no punishment for the corrupt and they enjoy luxurious freedom inspite of putting the nation at stake.

Hmmm...Finally something that is objective and clear...But practical as a deterrent?! Well, lets not get into that..At least soemthing that expresses a clear POV..

Why not go into it? Is it perhaps beneath you to engage with a policy idea that at least one huge country like the PRC has adopted, and many regimes have adopted in history? Come on, guy, is there any seriousness or respect at the bottom of your seemingly inexhaustible well of superciliousness?

5. Setting up of fast track courts in all states to deal specially with corruption issues - The government needs to setup fast track courts in all the states so that punishing the corrupt becomes easy. Crores of cases are pending in courts at the moment which would take years to clear up. We need faster execution and stronger laws to deal with this cancer

Mass of motherhood statements...There already are special "fast track" CBI (and some other) courts for major corruption cases...Need "faster execution and stronger laws" - what laws, what changes in execution? Again, the point has been done, so why bother with the minutiae of practical implementability...

Do you know the difference between a statement of objectives / goals / platform and the detailed implementation plan?

6. Removal of high denomination currency notes from the economy – Government should immediately recall high denomination notes from the economy to prevent internal black money formation. Today we have 100 lakh crores of black money circulating inside our economy and thats because Rs. 1000, Rs.500 notes make it easier for corrupt people to transport, carry and store large sums of money for purpost of illegal and corrupt dealings. These notes should be removed immediately. There is no use of these notes when 80 crore+ people in our country live on a daily income of Rs.20 and never get the luxury of even seeing a Rs.500 note.

.Obviously proceeds from illegal transactions are ferried in trucks as 500 rupee notes, taken to some physical currency exchange and then shipped to Switzerland! Econ 99?

Earlier you were complaining that the statement doesn't address cash-under-mattress. Now you are sneering when it does exactly that. Why not address the main idea which is demonetization to bring money back into the system? Has it never been done? Did Argentina do it? Did China do it, in some form at least?

7. Educational curriculum in Bharatiya Languages - Curriculum and examinations of engineering, medical, agriculture should be made available in Bharatiye languages too and as fast as possible so that even a villager can get education properly instead of being deprived on the name of a foreign language(English) which we are using as the primary mode of education even after 64 years of independence. What a shame! We are not against english. But we must learn to respect our own languages first.

What can I say? Besides the absurdity of the proposal itself, how is it relevant to corruption or black money?

The document is about the objectives of RD's movement. Black money is a part of it. Education in native language is another part of it. Is that hard to understand?

What can you say? How about, "I read this and have xyz opinion about it?" Chinese, Russians to name only a couple of countries, teach science in their native languages, and do just fine. RD says explicitly he is not against teaching English. It is a fact that teaching in English excludes children from families without a background in English. They have much less of a chance of understanding math and science. I have seen this, I have experienced this. Have you? Do you have anything useful to offer about this?

8. Ban the Land Acquisition Act - This act was brought by the Britishers to loot us and what a shame that we still have this law and its also being used to loot the poor farmers till date who are the people providing and catering to the hunger needs of our nation. This agricultural loot needs to be stopped NOW!

BAN the Act! And do what? Build India on thin air? Again, not clear on how banning this ACt will take care of corruption..

Eminent Domain aka Land Acquisition has been a huge source of corruption and illegal enrichment of politicians in India. Are you really not aware of this? Giving up agricultural land for industry has been done in a reckless and thoughtless way, without considering food security, local economy, and property rights. We have seen this in Singur and recently in UP. Are you really so naive or ignorant as to think and claim that this has nothing to do with corruption?

9. Direct election of the Prime Minister - History has shown that indirect selection of Prime Ministers has only lead to political troubles because most of the time the PM is busy safeguarding his chair putting national interest at stake. Political instability and personal conflicts in parties lead to instability in the governance just because of this reason. So the PM should be directly elected by the people and should be directly accountable to the citizens of this country.

??? This is supposed to be an implementable programme?

Again, astonishing skepticism from you, in the face of innumerable counterexamples. I personally think this is a bad idea as I have nightmares about Indira Gandhi with a national mandate, but it is at least debatable.

10. Enactment of a strong Public Service Delivery Guarantee Act - If any citizen is denied service by any govt official within a stipulated period of time then the concerned official will have to pay penalty in the form of money to the particular citizen on a daily/weekly basis. This will help to make execution of government offices faster and prevent laziness and bribery

Not sure how it prevents bribery, but a reasonable point...


All in all, a bunch of feel good statements interspersed with some really bizarre ones - and we are to take this as a serious "civil society engagement" exercise? Well people who do are obviously welcome to do so, but the sheer lack of thought to tackle the substantive issue is glaringly clear...

Why not cut the man and his group some slack? They are learning as they go along. They are obviously not as polished as might be desired, and are flawed. Does that mean they have to be dismissed and trashed?

You keep praising the Hazare-Kejariwal group's work, but personally I found their documents to be mostly incoherent self-serving rubbish, saying things like, we should have PIOs who are winners of Nobel Prizes and Magsaysay award winners running the show, and constantly backpedalling when challenged. And they are supposed to be all professionals. The only difference I see is that, other than Hazare himself, the group is mostly well-versed in English and cosmpolitan, contrasted with the more Indish style of RD & his people.

Here are some links to a comprehensive critique of the Hazare-Kejariwal group's work by Krishen Kak, a retired IAS officer; I don't know whether they are already posted here, but anyway...


Jai ho, Jan Jokepal

The company that Hazare keeps

No Government has acted so sternly against corruption like us

The ox calling the donkey horned : Il bue che dà del cornuto all’asino –

A Frankenstein’s monster that will devour all of us” –

Those who don’t know history are destined to repeat it

[ramana]

politics party guy a diehard Sonia supporter (Sonia cant ever do any wrong) worries about her unreported trip to Europe following her son's similar trip.

http://www.politicsparty.com/SONIA_FOREIGN_TRIP.php

[brihaspati]

A lot has been made of the "extra-constitutional" activities of the Baba and there has been a plethora of invectives - "blackmail", "anti-democratic", "seeking power by the backdoor", trying to delegitimize the elected "givernment", challenging the authority of the state, etc.

I am still waiting for an answer to my two posts raising the issue of why "fatwas" are not seen as extra-constitutional bypassing of the authority of the state? Let us compare the arguments being applied on Ramdev and those that came out about Taslima Nasreen.

Facing charges of "threatening" Taslima, Owaisi remarked :
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/aug/11taslima.htm

Akbaruddin Owaisi, who is in the eye of a storm after the TV news channels claimed that he held out threats to kill or behead Taslima Nasreen if she came to Hyderabad again, told rediff.com, "I never said that we will kill her or behead her. This is all distortion. What I said is that there is a 'fatwa' against her. It is the responsibility of Muslims to abide by the fatwa and being a Muslim I will also abide by the fatwa."

Note that the MIM activists are booked on [or sought to be booked on]

sections 147 and 18 (rioting with deadly weapons), 323 (voluntarily causing hurt), 427 (mischief causing damage to property), 452 (trespass after preparation for hurt, assault and wrongful restraint), and 506 (criminal intimidation) of Indian Penal Code read with section 149 of Criminal Procedure Code. Sections 147, 148 and 506 of IPC are non-bailable offences.

none of which includes the charge of inciting "communal disharmony", which is slapped on Taslima

section 153 (A) of IPC for "promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion, race, place of birth, residence, language etc and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony."

What was this "fatwa" Owaisi is talking about as binding on all Muslims?
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Kolkata-s ... 42954.aspx

A week after Muslim fundamentalists assaulted Taslima Nasreen in Hyderabad, some Muslim leaders here revived an old fatwa against her, telling her to leave the country and offering an unlimited amount of money to anybody who would kill her. SM Noorur Rehman Barkati, Shahi Imam of the Tipu Sultan mosque, and leaders of the Majlish Banchao Tanjim (MBT) made the announcement during Friday prayers. “If she does not leave within a month, she will face dire consequences. We have also asked the government not to renew her visa and deport her,” MBT spokesperson Majid Ullah Khan said. The MBT is a breakaway group of the Majlis-e-Ittehadul Muslimeen, which had attacked the author in Hyderabad.

Imam Barkati pointed out that the fatwa was an extension of the one issued in 1993 after the release of Lajja. But unlike the current fatwa, the earlier one promised had Rs 1 lakh to anyone who would assault or kill the author.

“Taslima has spoken against Islam and Prophet Muhammad and we will go to any extent to eliminate her,” Khan said. He added that the MBT would meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress president Sonia Gandhi to demand Taslima’s ouster.

What was this 1993 "fatwa"? That was issued in Bangladesh by clerics there! Yes, of course wiki reports

Back in India, the "All India Muslim Personal Law Board" offered 500,000 rupees for her beheading in March 2007. The group's president, Tauqir Raza Khan, said the only way the bounty would be lifted was if Nasrin "apologises, burns her books and leaves."

The BD fatwa is well known, the 2007 "peaceful demos" along completely "in-constitutional lines" in Kolkata - is also well-known. Even videos are available.

Now the question is, an Indian "group" comes out in the streets - "extending" a "fatwa" given outside India, and implements it or tries to expand on it outside the "Constitution" and "electoral process" - and no midnight"raid", no breaking of skulls and spines, no rant from the p-sec p-nationalists?

Come on do you find all this "extra-constitutional" or not? a threat and challenge to the authority of the state or not? Why were your voices not being heard on this? If the government and the Congress did not find it "extra-constitutional" then can it claim any legitimacy on calling Ramdev's move "extra-constitutional, "anti-demoractic", and holding the state ransom bypassing the electoral process?

[praksam]

politics party guy a diehard Sonia supporter (Sonia cant ever do any wrong) worries about her unreported trip to Europe following her son's similar trip.

http://www.politicsparty.com/SONIA_FOREIGN_TRIP.php

Ramana Ji , There is the Bilderberg conf. also taking place around this time.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mai ... s-scrutiny

A secretive cabal of some of the world’s most influential people known as the Bilderberg group will be meeting from June 9 to the 12th in St. Moritz, Switzerland — but this year, more attention than usual is being afforded to the gathering in the world press.

[negi]

Somnath you are shifting goal posts here; even if one were to play a game of semantics it would help to know that the issue at hand is not of 'tax evasion' it is in fact related to far more serious criminal offenses like 'money laundering', hawala or even kickbacks recieved from third party agents. Moreover niether BRD nor anyone here is complaining about 'chawanni chors' i.e. mango tax evaders who understate their earnings this is specifically about individual accounts in tax havens where no mango man can even open an account if he/she were to pool in all their savings.

Secondly I am kind of amused to see BRD's agitation being pulled down by making references to his personal views on homosexuality , seriously HTF does that matter ? Did anyone ask the same question to MMS or Madam ji ? BRD might have different take on a lot of other things and one might not neccessarily agree with them but I don't see how they have a bearing on what he is doing on the Black Money front.

I am sure if you wanted to defend him you could have pulled some data in support of the argument; after all some time back you were defending Binayak Sen, no ? Why didn't the pragmatic in you support the gobermund's action then ?

The way I see things there are simply too many big fishes involved in this mess and it makes sense to have some sort of mass public agitation against the problem for that is how one empowers the few good men in the 'system'.

[Sushupti]

Ramana Ji , There is the Bilderberg conf. also taking place around this time.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-mai ... s-scrutiny

then what about this statement:

Husain was doyen of the art world: Sonia
http://www.newkerala.com/news/2011/worldnews-3998.html

[ramana]

If you note the fine print, its a statement released. No reporter saw her make that statement. So it could still be a standard stock statement altered to fit the occassion. So its not proof of her being in India.

[IndraD]

Q from yesterday is still relevant;how is BR's fast going to end

1. Will GoI talk to him (no perhaps)
2. Will Uttarakhand govt intervene?(will have to, it can't let him die)
3. BR breaks fast on his own

what if he develops an acute medical condition which is life threatening?

[devesh]

Brihaspati garu,

the P-secs including our very own resident enlightened ones will never talk about Fatwas. we can keep reminding them. and they will shamelessly continue to ignore and keep mum on it. let's see how Somnath and others react to this issue, now that you've gotten into more details and posted links from authentic enlightened P-sec newspapers...

[Jarita]

If you note the fine print, its a statement released. No reporter saw her make that statement. So it could still be a standard stock statement altered to fit the occassion. So its not proof of her being in India.

Her secret visits (Last years disappearance to England and many more) are worrisome from a national security perspective. These are not actions of a nationalist leader

[devesh]

^^^
when people are running the country who're not even part of your culture, or don't even recognize or acknowledge it as legitimate history of the country, then that is what we get....they can't be called traitors, b/c they never did belong to "us" in the first place to switch loyalties later on. they were always outsiders who played insiders....

[harbans]

I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

First: After 10 pages of discussion the most pertinent question that was put forward was by Somnath ji. What is that 'this' that they demand?. The ridicule on this board to that question and subsequent replies to that were IMHO inconsiderate, innacurate, and a blatant lie.

Second: Atri Ji posted for the first time on the site a detailed list of demands of specifics for the fast.

Third: The demands are controversial to some extent. If not, they do involve legal, political and Economic study to fulfill. Not a fast to death.

Fourth: I have a lot of respect for BR. He is extremely good in what he does. A topper and class A product in that class. If he was in the Army he'd be a General or more.

Fifth: INC, Sonia, MMS, Digvijay make me sad at how they denigrate Hinduism.

Sixth: I have absolutely no doubt that Somnath ji wants not to denigrate Hinduism. Not one iota of doubt on that.

Seventh: Baba Ramdev is a simple person with really good intentions. We all can learn a lot from him, but he is NOT Swami Vivekananda or Aurobindo, Let's be very clear about that.

Eigth: We all are feel frustrated about corruption. But do you sincerely think that BR or AH can eliminate it? I don't, not on the specifics laid out.

Ninth: The most positive ideas and ways on eliminating corruption can only be suggested by people who understand deeply the economics and legal issues involved. Somnath ji is one of them. Read every line what he posts.

Tenth: Somnath Ji: Thanks for posting your views. I learn a lot from you in a field i have little knowledge about. I may not agree with some of your view points, but i appreciate your posts and analysis on BRF.

Peace.

[krisna]

^^^^
Harbans,
no one disagrees with somnath regarding certain issues he puts forth.
He does not follow his own rules of engagement which he expects from others. He evades or ignores some inconvenient ones-- no wonder many get migraines reading post after post of his.

see my post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1107413

similarly everyone has their own posts refuting his arguments- some nicely done some not so nicely done.

when talking about any subject including corruption, one should be honest/open.(at least that is what I expect). No one here claims to have the answer for everything.

[CRamS]

harbans:

You forgot the most egregious issue that bugs me and others. No matter what BR's demands are, was unleashing police brutality on him and his supporters the right thing to do?

[krisna]

I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

First: After 10 pages of discussion the most pertinent question that was put forward was by Somnath ji. What is that 'this' that they demand?. The ridicule on this board to that question and subsequent replies to that were IMHO inconsiderate, innacurate, and a blatant lie.

Second: Atri Ji posted for the first time on the site a detailed list of demands of specifics for the fast.

Third: The demands are controversial to some extent. If not, they do involve legal, political and Economic study to fulfill. Not a fast to death.

Fourth: I have a lot of respect for BR. He is extremely good in what he does. A topper and class A product in that class. If he was in the Army he'd be a General or more.

Fifth: INC, Sonia, MMS, Digvijay make me sad at how they denigrate Hinduism.

Sixth: I have absolutely no doubt that Somnath ji wants not to denigrate Hinduism. Not one iota of doubt on that.

Seventh: Baba Ramdev is a simple person with really good intentions. We all can learn a lot from him, but he is NOT Swami Vivekananda or Aurobindo, Let's be very clear about that.

Eigth: We all are feel frustrated about corruption. But do you sincerely think that BR or AH can eliminate it? I don't, not on the specifics laid out.

Ninth: The most positive ideas and ways on eliminating corruption can only be suggested by people who understand deeply the economics and legal issues involved. Somnath ji is one of them. Read every line what he posts.

Tenth: Somnath Ji: Thanks for posting your views. I learn a lot from you in a field i have little knowledge about. I may not agree with some of your view points, but i appreciate your posts and analysis on BRF.

Peace.

some nitpickings from my side-

1) I did not understand your first question- am poor at grasping it. Coud you be more explicit.

2) Atri posted detailed list of BRD. In fact somnath should have done that considering his outbursts on BRD. He is a person who tends to get facts from reputable sources compared to other brfites or so he claims. By not doing the basic homework/high standards he set himself as in many other posts in other dhaagas - he wore soosai vests.

3) Fast to death is a prerogative of the individual. one person thinks it is a reasonable right to do. BRD is a person capable of taking decisions on his own right. He is not forcing others against their will to do. Demands may be controversial Involve legal political economic study etc. what stops GOI from all these. they could have acted early itself , saving from this ugly brutal subjugation of its own citizens.

4) Your feelings duly noted for BRD.

5) INC/SG/Diggy/MMS etc--- well somnath does not vehemently deny or support them as he does for BRD etc. He only mildy rebukes them compared to BRD posts. This is the impression he gives many of us (esp me) reading his posts.

6) does not tally with point 5). I am mango sdre I cannot understand it.

7) Many of us are clear about BRD SV and Aurobindo. some in the media do hyperbole sort to bring the seriousnes of the situation. Many a time a person’s stature grow or dim with passage of time. It is too early to compare the former great souls with the current one.
8 ) Again none is 400% confident that corruption will be eliminated. Even if Lord Krishna comes as an avataar, it is not possible.
9) Somnath does post some relevant ones- many are appreciative of it. But with barrage of posts with little matter does no good. The message does get lost with it. As they used to say in kirket commentary- diarrhea of words and constipation of ideas.

[bhavin]

I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

First: After 10 pages of discussion the most pertinent question that was put forward was by Somnath ji. What is that 'this' that they demand?. The ridicule on this board to that question and subsequent replies to that were IMHO inconsiderate, innacurate, and a blatant lie.

Second: Atri Ji posted for the first time on the site a detailed list of demands of specifics for the fast.

Third: The demands are controversial to some extent. If not, they do involve legal, political and Economic study to fulfill. Not a fast to death.

Fourth: I have a lot of respect for BR. He is extremely good in what he does. A topper and class A product in that class. If he was in the Army he'd be a General or more.

Fifth: INC, Sonia, MMS, Digvijay make me sad at how they denigrate Hinduism.

Sixth: I have absolutely no doubt that Somnath ji wants not to denigrate Hinduism. Not one iota of doubt on that.

Seventh: Baba Ramdev is a simple person with really good intentions. We all can learn a lot from him, but he is NOT Swami Vivekananda or Aurobindo, Let's be very clear about that.

Eigth: We all are feel frustrated about corruption. But do you sincerely think that BR or AH can eliminate it? I don't, not on the specifics laid out.

Ninth: The most positive ideas and ways on eliminating corruption can only be suggested by people who understand deeply the economics and legal issues involved. Somnath ji is one of them. Read every line what he posts.

Tenth: Somnath Ji: Thanks for posting your views. I learn a lot from you in a field i have little knowledge about. I may not agree with some of your view points, but i appreciate your posts and analysis on BRF.

Peace.

Harbansji,

Just like you, I don't mean to defend the posters here - Below are my thoughts on some of your points mentioned above:
1. I did not come across any earlier replies to Somnath that were inconsiderate, inaccurate or blatant lie. The issue was that even when presented with points, the responses were to ridicule the ideas contained in the demand as well as the person putting forth the ideas. Baba Ramdev has identified issues that he feels are important for growth and progress of the nation. Does he need to have a dossier with all the steps outlined to implement each of his points? His first priority is to get the aam aadmi to understand the broad issue which can then be fleshed out into an action plan with appropriate inputs. Just discounting his proposal because it does not have all the steps listed IMHO is dishonest.

3. If I understand correctly, Baba Ramdev is not asking for changes in the laws or actions on his list within the fast-to-death timeframe. All he is asking for is that govt acknowledge the issue and start taking concrete steps to ameliorate the current situation.

8. Eliminating corruption is not going to happen overnight. It is going to be a long hard road just like a junkie who decides to quit drugs. But a start has to be made somewhere. I am reminded of the Arjun saga in this argument. Army wants a super duper tank from day one instead of working in iterations to get to an ideal product. Similarly, eliminating corruption will require its own mk1, mk2 iterations and it won't be perfect from day 1.

9. Going with your argument, MMS and his team of economists would be best situated to work on corruption. Sadly those eminent economists are either unwilling or unable to take any steps. One thing I realized today watching Times Now news hour - on UNCAC congress (Jayanti Natarajan) says it has signed the treaty but looking on the website http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/treaties/ ... ories.html it clearly shows that while they may have ratified the treaty, they have not signed it. The BJP guy called her out on this. It is this kind of sophistry that the country has been subjected to so far and nothing seems to be changing which is why even non-qualified people are speaking up and they should be heard as long as they are not advocating treason or sedition against India.

These are my thoughts and while I am not as erudite and polished in putting forth my arguments unlike quite a few of the posters here including somnath, brihaspati, rudradev, ramana, shiv, rahul m, etc.. etc... , I hope you understand the major thrust of my arguments.

[Atri]

@ Harbans ji,

Your PoV has my support too. I think I have a huge leftist and naastika side in me as well. But there is fundamental difference. I will explain how a westernized convent educated Indian like me who is trying to remove the glasses and see the real deal about what it is being a dharmik, sees this affair.

The fact that genuine sanyasi like BR had to indulge in "worldly affairs" show the extent of loss, India has had. When the Grihasthas and Brahmacharis have failed their duty, the sanyasis have to come out and get "involved" in an idea. One has to understand under what conditions, one takes up sanyasa. It is one of the most dire vows where one has to do the Shraadha-karma (symbolic funeral rites) of oneself. People may laugh on it, but I have known personally many such Fanne-Khans who returned back to home in today's secure world, as they could not withstand the idea of one's own "Tarpana". It is a complete formatting of thinking procedure and painful and forcible severing of one's linkage not only with family, caste but one's identity. Narendranath Dutt becomes Vivekananda. Ramkishan Yadav becomes ramdev. Aptitudes of both may or may not be comparable, SV is dead, BRD is still alive and can do many things ahead, who knows. But commitment is definitely comparable and commendable. The age when Narendranath Dutt was reading books and joining in Brahmo discussions with his father, BRD was pulling plough in farm with is illiterate father and suffering paralysis. The formative years of SV and BRD are totally different, so are the eras in which they exist and also their deeds. So, comparison is moot point.

The fact that a "Jeeva" went so far had to return back to "bondages" tells us that there is something terribly wrong with India and Hindu society today. Western education might scoff this way of looking towards life. We all are educated in that school. yet, some of us, become MUTUs and start ridiculing this sacrifice creates disconnect. The DIE refuse to accept that this is sacrifice.

Yes, there is corruption in every aspect, including sanyasa. But, there are people who genuinely indulge in Daana. When an "ashrama" which upholds everything that traditional India stands for starts attracting money from people who genuinely wish to donate for the cause of "Sanskriti Rakshana", the DIE type start calling it "Business Empire". This is painful to all those of us who are not so deracinated and have maintained the roots.. The DIE fail to see and understand that not everything is business.

Baba is not economist. Baba is not supposed to be economist. But he commands trust of many who are reputed economists. People like Vishwabandhu Gupta, Rajiv Dixit and many others are not stupid jerks. They know what they are talking about. These suggestions about foreign banks, ordinance to nationalize bank accounts are not administrative impossibilities as it is made out to be. It is something which is doable. At least it is something which can be argued upon. Yet, you have seen the behaviour of Regime and Regime sympathisers.. They are singularly dismissive of BRD.

The people who came out to support BRD were people drawn from all classes. The people who donated money to BRD to form his 1100 crore trust came from all classes. They did so because they believed that something "good" can happen through this institution known as "ramdev". And a lot of good is happening. It would have continued to happen so, if politicians and policy makers of India were doing their duty.

I don't think BRD has any political ambitions for his own. People attacking him, attack not only his lack of knowledge, but also his sincerity. With all due respect to AH and kejariwal and civil society (an oxymoron in itself), how many people's respect do these guys command. I have been seeing AH for almost 30 years now in MH. While he is a relatively well known for his tussle with Suresh Jain, he does not command respect of a dedicated work-force. Kejariwal, Bhushans, Kiran Bedi, nobody does.

In Democracy, nothing can happen without "Lok-Sangraha". And this "Lok-sangraha" is done by BRD, hence there were so many people present for AH's fast yesterday. When erudite people like Somnath ji start willifying such figures, they only need to do a reality check. Democracy needs people's participation and How many people respect arrogant knowledge? Once people start participating, the knowledgeable folks are attracted too and through these people, things happen.

The Jalaram Bappa of Guj, or Sai Baba of Shirdi, Gajanan Maharaj of Vidarbha and similar other "modern saints" were neither scholars, nor erudite pandits. they did not even preach anything. Yet, today they have created a lasting infrastructure which does Lokseva. Similar is example of Sathya Sai baba of Puttuparthi. "Guni" and "right-minded" people are attracted towards such "Banyan tress" and these trees give not only shelter to distressed, but opportunity to talented too to show their talent in particular field in right direction. BRD is such an institution.

He had potential to be Aadhunik Ramdas Swami OR Adhunik Vidyaranya Swami. may be he will, OR may be his "jeeva" has decided something else. Whatever the decision of that Jeeva is henceforth, he will be and should be judged based on his past actions which, until today, are nothing but glorious and virtuous.

This is how aam fata-chappal kisaan of india, clerk of India, dukaandaar of India sees BRD. and this is how Janta-Janaardan will judge him.

Criticism per se was never unwelcoming. What was annoying was Buddhi behind it. Hence such response.

[harbans]

You forgot the most egregious issue that bugs me and others. No matter what BR's demands are, was unleashing police brutality on him and his supporters the right thing to do?

Cramji, i have hardly 5 posts on this thread. And i have elucidated the matter in 2 points. 1. Macro: Success. 2. Micro: Controversial, inviting flak.

And i added that after the treatment that BRD and followers got, point 3 is more critical that: this issue that will probably dominate the debate in the future.

Bhavin and Krisna ji thanks for your perspectives, appreciate that. Just a few points:

Fast to death is a prerogative of the individual. one person thinks it is a reasonable right to do.


Actually it is not. Suicide is against the law. So is blackmail.

My first point was not a question, it was a note. An observation.

[harbans]

Atri ji, that's an excellent post. Sure i agree we all have limitations. But if you'll allow me a very minor nitpik:

Baba is not economist. Baba is not supposed to be economist. But he commands trust of many who are reputed economists. People like Vishwabandhu Gupta, Rajiv Dixit and many others are not stupid jerks. They know what they are talking about.

Ashok Mitra was the doyen of left socialist economics, doctorate to boot. China, Nazi Germany, USSR boasted some really great minds in economics. But they went all bust (we expect the same of China too really soon). All failed empires had some of the best educated people working for them.

Criticism per se was never unwelcoming. What was annoying was Buddhi behind it. Hence such response.


Lets give that statement too some time to mature on this thread.

But otherwise an excellent post really and am in agreement with your views.

[VikramS]

harbansji:

The problem with somnath is that he often cites half-truths and outright lies to back his case (what ever it is). Further his case is primarily to dismiss what BR is saying.

I very much doubt that many disagree that the 10 points being debated are essentially principles or goals. To get to a legally and constitutionally acceptable point, considerable amount of work will have to be done both from the legislative perspective and executive perspective.

However, nothing in those 10 points is something which any nationalists will call undesirable or unenforceable. Within the US all these issues are tackled often at Federal levels. You will be surprised that many of the most famous criminals go to jail on charges of mail fraud, wire-fraud and other very innocuous sounding charges. Al Capone the famous prohibition era gangster was sent to jail not on murder or racketeering charges but for tax evasion!!

Instead of doing a point by point belittling of RD's list of 10, he could have also spent some time refining them so that can be discussed in the context of the legal framework. But then the bhadralok will lose the high moral ground. How dare a Yadav from the Jatland tell them what is good for the nation, heh? Where will civil society go?

[Atri]

Ashok Mitra was the doyen of left socialist economics, doctorate to boot. China, Nazi Germany, USSR boasted some really great minds in economics. But they went all bust (we expect the same of China too really soon). All failed empires had some of the best educated people working for them.

That was not the point, Harbans ji. I think you understand what I was trying to say, but just for the sake of record let me clarify any ways..

The allegation was that whatever BRD is doing is all drama and showbaazi and he has no concrete solutions, that he can make no point, that none of his suggestions can be taken and discussed on table because its all so illogical and stupid.

take example of issue of nationalizing bad accounts in phoren banks. May be there are few geopolitical, administrative, technical, legal, problems involved in passing the ordinance which BRD is demanding. But the ones who are demanding passage of such ordinance have reasons and arguments supporting its necessity and feasibility. The other side has to prove that the action is either not necessary OR not feasible OR both with counter arguments. This was not given at all. Instead attack on education, wealth, out-of-context statements, colour of clothes worn, opinions on homosexuality, presence of particular people on dias and what not.

[harbans]

Vikram S ji, i think you are getting Somnath wrong here. BRs comments on homosexuality and AIDS cure are not off the mark. When one is in such a postion and makes definitive statements to whomsoever, it does matter.

I very much doubt that many disagree that the 10 points being debated are essentially principles or goals.

Sure but each and every one of them requires transparent debate amongst the citizens of this country. Not a 50k people, sitting and demanding it be done at the point of 'fast unto death'. These issues you will understand are not immediately doable or obvious. To do so requires a party fighting on an electoral plank detailing these points. That's why i earlier remarked i like the macro perspective of creating mass awareness against corruption. BR has been a leader there. Specifics are not his forte, not in this matter. Give them and one invites a lot of flak or criticism/ viewpoints etc.

Added later: Atri Ji, your last post will address later: Gimme a break..am in India and you guys in US. Too late here. Gotta catch some rest. Been a late late night really. Will continue the discussion. Rgds.

[ramana]

Why are you guys discussing somnath? Look at the thread title? Is it germane to that?

Thanks, ramana

[rajanb]

Sounds like an "Anti-corruption Mêlée" thread. In spite of its name being "Anna Hazare and the Lokpal Bill" thread.

Maybe we should have a separate BRD thread? Admin, please?

[somnath]

2) Atri posted detailed list of BRD. In fact somnath should have done that considering his outbursts on BRD. He is a person who tends to get facts from reputable sources compared to other brfites or so he claims. By not doing the basic homework/high standards he set himself as in many other posts in other dhaagas - he wore soosai vests

I missed your earlier post - sorry for that...

But really, I am not claiming anything - if any of the sources referenced have an issue, point them out! About the issue of BR's "this" - I really did not find any place where all his "demands" were encapsulated in one shot - there were glimpses in the media of various things, but nothing in "quoted black and white"..Which is why I asked whether people here had them - surprising it took 10 pages of discussions to get that..

Now, substantively, what "base document" (from your previous post addressed to me) do you expect me to give on the 10 proposals?

On the issue of what constitutes black money stashed away offshore, and claims thereof? Do you want to get data on how absurd the estimates of 1.5 trillion dollars of black money are (as a perspective, that is something like a full 20% of the total offshore pvt banking market - ergo, 20% of the entire offshore pvt bank industry is sustained by Indian slush money!)...Or do you want references to refute claims that US/Europe deficits are financed by Indian slush money? I can do that, but that would only turn the discussion way OT...

Or on the issue of nationalising" offshore bank accounts/asstes "easily"? Interestingly KLNMurthy brought out the analogy of the Jewish struggle to reclaim Nazi assets...Its interesting because while that is being cited as an example of how it "can be done", while it is precisely an example of how fuzzy, non black-and-white the issues are, and how damned difficult it is to execute...Here was a case of the best connected (politically and financially) community in the world, looking to reclaim assets of clearly identified individuals, victims of the best documented crime against humanity, kept in reasonably well identified banks..the amounts? Well, in the low tens of billions at best, a few hundred millions at worst...And backed by some of the most influential banking doyens of the world, many of whom are Jewish as well as a broad majority of the US political class...They spent upwards of 50 years, many millions of dollars, umpteen court cases, before a circumscribed reclamation was possible - dont think the total amount exceeded a few billion dollars...Here, we dont know who is "corrupt", we dont know which bank accounts/assets therefore are there, we dont know how much money is there, and above all, international and natioanl regulations make it darn difficult to peremptorily get such info en masse...Which is why I quoted that LGT Bank example (it was a lucky break for th German tax authorities, nothing "systemic" about it) - when it broke they said Indians have many billions, hundreds in fact, there...As it turns out now, its 40 crores...So the GOI is supposed to natioanlise purported "slush" assets that is doesnt know of, belonging to people who are unidentified, kept in places that are way beyond India's jurisdiction - and it is supposed to be "easy to execute without any foreign policy implicaitons"! What base dacument do you want to see in order to fathom the absurdity of such simplistic naivete? FATF discussion papers, or Client confidentialty regs in Switzerland? Again, I can sure dig up some of that, but will make the discussion OT...

One can go on and on on each of those suggestions...But no point - too much diorrhea

The main thrust is this, and I have said this many times...The so-called civil society needs to deepen engagement with the polity, both politics and otherwise..But anyone looking to carry out horizontal integration of one's skills/credibility in another area needs to be asked the same questions as practitioners of the latter...BR has used his immense popularity as a yoga guru to create a quasi-political platform...He hasnt given any new "message", he has simply sought to ride the bandwagon of an existing wave of revulsion against corruption...And given the extreme shallowness of thought in his proposals, I at least conclude that the intention is not to bring about any specific change, but create a broader political platform...I have no problem with that, but then I would ubject the good Baba to the same questions that I would subject other politicians to...Especially as this tamasha over a person has meant that the govt has been let off the hook on the substantive issues on policy dithering - including the most important policy interventions required to tackle corruption...

And yes, the Arvind K initiative on Jan Lokpal Bill too had its own share of issues..I myself was disappointed with the first draft...Especially on the attitude of "we know best" in the draft...But then, there is at least something substantive being tried to move forward there, transparently so (the draft was modified a few times after being published), not secret parleys with ministers in 5 star hotels..with assurances/statements given and retracted by the minute, in typical politician style...My questions to Arvind K would be on the minutiae of his proposals, because there is one, as it would be to any "civil lobbyist"...My questions to BR are on his motives and essential policy robustness (or the lack of it) of his message, as they would be to any politician...

Anyway, I think one has said what one had to...There is zero benefit to me in "lying" etc (why does it have to be personal?).....Finally, its a POV - obviously a lot of people here think of BR (and elsewhere) as a potential messiah..I dont see him to be anyting more than a wannabe politician, a typical vacuous one at that...

[brihaspati]

harbans wrote
Third: The demands are controversial to some extent. If not, they do involve legal, political and Economic study to fulfill. Not a fast to death.

I am not sure you really want to go into this angle. There has been a lot spoken about Gandhiji on this forum and so far I kept silent because the "conditional" and "opportunistic" use of Gandhiji was amusing to watch to a certain extent. But after what you have said now, I cannot resist the temptation of quoting the man himself on fasting:

VOL. 61: 27 APRIL, 1933- 7 OCTOBER, 1933 p 377
I may say that I began my experiments in fasting on any large scale as an instrument of reform in 1913.1 I had fasted often enough before, but not in the manner of 1913. My definite opinion is that the general result of my numerous fasts was without doubt beneficial. They invariably quickened the conscience of the people interested in and sought to be influenced by those fasts. I am not aware of any injustice having been perpetrated through those fasts. If Bengal proves injustice, it will be an exception. In no case was there any idea of exercising coercion on anyone. Indeed, I think that the word coercion would be a misnomer for the influence that was exerted by the fasts under criticism. Coercion means some harmful force used against a person who is expected to do something desired by the user of the force. In the fasts in question, the force used was against myself. Surely, force of self-suffering cannot be put in the same category as the force of suffering caused to the party sought to be influenced. If I fast in order to awaken the conscience of an erring friend whose error is beyond question, I am not coercing him in the ordinary sense of the word.

The writer of the notes says that there can be fasts that have no “coercive effect”, but if the expression ‘coercive effect’ can be lawfully used for my fasts, then in that sense, all fasts can be proved to have that effect to a greater or less extent.
[...]
Like all human institutions, fasting can be both legitimately and illegitimately used. But as a great weapon in the armoury of satyagraha, it cannot be given up because of its possible abuse. Satyagraha has been designed as an effective substitute for violence. This use is in its infancy and, therefore, not yet perfected. But as the author of modern satyagraha I cannot give up any of its manifold uses without forfeiting my claim to handle it in the spirit of a humble seeker.
Harijan, 9-9-1933

The criticism of "fasting unto death" was faced by him from no less than another oft-quoted person on this forum [only one of whose "edited" poems is oft quoted though!]

558. LETTER TO C. F. ANDREWS
Unrevised SATYAGRAHA ASHRAM, WARDHA, October 3, 1933
I corrected your use of the expression ‘fast unto death’, but I see that you have returned to it again. I told you that hitherto all my fasts have been conditional; even the last one1 was conditional. I can well understand anybody being repelled by an unconditional fast unto death, though I have told you that in my scheme of life even an unconditional fast, under very extraordinary circumstances, has a place, but I don’t need to argue out that extreme position. All I want to say is that in your discussion with Gurudev you should take care to avoid arguments around a ‘fast unto death’, taking the expression literally. Therefore, the best thing would be to centre your discussion around all my fasts which Gurudev has not been able to reconcile himself to, as perhaps the last one, and there too it would be one thing to say that the facts hitherto known will not justify the fast, and another thing to say that under no circumstances could a fast over the Harijan issue, such as I raised at Yeravda, be justified.

Here the man boldly faces perhaps sly potshots taken at him about the possible perception that the "fasting" was "show" and "stage managed" by an "army of doctors":

The second question that has puzzled many is whether a fast in which an army of doctors watch and guide the fasting person, as they undoubtedly and with extraordinary care and attention watched and guided me, when he is coddled in various other ways as I was, could be described as a fast in answer to the call of the Inner Voice. Put thus, the objection seems valid. It would undoubtedly have been more in keeping with the high claim made for the fast, if it had been unattended with all the extraordinary, external aids that it was my good fortune or misfortune to receive.

But I do not repent of having gratefully accepted the generous help that kind friends extended to me. I was battling against death. I accepted all the help that came to me as godsend, when it did not in any way affect my vow.

[Collected works, p 220]

Finally, well,

53. LETTER TO RADHA GANDHI2
Between 1-4 at Night, May 2, 1933
None of you should get upset by the news about my fast. The strength of the Ashram lies in it and it protects dharma. Fasting is an essential feature of Hinduism.

Fifth: INC, Sonia, MMS, Digvijay make me sad at how they denigrate Hinduism.

Sixth: I have absolutely no doubt that Somnath ji wants not to denigrate Hinduism. Not one iota of doubt on that.

Why are you sad? What exactly have they done or said that "denigrates" "Hinduism"? In your sixth point you mention your strong faith that "Hinduism" is not intended to be denigrated. Fine that is your personal belief. But it is still a matter of your faith. On what basis do you distinguish between the "fifth" and the "sixth"? Based on statement or lack of them? Have you had a check based on posts on the forum? Then again it might depend on what is defined to be "Hinduism" by the persons(s) relevant. Can you please clarify that definition - because someone may simply define hi/her "Hinduism" conveniently and say that he is denigrating rightfully "non-Hinduism".

Seventh: Baba Ramdev is a simple person with really good intentions. We all can learn a lot from him, but he is NOT Swami Vivekananda or Aurobindo, Let's be very clear about that.

Is that really relevant? Who needs him to be Aurobindo or Swami Vivekananda and why?

Eigth: We all are feel frustrated about corruption. But do you sincerely think that BR or AH can eliminate it? I don't, not on the specifics laid out.

Well corruption happened under MMS/Sonia-jis NAC/Digvijay Singh/Manish Tewari/Pranav Mukerjee/ and a lot of others. Do you have then any reason to sincerely think that they can eliminate corruption? On the specific they laid out? [well they don't really need to isnt it, because they never really laid it out!]

Ninth: The most positive ideas and ways on eliminating corruption can only be suggested by people who understand deeply the economics and legal issues involved. Somnath ji is one of them. Read every line what he posts.

But you are also the poster who writes :

Ashok Mitra was the doyen of left socialist economics, doctorate to boot. China, Nazi Germany, USSR boasted some really great minds in economics. But they went all bust (we expect the same of China too really soon). All failed empires had some of the best educated people working for them.

Now what do you think of people who inspite of all their "expertise" worked for such "empires"? Why do you think they all "failed"? No possible role of ideological and political dogmatic "corruption" that twists these "all understanding" "expert" brains around in knots in justifying the unjustifiable? Or an even greater underlying malignancy that thrives and preys on the "commons"?

[Sushupti]

Taking cue from Baba Ramdev, Sonia Gandhi decides to make public financials of Rajiv Gandhi Foundation.

http://www.rgfindia.com/financials.htm

[Pranay]

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?724543

BJP today sought to distance itself from yoga guru Baba Ramdev's plan to set up a force as part of his anti-corruption crusade, saying the party never propagates violence.

"We will not support anything like that as the party never propagates violence," BJP national spokesperson Prakash Javadekar said at a meet-the-press programme here.

He said BJP would extend moral support to anybody who will come forward to fight corruption and rejected Home Minister P Chidrabaram's charge that civil rights activist Anna Hazare and Ramdev were masks of RSS.

Javedkar said the Congress was trying to frustrate anti-graft movement in the country by targeting Hazare and Ramdev.

Criticising the Home Minister for attacking RSS on Ramdev issue, Javadekar said RSS was not a banned organisation and challenged the government to take action against it.

"Let the government ban it (RSS) and face the music. The movement had been banned twice earlier. But it has gained strength as the largest ever school of patriotism in the country," he said.

Condemning the action on anti-corruption protesters at Ram Lila Maidan on June 5, Javadekar demanded a Supreme Court monitored probe into the police action to unearth the truth.

He said the party also wanted Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi to apologise to the nation for the police action during Ramdev's fast.

[Pranay]

http://outlookindia.com/article.aspx?277041

Open Letter
Some Questions For The Home Minister
Sir, why do you suddenly seem to be the greatest opponent of the Jan Lokpal bill?
A.K. Agrawal

Dear Shri Chidambaram,

Your interview on Doordarshan to justify the brutal crackdown at Ramlila maidan —timed to perfection with Anna's fast at Rajghat —raised more questions than it answered. Sir, why do you suddenly seem to be the greatest opponent of the Jan Lokpal bill?

Why is it that you, more than anyone else in the government, appear so desperate as to have allowed attacking peaceful fasting people in the dead of the night?

Is it because, as is being widely suggested and perceived, you are worried that the Jan Lokpal would affect your political career?

There have been allegations that the finance ministry, under your watch, is responsible for allowing not only the generation of the largest amount of black money, but also guilty of the fact that it was generated through corruption.

The loss to the exchequer during your tenure, as you are undoubtedly aware, has been tentatively pegged at over rupees two lakh crores divided equally between the 2G scam and the iron ore scam. Sir, is it for this reason that you are being perceived as the greatest opponent of Jan Lokpal?

Prima facie, there seems to be a huge conflict of interest in your continuation on the Lokpal panel and the eradication of corruption through an independent Lokpal as envisaged in the Jan Lokpal bil as would be clear from some of the following questions that keep surfacing:

[Raghavendra]

Taking cue from Baba Ramdev, Sonia Gandhi decides to make public financials of Rajiv Gandhi Foundation.

http://www.rgfindia.com/financials.htm

This section is under construction

hope sonia's boyfriends ottavio quattrocchi and ron watts and their details are mentioned too

[Raghavendra]

These issues you will understand are not immediately doable or obvious. To do so requires a party fighting on an electoral plank detailing these points.

Indian constitution never had secularism in it, but overnight it was inserted without any debate by a party or opinion of public being considered, should it be removed?

Is it time to repeal it?

[Dhiman]

First: What is that 'this' that they demand?.

Even if you assume that they are not demanding anything, there is nothing wrong with that. What is important here is their right to protest peacefully without being violently attacked by a corrupt government.

Third: The demands are controversial to some extent. If not, they do involve legal, political and Economic study to fulfill. Not a fast to death.

This government needs pressure to act and Ramdev is certainly doing a good job of providing that pressure. As far as legal, political, and economic studies are concerned they sell for a dime a dozen, but not people like Ramdev.

Let Ramdev do his job, and I garuntee you there will be enough legal, political, and economic studies to keep multiple generations of academics, think tangs, and paid government analysts occupied.

Stop Ramdev from doing his job, and rest assured the political vacuum that he is filling right now will be filled with lot worse people that we can imagine.

Fourth: I have a lot of respect for BR. He is extremely good in what he does. A topper and class A product in that class. If he was in the Army he'd be a General or more.

Yes, with or without his current methodology, Ramdev's achievements are extra-ordinary by any standard. Anyone who fails to see this is obviously very highly biased for "mysterious" unstated reasons.

Eigth: We all are feel frustrated about corruption. But do you sincerely think that BR or AH can eliminate it? I don't, not on the specifics laid out.

No, but they can and are doing a good job of helping to get there in their own unique ways.

Ninth: The most positive ideas and ways on eliminating corruption can only be suggested by people who understand deeply the economics and legal issues involved. Somnath ji is one of them. Read every line what he posts.

Ya, we all read these economic theories. Which one justifies corruption in high places? Really I would like to know which economic theory besides "greed", "gross neglect of duty", and "mismanagement" played its role in Kani, et. al. getting a 200 crore bribe, etc while farmers in the state were committing sucide over not being able to replay Rs. 100,000 or even lesser loans.

Again, let Ramdev do his job and I assure you there will be guaranteed employment for generations and generations of economists, legal analysts, and whatever other "analysts" you can think of.

[sugriva]

Instead of doing a point by point belittling of RD's list of 10, he could have also spent some time refining them so that can be discussed in the context of the legal framework. But then the bhadralok will lose the high moral ground. How dare a Yadav from the Jatland tell them what is good for the nation, heh? Where will civil society go?

You truly are a devotee of Baba Ramdev. Want all the gain but no pain. The bhadralok is to be derided but is also expected to provide the brains to do the job Why should the onus of improving RD's proposals be on Somnath. RD's proposals are what they are, a politician's manifesto and they have been dealt with the way other politician's manifestos are dealt with. If you are really serious about RD's proposals why don't you go ahead and do the work. You have read Somnath's critique of the same and now have a good starting point. Now lets see what the non-bhadralok can come up with.

[ramana]

Listening to Ramdev

Swami Ramdev may have jumped off the podium but is still news. Many of my friends see him as a threat to democracy arguing he is harassing an elected government. They see him as de-politizing the country with quack medicines for real problems. Others with a more conspiratorial view read him as a Rasputin, less sinister because he has shades of a clown, a village idiot. They are worried about his rustic populism which makes a hash of our more urbane secular categories. Others more liberal see him as comic book stuff. Crudely put, it is like watching a Bhojpuri movie with English subtitles. It will appear boisterous and crude.

By focusing too much on the man, we lose the sociology behind him. To say he is a Yadav, a Kisan's son, A Yogi from Haryana is not saying enough. This is a sociology of convenience. We think we can dispense with a man once we created a grid of social science terms. To the western eye, he is another OBC figure demanding to be heard. Ignore his egotism, his colossal sense that the world moves around his Copernican self. Ask not what did he say but how did people around him construct the movement? To fight him, you have to understand him.

It is an irony that in discussing corruption, we don't notice the corruption of categories. The languages spoken are different and the same words have different resonances. The Congress in arguing with him appears like a bunch of lawyers engaging with a prophet. Journalists approach him with equal consternation. They see his drama as blackmail, a threat to a constitutionally elected government. Echoing the tacit codes of democracy, electoralism, representation, Ramdev appears like a wave of bad behaviour contemptuous of democratic politics. For the journalist, a representative is elected by the people, therefore he represents them. Ramdev claims he belongs to the people, the reporters see him as illegitimate; he appeals to a primordiality, an organicity beyond representation.

To say that Ramdev is fighting corruption is incomplete. More important he is fighting corruption in idioms and metaphors the urban intellectual does not understand. To hyphenate him to VHP or RSS is not enough. Both use energies from similar cultural stream but the BJP language has become trite as it moved from samaj to rashtra, from community to nation.

Ramdev invokes the lived idea of the village or the lived in experience of the village. He invites a people who believe in the message and the discipline of the guru. His language evokes a world English is too provincial to understand. He talks of sewa which cannot be reduced to social service or social work, or of swasthya which goes beyond allopathic definitions of health. For Ramdev excess food and multinationals can both be corrupting. He is fighting a battle against corruption where the moral, the economic, the spiritual and the material flow into each other. It is a summons from a different discourse, the language of satsangs and not NGOs. The heroes it invokes are Bhagat Singh, Subhash Bose, Rana Pratap, Veer Savarkar those who belong to folklore and legend more than history, people who have been often called the also-rans of NCERT history text books.

There is a lot that is impressive. The arrangements at Ramlila Maidan reminds us of Gandhi's statement about what can the British teach us about managing crowds when we organize the Kumbh Mela. Its sheer demography would boggle the British mind. Cultural groups and religious cults arrange melas and protests using community skills which modern management does not understand. To list it logistically in terms of fans arranged, water coolers available misses the point. The discipline and power of this voluntarism stems from sewa not some NGO pamphlet. The presence of swamis shows that saffron does not belong to the right, that saffron has a dignity, a spirituality, a vocation that goes beyond the communalist appropriation of saffron. Our secular liberals reach for the gun when religion is mentioned without realizing the violence they do to a people who think comfortably in religious categories. Calling all this Bharat, only blackboxes the world cooked up by these categories.

Think of two other facts. We talk of participation as an empowering word but we are contemptuous of crowds who participate in protests. Many people at the rally were hinting at a simple and poignant truth. They said we want to participate but we want to participate in categories we are comfortable with. For that if we have to invoke Vivekanand and Rana Pratap, so be it. We want to talk our language. These people are saying it does not need global agencies like Transparency International to tell them what corruption is about. The old woman from a little town feels important, feels relevant sitting quietly but not insignificantly in the crowd. Our ideas of democracy have become too arrogant to notice the people.

Let us notice another thing. They are creating history by invoking myth. They are defying history to create a different notion of independence, not as an event but as a process. They juxtapose 1857, 1947 and 2011 into a sequence. It invokes a different idea of independence where what we seek is an independence from western categories, where civilization and community are expressing a tiredness with the electoral hegemony of parliaments. As Swami Agnivesh <??>put it, sometimes people have to have priority over parliaments, if people are to be ultimate source of power in democracies.

A famous Indian scientist once sat listening to a recitation of a similar event. At the end of it the man reciting it asked the scientist, 'What do you think?' The scientist answered 'It depends on who is telling the story and whose story it is.' We cannot capture the Ramdev phenomenon in media idioms. Words like traditional, fundamental, saffron, communal blur the immediacy of what is happening. There is a pain, a quiet agony which he has sensed. We have to listen to before we begin to participate or quarrel with them. This much we owe to ourselves as Indians.

Shiv Visvanathan is a Social Science nomad.

At least the guy is honest.