Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

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Singha
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Singha »

most of the border is fenced and heavily watched. the deserts and swamps are inhospitable and offer no continguous community to melt into. the sea is watched closely, our CG is one of the biggest around, every month some new ship or other is inducted into CG.

that being said, young men without families could still sneak in via nepal or BD or over the IB/LOC and using 'contacts' and 'relatives' in major cities, melt away into the woodwork.

but large scale refugee type migration is not possible unless a major event took place in TSP, govt ran away into bush and food riots and civil war started...with GOI relenting to setup refugee camps and let them in. we should make the US/EU pay for the refugee camps and make the pakis clean their own tents and toilets though rather than indulge any sense of entitlement. the US/EU/Canada/Aus should be encouraged as people with surplus cash and land to take up as many of these refugees as they can just like bosnian or kosovo war refugees were given papers and taken in. :mrgreen:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by A_Gupta »

Sebastian Rotella @ProPublica.org
http://www.propublica.org/article/chica ... -and-didnt

Chicago Terrorism Trial: What We Learned, and Didn’t, About Pakistan’s Terror Connections
At the same time, the trial left enduring mysteries.

It did not answer questions about whether Sajid Mir, a Lashkar mastermind caught on tape directing the slaughter in Mumbai by phone, was once a Pakistani military officer. It did not explore the extent to which ISI chiefs beyond Headley's handler, known only as Major Iqbal, were aware of the Mumbai plot, which ultimately killed 166 people. Headley testified that he believed top ISI leadership was not aware, but he also said he thought Iqbal's commanding officer and his unit of the spy agency knew about the operation.

Finally, prosecutors managed to skirt two delicate and interconnected issues that the U.S. government refuses to discuss: Headley's role as a U.S. informant [5] and the failure of the FBI to stop his terrorist activity despite at least six warnings [6] during seven years. Headley revealed that he was simultaneously an extremist and an informant for the Drug Enforcement Administration for at least two years and that he gathered counterterror intelligence as well as doing anti-drug work.

Headley testified that he stopped working for the DEA in September 2002, but that did not change contradictions and gaps in the U.S. government's official version. The DEA has stated that he was deactivated in early 2002, while other agencies have said he remained an informant until as late as 2005.

The lack of clarity reinforces suspicions that the U.S. government knew more about Headley than it has revealed and that his role as an informant shielded him from more aggressive scrutiny in the years before his arrest in October 2009.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Altair »

Singha wrote: but large scale refugee type migration is not possible unless a major event took place in TSP, govt ran away into bush and food riots and civil war started...with GOI relenting to setup refugee camps and let them in. we should make the US/EU pay for the refugee camps and make the pakis clean their own tents and toilets though rather than indulge any sense of entitlement. the US/EU/Canada/Aus should be encouraged as people with surplus cash and land to take up as many of these refugees as they can just like bosnian or kosovo war refugees were given papers and taken in. :mrgreen:
I think darka butt and her pseudo secularist brigade would go into such tents and clean the toilets and show it on TV. However despicable it may be I would have a sadistic pleasure if she actually cleans some paki toilets. She deserves nothing less.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by A_Gupta »

TFT
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/10062011/page2.shtml
Saleem Shahzad’s book Inside Al Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11 (Pluto Press 2011) has been proscribed.

The banned book, fingering Al Qaeda’s Ilyas Kashmiri as the mastermind behind the Mumbai attack, says: ‘Ilyas Kashmiri then handed over the plan to a very able former army major Haroon Ashik, who was also a former Lashkar-e-Tayba (LeT) commander who was still very close with the LeT chiefs Zakiur Rahman Lakhvi and Abu Hamza. Haroon knew about a plan by Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months with the official policy to drop it as it was to have been a low-profile routine proxy operation in India through LeT’.
Major-General (r) Amir Faisal Alavi of the SSG was killed in Islamabad on 19 November 2008 by Major (r) Haroon Ashiq on orders from Ilyas Kashmiri. Writing in The Sunday Times (London: 14 Dec 2008) Carey Schofield stated: ‘The brother-in-law of VS Naipaul, the British novelist and Nobel laureate, was murdered last month after threatening to expose Pakistani army generals who had made deals with Taliban militants. Major General Faisal Alavi, a former head of Pakistan’s special forces, whose sister Nadira is Lady Naipaul, named two generals in a letter to the head of the army. He warned that he would “furnish all relevant proof”. Aware that he was risking his life, he gave a copy to me and asked me to publish it if he was killed. Soon afterwards he told me that he had received no reply: “It hasn’t worked,” he said. “They’ll shoot me.” That is what Saleem Shahzad said too.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by A_Gupta »

Continuing Jihadi collection [TFT nuggets]
Jaish collecting ‘ushr’

Reported in the illicit publication with an ABC Certificate Al Qalam outlawed terrorist organisation Jaish Muhammad was collecting ushr in South Punjab under the auspices of Al Rehmat Trust also said to be banned. The newspaper informed that ‘ushr’ – a tax on farms legally only collectible by the state - was being collected for past ‘many years’ and its campaign was at its peak in April.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by disha »

Altair wrote:I think darka butt and her pseudo secularist brigade would go into such tents and clean the toilets and show it on TV. However despicable it may be I would have a sadistic pleasure if she actually cleans some paki toilets. She deserves nothing less.
That is less. A far more satisfying situation will be when those sex starved crazy pounce upon darkhas and beestas and arundottys - en masse! But even if that is a schaudenfraude situation, better would be bakis end up in saudi barbaria rather than here. Saudi barbaria is the promised land for them.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

Theo_Fidel wrote:I've said this before.

The real danger is when our per capita income reaches a level 4-5 time above that of TSP. The pull to relocate will be almost irresistible. Already their 'entertainers' consider India as their primary territory. Not for nothing their cricketers have heartburn over the IPL ban.

We have a long porous border. IMO we can not keep them out indefinitely.
+1
These are words of wisdom.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

Najam Sethi was making fun of exactly this tendency of the Pakistani Army:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoyxFazZARQ#t=4m34s
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Prem »

shiv wrote:
Theo_Fidel wrote:I've said this before.
The real danger is when our per capita income reaches a level 4-5 time above that of TSP. The pull to relocate will be almost irresistible. Already their 'entertainers' consider India as their primary territory. Not for nothing their cricketers have heartburn over the IPL ban.We have a long porous border. IMO we can not keep them out indefinitely.
+1
These are words of wisdom.
Dont mean to go on and on like Poak but we all agree that Rich India is a good solution to many of the problems imposed on Indic by Congasurs ,Poaksurs and Gorasurs together. New generation of indians gonna love undoing so many things which we longs to do now.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by sanjeevpunj »

With all people being equally rich,in India,things would be perfect! The action should come voluntarily from the super rich, to shed their weight,share wealth,stop building eyesores like the one in Mumbai called Antilla.If they do not share it maybe that someday Antilla would be ant-hill.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Sri »

I saw the footage just now. And I wish wouldn't have. I am sick to my guts. If this was Syria or Libia, what would have been the response?

Guys!!! Blessed are we that we were born here in Mother India. Blessed are our forefathers who have given us the history the intellectual bed rock that even in the worst of times, our nation always looks ahead with confidence and hope.

My Heart today goes out to the Mango Abdul, who has been cheated out of the heritage of Mother India. Alas, if not for some selfish ba$**ds, things for him would have been different, soooo different....
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:most of the border is fenced and heavily watched. the deserts and swamps are inhospitable and offer no continguous community to melt into. the sea is watched closely, our CG is one of the biggest around, every month some new ship or other is inducted into CG.

that being said, young men without families could still sneak in via nepal or BD or over the IB/LOC and using 'contacts' and 'relatives' in major cities, melt away into the woodwork.

but large scale refugee type migration is not possible unless a major event took place in TSP, govt ran away into bush and food riots and civil war started...with GOI relenting to setup refugee camps and let them in. we should make the US/EU pay for the refugee camps and make the pakis clean their own tents and toilets though rather than indulge any sense of entitlement. the US/EU/Canada/Aus should be encouraged as people with surplus cash and land to take up as many of these refugees as they can just like bosnian or kosovo war refugees were given papers and taken in. :mrgreen:

That's not how it will work. Pakistan will go further and further and further down until there is civil war in one area with refugees in another area. Those refugees will get hit by a cyclone or earthquake and humanitarian considerations will kick in. That is invariably how "sealed" borders are opened. That is the time when we have to be careful

In 1971 - Bangladesh was first hit by a cyclone followed by a genocide.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

Gentle Rakshaks,

Both India and the entity called pakistan are undergoing points of inflexion. Both will be subject to intense pressures, for very different reasons.

The coming decade will bear witness to India being subjected to intense pressure from powers that have the upper hand in the world today. While the rise of India is irreversible, they will try their best to "manage" the rise to suit their objectives and "manage" India. How we as a nation cope with this is upto us alone. It has to start with us and there will have to be an unshackling of the Indian mind.

The artificial entity (cannot call this a country anymore) on the other hand, will go through an accelerated descent into chaos. No matter what the benefactors of this entity try or do, that descent is inevitable. Many here have noted that there is a crossing point viz a viz India. When Indian growth kicks in and moves the country way beyond Pakistan and its corresponding descent picks up speed way beyond redemption. It is true.

What is not so evident yet is that the change in power equation between the benefactors of this entity and India that this will herald. The dissolution of this entity cannot be handled without India. Not many have realized this in these benefactor states. They suffer from two fundamental illusions:

1. The state of pakistan can be kept alive, just short of total collapse and made to serve useful purpose, that includes being a check and impediment to the rise of India.

2. That the state of pakistan is only directed against India and does not pose any threat for them.

Their policies and actions based on these will come to roost when the descent into chaos happens fully. They cannot handle that on their own and neither can they just abandon and leave. A resurgent and confident India will have to be approached by these very powers.

India will have to be ready for that eventuality and must have in place, plans for the displaced people of pakistan. It will have to be India that acts and creates safe havens inside the territory currently controlled by this entity and not in India proper. It has to be India that will have to lead the final arrangements of post Pakistan scenario.

The GOI will have to prepare for this eventuality in the next decade or so. It calls for clarity of thought and unity in purpose. It requires adequate preparation for the Indian state and the people. Whether we have that right now or we following a policy of drift is a matter of debate not germane to this thread.

One thing is sure though. It is not going to be easy to integrate the resulting states or its people with India or Indians. That again is something that has to happen through at least a couple of generations. The people who inhabit this entity have to first unlearn the false pretensions and false identity that they have lived through all their lives and re-discover their true identity and heritage. It becomes more complicated when that situation is also prevalent in India. India and Indians are yet to get rid of the shackles in their minds too.

Until this re-discovery happens, it is best that the population of the lands controlled by this entity are kept at arms distance and away from the Indian Republic. They have to be kept engaged by us but not integrated until the change happens. For a civilization that knows the value of time it is not unnatural to wait patiently.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by ramana »

R^2,Have you pondered on if TSP has performed any redeeming act in last ten years even if inadvertently?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

ramana,

NO. It is not possible also. From the time of the Pakistan Resolution till now, it has been a Vishkanya. It has only one purpose and that is to destroy India. You do know how the Vishkanya that was sent to kill Emperor Chandragupta was handled by Chanakya. This artificial entity called Pakistan was created for only one purpose. Along with Jinnah and the Muslim League, there were other benefactors who played midwife in this creation and ensured growth of this vile entity.

There will be a time that those who have sowed and nurtured this poison tree will have to eat the fruits that it produces. India will be redeemed that day. Hope we are ready when it happens.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by abhijitm »

[url=XXXhttp://www.dawn.com/2011/06/11/nawaz-asks-army ... ndset.html]nawaz asks army to change mindset[/url]
There is no sacred cow in the country and none should try to become a sacred cow as (we) won’t allow such an attempt
blasphemy !!! nawaz WUQ.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by abhik »

Regarding the issue selectively letting Packi women in, one must also bring in the subject of human trafficking for the flesh trade. As I understand a lot of the "demand" in India is met from Bangladesh and Nepal. One wonders how long it will be before Packistan joins in.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

Let me say what will be good for Pakistan. What will make Pakistan succeed and give it new life?

Imagine a day when Indian Muslims rise up and start battling Hindus. Or even better than that - Hindus should start mercilessly massacring Muslims (and other people whom Pakistan calls minorities) BBC, CNN and the usual culprits will be showing Indian mosques burning like Islamabad Marriott of PNS Mehran.

The will be proof that Pakistan is necessary. Proof that Pakistan was justified. As long as Muslims live peacefully in India the idea of Pakistan is fckued. Indian Muslims must suffer for Pakistan to succeed. India must be a threat to Muslims for Pakistan's success.

Gradually Pakistan is failing. The life is ebbing out of Pakistaniyat because Indians are not doing what they are supposed to do. This is India's failure. Not Pakistan's.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by VikramS »

Folks:

I have learnt a lot in the past few weeks about the Blunt project/Anatol Lievin etc. You also see the steadfast support for the dying TSP in the SD. That comment from uneven that undivided India would have controlled oil lanes from Central Asia and the Gulf. There is what I called a mosaic of information which when taken together can help build the big-picture.

I think the time is ripe to link this historical context, the Macaulization and deracination, the partition, the Maino/EJ era, the efforts to exploit the existing fault-lines in india & create new ones. We need a series of articles which outlines the West's agenda for India.

The BRD movement has certainly caused many to question the DMSM. People are receptive but no one is giving them the big picture. It is time to do that.

Ideally what I would want is a series of essays which lay-out the historical and link it to the modern era. They intended audience should be the average guy with a high-school/college education. It should be plain easy to understand language.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

abhik wrote:Regarding the issue selectively letting Packi women in, one must also bring in the subject of human trafficking for the flesh trade. As I understand a lot of the "demand" in India is met from Bangladesh and Nepal. One wonders how long it will be before Packistan joins in.
That is low end demand. High end demand is goris from Russia and other places. Besides Bollywood, Tollywood and Sandalwood are themselves attracting goris.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by abhijitm »

Raja Ram wrote: 1. The state of pakistan can be kept alive, just short of total collapse and made to serve useful purpose, that includes being a check and impediment to the rise of India.
RR ji, I slightly disagree on this point. The gap between us and pakis are now so wide, and growing, that it is impossible for pakis to keep either military or economic check over India. Pak has been reduced merely as an irritant in India's point of view. Like Taiwan for China. Wests will continue support for pakistan but it has no use as a tool to check India. West has bigger problem of China than India, and vice versa. Like doggy style both are literally stuck from front and behind with this paki whore. Enjoyment is over and now they can't get out.

Just my humble thoughts.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Prem »

I have to tell the story again. An old Poak wearing chinese donated clothes , eating American donated food and wearing European donated shoes was walking with his grandson along Wagha border and he pointed out to the loud music noices coming out of the big mansion across the border where Indic folks were having regular weekend party doing Balle Balle, oon aanhu annhu, oon annhu annhu. Old Poak proudly boasted to his grand son about himself and imaginary ME forefathers repeteadely looting and killing Indic folks on the other side of Wagha and destroying their moral and prosperity.
The young Poak resembling Toad as child of inbreeding loak, innocently asked , O Abbu of my Abbu , how come they are still laughing , dancing having party ,living in big lighted mansion while we are still living on Khairat? The Abbu of Abbu became Dabbu and meekly told Grandchild, Puttar , so what , they are kaffirs and we still have the Arab given HOKO. Poor youg child was prepelexed and started thinking if all we have is given by someone then WTF i am and WTF i have been doing here. Moral of the story is , Poaks are getting there where some how some one will ask the question and suddenly get Eureka enlightenment 400 % and realize WTF Happened . Child mused
Mushharrf is dark, brown and deep,
Poaks are 3.5 Bf's illegtimate Keep .
if Across the Wagha i can go,
Very own ethos i might know.
Might be able to live like desi Joe .

Suddenly Old man burst in tears,
With all his strength did he cry
Go beta go , must make a try
Too late for me, my bheja is fry.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shiv »

^^ :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

abhijitm,

Actually there is no need to disagree!

I too have mentioned that the rise of India is inevitable. Pakistan will be an impediment and irritant, though not unsurmountable for India. But in western and other benefactors calculations they do not yet see the futility of using Pakistan viz a viz India. Besides they do have other uses for this entity. For now at least.

But the fact remains, the point I mentioned as an illusion has been a fundamental aspect to policies pursued by these powers. It is an illusion that I am referring to.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Bose »

sanjeevpunj wrote:With all people being equally rich,in India,things would be perfect! The action should come voluntarily from the super rich, to shed their weight,share wealth,stop building eyesores like the one in Mumbai called Antilla.If they do not share it maybe that someday Antilla would be ant-hill.
OT but sir you do realize that equally rich actually implies equally poor as our commie brethren have ably demonstrated throughout history. Compared to the super-poor, you and me are super-rich so where does the buck stop and who needs to shed? In the end it just leads into a vicious cycle of entitlement.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by shravan »

We have the fatwa and signatures of the revered ulema in which the Shias have been declared kaafir. - Lashkar e Jhangvi http://bit.ly/kgYyOd
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by abhijitm »

guys, as July is fast approaching, soon monsoon will reach in pakistan. Lets all pray together for another episode of flood thy country away
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Raja Bose »

^^^You heartless kaffir! :evil: :evil:

PS: I was wishing more like IED mubarak the country away
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Hari Seldon »

Thanks for the multiple warnings on here, I'll avoid that shooting video.

Of course, taking of human life being tragic and all that and how I would personally condone it etc. Having put that disclaimer down, Pak going down is good news only for the civilized world. Of course, human life is precious etc, don't get me wrong and all. Still, Pak in civil war that neuters its ability to export terror to India is not a bad thing at all.

IMO, India, while talking to Pak over chai-biskoot etc needs to figure how to speed the process of poki disintegration. Am sure there're multiple way we an help (apart from sending dossiers, of course). At the very least,w e shouldn't interfere when pak commits harakiri. Will is all we need to not do that.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Rajiv Lather »

Sources: Panetta Confronts Pakistan Over Collusion With Militants - from Time.com

By OMAR WARAICH / ISLAMABAD – 47 mins ago

The troubled relations between Washington and Islamabad are undergoing further strain. CIA chief Leon Panetta traveled to the capital of Pakistan on Friday to confront that country's powerful military leadership with evidence of suspected collusion with pro-Afghan Taliban militants in the tribal areas, sources familiar with the discussion revealed to TIME.

According to the sources, the CIA chief, who will soon succeed Robert Gates as U.S. Secretary of Defense, was in meetings late on Friday with Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and his intelligence chief, Lieut. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha, the director general of the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI).

The sources said that Panetta shared with the Pakistani generals a 10-minute edited video that shows the militants evacuating two bomb factories in Waziristan. One of the factories is based in Miranshah, North Waziristan. The other factory is in South Waziristan. The militants in North Waziristan are believed to belong to groups led by Hafiz Gul Bahadur and Sirajuddin Haqqani. Both militant leaders have attacked U.S. and NATO troops across the border in Afghanistan, and enjoy non-aggression pacts with the Pakistan Army.

According to the soruces, Panetta alleged that the militants were tipped off within 24 hours of the U.S. sharing information on the facilities with the Pakistanis. When Pakistani troops later arrived at the scene of the two bomb-making facilities, used for the manufacture of improvised explosive devices, the militants were gone. The sources tell TIME that the CIA believes elements within the Pakistani security apparatus had informed the militants that they would be targeted.

The video, say the sources, was made up of satellite images. Those who have seen the video said that it was a "clear" and "explicit" demonstration of the militants leaving the two sites. Before Panetta travelled to Islamabad, the video was shown to congressional leaders, including the U.S. Senate's committees on intelligence.
Last edited by Rajiv Lather on 11 Jun 2011 12:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Nandu »

^The Onion got there first (before Panetta).

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pakist ... rat,20681/
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Rajiv Lather »

Indeed! But the last line in the TIME report is very important.
Nandu wrote:^The Onion got there first (before Panetta).

http://www.theonion.com/articles/pakist ... rat,20681/
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by SandeepA »

abhijitm wrote:guys, as July is fast approaching, soon monsoon will reach in pakistan. Lets all pray together for another episode of flood thy country away
No No dont hope for floods! Im sure the pakjabi elite is hoping too to bring the begging bowls out and also divert world attention from what pakistan truly is. IED Mubaraks are the only way out! We need to have Dilbu start his anti-jinx mantra from the cricket dhaaga for some IED Mubaraks
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by symontk »

Actually US aid money to Pak is to ensure that Paki elites dont migrate to US / UK
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Raja Ram wrote:Their policies and actions based on these will come to roost when the descent into chaos happens fully. They cannot handle that on their own and neither can they just abandon and leave. A resurgent and confident India will have to be approached by these very powers.

India will have to be ready for that eventuality and must have in place, plans for the displaced people of pakistan. It will have to be India that acts and creates safe havens inside the territory currently controlled by this entity and not in India proper. It has to be India that will have to lead the final arrangements of post Pakistan scenario.

The GOI will have to prepare for this eventuality in the next decade or so. It calls for clarity of thought and unity in purpose. It requires adequate preparation for the Indian state and the people. Whether we have that right now or we following a policy of drift is a matter of debate not germane to this thread.

One thing is sure though. It is not going to be easy to integrate the resulting states or its people with India or Indians. That again is something that has to happen through at least a couple of generations. The people who inhabit this entity have to first unlearn the false pretensions and false identity that they have lived through all their lives and re-discover their true identity and heritage. It becomes more complicated when that situation is also prevalent in India. India and Indians are yet to get rid of the shackles in their minds too.

Until this re-discovery happens, it is best that the population of the lands controlled by this entity are kept at arms distance and away from the Indian Republic. They have to be kept engaged by us but not integrated until the change happens. For a civilization that knows the value of time it is not unnatural to wait patiently.

Just my thoughts.
This can be taken care of in an international context, as I wrote sometime back.

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Gagan wrote:Pakistan is doomed. There will be an islamic revolution in that country and minorities will be killed as sport in between convulsions of killing different islamic sects. I remember MJ Akhbar's article where he says, what will India do if 1 million refugees turn up on India's borders? I am afraid that that day might arrive.
There needs to be a UNSC Resolution which declares certain enclaves within Pakistan where minorities may be in a higher concentration as UN protected safe areas, and allows other countries to deploy their militaries to secure these enclaves within Pakistan.

Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, and Ahmediyas, all non-Muslim minorities may apply to have an area designated as a safe area by the UN.

In the mean time, the world should highlight the human rights and minority rights abuses in Pakistan. The case of Aasia Bibi could act as a lightening rod!

This is just one solution!
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I also wrote a piece as to how India can go about doing this.

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Process of Total Chaos and Subsequent Redemption
Johann wrote:The real question people have is whether failure in Pakistan will lead to NK like state, Yugoslav/Soviet style dissolution of union, Somali like total collapse, or perhaps even some sort of combination.
Some days back we had an interesting case where there was a quarrel between some Mehsud tribesmen and Usman Punjabi's men in Miranshah, North Waziristan, over the rich widow of a deceased militant, and it ended with Usman Punjabi's death.

What this tells us, is that the potential is there for Islamist groups to fight amongst each other for their share of the booty.

Now let's consider a situation, where the singular entity keeping Pakistan together, the Army has fragmented, for which there are also scenarios. Somehow I don't foresee a Yugoslavian situation, where there are nationalities that assert themselves. Nationalities can only assert themselves where there have been organized secessionist movements having a broad support amongst a nationality, e.g. the Baluchis, the Balawaristanis. During any collapse of the state, these organized movements could take the leadership in bringing some semblance of order to their respective regions and bringing the region under a collective leadership.

In Pushtun Areas, one can imagine a federation of tribes, where each tribe has an area carved out for itself, or an area where a single tribe dominates, and these tribes together form a council, a jirga, to consider issues which have national and extra-territorial relevance or for resolving inter-tribal feuds.

As far as Pakjab and Sindh are concerned, IMO, they would be hit the hardest. Due to the urbanization and development of both elites and middle classes, the tribal hierarchies have broken down. The state machinery has allowed the elite to fleece the country, without needing to give much thought to the plight of the common people. With the break-down of this state machinery, the common people would not be willing to accept the leadership of the present elites.

The Islamists too would not be able to establish a central control, as at the moment there are several militant groups, which are either held together by the Army's control over them, or due to some understanding between the charismatic leaders of these groups in view of a common challenge - the state, the kafirdom, etc. These alliances would be mostly opportunistic. Every Islamist/Jihadist leader would be competing with the other and be wary of head-hunting, poaching, encroachments into one's territories, betrayal to enemies, etc.

In fact, I foresee Islamist gangs marauding the common people, either taking away their kids and making them child soldiers, or if they have no kids, then taking away their possessions and raping the women. Islamism is going to be in name only and the Islamist leader of the gang, would issue fatwas, which would enhance his own position. Something similar to what we saw in Swat with Mullah Radio.

So basically I see a huge Somalia with the difference, that unlike Somalia, where the Islamists are trying to establish a single command over the country by getting rid of the warlords, in Pakistan the Islamists would be too disunited to really be able to do that. In Pakistan the Islamists would be the warlords. Whereas Somalia has a chance of coming out of its misery under some Islamist leadership, Pakistan would have no such chance.

Also there would be no comparison to the 90s Taliban Regime. 90s Taliban Regime in Afghanistan was under the command of Mullah Omar. He was the undisputed Emir. But mostly the unity in the Taliban Movement was the handiwork of ISI. ISI could keep the Taliban together, especially as ISI controlled the financing, the organizational hierarchy, the war-theater strategy, the arms, etc. In case of Pakistan, there would be no higher power. Even Al Qaeda cannot provide the country controlled by Islamist Gangs with structure and direction.

Pakistan's demise into chaos would be total.

What is in it for India?

Well if India is able to keep the refugees at bay and our borders closed, the situation would be very advantageous indeed. In Pakistan due to the activities of the Islamist Gangs, Islam itself would have lost out much of its moral sway. The moderate Mullahs would have already taken their leave from the field through bullets, courtesy of the Islamist Gangs, eager to establish their own writ over an area. We have seen some of this in Afghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan, where tribal leaders and moderate mullahs have been killed off.

So what would be the right strategy for India?

1) Support every Islamist Gang in Pakistan through different handlers and agencies in India - financially, logistically, militarily, and through food and medical supplies. No other groups or countries should be allowed to exert their influence. Any Arabs, Chinese, Americans fishing in these troubled waters need to be taken off the board, using of course, the services of rival Islamist Gangs.

2) Ensure that there is rancor and strife between any two neighboring Islamist Gangs, and occasional bloodshed. India's hand should not be visible in all this. This should create a history of bad blood amongst the Islamist Gangs, which do not allow them to reconcile that easily.

3) Create an awareness in the international community, that religious minorities (Christians, Hindus, Ahmediya, Shia, etc) are taking the brunt of this break-down in law and order, and they need protection. This is to be packaged as a humanitarian tragedy.

4) Pass legislation in the Indian Parliament asking the Indian Government to secure islands of religious minority populations within Pakistan through military means.

5) Send Indian Soldiers to establish and secure 'safe area enclaves' within Pakistan for religious minorities (actually mostly for the Dharmic variety). These safe areas would be provided with food, medicines, water, security, training.

6) Through well-placed agents in Pakjab and Sindh, first countryside and then urban areas, get the people of an area - a village, a neighborhood, which does not belong to a religious minority, e.g. of the Dharmic kind, to pledge allegiance to a minority religion, in order to also avail of Indian protection from the marauding Islamist Gangs. Once the village/neighborhood has converted, India can send Indian forces in into the area.

7) Through military and administrative training of the religious minorities and those converted into a minority religion (e.g. Dharmic religion), and with additional support by Indian forces in emergency cases, India would be able to leave the care of the area in the hands of the locals, freeing the Indian contingent in the area for other areas.

8 ) Gradually as the area under a minority religion in Pakistan increases, India can start emasculating the local Islamist Gangs, through inter-gang wars, through stopping aid to a previously supported gang, through effecting betrayals in their ranks, through aerial bombing, through decapitating, through fighting them out, etc.

9) Once an Islamist Gang has been cornered or brought under sufficient pressure, Indian forces can offer the Islamist Gang to reform, and to convert to a minority religion (e.g. Dharmic one) and under proper guidance from Indian advisors to oversee the conversion of the populace under their own 'jurisdiction' to the same minority religion, in which case the ex-Islamist Gang would be allowed to function and survive.

10) As the ink-drops of Indian Protection spread along with an expanding converted population, a time would come when the rest of the population still unconverted would see the light of day and take the plunge.

IMHO, this is a viable strategy, and if conducted over 20 years, can lead to a reintegration of Pakjab and Sindh into the Indian Union as 'reformed' regions, totally compatible with the values and norms of the Indian Civilization.

Baluchistan and Balawaristan should have been incorporated into the Indian Union much before this Process of Total Chaos and Subsequent Redemption even starts.

As mentioned, before anything positive can start in Pakistan, Pakistan would have to stew in its Islamist juices until all molecules of Islam have broken down. There are steps India can take to see to it that Pakistan lands in the cauldron and there are step Indian can take to increase the heat under the cauldron, and all in the name of Islam. Any serious call for Democracy, Secularism, Islamic Reform, Stability in Pakistan by India is shooting ourselves in our own feet, though officially it is recommended that India sticks to a benign and supposedly helpless position. India needs a direction for Pakistan, a strategy, and what is a better strategy than to give the drug addict, that what it wants the most - Islam.

Basically this is a Hammer and Anvil strategy - Islamist Gangs being the Hammer and Indian Forces the Anvil. Another thing worth noting is that such a strategy built on controlling the chaos and providing the people a tunnel out based on their religious persuasion is not based on compulsion. Indian Forces will not be in Pakistan doing any missionary work or converting Muslims. Indian State need not compromise its secular credentials.

That can be undertaken is by private religious organizations in India using private security companies and providing information to the Indian State of populations in Pakistan requiring Indian protection, and lobbying for intervention by India.
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Dilbu
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Location: Deep in the badlands of BRFATA

Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Dilbu »

Prem wrote: Mushharrf is dark, brown and deep,
Poaks are 3.5 Bf's illegtimate Keep .
if Across the Wagha i can go,
Very own ethos i might know.
Might be able to live like desi Joe .

Suddenly Old man burst in tears,
With all his strength did he cry
Go beta go , must make a try
Too late for me, my bheja is fry.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
saadhak
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by saadhak »

RajeshA wrote: The gender ratio points to an ill mindset that was the case in the said states a couple of decades ago. This is changing. However those men folk who are not so privileged to have a wife, should those men have to live a life without love and family? And if yes, for what fault of theirs? Were they personally responsible for what happened a couple of decades ago?
....
Thanks to the other folks who agree on this point.
RajeshA ji, my response here: viewtopic.php?p=1108676#p1108676
Don't know if this conversation fits in any other thread?
Pranav
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote:As long as Muslims live peacefully in India the idea of Pakistan is fckued. Indian Muslims must suffer for Pakistan to succeed. India must be a threat to Muslims for Pakistan's success.
Which is why Packees have been attacking Mosques and Churches in India from time to time, in the hope of blaming it on the Yindoos.
Lalmohan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Lalmohan »

a key objective of the paquis is to ensure that yeevil yindoos "continue to persecute muslims" - therefore anything that precipitates such actions is encouraged or perpetrated directly. the fact that india stutters but fails to tip over the edge must be horribly frustrating for them
Gagan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 20

Post by Gagan »

Way to go Prem :rotfl:

Hari Seldon-ji watch that video - just get it over with, I say!
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