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harbans wrote:Rajesh Ji did you go through the video? All 8 parts. Whenever you have time, please do if you haven't.. i'm certain it will help you in formulating ideas.
BTW i was just against Paki's being given a free ride into an India. These people have been brought up in a very parochial manner last 60 years. I'm not sure about your proposal really how we could implement it. What if they bring there male relatives too. How do we prevent that. With out WKK and Psec culture do you think India could ever be selective? Too many questions, too little answers. But i do appreciate your trying to work out solutions. They may not be perfect, but they are worth the effort.
harbans ji,
Thank you for the link. I did go through the first video. Will go through others when I find the time.
harbans ji, one can come up with some comprehensive solutions, but sometimes solutions work only when taken as a package. Once we start breaking it, it all unravels.
All solutions proposed here are actually worthless, because in the end many depend on the leadership to implement them. If they are compromised and are unwilling to look after the interests of the nation. So the assumption whenever one proposes some solutions is that there is a national leadership looking after national interests.
Carl wrote: On this platform, there is a greater probability that an Indic man can take a wife from Pakistan or Iran (which also has a female surplus) and effect a dharmically positive outcome as far as family and offspring is concerned.[/b] Sufism is under attack all over the Islamic world today including Pakistan and even amongst Indian Moslems, epsecially in Kashmir. This ought to be countered.
However, there is a finer point of discrimination here. Due to repression even in the Iranian heartladnd, Persian Sufis often found a haven in India.
Now in India a new Hindu identity is being formed. It is called as Sufi Hindus. This identity is to recreate a new - sub Hindu group which is like a social engineering to accumulate the Hindu identity.
The Tablighi are doing a secret movement to remove sufi and impose Sunni worldwide and create a larger sunni clanship.
devesh wrote:Pak is not about to collapse anytime soon. and the women importing project is a long term one. it won't happen in the next 50 years. i'm doubtful even in the next 100 years. this should only happen after Pak state has collapsed, Pak public has stewed in their juices for a good generation in total lawlessness and oppression by Islamists, and eventually spending another solid generation in Indian sponsored reeducation movements.
so, it is a project of 4-6 generations. we can start thinking about women importing from Pak a good 100 years from now. right now is too premature...
we should remember that Pak today is a result of 1000 years of invasions and colonial domination. we should expect that it will take at least 200 years for "independent" Pak to realize *and* come to terms with its fundamental ideological and existential bankruptcy. a 200 years period makes complete sense when we realize that it took 10 centuries to make modern Pak.
devesh ji,
You're looking at the pace of human development as it used to be pre-Globalized Age, pre-Information Age, pre-Industrial Age. The time spans for social evolution have decreased rapidly. In fact they have shortened to such an extent that in past gone-by eras one would have called them social revolution.
Earlier same land could support a bigger portion of the populace as the populations were smaller. With huge population pressure on scarce resources today, the only way for a nation to survive is to have very efficient totally decongested arteries of the state, so that money, goods, resources, information, opportunities, etc. can flow unhindered. A state needs to offer governance responsive to the needs of the people. Economically and socially, the Pakistanis stand between a rock and a hard place, between dwindling resources to support the population explosion and collapse of governance.
Pakistan stands on a precipice, and if this time USA should withdraw support, Pakistani economy would tank leading to hyperinflation. Just imagine how hyperinflation would work on a populace which has over 50% absolute poverty and an abundance of weapons! Whereas in places like Brazil and Turkey, one had responsible governments to fight off hyperinflation, in Pakistan far and wide there is nobody, who could pull it off. Everybody is busy creaming off, whatever he can get.
In fact, we see the inkspot of lawlessness spreading through Pakistan already, and this is Pakistan with maximum support by the West and Gulf! What happens when that shuts down! The gun culture will undo Pakistan.
Published on Jun 14, 2011
By Ahmad Ahmadani
PSO unable to import oil: The Nation
ISLAMABAD - Due to sever ever-soaring circular debt crisis, Pakistan State Oil (PSO) seems unable to conclude its new oil import deals planned for March-April 2011, as the receivables by the cash-strapped public sector company has reached to Rs 166.43 billion plus.
Well-placed sources in Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Resources informed TheNation on Sunday that the public sector company is suffering circular debt of Rs 166 billion, thus there are remote chances of PSO securing oil import supplies in the given situation. The Pakistan State Oil (PSO) has awarded tender for one million tons oil import, planned for March-April 2011, to meet domestic requirements, despite facing financial woes due to non-payment of dues by power sector.
“Yes, on promise of payment of Rs 30 billion at the earliest by the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Water and Power, tender has been awarded for oil import, spokesman of the PSO said, adding that “PSO is under financial constraints but after Rs 30 billion being received situation would ease out for a few weeks and we would further prevent accumulation of circular debt”. She, however, said it has come to my notice that the Finance Ministry has released Rs 30 billion to Water and Power Ministry for PSO. It may be recalled that reportedly PSO had deferred award of tender on February 21, 2011 due to lack of funds. “The power sector could face fuel supply suspension and the nation might have faced major power outages if PSO had not awarded tender for oil imports,” sources added. In a meeting recently chaired by Minister Finance Dr Abdul Hafeez Sheikh, it was announced to release Rs 30 billion to the Ministry of Water and Power to release the amount onward to PSO. “So far, no money has been released out of the committed amount,” sources said, adding that the tender was awarded hoping that Rs 30 billion amount would be released to PSO to make payment to the fuel suppliers.
All this will have a snow ball effect on the economy to an extent that it would not be redeemable any longer. Segments of the economy would collapse one after another.
The Pakistani Army is turning a blind eye to this despite warnings from their economists, and playing with fire. Hidden behind their garrison towns, they're saying that the doomsday scenarios for the economy are all being overblown by everybody, and it is not all that bad. So they can play their little games with USA. They are in for a big surprise.
All solutions proposed here are actually worthless, because in the end many depend on the leadership to implement them.
No none are worthless. I may disagree with many, maybe most.. But then that's what we need too. Something somewhere may click, right idea, right time..presto. We need ideas to be generated all the time really. 99.5 % patent ideas really don't come to anything. The 0.5% make this world happen. So as long as we keep generating ideas we know the solution to will come. I don't know how..but probably it's some law. It does happen. Keep walking.
I looked at a couple of those video links on exponential growth. Basically anybody who understands compound interest understands the issue.
And yes, the problem we face with runaway Pakistani population increase is really a dire one.
The solution I proposed is exactly meant to curb the problem you speak of. For every 3 girls born in Pakistan, 2 come to India, while 1 is left in Pakistan.
The current fertility rate in Pakistan is a whopping 3.17 %. That means every woman gives birth to over 3 kids. If we start importing Pakistani women, for every six kids born, only two kids, a girl and a boy would in the future be able to procreate. The rest four would go to "waste", two girls being exported to India, and two boys left playing with their marbles lifelong.
So whereas the next generation would have produced 10 (9.51 actually) kids to feed the Pakistani factories, instead they will be producing just 1 kid!!!!
We would have reduced the fertility rate of Pakistan from 3.17 to just 1.06. For a culture to sustain itself it needs a fertility rate of at least 1.9. That is why I say, Pakistan would be dead as a people over the long run.
Carl wrote:Couldn't resist posting my 2 cents on some points regarding Rajesh ji's proposal (pun not intended)
SandeepA wrote:In my experience (and I'm sure most you too) I have not seen a single instance where a marriage between Hindu and Muslim/Xtian has resulted in the assimilation of the offspring into the Dharmic way. This is true irrespective of the boy or girl being Hindu. Why? Simply because our dharma does not have a way to ensure the assimilation of the offspring. There no Friday sermon or Sunday mass the kids need to attend to inculcate a pride into the culture of one of the parent. All he hears from the Hindu parents' side is the p-sec stuff that all religions are equal whereas the non-Hindu parents' side is all the more keen to ensure their religion does not lose out.
Tensun nai lene ka. Like some others here, my family is also an "All-India" melting pot - Punjabi, Oriya, Bengali, UP, Tamil, Telugu, and Parsi; Hindu, Christian, Zoroastrian, and Moslem; upper class, middle class, lower-middle class. In our experience, most mixed marriages had no problem, except when some of us married Muslim girls, whose parents went apesh!t and even made threats. There was some push and pull there, but that was resolved rather easily, with maturity and spiritual direction. All the children of such marriages seem to be non-Moslem (Hindu or Christian), though that is not the point.
To bring the argument full circle, all favorable conditions for deeper demographic engagement through marriage, etc. will not manifest unless there is a change of this loser mentality amongst hypocritically conservative, xenophobic, diffident Hindus. There has to be an expansive, exhuberant, and philosophically clear movement from within, the essence of which is service to a livewire spiritual tradition rather than preserving only cultural forms. There has to be the spirit of appreciating and acknowledging Truth, no matter what cultural form it assumes. A dog recognizes its Master no matter what clothes he wears. That sort of individuation - the ability to recognize truth at the intersection of various categories rather than as a separate exclusive category - is the genius of Indic tradition. There is a difference between culture (since cultures evolve) and Dharma. Find an acharya, a philosophy, a (sub-)mission for yourself, and you will have more than just Friday sermons for assimilation and gravitational pull. Look at some of the Hindu movements even today - Iskcon, Art Of Living, etc.
Unfortunately for many, whether in making love or war, the dhoti-shivering appears to be the same.
Carl ji,
thanks for the examples and wisdom!
Frankly speaking, I have been more than a little taken aback at the ferocity of rejection by BRFites here of the proposal to get Pakistani women for Indian men.
Some have quote Dharma, why it cannot be done, others consider it ethnically abhorrent to even think of Pakistani women, while others have called them inbred and fanatics, and unworthy of bearing Indian children! I can't really put my finger on to it, why they would go against it! I don't know what frightens the living hell out of them!
It is as if Indian men have no say whatsoever in how his children are to be reared. It is as if there is no patriarchalism in India left. Basically they are considering the Indian man to be a ballless creature, who would submit to whichever Pakistani woman steps through his door! An astounding sense of submissiveness to Pakistanis, to even Pakistani women, and to Islam. And that despite of her being cut off from her relations, living in a community not known to her till just recently.
It is incredible how Dharmic Couch-Potatriotism gets used to explain away plain and simple submissiveness to Islam and Pakis!
i've got nothing against pakistani women, i have known a few charming ones (and some less so)
however, i'm less excited by the arguements about fertility control and transference on ethical grounds
that said, if pakistani women seek to migrate to india for their own prospect enhancement, e.g. meera, veena, etc., i don't have a problem with that. but like adnan sami, they need to reorient themselves. a bit like east germans used to cross the berlin wall into west germany
Lalmohan wrote:i've got nothing against pakistani women, i have known a few charming ones (and some less so)
however, i'm less excited by the arguements about fertility control and transference on ethical grounds
that said, if pakistani women seek to migrate to india for their own prospect enhancement, e.g. meera, veena, etc., i don't have a problem with that. but like adnan sami, they need to reorient themselves. a bit like east germans used to cross the berlin wall into west germany
Lalmohan ji,
Allowing Pakistani women to migrate to India for enhancing their prospects, which sounds like a small number, is a concept I feel has zero strategic worth. Why should a Bharat-Rakshak Forumite care about that?
Getting 50 million Pakistani women over to India is a different matter, for that has a profound effect on the demographics of the Indian Subcontinent, and becomes something worthy of strategic interest.
As far as ethical grounds are concerned, I would be very interested to know what those ethical grounds are!
Frankly speaking, I have been more than a little taken aback at the ferocity of rejection by BRFites here of the proposal to get Pakistani women for Indian men.
Don't get it wrong. But there's a thinking why not let them stew in their own creation. Who would'nt want to see a Fatima Bhutto behind a shuttlecock facing literal Islam. After all this is what they wanted. Allowing them to come to India and again do Taqiyya because there back is to the wall..well there's some inertia to that thought. There are legitimate questions that can be put up to your proposal. First will they really integrate..what if they bring male members. What if they only marry Muslim men. or IMs marry 3-4..and there generations vote the Digvijay's and Mulayams in..and the then clamor for sharia. I don't know yet if such a thing will work really. Don't mind the critics here.
Lalmohan wrote:rajeshji, i dont subscribe to the view that women are the goods and chattels of men
that is all
Lalmohan ji, Mehr is an old Muslim tradition, and Pakistanis live by that tradition. Giving and receiving Mehr is ethically sound according to Islam.
If somebody wants to marry a Muslim woman, one would have to pay mehr! Should you decline to pay mehr, then you would be acting contrary to law and tradition.
Qu'ran says: "According to a tradition in Bukhari, the mahr is an essential condition for the legality of the marriage: 'Every marriage without mahr is null and void'."
It is only once an Indic marries the Pakistani woman, brings her to India, only after that can the woman be considered in the true sense, as not "the goods and chattels of men", as you put it!
Rajesh Ji wrt to your 'proposal' here's Arshad Warsi.
"Islam is a very nice religion, but it's been misinterpreted very badly. Quran means a book to be read; it doesn't claim to be a holy book," Arshad told IANS. He said, "Ninety percent of what people say about Islam is a myth.
Half of the people don't know the truth about Islam," said the actor who is married to Maria Goretti, a Christian, and they have two children, a son named Zeke Warsi and a baby girl named Zene Zoe Warsi. The 43-year-old actor however says he is not a very religious person. "I'm not religious. I don't believe in rituals. However, I'm not an atheist. I believe in god. I believe that there is a power and I believe that all the religions are just different roads of reaching that one power. But those roads are made by people that I don't like," said the actor, who made his debut in 1996 with "Tere Mere Sapne". "I go everywhere, I celebrate everything. My kids if you see, you'll see them more as Christians as they go to church very often. I have no problems with that," he added. ""
harbans wrote:Frankly speaking, I have been more than a little taken aback at the ferocity of rejection by BRFites here of the proposal to get Pakistani women for Indian men.
Don't get it wrong. But there's a thinking why not let them stew in their own creation.
harbans ji,
India needs to have a comprehensive policy towards Pakistan. I am in favor of changing the current policy itself. We should close our gates shut to Pakistanis! That helps to keep the stew out!
However "allowing the Pakis to stew in their own juice", I am afraid is a mantra for doing nothing. They will still multiply like rabbits, and still continue with their Islamism, and their war on India!
We have to get pro-active here! Reduce their numbers, weaken their capacity, uproot their networks, unsettle their bonds with other countries and powers, distract them from India, keep them unbalanced, etc.
harbans wrote:Who would'nt want to see a Fatima Bhutto behind a shuttlecock facing literal Islam. After all this is what they wanted.
This is not just about RAPE. 97% of Pakistanis would just be genetic Indians trapped in Pakistan and Pakislam! The proposal is not about importing RAPE women to India. They will find their own partners. It is about getting women from the poorer sections of Pakistani society. The RAPE are so few, the migration of their women to India or elsewhere doesn't really make much of a difference in the overall demographics.
We have to disassociate ourselves with the images of Fatima Bhuttos and Mira Sethis, when we discuss the issue of importing Pakistani women for Indian grooms.
harbans wrote:Allowing them to come to India and again do Taqiyya because there back is to the wall..well there's some inertia to that thought. There are legitimate questions that can be put up to your proposal.
Penchant for Taqqiya decreases as we travel down the income group. Moreover the scope of taqqiya is only so much as the other allows the Pakistani woman (in this case)! If the laws and regulations do not allow much scope, then there is not much what they can extract out of this. Please read the proposal on transfer of mehr (i.e. Dharmic Foundation vi - ix) to the Pakistani family from which the bride comes.
harbans wrote:First will they really integrate..
These women would be plucked out of their social environments, and transferred to India to live with a man she didn't know much about, with culture and customs, which may be somewhat strange to her. She will not be going back to Pakistan any time soon. She would have come to India to live here, as part of the deal between the groom, the bride and bride's family.
With time she will have no choice but to integrate!
harbans wrote:what if they bring male members.
The only male member to be allowed in would be the father of the bride, for the wedding, and after that for two months a year if he is above the age of 55. No other male members of her family would be allowed in. No brothers, no cousins, no uncles.
harbans wrote:What if they only marry Muslim men. or IMs marry 3-4..and there generations vote the Digvijay's and Mulayams in..and the then clamor for sharia.
Per our genetic heritage most maternal DNA in India/TSP belongs to the first migration out of Africa, 60,000 years ago. Similar to Australian Aborigines, Andaman Islanders, Philippine moros, etc. While most male X-Chromosome DNA belongs to the second migration out of Africa 40,000 years ago through the Middle East.
Basically this probably means that males from the second migration eventually got to India, killed off all the males from the first migration and took their women. This is how it has worked 'naturally'. You can't get the women without dealing w/ the men.
Keep in mind that most researchers believe that both first and second migration consisted of less than 1000 individuals all put together and all our billions are decedent from that tiny tiny genetic pool. We have more more tigers around today than this number. Talk about inbreeding.
The TSPA and RAPE think in millieneal lines of Qayamat on India with their bum. Time and again they have displayed this thought. Eg. Brigadier'a article in Atlantic Monthly etc. And some mad caps among them think that even if they are destroyed they will bring about Islamist takeover of Hind.
What your plan says is Indians will take care of the remanents of TSP society after the mad caps are self destroyed. So dont pull the trigger for you will lose finally.
Its not gender discriminatory to give Pakistani women of this strata a brighter future of freedom and self-respect. Granted this sort of thing could happen in some parts of India too, but the situation here will get better; in Pakistan its getting worse.
ramana wrote:RajeshA, Something for you to ponder on.
The TSPA and RAPE think in millieneal lines of Qayamat on India with their bum. Time and again they have displayed this thought. Eg. Brigadier'a article in Atlantic Monthly etc. And some mad caps among them think that even if they are destroyed they will bring about Islamist takeover of Hind.
What your plan says is Indians will take care of the remanents of TSP society after the mad caps are self destroyed. So dont pull the trigger for you will lose finally.
ramana garu,
For the scenario when the Paki jernails pull the trigger, I had set up a thread "Aftermath of Nuclear Attack: India's Civilizational Renewal"! I think, I would like to develop the scenario over there on these lines of taking away their women after giving each his 72 raisins.
However the proposed "solution" is valid without the need for any further tripwire being needed to be set off by the Pakis-tani Jernails & Co.! They have caused sufficient suffering to India as it is. The only condition that requires fulfilling here is a further raising of the economic gradient between the two countries.
As we see, Pakistan is going down the drain - chaos, insecurity, hyperinflation, non-governance, Talibanism would eventually take over! There is no escape! All this talk of Pakistan standing on the crossroads is BS. The crossroads were perhaps more than 2 decades ago! Now is the straight route to hell! Their education has collapsed to such an extent they don't have the brains for pulling the country forward! Their debt is piling on! There is no future!
When the difference between the economies of India and Pakistan would become obviously enormous (more than now), then the export of brides from Pakistan would be the natural consequence! They wouldn't have anything else to sell. Similarly there will be a healthy demand in India for brides from abroad to balance the skewed sex ratio in India. This is coming regardless of whether somebody puts this proposal into action or not.
With every dollar they spend on their nukes, with every dollar they spend on their khakhis and not on education and trade, in fact they are sealing their fate of selling their women, because soon they will run out of dollars as well as the capacity to earn more! So India should invite them to start a new arms race!
This proposal talks about a certain systemization, a certain institutionalization, a certain industrialization, a certain mechanization, a certain framework, to make the process a roaring success and to align this natural process with the interests of the Indics.
It is destiny: Indics will have the moolah, so the Mullah will sell the Pakeezahs!
Theo_Fidel wrote:Basically this probably means that males from the second migration eventually got to India, killed off all the males from the first migration and took their women. This is how it has worked 'naturally'. You can't get the women without dealing w/ the men.
Indians will be dealing with the Pakistani men to get their women, this time in dollars!
I dunno. They might sell their neighbor's daughter or even a third cousin, but they prefer to sell their daughters, etc to close family/relations only. How do you overcome that.
Also they would expect conversion to their religion for the men. And there will always be a certain section of Indians that would cave. To much like a Trojan army (pun intended ) for my liking.
RajeshA ji,
you underestimate the ability of Pakistaniyat to survive even after Pakistan state has officially disintegrated into smaller states. Pakistaniyat won't disappear overnight. and Theo ji's questions are valid ones. the anti-India identity and the fantasizing about Ummah will continue in Sindh, Khyber, and Pakjab long after Pakistan official stops to exist. Pashtun nationalism, if supported and nurtured, will neuter the Taliban and perhaps even the Pakiban. but Pakjab and Sindh deracination is something much deepel and tarrel
harbans wrote:Indians will be dealing with the Pakistani men to get their women, this time in dollars!
I liked your reply. Nice one.
All those who are dreaming.
Wakt anne pe batta dengge tujhe o Hindustan
Avergae Poakawrat ki keemat $ mei kya hai !!
This issue calls for immediate integration of South Asian Beeratherly market and acceptance of INR as currency of payment. Those who can pay in Dollar will get 20% discount and lets hope no more import duty to fill GOI pockets.
Seriously,Paki jernails must be made aware of the consequences of their action. Let them know the similar policy will extend to all of their supossed Pitrs in ME. The revenge wont end with Poak sent to parlok only.
I am wondering if this jirga has discussed another issue that bothers me greatly of late: as Pakistan circulates around the drain, let us say that it does "fall apart" rather rapidly at some point. Does the GOI have plans for walking into at least the Northern Areas? I can imagine the Chinese, Americans, Afghans, and even the Iranians all having a go, while India stands around twiddling its thumbs. I wonder if India has gamed the situation and has some military plans should this happen, especially if the Chinese have similar plans.
Added later: just saw the chinese threat thread and recent articles from tribune with similar concerns as above. I hope GOI is planning...
There are doubts whether the Pakistanis would give their daughters to the Hindus in India. Let's see how a typical acquisition of approval for marriage would be made from the father.
The Money Lender
When the population of Pakistan becomes still poorer and cannot make ends meet, the institution of the money lender would make a big comeback. Most probably the money lender would have his own little army of gun-toting men. But he would be a nice man to whom people who are in need could go to, when they can't make their ends meet, and when the money is not sufficient to even buy a single onion to go with the half chappati, or when the poor Paki needs to make an investment and build himself some jhopardi. The money lender would of course first look, whether the man can pay back, and the primary consideration would be whether the guy has any daughters.
Now when the man would not be able to pay back, the nice money lender would suggest that he could pay him from out of the mehr he gets for his daughters.
The little army would of course be there to ensure that the money-lender gets his money back!
Now before the jirga starts accusing me of being an evil Hindu baniya, I'd like to say in my defense, that this is going to happen regardless of whether anybody reads these lines or not!
The Insecurity
Every Pakistani man with a daughter would be a man who would be very very afraid. Considering that the export of girls would already have caused a huge dearth of women in Pakistan, and that the state system of protection would have collapsed, the man should be having every reason to be afraid.
So the man would be very keen on marrying off the girl as soon as possible, and secondly he would have to look for protection for his family by supporting the area leader, who would most probably be the money lender too. So he would have to bow to the wishes of the area leader sooner or later. The area leader would assure him, that nobody would touch his daughters, and he need not worry.
The Matrimonial Agency
Pakistan would be full of matrimonial agencies because that would simply be the biggest business, in fact a multi-billion dollar business in a poor country.
The Sales Pitch
Most probably matrimonial agents would start visiting a girl's father, as soon as she turns 14. They will tell him about how many great matches they have made for other girls; how the agency have been able to find great Indian Muslim guys for other girls; how the IM guys have their own business in Chandni Chowk and how they are employed in India in some MNC, even if it is only as a doorkeeper; how the IM guys have their own house in Mumbai; how the IM guys family are devout Muslims; etc. The picture that would be projected would be that the Indian Muslims in India are doing great and that they often look for Pakistani brides.
There will be enough stories from Indian Muslims who have succeeded in India, about all the Indian Muslims working in Bollywood and those playing in IPL and Indian cricket team. In fact, it would be touted that the Vice-Presidents have also been Muslims. So basically all Indian Muslims are doing great, and enjoying their time going to huge mosques like Jama Masjid. So the story sells.
So the Matrimonial Agent would be going every now and then to visit the father of a girl coming of age, to build good contacts with him, to drink tea with him, and to tell him about the Indian Muslim utopia that exists in India.
The Softening
Of course when the time comes, when the daughter comes of age and turns 18, and the money lender or the area leaders start putting pressure on the poor man, the poor man too would be looking to the Matrimonial Agent to find a nice Indian Muslim bridegroom for his daughter.
The Matrimonial Agent would now start telling him to come after a week and that probably after a week he may have somebody for him. There would be more notices from the money lender that he wants his money back, there would be more suggestions from the area leader that the poor man should now marry off his daughter for even his own men would start getting greedy. The poor man would be making even more calls to the Matrimonial Agent to look for a groom more quickly. So the poor man would now become somewhat desperate.
The Offer
When the Poor Man becomes desperate enough, then the Matrimonial Agent would in all privacy tell him that he could offer a Hindu guy. He would say, of course, that this Hindu Guy is different that most others, for he has a very soft corner for Muslims, and the chances are that in the future he would most probably convert! The Matrimonial Agent would be telling the Poor Man, that this Hindu Guy is well off and he would treat the Poor Man's daughter good. And most importantly the whole issue would be dealt with a lot of discretion, and nobody in the neighborhood or in "Pakistan" would ever learn about it. The Poor Man would be told that if he wants assurance that everything is okay, he would be allowed to go to India for the wedding. But he has to give his approval within two days or the match would be gone!
The Poor Man would also be told about the Mehr on offer, which would sound to his ears like an exorbitant sum, a bit more than his expectations, more than enough to catch his interest.
When the Poor Man goes home, the same evening he will get another call from the money lender with a little ultimatum.
The next morning the Poor Man would again be standing in front of the Matrimonial Agent signing off on the deal.
Then the Poor Man would get a photo of the Hindu Guy to see, and be asked to bring his daughter next morning for a Skype session with the Hindu Man.
The Virtual Meeting
The Matrimonial Agency would make all the arrangements for the video conference by informing their counterparts in India to get in touch with the poor Hindu Guy and to get him to their office in front of the computer at 11 o'clock next day!
Next morning, the Poor Man's daughter would come to the agency's office, who would set up a video conference, probably using satellite connection, as otherwise there would hardly be any Internet in Pakistan.
The man and woman would get to know each other. Perhaps both of them may need to use a translator. The Hindu Guy would assure her that she would be well looked after in India and later on he would tell her father, that he awaits their visit to India.
The Lie
The Matrimonial Agent and the Poor Man in Pakistan would make an arrangement that none of them would ever tell anybody that the bridegroom is a Hindu. The mother of the girl would of course be informed but would herself be sworn to keep the secret. No other relation, neither the brothers of the Poor Man or the sons would be told about the bridegroom. Also the girl would not be telling any of her friends about the religion of the groom. And So it becomes a Secret, a Lie. For the public, it would be said that the girl is going to marry an Indian Muslim who happens to be well off, and sounds like a very decent and pious Muslim.
The Mehr Installments
Just before leaving for India for the wedding, the Poor Man would get the first installment of Mehr. That would be 25% of the whole Mehr! Once he has reached India and attended the wedding, he would receive the next 25% of the sum agreed. After 18 months of a successful marriage, the Poor Man would receive the other 50%.
Arrangements for Travel to India
The Matrimonial Agent would be responsible for making the arrangements for the bride and her parents to travel to India for the wedding. When the bride and her parents arrive in India, the matrimonial agency's Indian partners would take over their care. They would be bought tickets to the home town of the groom, given one set of alternate "Hindu clothes" to wear if the groom is Hindu, lent a one-button basic mobile device to contact the agents should they have a problem, and put on the train. At the station the groom and his friends would receive the guests from Pakistan. The bride and her parents would then be put up in a guest house and if the groom is a Bhakt, someone from the Dharmic Foudation Associated Temple would be sent to explain in detail to the guests, what awaits them, in form of ceremonies, clothing styles, customs, etc.
If the groom is Hindu, then the wedding ceremony would be conducted in a Hindu style at the temple.
Keeping the Secret
When back in Pakistan, the Poor Man is not supposed to divulge the address or other contact details of his daughter. Different excuses can be made, e.g. the Poor Man told the "Indian Muslim" groom's family that they are well-off in Pakistan, and he doesn't want anybody to tell them the truth, or that the Poor Man doesn't want anybody from Pakistan blackmailing his daughter or otherwise threatening her.
Even the other Pakistani women who are married off to Indians would not be told about the contact details of the Pakistani woman, now married to Indian.
When the Pakeezah visits her parents once every 3-4 years, she would not be bringing her children. She can come in a burqa as is the customs in Pakistan and act as if she is still Muslim. She can show the photos of her children dressed up in "Muslim clothes" walking around in some Indian mosque or some other Muslim setting, and tell stories how her husband in India is a pious man. She can use Muslim names for her children back in India. Basically nobody would know that she is married to an Indic in India. So when back in Pakistan for the visit she can do Taqqiya also.
Also not having studied, her relations and friends too would not be expecting the woman to write letters and postcards.
Keeping her address a secret is important so that no Indian Islamist friends of Pakistani Islamists can visit her and find out the truth, or somebody else in Pakistan thinking that she is married to some "well-off" Indian tries to blackmail her to pay up or something may happen to her family in Pakistan. It is also useful to keep the media at bay. It is also to protect the Matrimonial Agent.
Also she would be retaining her Pakistani or Pakjabi Passport or given some travel document stating her Pakistani origins. On this document she would be retaining her old original Muslim name.
Visiting Pakistan
Considering that Pakistanis would be getting into a situation where women would be a rare commodity, it would always be dangerous for Pakeezahs already married to Indians to go and visit their parents and family in Pakistan. It would be advisable that they do it only every 3-4 years. The Matrimonial Agencies would be directly responsible for the safety and security of the Pakeezahs in their Maike, especially against kidnapping or her relatives trying to sell her again! They would be given some money, but more importantly it would be their reputation which would be on the line should the Matrimonial Agencies fail to provide security. After all they don't want to be sidelined and their work be taken over by another Matrimonial Agency!
Pakeezah life in India
In India, Pakeezah will get a new name if married to an Indic. She will be given an ID card with her details and visa details in the chip, and on this document/card she would be allowed to carry her new name, the Indic name!
She would first get an Indian stay permit for two years, and then two extensions. After six years, she would get the status of Indian of Pakistani Origin (IPO), which would be a quasi-citizenship. With this status she would be able to enjoy all the rights of an Indian citizen. The changes would be made on her ID card, with which she would then be allowed to vote.
If she has married an Indic, whose marriage has been sponsored by the Dharmic Foundation, then there will be an expectation, that over time she should accept a new spiritual framework with all the associated customs and traditions. For this she would be given guidance.
She may also be encouraged to join school and would be taught to read and write and simple mathematics. It is likely that she would not have received any education at all in Pakistan, should she hail from a poor family. She would also be taught other skills to make a living so that she can support her husband and her family in India.
Even if she is poor and wed into a poor family, the effort should be that she has a life of respect, some freedom and fun in India.
Divorce
This quasi-citizenship however also means, that she would retain her Pakistani or Pakjabi citizenship. This is important for the situation that should she get a divorce, she would be required to return to Pakistan. Also in case the Indian Muslim she is married to, should he marry again and take a new wife, she would be required to return to Pakistan too, with her kids, whose custody she would be having. In the case of a marriage to Indics, the Indic father would be given custody of the kids, on the pretext that in Pakistan they would be discriminated against being a minority.
The Context: The Indian Stranglehold
We are considering a situation where central authority has collapsed in Pakistan. Even at the state level, there is no government. There are only fiefdoms of feudals, Islamist organizations, crime gangs, tribal groups - all little kingdoms constantly at war with other. In fact one should call them gangdoms and not kingdoms.
India would have absolute control over this chaos, where Indian intelligence agencies decide which gang to support with what arms and how much money. None will be allowed to become too strong.
Even the Zamindars would be at the mercy of Indians, for we can either support them or support their rivals. Considering that everybody would be everybody else's throats, all the agricultural produce of Pakjab and Sindh can only be sold in India, for we would be the only place with the money to buy all that food. Some would of course go around in Pakistan as well, but much would be sold to India. Since the Pakjabis would not have access to any other markets due to hostility with neighboring tribes and states, Indians need not pay them too much, and we will be getting for much less than the global commodity prices. Also we would be controlling how much water is allowed in from the Indus River Basin, and how the water is distributed in Pakistan. So we control the whole situation in Pakistan. So the Zamindars, or other power brokers too would be dependent on India, and would have to listen to Indian demands, including giving India their cooperation is ensuring that the Pakeezahs be delivered to India, and that too in big numbers.
Furthermore, the whole anti-Hindu propaganda in Pakistan, would have to come to an end. The Hindus would be presented as big hearted and wealthy and great friends with Indian Muslims and respectful of Islam, which is not far from the truth.
All the area leaders as such would derive their power from their standing with the Indians, and that would depend on how compliant they have been with India's interests and wishes. Even the Money-Lenders in Pakistan would just be branches of Indian Money-Lenders. Also the Matrimonial Agencies would be Pakistani branches of Indian Matrimonial Agencies.
India will create the chaos, and India will control the chaos!
Conclusions
The reason for a presenting a detailed way of getting the Pakeezahs married to Indians was simply to convince both BRFites and Paki Lurkers that it is possible to get at the Pakeezahs regardless of Islamization, anti-India hate, anti-Hindu bigotry and Pakistaniyat, which one finds in Pakistan today.
Basically this is the scenario that would be repeated in Pakistan in one form or another. Everybody in Pakistan would think, that all the girls were married off to Indian Muslims, except of course, one's own daughter, which had a little misfortune of having to marry a SDRE Indic. It would be all be a great lie, and everybody would be a part of it! If anybody gets the abuse for taking away all the Pakistani women, then it would be the Indian Muslims! If anybody gets the envy of being well-off with great prospects, then it would be the Indian Muslims! And since they too would be marrying Pakistani women, there will be little information as to how many Pakeezahs ended up marrying Indics!
If War with India gives them the nightmares, wait when we start making love!
The target is to get 50 million Pakeezahs to be married to Indians in the next 25 years!
And now to cheer up our Pakistani beeradhers, here is a song: Sabse bara Rupaiyah!
PS. And just in case some Pakis get all worked up about Indian conspiracies, they should note that I haven't even started talking about the upcoming roaring organ harvesting market in Pakistan for Indians!
Theo_Fidel wrote:I dunno. They might sell their neighbor's daughter or even a third cousin, but they prefer to sell their daughters, etc to close family/relations only. How do you overcome that.
This is certainly a reason why India would not be getting 100% of all Pakeezahs, and only 2/3 of them. But if the Pakistani parents marry off their daughters to "Indian Muslims" at least they will get a bigger mehr, something with which they can survive. If they only marry their daughters in exchange for a daughter-in-law, all that mehr and that too for both families would not be forthcoming!
Theo_Fidel wrote:Also they would expect conversion to their religion for the men. And there will always be a certain section of Indians that would cave. To much like a Trojan army (pun intended ) for my liking.
They can get some false promises about the groom willing to consider it in the future, if that helps them make their decisions easier, but no conversion would take place.
Most of the Pakeezahs would be imported for very poor Indians, and these Indians, according to the proposal, could get support for their marriages from the "Dharmic Foundation", which means these Indians and their Pakeezah wives would always be under the guidance of some Dharmic entitiy (e.g. a nearby Temple, etc.), and as such there need not be any danger of Pakeezah working as a Trojan.
She would most probably be a Pakistani woman cut off from her relations in an alien country, with her relations not having any way to visit her, due to visa restrictions. At some point of time, a man should stop knocking his knees together!
Please go through the last 3 big posts on how it all would work!
devesh wrote:RajeshA ji,
you underestimate the ability of Pakistaniyat to survive even after Pakistan state has officially disintegrated into smaller states. Pakistaniyat won't disappear overnight. and Theo ji's questions are valid ones. the anti-India identity and the fantasizing about Ummah will continue in Sindh, Khyber, and Pakjab long after Pakistan official stops to exist. Pashtun nationalism, if supported and nurtured, will neuter the Taliban and perhaps even the Pakiban. but Pakjab and Sindh deracination is something much deepel and tarrel
Was watching ARY cooking channel for folks claim TSP chefs are good at making sweets. The guy was making Phirni and complaining about quality of milk in TSP. Apprently the vendors add atta, singhada flour and what not all of which makes the milk curdle while boiling and leads to bad phirni!
So there is another pointer of TSP failing. Even milk is not safe. They need to import milk packets.
shiv wrote:Secondly, (and i repeat that we men have not suppressed women enough) - we need to recall that women are way way ahead of men in certain matters. They are frequently able to twist men around their fingers - which is why men even on BRF only half resentfully refer to wives/significant other wimmen as "Supreme HQ". The point to remember here is that the first man in a girl's life is daddy. Women are able to handle husband, sons/s and daddy and give them all something. So by importing Packee wimmens we are inadvertently importing/helping Packee mens. Will post more sociological info on this later
Just responding to the second part of your post, somewhat belated!
In a sense that is true! If we import Paki women, we would be helping Packee men. We would be paying the bride's father mehr and then other middlemen would also earn their commissions.
However the scope of influence and power allowed to the Pakistani bride would be constrained through legislation, especially when it has to do with whether she can bring along some Pakistani men/relatives into India.
Over 90% of the Pakistani women coming to India would be from the Low Income Group or from the really Poor Group. I don't want to imply that these women would less self-confident than the women from the Middle-Income Group or from the Well-Off Group or RAPEttes, but we do not need to assign these women mythical powers of manipulation.
Simply from the fact, that the Pakistani woman agrees to come to India and marry some poor non-Muslim Indian chap just because her father and family needs the mehr, is sufficient proof that her self-confidence leaves a lot to be desired.
shiv wrote:It does not pay to treat women as a separate entity from men. If we desire to shoot Paki men, shoot the women too. If we get wimmens, the men will also come. It would be a massive self goal to try and get women alone and imagine that it will have no effect on our own women. Why don't we move on to some other idea?
Indian women would not really mind it, because in those social classes where Indian women could mind, would be the lower-middle class upwards. Amongst the well-off, Pakistani women would be too few, and amongst the middle class, the Pakistani women would mostly be with Indian Muslims.
I am of course making assumptions here, but I think they are educated assumptions.
Last edited by RajeshA on 16 Jun 2011 17:23, edited 2 times in total.
Indians would be better off marrying Buddhist Japanese/Tibetans or even Chinese and increasing Indic gene concentration than diluting by marrying Pakeezahs. Last pakeezah I met tried to convince me how KSA has the best respect and reverence for women!
The question does come up if Hillary would have been tougher on TSP, had this Pakeezah not been in her staff.
Karna_A wrote:Indians would be better off marrying Buddhist Japanese/Tibetans or even Chinese and increasing Indic gene concentration than diluting by marrying Pakeezahs. Last pakeezah I met tried to convince me how KSA has the best respect and reverence for women!
Karna_A ji,
Indian men are free to marry whoever they want!
We should not look at diluting the Dharmic pool by marrying Pakeezahs, but rather of expanding our Dharmic pool by doing so, as we bring in the Pakeezahs also into the pool. In the proposed model of Dharmic supervision through a body called Dharmic Foundation, it would assured that this is the case.
I've argued that we don't need too many Pakeezahs from the RAPE or Well-Off class. Some would still find their way to India, but that would be through their own efforts and because they want so. Middle-Income Group Pakeezahs would mostly be married to Indian Muslim men, so they too are of no concern to Indics.
Pakeezahs from the Low-Income Group and the Poor Pakeezahs would not be having such mentality as you mention, and one would be able to mold them accordingly.
We should not take examples of RAPEs and Well-Off Pakistanis when we consider this issue of importing Pakistani brides.
Last edited by RajeshA on 16 Jun 2011 17:22, edited 2 times in total.
Rajesh A, rather than all these grand strageties which will never work in numbers in the real world, why not just dump large quantities of Impotency drugs in the Indus and its tributaries on the Indo-Pak border, Kabul river in Afganistan on the Afgan-Pak border. That would get TSP fertility rates down in a Jiffy. A more humane way of control stray dogs? what say?
Aditya_V wrote:Rajesh A, rather than all these grand strageties which will never work in numbers in the real world, why not just dump large quantities of Impotency drugs in the Indus and its tributaries on the Indo-Pak border, Kabul river in Afganistan on the Afgan-Pak border. That would get TSP fertility rates down in a Jiffy. A more humane way of control stray dogs? what say?
Aditya_V ji,
A very under the belt, a very suggestion! Good!
Just some questions:
Which impotency drugs do you have in mind? In what bulk quantities would we have to pour them into the Indus basin for them to have an effect? Would the GoI be doing this or would it be a private enterprise? Who is going to take the initiative? Would there be side-effects on the fauna that lives and drinks along the rivers?
No under the Belt suggestion and not meant to hurt, But I find it very difficult that we can get enough women in Pakistan to marry Indian men make a difference to thier fertility rates.
This is just an Idea and practical modalities and specifics not worked out, dont know even if practical- I am suggesting that Non- State actors dump estrogens etc. which get in the food chain water chain of where 95% of Pakis live. In a few years Racket Mards will find the impact.
But then that's what we need too. Something somewhere may click, right idea, right time..presto. We need ideas to be generated all the time really. 99.5 % patent ideas really don't come to anything. The 0.5% make this world happen. So as long as we keep generating ideas we know the solution to will come. I don't know how..but probably it's some law. It does happen. Keep walking.
He sounds reasonable!
