Indian Military Aviation

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Jun 2011 00:29

Juggi G wrote: The Real Reason is that the Indian Air Force (IAF) fears a takeover by the Army or worse, Being Ordered Around to Support Ground Forces in a Future Conflict.

WTH? Isn't that the AF's job? This COIS thing is looking more and more like a giant clusterfcuk.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jun 2011 00:55

nachiket wrote:WTH? Isn't that the AF's job? This COIS thing is looking more and more like a giant clusterfcuk.

It is the air force's job to provide close air ground support to advancing Indian troops or to take out enemy troops advancing onto Indian positions. The problem is that the air force - as per this article - believes the Army will order them to do that. If that is true, then it is absolute nonsense. The three services should get away from the mentality that one service is supreme over the other. Rather, they need to come around to the idea that they need each other in order to fully utilize the tools available to them.

Synergy Stalled
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40277.html

Politicians fear an all-powerful military man could theoretically take over the country.

This is sheer nonsense. No one man can take over the country, even if he is the highest ranking service officer. We are NOT Pakistan. When ACM Idris Hasan Latif became the Air Chief in the 1980s, a Pakistani asked his Indian counterpart now that Latif Saab - a Muslim - is the Air Chief...can't he just order all the IAF planes to fly to Pakistan? Our politicians need to have some trust in the military that serves the Government of the day and ultimately the nation. They trust them to guard their own hides!!!!

An good article (dated 1999) and just one among the numerous models, that the Indian Armed Forces could adopt.

Re-Organisation of Indian Defence Setup
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... ation.html

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Jun 2011 01:02

India Airlift Increases

India Airlift Increases
MARIETTA Ga., June 16th, 2011

On June 15, the third and fourth of six C-130J Super Hercules for the Indian Air Force departed the Lockheed Martin facility in Marietta, Ga. en route to Air Force Station Hindan in India.

The Remaining Two C-130Js on Order will be Delivered Later this Summer.

Equipped with an Infrared Detection Set, the aircraft can perform precision low-level flying, airdrops and landing in blackout conditions. Self-protection systems and other features are included to ensure aircraft survivability in hostile air defense environments. The aircraft also is equipped with air-to-air receiver refueling capability for extended range operations.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jun 2011 02:34

http://spsaviation.net/story_issue.asp?Article=736

From the above link...guess who else attends Anatolian Eagle?

We have another Red Flag exercise lined up....very nice.

Red Flag and Cope India with USA, Anatolian Eagle with Turkey and other exercises with friendly countries are all on the anvil.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Jun 2011 05:40

Government set to decide $30 billion Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft deals

The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal P.V. Naik, told India Strategic defence magazine (http://www.indiastrategic.in) that the commercial bids of the two finalists in the race for 126-plus Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) would be opened this month, and those for the combat, heavy-lift and utility helicopters and the basic trainer aircraft "any time between the next few days to few weeks".

The air chief did not give any figures, but a rough calculation shows that IAF could be announcing deals worth $30 billion, or more, by the end of 2011.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 17 Jun 2011 06:00

Gents AFM has got a two page spread on Yell Cee Yaa and the recent Hercules acquistion and some impending American acquisitions being undertaken by IAF will scan up and post over the wkend.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Jun 2011 07:30

The Future is Now
Opinion » Edit Page

The writer is research fellow, Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 17 Jun 2011 08:37

There was news about all vintage fighters been reactivated , any news about HF-24 been rebuilt from old airframes and been flown for this event ?

. India was funding E-300 jet engine ,which was developed by Egyptian General Aero Organisation (EGAO) for their HA-300 fighter aircraft development again a German Design ,but due to Arab war and cheap Soviet fighters , whole program was canceled .

and a rare image from its first flight ,Tst pilot in white G-suit

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 09:02

The point about basing C-130J in Hindon actually confused me as well. The only rational can be the fact that it is the main base for Garud Commando Force (GCF). There are no IA SF units nearby nor NSG will require them. Or, is it that Agra base is full and infra cannot take any other squadron?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 09:04

Agra has a bunch of IL76 incl phalcons. so maybe space is a constraint.

again brings up my persistent demand for bigger desi ramsteins and offutt type airbases which can house *dozens* of big birds efficiently in peacetime, which will disperse in war.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2011 09:17

karan_mc wrote:There was news about all vintage fighters been reactivated , any news about HF-24 been rebuilt from old airframes and been flown for this event ?

The possibility of this happening does not stand the chance of a stream of piss in a tsunami. Ever since I found out that there would be a HF 24 event this year I have desperately been trying to get at least one video of a flying HF 24. Nobody even knows of the existence of such a video. HAL archives may or may not have any.

If you look at the way the US can make more than one C-17 a month and how HAL struggles to fit in Hawk and ALH and LCA - it is an indicator of how thinly industrialised our country is. In the west where people put old planes together and fly theme there are hajaar private engineering firms with former pilots and engineers who can do the work. A look at Jane's will show how many aviation companies there are in Australia and Canada - let alone Britain, France, Germany or the US with whom we cannot even start to compare ourselves.

prithvi · Post by **prithvi** » 17 Jun 2011 09:47

shiv wrote:
karan_mc wrote:There was news about all vintage fighters been reactivated , any news about HF-24 been rebuilt from old airframes and been flown for this event ?
The possibility of this happening does not stand the chance of a stream of piss in a tsunami. Ever since I found out that there would be a HF 24 event this year I have desperately been trying to get at least one video of a flying HF 24. Nobody even knows of the existence of such a video. HAL archives may or may not have any.

If you look at the way the US can make more than one C-17 a month and how HAL struggles to fit in Hawk and ALH and LCA - it is an indicator of how thinly industrialised our country is. In the west where people put old planes together and fly theme there are hajaar private engineering firms with former pilots and engineers who can do the work. A look at Jane's will show how many aviation companies there are in Australia and Canada - let alone Britain, France, Germany or the US with whom we cannot even start to compare ourselves.

All the Mechanical, Civil, Electrical "Engineers" are working for Murthys .. Sirjee...!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 10:00

yes Shiv is right. even a typical german auto major like VW or Audi stands at the apex of a pyramid of 100s of small and medium engineering firms each of whom can design, fabricate and test parts to world class precision and original thinking. same for the Japanese cos - I read the making of the metal master moulds for luxury lexus type automobiles is done by small scale artisanal craftsmen who specialize in only that and fashion it with the care and deftness needed to make the best jewelry or samurai sword blades.

our entire social culture is "just make it good enough". during the construction of my own flat recently, I detected so many instances where the workers could have done a patient and proper job but they just cut corners and tried to paper it over.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Jun 2011 10:23

Frankly I think India could be declared an "industrial society" if 15% of our population-150 million) are directly employed in industry, industrial research or production. Just a guess.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Jun 2011 11:05

Juggi G wrote:India Selects Pilatus Basic Trainer

Finally!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 11:55

learnt something new -
the USMC is modding the C-130J to deliver hellfire missiles and PGMs per wiki (see pic) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_M ... r_Hercules

also there is a stretched variant called C130J-30 whose pics you can see here

The stretched C-130J-30 adds 15 feet of fuselage length over its C-130J counterpart, most of which is placed forward of the wing as the plane stretches from 97’9” (29.3 m) to 112’9” (34.69 m). The extra cargo space allows it to add adds 2 standard pallets (to

, 23 litters (to 97), 8 CDS bundles (to 24), 36 combat troops (to 128), or 28 paratroopers (to 92) over C-130H/J models, and the aircraft’s maximum cargo weight increases by 9,000 pounds (to 164,000 pounds/ 74,393 kg), while maximum allowable cargo payload rises by a ton (to 44,000 pounds/ 19,958 kg).

In practice, maximum normal payload is 2,000 pounds higher than the C-130J, but 500 pounds lower than the C-130H’s 36,500 pounds. Even so, the stretched C-130J-30 shares the C-130J’s ability to use much more of its theoretical cargo capacity in hot or high altitude environments than previous C-130 versions; US experience in places like Afghanistan and Iraq indicates that as many as 3 C-130H models may be required to do the job of 1 C-130J in these “hot and high” conditions.

In exchange, the stretched C-130J-30 suffers a speed drop of 7 mph (410 mph at 22,000 feet) vs. the C-130J, a 2,000 foot lower ceiling (26,000 feet with full payload), and maximum range at full payload that falls by 115 miles to 1,956 miles. It does outshine the smaller C-130J when carrying only 35,000 pounds of cargo, however: its 2,417 miles is a 576 mile increase over the C-130J, and a 921 mile increase over the C-130H.

----
I think around 75 of C130J-30 is just what we need to bury the MTA corpse and move on in life....

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 11:58

20T is just what the MTA was supposed to have - C130J-30 matches it.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 17 Jun 2011 12:14

The MTA seems going nowhere. It's time to shift attention to this project and be a participant in it.
Embraer KC-390

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 Jun 2011 12:48

MTA will go no where , and will ultimately get scarped due to cost and time over run.

darshand · Post by **darshand** » 17 Jun 2011 13:24

Singha wrote: also there is a stretched variant called C130J-30 whose pics you can see here

I think around 75 of C130J-30 is just what we need to bury the MTA corpse and move on in life....

Sinhaji, our C130Js are the stretched -30 versions. The earlier news reports (before signing of the contract) referred to them as the -30s but recent reports have stopped using that suffix. The only report I could find that refers to them being stretched:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... ces-02224/

Also the proportions from the photos of IAF C130s match those of the stretched one posted by you. Totally agree about getting a bunch of C130J-30s - non-specop versions though.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Jun 2011 14:03

KC-390 looks like a mini C-17 , On MTA HAL seems to be hiring
http://www.indiagol.com/2011/05/halindi ... -2011.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 16:25

I can also confirm all our current lot of C130 is the stretch 130-30 version looking at this pic , in the regular model the trailing edge of the wing is about where the flat section of fuselage ends...not so here...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... 733494.jpg

its can accomodate one more Hummer size vehicle.

the normal range fetish of Khan at MTOW and max internal fuel does not apply to India, because Khans typical supply mission is from depots in europe covering 3000km to middle east/af-pak and likewise across the pacific using AAR.

from bangalore,kerala (or more typically depots in central India) both the C17 and C130J-30 should be able to take off at MAX payload, and not even need their full internal fuel to reach places like Leh and Tezpur. one tank of gas might be enough to return back with some payload like medevac or repairable eqpt thus shortening the turnaround time in the danger zone.....and the ability of the C17 (and I guess the C130) to back itself into austere tarmacs is a bonus....its around 1000km from jabalpur / Hyd to tezpur or leh...

mashallah, I like both these birds....I want more!! been alternately seeing visions and dhoti shivering since that 13 plane shakinah pic this morning.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 17:35

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=14906
CEO Arvind Lakshmikumar said they developed these systems for Europe's biggest defence company, which in turn sold them to the US Army. However, for 35-year-old Lakshmikumar, the main mission is to build visual sensing systems which sense, analyse and control complex environments for Indian defence.

PhD in robotics from Carnegie Mellon University of USA.

products include night vision goggles and smart thermal cameras

clients: (DRDO), Mahindra Satyam as well as the Defence Advanced Research Projects Agency of the US.

sdre ko jai.. this is another (previous one was RBE2AESA?) sounding note for our armed forces to think hard when they trash home grown systems easily.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jun 2011 17:39

singhaji - good point, given the shorter ranges within india, the c17 can either lift more maal, or fly more sorties with minimal turnaround times, makes for much larger throughput

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 18:09

As I had said in the original slugfest about C-17 - it is the muscles and not legs which count the most in our case. Though, the legs will come handy in any out-of-area contigencies.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Jun 2011 18:34

rohitbabu - the penny took a while to drop for this old mujahid, maafi maangta hoon

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 17 Jun 2011 18:47

HAL relives first fighter's maiden flight 50 years ago.

State-run defence behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) celebrated the maiden flight of its first fighter bomber here Friday. It was on this day five decades ago - June 17, 1961 - that Marut (HF-24) took to the skies in this aerospace hub .

To mark the golden jubilee celebrations of the first indigenous jet, the $2.9-billion company roped in its prime customer the Indian Air Force (IAF) to relive the trials and tribulations of its designers, engineers, technicians and test pilots who worked together to roll out the mock-up wooden glider in 1959 and Marut aircraft two years later.

"The first generation pilots of the air force just loved flying Marut with a sense of pride as it was our own and stood the test of time for over two decades, with a stellar performance during the Indo-Pak war in 1971," Air Marshal K.J. Mathews said on the occasion.

Admitting that Marut, which means 'Spirit of the Tempest' in Sanksrit, did not perform the way the air force pilots wanted to fly due to problems its engines faced, Mathews said there was something special about it as it was the first fighter-bomber aircraft that was designed, developed and assembled by a developing country.

"Notwithstanding the teething troubles they faced from the imported (Orpheus) engines and flight controls, we nurtured it and got to love it eventually. Though I have flown almost the whole range of aircraft over the years, flying Marut was different as the experience was unique," Mathews recalled.

As part of the IAF frontline fleet, the single-seater Marut played an active role in the India-Pakistan 1965 war and not a single aircraft was lost in any aerial combat.

IAF test pilot Group Captain Suranjan Das had the honour of flying the prototype of HF-24 with tail number BR 462 in the presence of then defence minister V.K. Krishna Menon and then HAL managing director Air Vice Marshal Aspy Merwan Engineer.

After Marut was certified for initial and final operational clearances, HAL built 129 single seaters and 18 twin-seater trainers from 1964 to 1977.

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 17 Jun 2011 18:53

rohitvats wrote:As I had said in the original slugfest about C-17 - it is the muscles and not legs which count the most in our case. Though, the legs will come handy in any out-of-area contigencies.

Both Muscles and Legs needed when supplying Andaman/Nicobar from deeper within the country.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 17 Jun 2011 18:56

Considering the C-130J-30 vs. Embraer 390 debate, what are the pros and cons of propeller driven and turbo engines? Which one is more efficient and more capable for the role that IAF envision for its medium transport fleet?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 19:09

the 390 has a ceiling advantage of 36000ft vs 26000ft. likely it would perform better at high alt. that being said, the C130 has 4 engines and likely could limp home on 3 under full load. and being a proven airframe with huge nos in service, the risk of surprises is very minimal if it meets our yardsticks for hi-alt cargo hauler role ... afterall AN32s are doing it daily even to the ALGs not to speak of Leh.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 19:18

future wars with chips, any possibility of crossing the Himalayas with c17?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Jun 2011 19:28

The An 32 is the real unsung hero here

Remember all the hoohah when they first came in as how we were the only guys operating it, engines too big, crack yada yada

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Jun 2011 20:02

tough jobs require tough mules. an32 definitely is one.

Johann saar said many moons back that if you want to really scare your enemies , invest heavily into air and ground logistics.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 22:27

Lalmohan wrote:rohitbabu - the penny took a while to drop for this old mujahid, maafi maangta hoon

Lalbrof.......please not to embarassing this abdul!!!!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 22:35

So, 25 odd c-17s, and some 25 odd home grown ones in collaboration with either russkies or brazil could really scare the surrounding enemy thoughts.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Jun 2011 22:39

If the idea is to outflank the enemy in the high-mountains to the north and north-east, a strong airlift component+air assualt capability with multiple para-brigades and air maneuver brigades is a must.

The best scenario in any Indo-pak is to put max pressure on LOC north of Zojila, drop a brigade worth of troops to cut of Northern Areas from rest of TSP to prevent reinforcement and land an air assualt brigade each at Gilgit and Skardu. The troops on the LOC will be stuck between IA in the front and back....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Jun 2011 22:54

andy B wrote:Gents AFM has got a two page spread on Yell Cee Yaa and the recent Hercules acquistion and some impending American acquisitions being undertaken by IAF will scan up and post over the wkend.

looking forward to it!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jun 2011 22:56

so, what does it come with in terms of offensive system. I am thinking sdre version of these giants must carry both AA and AG weapons, with aesa fcr. Possible carry Astra, BrahMos and KS172 as well.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jun 2011 04:27

Avid wrote:Both Muscles and Legs needed when supplying Andaman/Nicobar from deeper within the country.

We currently supply ANC by ships and AN32 from the mainland. Port Blair has a 10K ft runway, both C130Js and C17s can comfortably land and take off!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jun 2011 04:34

rohitvats wrote:If the idea is to outflank the enemy in the high-mountains to the north and north-east, a strong airlift component+air assualt capability with multiple para-brigades and air maneuver brigades is a must.

The best scenario in any Indo-pak is to put max pressure on LOC north of Zojila, drop a brigade worth of troops to cut of Northern Areas from rest of TSP to prevent reinforcement and land an air assualt brigade each at Gilgit and Skardu. The troops on the LOC will be stuck between IA in the front and back....

That would be awesome... this cutsoff the ability of the Chips to resupply their favorite munna...