Managing Pakistan's failure

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 8

Close the Paki Factory

I find it very difficult that we can get enough women in Pakistan to marry Indian men make a difference to thier fertility rates.

Aditya_V ji,
The target the proposed model sets is that two-thirds of all Pakistani women in marriageable age be transferred to India.

So the doubts whether such targets can be met can depend on various factors:

1. Is there so much demand in India for imported brides? -- Yes
2. Would the situation in Pakistan compel them to export brides? -- Yes, but the economic situation needs to grow much worse still.
3. Would the interested Indians be able to finance that demand? - Yes, but with dedicated external support.
4. Would the machinery be able to process such "trade"? That is what needs to be set up! But it is going to be a multi-billion industry, so there will be interested parties.

As things are today, of course, it is implausible that India would be able to suction off so many Pakeezahs from Pakistan. There is little machinery to process such "trade"! The Pakistanis are not doing bad enough! The Indians needing wives are not able to afford any imports!

So what you say is correct. However the proposal is meant for a dystopian scenario in Pakistan a few years into the future. The scenario helps to crystallize ideas as to what kind of structures India would want to see in Pakistan in the future and how India should be able to manipulate them and to what ends. So a lot more engineering on Pakistani state and society is required, before the proposal can be considered as prospective, as plausible.

The proposal is also a road map with a lot of variables. Success would depend on how many variables India can control.

[jambudvipa]

RajeshA garu ...totally out of the box thinking regarding pakeezahs...

very well written piece.

[Aditya_V]

Ok now I get it

[Lalmohan]

let them have more hip-swaying bollywood starlet action
that will break down their society from both ends and burn it in the middle
1. demand for the same from mango abduls
2. demand to be the same from mango ayeshas
3. frothing at the mouth from mullahs - leading to their irrelevance

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 8

Close the Paki Factory

RajeshA, I would go slow on the idea of Pakistani women as its a sorry issue of white slavery and human trafficking.

I recall the movie Refugee that launched Abhishek Bacchan and Karishma Kapoor. Pinjaar also comes to mind.

See this report:

http://www.aed-ccsg.org/resources/repor ... rriage.pdf


Right now, 25000 bangladeshi muslim women are sold as brides to low class- poor Hindu men ,

This is what will happen to Pakistani women importation

ramana garu,

Thank you for the link! I browsed through it but would be reading it much more thoroughly. It is an interesting piece for it tells about the the thinking of the imported brides and their situation. However the piece goes on to imply as if Hindus don't value the system of marriage!

There are some differences between the situation presented in the paper, and what I propose. Some excerpts pertaining to dowry:

In most cases, parents had consented to the marriage but were not aware of the sale. The obligation to marry a daughter early and the impossibility for poor parents to meet dowry demands were the main push factors.

The practice of buying wives in Uttar Pradesh must be set in the context of a society where the preferred and most honorable form of marriage is for wife-givers to provide a dowry. The predominance of marriage with dowry is documented in the ethnographic literature on the region and is also confirmed by close witnesses. Girls from Bangladesh were married to
men who could not attract a dowry-providing wife or simply could not find a wife locally. Many were older men with children from a previous marriage. Others were poor or, for other reasons, were not in demand on the marriage market. This could be because of a personal handicap, a bad character, a criminal record, a faulty lineage or another reason.

Marriage markets are certainly complex and entail much more than the matching of absolute numbers of males and females. There are many ways to create a ‘surplus’ of females of marriageable age. Excessive dowry demands, failed marriages and easily spoiled reputations created a pool of girls who were extra and had little to loose by migrating. The ‘surplus’ was created also by poverty and landlessness in an economy dominated by agriculture. The idea of a ‘surplus’ of girls was exploited by dalals who thus justified their trade in girls and women.

A mother whose two daughters did so describes the pressure they felt then. This was in 1983.

‘We could not marry our eldest daughter who had reached the age of marriage [she was 17 years old]. We could not pay for dowry. Her sister was one year younger. We kept our daughters inside the house but people
still criticized us. “Your daughters are like banana trees. They are growing out of the roof. They are like elephants [too big to be living at their parents]. How can you keep them inside the house? At their age, I had two children already.” My daughters felt shame. They did not want to hear these insults anymore. So, they left to be married in Lucknow.’

For this father, leaving his daughter unwed was not an option. He married her at a young age so that she would not oppose her father’s decision. Nironjon is considering marrying Tulie’s younger sister in Uttar Pradesh also. Note that Nironjon did not ‘sell’ his daughter but he did not have to pay for a dowry which in itself is an immense relief.

Hearing about their having been purchased made Nazma and Tahomina surrender in defeat. Could they not have challenged the conduct of such ‘sale’ as immoral, illegal and unacceptable? The power of ideological constructs sustaining market and marriage systems here must not be minimized. Actors involved in the trafficking scenario broadly shared a culture in which the right to appropriate what has been paid for is recognized. As for
marriage, it guarantees a husband (and his family) monopoly rights over a wife wed-locked into a long-lasting role of subservience. These wives possessed no wealth of their own, not even the jewelry which came with a dowry and they had completely lost the support of their natal families.

For people with very little choice, protest and lack of consent cannot be retained as criteria of trafficking. A majority of the girls who left to be married in Uttar Pradesh and beyond came from poor families. Parents were trapped. They could not pay for dowry and without dowry prospects for marriage were extremely poor. The obligation to arrange a marriage, even if it be a bad one, was felt by both, parents and children. Many daughters agreed that if a marriage in Uttar Pradesh was the only kind they could afford, they would accept.

Some girls left laughing, others left crying but most left quiet and resigned, they ‘understood’ what was expected of them.

Parents’ inability to pay for dowry comes top of the list among the reasons given for a marriage in Uttar Pradesh or elsewhere in north India. Explicitly stated in 31 percent of the cases, this reason can be read in other answers as well. We know that a high dowry could redeem poor looks, damaged reputation, advanced age or other negative points on the marriage market. Similarly, acceding to dowry demands after marriage could avert the dissolution of a marriage. The dilemma of poor parents who were under the obligation to marry their daughters, could not do so without dowry but were unable to raise the required amount was evoked earlier. For such parents, sending a daughter to Uttar Pradesh was a god-sent offer.

The view that dowry demand is the main reason why poor parents agreed to marry their daughters in north India is widely shared by parents, journalists and NGO workers. None ofthem could challenge the religious obligation to marry daughters which is foroz kaj and poverty could not be escaped. So, all decried dowry demands. There is no space here to debate further why the dowry system, which so blatantly undervalues women, developed in Bangladesh.

Nearly one quarter of the girls and/or their parents were approached by dalals who actively sought recruits to feed their business. Proposing a ‘service’, some took money from both, the wife-givers and the wife-takers.

How was a ‘surplus’ of girls to be sold and disposed off on a distant marriage market produced in the first place? Poverty, war, floods and famines had taken their toll on Bangladesh society but some suffered much more than others. It must never be
forgotten that excessive dowry demands, the obligation to marry a daughter in any way and regardless of risks were some of the social mores which prompted the offer and the sale of girls abroad.

The article is of course quite moving as it depicts the plight of the Bangladeshi brides. Some of my conclusions after reading:

1. Dowry is very much prevalent in India, Bangladesh and, as I read elsewhere, in Pakistan also. I was under the illusion that except for some Subcontinental Muslim communities, many often use the custom of mehr!
2. So burden of dowry is often the cause for many parents in Bangladesh to look for "out-of-the-box" grooms in India.
3. Insecurity in society can be a powerful motivator for transferring brides to a more stable region.
4. The girls who were "sold" in India as brides, complained that they were not allowed to visit their families in Bangladesh; that their relatives from Bangladesh were either not invited or not received properly; that their work was hard and monotonous; that they were married off to much older men; that they were only accepted as wives after bearing children, whereas earlier they were treated as slaves; etc. They had difficulties with language, lack of proper medical care, etc.

This is about women who migrated in the 70s and 80s. The paper itself says the import of Bangladeshi women has died down, with more opportunities in Bangladesh itself. The author of the paper, Thérèse Blanchet, herself looks at marriage of Muslim girls to Hindu men quite negatively, so there is some tendency to portray everything to do with the phenomenon negatively.

In my posts earlier, I have tried to emphasize that we should not consider the proposal as either human-trafficking nor as slavery.

In human-trafficking, women are taken without their consent, with coercion or trickery, to far off places, often across international boundaries and sold into slavery or prostitution. It happens against the will of the state, against the law of the state, and without supervision of the authorities or bodies sympathetic to the women thus trafficked.

In the proposed solution, there may be pressure on the parents to marry off their daughters across the religious divide, but the provisions of not marrying Muslim girls to Hindu men is a provision which itself requires a big kick in the ass, and anything that undermines it is welcome, and I couldn't care less what means are used. But besides that, there is no coercion.

1. Pakeezah would be able to see her future husband via video conference., and talk to him.
2. Pakeezah and her parents would be told the truth about what the groom does for a living, even if it is with some sales pitch.
3. The marriage would take place with the approval of Pakeezah's parents.
4. Pakeezah's parents would travel to India along with her to the wedding, and would be allowed to interact with the family of the groom, with the groom himself and the community.
5. Mehr would be paid to the father of the girl, or the next responsible for her in Pakistan.
6. The border would be tightly closed, so that human-trafficking doesn't take place except through proper channels under due oversight.

Also the proposal should not be considered as slavery:

1. The girl would be giving her consent.
2. There would be a proper wedding ceremony.
3. May be there would a lot of work to do later on to earn a living, but the husband would be doing it just as well.
4. The Pakeezah is allowed to have a divorce anytime and return to Pakistan.
5. The Pakeezah can go and visit Pakistan every 3-4 years, albeit without her kids, even as she hides that her marriage is to a Hindu, but she is free to go.

I spoke of a Dharmic Foundation, which finances the marriage of poor Indians to poor Pakistani women. The network of temples, social associations, etc. would be making an effort to integrate the "bahu" into the society, teaching her language, culture, providing her with some basic education, and making her feel at home. There would also be counselling provided to the husband to ensure that he treats her well. It cannot be all work and no play. There will be one or the other social worker from the Dharmic Foundation Network calling upon her to see to it that she is happy.

Also her parents would be allowed to enter India at least for two months in an year (if the parents are over 55). That too would help Pakeezah retain her happiness in India. The parents themselves would be happy to be leaving the dystopian Pakistan behind, even if it is for two months.

Many of the examples were of Bangladeshi girls having to marry much older men from India (U.P.), many of whom were widowers. This pattern is certainly going to change with the upcoming Indian generation under 25s, who simply would not have any choices, but to look for women from outside India, e.g. in Pakistan. So the men, the Pakeezahs would be marrying would also be quite young.

The still prevailing system of dowry in Pakistan also works in India's favor, for that would provide the parents of the girl double incentive to marry off their daughters to Indians willing to pay mehr.

except that being fairer, Pakistani women can get higher status hindus as husbands

To some extent this could be true, but poorer sections in Pakistan also look quite SDRE to me!

Summary: The Pakeezah Proposal should not be equated with slavery or human-trafficking.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA garu ...totally out of the box thinking regarding pakeezahs...

very well written piece.

jambudvipa ji,

thanks for your time and appreciation!

[RajeshA]

let them have more hip-swaying bollywood starlet action
that will break down their society from both ends and burn it in the middle
1. demand for the same from mango abduls
2. demand to be the same from mango ayeshas
3. frothing at the mouth from mullahs - leading to their irrelevance

They will all still hate India in order to compensate for their debauchery.

[Prem]

[quote="RajeshA They will all still hate India in order to compensate for their debauchery.[/quote]

But Indians will be luving it in every sense of gratification. They will both hate and fear us. Rich India is One antidote to various kinds of poisons injected in the body ince the beginning of past millenium. China might be able to shake the whole world but Indian awakening will mould the whole world anew like Lord Buddha did and many more like him before . Ancients said Vasudevam Kutumbam, New Yindian will grow to claim 'Vasudevam Puttram".

[ramana]

Prem, What we need to understand is that NWFP and all that area is part of greater Punjab. The lnaguage maybe different but the natural frontier of greater Punjab is Afghania/Persia border.
For administrative reasons among others reasons, the Brits split off NWFP lands from greater Punjab. Without tie up with Punjab all those lands become banjar lands and lead to current mess.

[Prem]

This is the price we are paying for the demise of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule. He had the area secured . The Area will soon come back to us . These folks can survive and thrive onlee if they get $$ from India. Money is the mother milk of all geo-poitics and Poaks will never have it because of their inherrent inability to be constructive.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Indianize Balwaristanis

India's whole internal and international campaign to integrate J&K in India is based on holding water in the cupped palm of the hands!

Some water gets vaporized simply by the heat of Wahhabism spreading in the Valley. Some water gets spilled by the constant by the shoves and knocks every other power gives us passing us by on the geopolitical fast lane. Some water simply seeps through our fingers, due to the mal-governance and mismanagement by the local authorities, some water gets dirty from the dirt between our fingers as we have to use force to quell the dissension.

Every way we look at it, we are playing a defensive game. Indian PoV, the Instrument of Accession, Article 370, State level elections, etc. don't really mean much to our detractors because they have their own narrative, and are not interested in listening to what we have to say! If an impression takes hold in the international scene, that we are holding Kashmir against the will of the people, rightly or wrongly, we would be forced on the defensive. If all the criticism were not of any interest to us, if the opinions of Kashmiris were not of any interest to us, if there were not two hostile entities bordering Kashmir with a third one sitting right in the middle of J&K, then we would have simply shrugged our shoulders and told others to go take a hike. But we are sensitive to what we hear about us being told in the international media.

Basically an anti-Indian attitude among the Kashmir Valley Wahhabis is a conscious decision by them, and is not dependent on how we treat them. If we show the kid gloves, they become emboldened, and when we bring out the fist, then the Pakistanis, China, West, Ummah start shouting, and the Kashmiris even louder. So what to do?

We need to take the fight to the enemy! We need to put the others on the defensive!

Why is the focus of the world media not on Gilgit-Baltistan and what is going on there? Has anybody tried to find out the state of human rights abuses there? Where are the pronouncements by OIC on the issue, or even West speaking out on Pakistani occupation of the area?

The blame for that lies squarely on the shoulders of GoI, who have done nothing to highlight the plight of Gilgitians and Baltistanis!

Our Constitution says that Pakistan Occupied Kashmir is part of India. What has GoI done in the last years to promote this? Why isn't somebody hauling GoI over the coals for its total passivity and disinterest, even though the area is of paramount interest to India, strategically speaking?

To that we may not get an answer anytime soon! But we need to develop a framework to integrate the area with India. So what is all that needs to be done? I'll be posting some of my thoughts on that!

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Identifying our citizens

IDSA brought out a report in May, 2011 on PoK (Pg. 38) and advised the GoI:

9. The people of PoK should be regarded as citizens of India and special documents should be issued to them in this regard. They may be allowed to visit India after proper check of their antecedents

Suggestions here are only an extrapolation of what IDSA has suggested to the GoI.

We need to change our way of looking at Gilgitians and Baltistanis. These are Indians who were imprisoned on the wrong side of the border because we decided to take the case to the UN and not to solve the question there and then! These are Indian not just in the conjunction tense and sense - What could have been, but rather they are Indians as per our Constitution! As per our Constitution, the whole of "Azad Kashmir" and "Gilgit-Baltistan" belong to India, along with other parts of Kashmir currently occupied by China.

In order to integrate the Gilgitians and Baltistanis and other minorities of Balwaristan into India, we have to know who these people are, and secondly we have to ensure that the area has maximum physical and communications connectivity with India. Everything else flows from that.

So how do we go about discerning the identities of Gilgitians and Baltistanis and other minorities from Balwaristan, who should be called Indian citizens. Only those and descendants of those, who used to live in the region before Pushtun Tribes and later all sorts of Pakistanis overran the place, can be accepted as Indian citizens. Either we have to get the Gilgitians and Baltistanis over to India for the purpose, or go and do the identification there in hostile environment or get the information from someone, who would not have any interest to give us wrong information.

So how do we lure the Gilgitians and Baltistanis to come to India? It should be using a subject matter which is close to the heart of all Gilgitians and Baltistanis - Health.

For a moment let's suppose there are open borders between India and Pakistan at the LoC, say the Skardu-Kargil border-crossing is allowed.

Health
We are talking about winning hearts and minds. And India should put its best foot forward for this. We should build a world-quality hospital in Kargil. We make the hospital the default hospital where every Gilgitian and Baltistani travel to get medical care - from heart transplants to dental care.

On this side of the border we will be able to question the patients, and build a database of all Gilgitians and Baltistanis and discern whether they belong to the pre-1947 original inhabitants and their descendants, or to the others who moved in later. Every patient who comes to India, we need to take their finger-prints, retina-scans, and dna samples. We need to interrogate them about their villages, languages spoken, profession and entire family tree, and the information should be captured digitally and filed with the patient's data record.

The patient should be encouraged to bring/send other members of their family and neighborhood for a check-up or medical care, and the same procedure repeated again.

Thus we need to build a complete database of all of India's citizens living in Gilgit.

The hospital should be manned by both friendly Indic and Kargili doctors, so that the patients return with the sense that Indics and Muslims get along well, and the rest is just Pakistani propaganda.

Just Ask Aga Khan
Aga Khan is the leader of the Shia Iman Islamaili sect. Most of the Muslims living in Gilgit, at least originally, are of the Ismailie Sect. Aga Khan IV could oblige India and either provide the information on the Gilgitians, as either he may have it available or he could order a census in Gilgit, which may include the gathering of biometric data. This too would help India to know who amongst the Gilgitians and Baltistanis can be considered Indian citizens.

I guess somewhere Aga Khan too knows that the future of his Ismaili tribe does not lie with the Pakistanis, and he should try to get Gilgit into India, for sooner or later the Ismailis too would become the next Ahmediyyas of Pakistan. So he may be willing to undertake the project, as long as he has good relations with the Pakistani establishment.

Do it ourselves
We can of course, train a group of Gilgitians and Baltistanis and others from the area, to go and collect the identities of all those, who descend from the original pre-1947 Gilgitians and Baltistanis. The information should include biometric data (finger prints, iris scans), names, birth dates, religious affiliation, mother tongue, family graphs, etc. These people would have to conduct the census without divulging the purpose to the pro-Pakistani authorities there, which would seem to be a difficult task at first thought, but any which way, we need to get at this information.

The Identity Database
Once all the data is available or most of it is available, we could claim to have a database of Indian citizens, who are resident of Gilgit-Baltistan.

Then cards can be issued to Gilgitians and Baltistastanis, perhaps modeled on the Multipurpose National Identity Card scheme.

These cards can be collected when the Gilgitians visit India, i.e. when they are registered, or later on, or these can be sent to the various people there using trustworthy couriers.

At the most we would be naturalizing around 1.5 million Gilgitians and Baltistanis. Many who live in the region are those who moved from elsewhere to the place.

Naturalization
I am not quite certain how the people would be given citizenship, as naturally belonging to India, or those who have naturalized. Most probably an oath of allegiance would have to be administered before giving the Gilgitian or Baltistani Indian citizenship, making them eligible for Indian Passport. Oath of Allegiance is specified in the Second Schedule of the Indian Citizenship Act

OATH OF ALLEGIANCE I, A. B._________ do solemnly affirm (or swear) that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of India as by law established, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of India and fulfil my duties as a citizen of India

The Diaspora
India could consider giving Indian Passports to Gilgitians and Baltistanis who live abroad on Pakistani passports, allowing them a double passport facility.

It could be unfair to take away their Pakistani Passports, as then they may not be allowed to enter Pakistan and travel to their homes in Gilgit-Baltistan.

Considering that the Pakistani Passport is fast becoming an object of loathing, many would gladly accept.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Physical Connectivity

The people of Gilgit-Baltistan are prisoners. They can exit only if Pakistan allows them to exit. Therefore the Skardu-Gilgit Road and the Astore-Gurez Road between India and Pakistan should be kept open, and the people of Gilgit-Baltistan be allowed to come to India.

India should keep the pressure on Pakistan, should Pakistan decide to close these routes. In any confidence building measures discussions between India and Pakistan, if these roads are closed, the opening should be on top of the agenda.

Should these roads be closed, and say only Wagah crossing is open, then India could offer to subsidize the travel expenses of Gilgit-Baltistanis to Wagah, whenever they visit India, naturally if they can produce some travel ticket. But mostly it should be some standard. Some may abuse the facility, but it would tie the Gilgitians and Baltistanis closer to India. The subsidization is an acceptance of Indian guilt that she cannot ensure that its citizens are allowed free movement within their country.

Whenever Gilgitians & Baltistanis come to India, all they would need is to show their Indian ID Card, their entry would be recorded at the border-crossing, and they would be allowed to enter.

Communications Connectivity

Here the Indian engineers would have to come up with some solution. We would want that a Gilgitian or Baltistani should have virtual access to his citizen services, whenever he so desires. He would need to prove that it is him/her through a combination of his smart-card enabled Identity Card and some biometrics tested for liveliness.

India would have to reach these citizens simply over the digital way, as Indians may not be able to visit the area.

Through this device, the Gilgitians & Baltistanis (G&Bians) should be able to vote in state elections, as well as in general elections in India. Using this device, they should be able to connect to social-networking sites, they should be able to browse the Internet, they should be able to make videos and take pictures of the situation in the region, and post them to some regional awareness website, they should be able to place calls to India and among themselves, and they should be able to do all this without the ability of Pakistanis to cut them off from this network or to jam them and deny them service.

As it would be difficult to provide this kind of service through cellular networks, access to satellite communications seem to be the only solution.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Political Integration into India.

IDSA brought out a report in May, 2011 on PoK and advised the GoI:

8. Indian government should provide scholarships to students from PoK and engage the people in PoK including the diaspora especially those based in the West. It may also consider filling up the seats reserved for the people in PoK in the J&K Assembly through representatives from the diaspora.

Suggestions here are only an extrapolations of the above suggestion.

In the J&K Assembly consisting of 111 seats, 25 Seats are allotted to those in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. It includes both "Azad Kashmir" as well as "Gilgit-Baltistan"! At present, Kashmir Valley has 46 Assembly seats, Jammu 37 and Ladakh 4 with total number of elected MLAs at 87. So Jammu & Ladakh together have only 41, less than those from Kashmir Valley.

As far as "Azad Kashmiris" are concerned, we shouldn't really want to have any truck with them. They have only shown imbecility till date, sucking up to Pakistanis, and besides they control only a sliver of area of West Jammu, hardly very strategically significant. If the Azad Kashmiris want to be a part of India, then they will have to bring a lot more to the table than their sorry faces. They would have to bring the whole of area along with them, and return the refugees from the area their lands first. Only then can one talk of integration of Azad Kashmir with India. Till then they are untouchables.

So the 24 seats that are reserved for PoK, they should be divided up into those for Gilgitians and Baltistanis on the one hand, and the Hindu and Sikh refugees from "Azad Kashmir" living in India, as representatives of all "Azad Kashmiris" who could not be present to avail of their seats.

With the 24 Seats for Gilgitians & Baltistanis and Hindus from "Azad Kashmir", 37 Seats from Jammu, and 4 Seats from Ladakh, there would be 65 non-Kashmiri Seats in the Assembly, just 9 short of a two-thirds majority required to change the J&K Constitution. With the help of Gujjars and other pro-Indian elements from Kashmir, it would become possible to change the J&K Constitution even, doing away with Article 370 etc, regardless of what the Kashmiris say.

Using their chip-enhanced Indian ID Card and their "communications device", Gilgitians and Baltistanis in J&K should be able to vote in J&K elections virtually, without needing to come to India for that. Thus they can choose their candidates.

As for their candidates, they would of course be on the ground in Gilgit-Baltistan itself, albeit against the wishes of Pakistanis, or at least their party workers will be there. Many can do campaigning over the Internet itself, or using SMS service or just calling people up.

Should Pakistan try to arrest these candidates or otherwise come down heavily on the people for participating in the elections, it can provide India a tripwire to declare war on Pakistan, especially as Pakistan would make really bad press internationally for curbing the democratic rights of the people.

Moreover Pakistan should be kept completely under world glare in Gilgit-Baltistan. Each human-rights abuse especially at the time of elections to the J&K Assembly or to the Lok Sabha should be highlighted with interviews, videos, etc being broadcasted on all Indian media. Should India increase the tensions, Western media too would pick up these human-rights abuses by Pakistanis on Gilgitians and Baltistanis.

So it should be possible to hold elections in Gilgit-Baltistan for J&K Assembly, Lok Sabha and even local elections.

Using their representatives in J&K Assembly and Lok Sabha, Gilgitians and Baltistanis can highlight how they are being treated under Pakistani Occupation.

Election Commission of India would be responsible to ensure that the elections are free and fair.

Empowering Gilgitians and Baltistanis is our ticket out of the corner in which the Kashmiris have forced us.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Educational Integration into India.

IDSA brought out a report in May, 2011 on PoK and advised the GoI:

8. Indian government should provide scholarships to students from PoK and engage the people in PoK including the diaspora especially those based in the West. It may also consider filling up the seats reserved for the people in PoK in the J&K Assembly through representatives from the diaspora.

Suggestions here are only an extrapolations of the above suggestion.

Hardly any resources are being allocated to the Gilgitians and Baltistanis by the Pakistanis for their development. This leaves a huge hold for India to fill. India should be happy to be able to fulfill this responsibility.

But we have to go a lot further than what IDSA is suggesting. We should be thinking of financing the setting up of schools in Gilgit-Baltistan affiliated to Indian system of education. Considering that Gilgitians are Ismailis, they would be more open to education anyway. India should give ample financing to responsible personalities from the area for setting up these schools. Of course India should also demand accountability.

But before we can go there, India needs to let many Gilgitians and Baltistanis come to India for training as educators, as teachers, as professionals, as managers. This is program worth funding. After their 3 years course, these G&Bians would return to Gilgit-Baltistan and be responsible for teaching the next generations of Gilgitians and Baltistanis, who should learn to feel Indian as well and start looking at the world through Indian eyes.

Once these new batches come from these schools India can expand the number of seats available in India reserved for people from the area.

In fact, Gilgit-Baltistan would be an ideal place to test a School-Tablet-Computer, over which they can access all the course material used in India for the purpose.

Through the Tablet, the school students can even sit for their exams, which would be corrected in India. These Tablets would need to be smuggled into Gilgit-Baltistan just like their communication devices.

Now the Pakistanis are not going to cooperate, so again there should be a big spotlight on everything Pakistan does in Gilgit-Baltistan and should these activities grow too much, Pakistan should be afraid that it would give India a reason to invade, nee liberate Gilgit-Baltistan. India could even demand that UN send a team to look into all of these human-rights violations. (yeah, I know!!!)

The more Gilgitians and Baltistanis are empowered through education, the less they would be willing to accept Pakistani Wahhabis and Pathans taking over their place.

Broadcasting in local languages

Another aspect that needs to be emphasized in this regard is that Indian media channels - Doordarshan, All India Radio, etc. all need to have speakers of the languages spoken in Balwaristan - Shina, Balti dialect of Ladakhi, Wakhi, Khowar, Burushaski, Domaaki, and other languages spoken in the wider region, say Chitral, Badakhshan like Kalasha-mun, Palula, Dameli, Gawar-Bati, Nuristani, Yidgha, Gujar, Shughni, Munji, Ishkashimi, Kyrgyz, Tajik, Persian, Pashto and Urdu!

India should be setting up high frequency television and radio reception transmitters all along the LoC, and even in Afghanistan and broadcasting programs in various languages. India should be doing voice overs in these languages of most of the more famous radio and TV programs from India, and then broadcasting them there. India should also take the initiative in financing the production of various programs in these native languages. Or India can have a News and Music service in these languages.

We should not underestimate the need to pull these people over to our side. China is already busy.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Liberation of Gilgit-Baltistan

Indian efforts to give Gilgitians and Baltistanis and other pre-1947 minorities in Balwaristan,

• representation in J&K Assembly as well as in Lok Sabha,
• to provide them with Education on both sides of the border on par with Indians,
• to provide them with world class Health Facilities on the Indian side of the border
• to empower them through technology, through the ability to communicate, despite Pakistani curbs.
• to provide them with the Indian Identity, Identity Card and Passport, giving them the international prestige accorded to a citizen of a rising power,
• to provide them with a platform, to express their views, requirements, complaints and anguish,

would all contribute to binding the people of Gilgit-Baltistan to an Indian identity and world-view.

Basically after that it becomes a case where sets up a tripwire for Pakistan, should it try to subjugate the people of Gilgit-Baltistan. Anything they do, it can set off a war between India and Pakistan, where the people of Gilgit-Baltistan are with India, and India can pull world-opinion as well on her side.

Today India's case is that, de-jure India has claims over Gilgit-Baltistan but de-facto we don't have any control over them. Then it becomes the other way round, a case of India formalizing what it already has de-facto - the loyalty of Gilgitians and Baltistanis, through a liberation of their territory.

In fact, India can after some time increase the number of tripwires.

Arming our Citizens in Gilgit-Baltistan

Every young man, when he touches 18 in Gilgit-Baltistan should be allowed to do military training in India. They come over the border and are given intensive military training for one and a half years. Then they can go back, or they can enter Indian Military, perhaps in some Balwaristan Regiment. During this time, they get paid.

When they return to Gilgit-Baltistan, they form defense-paramilitaries to protect themselves basically, and to protect their rights. India should also provide them with arms and equipment.

They should not indulge in any terrorism, or even provoking the Pakistanis, but they should also not act as pushovers. They should also not become active in proper Pakistan, lest they be accused of terrorism.

Just show of confidence and strength on their part, would be enough to trigger some exchange with Pakistanis or their chamchas in the region. Should this happen once too often, it would provide India with an excuse to send in our troops, and liberate Balwaristan.

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Countering the 'Azadi' Propaganda

India has been able to manage Kashmir for the last 63 years, not really with excellent grades, but still we are still standing. With Pakistan going down the drain, responsible Kashmiris, would look elsewhere for their peace than in slogans of 'Azadi'. But the Wahhabis would still keep the temperature high in Kashmir Valley, and as long as Pakistan lives, the 'Azadi Movement' lives. And as we know everybody from Ummah, West and China would jump on the bandwagon and shove their unsheathed knives into India's back.

So what we need is a separate Kashmir Liberation Movement, also led by Muslims, which can drown out the narrative of the 'Azadi Movement' from Kashmir Valley. It needs to be led by Muslims, because if it is led by some other group like West Jammu refugees, Kashmiri Pundit refugees, Ladakhis, or any other group, it would not even register in the world media. So it needs to be Muslims.

The point is that if there is some disturbance in Kashmir Valley, Pakistanis start shouting about India's human rights abuses, blah, blah, but they can't do anything more than that. When Gilgit-Baltistan becomes besieged by Pakistanis, they should have to worry that India would simply walk in and liberate her citizens. As such the chances of war would be much higher due to the tripwires in Gilgit-Baltistan, so the area would automatically get more attention, including from the Western media. And that is good. Gilgit-Baltistan would overshadow Kashmir Valley. And for the liberals of this world, who love to espouse Muslim causes, they would be forced to change their affiliation to the cause of basic democratic rights of occupied people of Gilgit-Baltistan.

When 3 regions of United J&K - Gilgit-Baltistan, Jammu and Ladakh start speaking out in favor of India, it would quell the voices coming from Kashmir Valley. Even in the J&K Assembly, Kashmir Valley would lose its stranglehold on power.

Last but not least, it is important to get rid of Article 370.

Repeating from an earlier post,
With the 24 Seats for Gilgitians & Baltistanis and Hindus from "Azad Kashmir", 37 Seats from Jammu, and 4 Seats from Ladakh, there would be 65 non-Kashmiri Seats in the Assembly, just 9 short of a two-thirds majority required to change the J&K Constitution. With the help of Gujjars and other pro-Indian elements from Kashmir, it would become possible to change the J&K Constitution even, doing away with Article 370 etc, regardless of what the Kashmiris say.

With other Indians moving in into J&K, Kashmir Valley would again become Indic!

[RajeshA]

Solving Pakistan: Solution 9

Balwaristan Integration

Unraveling Pakistan

IDSA brought out a report in May, 2011 on PoK and advised the GoI:

PoK has a lot of strategic significance for India: it is the gateway to Central Asia through the Wakhan Corridor and at the same time it has rich water resources. Thus, there is greater need for India to
take a more proactive approach on PoK, not only because it is a part of its territory but because of the high strategic stakes.

Integrating Balwaristan into India is the absolute crucial requirement to unravel Pakistan. As long as Pakjab has a direct route via land and air to China, China would ensure that next door to India, there would always be a irredentist power capable and willing to do China's bidding and keeping India down.

Just because Pakistan in its current form is unraveling, it does not mean, that Pakjab or Pakjabi Army is also ready to pack up and ride into the sunset. The arc of Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakjab, and Sindh would continue to keep India down captive in the Indian Subcontinent. If we want to break free, both Gilgit-Baltistan and Sindh would have to be freed. Whereas with Sindh it can even be easier, as a natural separation between Pakjab and Sindh can be triggered, the case with Gilgit-Baltistan is different because the Chinese would simply takeover the region and keep their connection to Pakjab secured.

India cannot let that happen. Gilgit-Baltistan should become India's bridge to Central Asia and not China's bridge to Arabian Sea!

[ramana]

X-posted from TSP thread.

Sum posted....

Orbat concludes the same as BRF, that TSP is in for big trouble:

# The USA has few cards in Afghanistan. The Pakistanis/ISI are not the masters of Afghanistan's destiny, although one may state that the Taliban in Afghanistan south of line Wardak-Shindand are Pakistan dependent as are near-Pakistani proxies.

# Kunnar, Laghman, Nuristan is a different game. It is Al Qaeda plus a combination of anti Pakistan Taliban groups with a heavy mixture of Swat. Dir, Bajaur, and Mohmand Talibans.

# The north is to a large extent pro Russian groups controlled with exception of pockets of Taliban in Baghlan and Kunduz. The Northern Alliance, Dostum and some other commanders will definitely look towards Russia, India and Iran rather than Pakistan.

# A new Northern Alliance is already being created with possible aerial fire support at Kulyab, Dehdadi, Kunduz and Herat Airfields. Russia will not allow the Taliban to have a clean run north of Hindu Kush; neither would Iran and India

# In all probability the Taliban will have a clean run till line Kabul-Shindand but no further north.

# US has already abandoned large parts of Kunnar, Laghman, and Nuristan where the anti Pakistan Taliban are based.

# Note that 80 % of Taliban out of which 90 % are from Afghanistan regard Pakistan as a friend. There is no Pakistani regular army all along the 1500 Km stretch of Afghan border from Zhob to Taftan which is freely used for logistics by the 90 % of Taliban who are against USA and already pro Pakistan.

# The result will be an Afghanistan again divided in north and south regardless of Pakistan or USA liking it.

# That Pakistan has been using Pashtuns as its pawns in its wars is now even very clear to the Pashtuns. The greatest beneficiary of money from Afghan wars has been the North Punjab.

# My fear is that Taliban backlash against Pakistan will be some kind of subconscious Pashtun backlash against Pakistan where Pashtuns will use religion to justify rebellion and even taking over Pakistan or some kind of secession. Here they would be aided by a simultaneous Baloch war of secession and a Punjab and Sindh paralyzed by inflation and unemployment.

# Pakistan is a suicide bombers factory. India may not be ideal but at least a young man can hope something in India but not in Pakistan which is a bastion of corruption, nepotism and red tapism. Inflation, poverty and despondency makes Pakistanis kill themselves or aspiring to kill some one, if not physically then spiritually and morally.

# A military coup in Pakistan can also not be ruled out. It has not succeeded before but it may next time.

# A serious strategic imbalance of Pakistan is that all institutions have lost their coercive value. This includes the military, the ISI and everybody who once mattered.

# The majority in Pakistan may be moderate but the extremists are the best organized and most ready to die. So Pakistan may be the worst nightmare of this world in next five to ten years.

# The Pakistani military and intelligence and its security apparatus is just not capable of containing extremism. What can the omnipotent USA do about it if they cannot manage to make an Frontier Corps training centre worth 31 Million USD at Tank which was long planned, or bring 1000-MW electricity to Pakistan because of the closing down of the CASA 1000 project.

# An Indo Pak showdown with nuclear weapons may become a reality within next five years.

# With water resources decreasing and population rising an Indo-Pak conflict is a matter of few years unless Pakistan breaks down from within, not into Balkanization, but into a constant civil war bordering near breakdown.

# The militarization of the Indo-Pak has to see a showdown unless one party breaks down without a war. Pakistan seems more likely and the last resort may be a nuclear exchange or a cold start war with India which further weakens Pakistan.

# The US would not be able to make a dent with India over Pakistan as Pakistan is a solid Chinese concubine although its US relationship is a more temporary and fluctuating Mutaah or Sigheh (Temporary Marriage).

[ramana]

Need to digest the many facts and conclusions in Orbat's report.

The big picture for me is Balkanisation that leaves the Pakjab Army intact will not lead to peace on Indian sub-continent. The Pakjab Army has to be right sized. So a FSU type collapse and restructuring will not happen.
Most likely a civil war with Baloch and Pakiban warring with Pakjab is the future outcome based on present day facts.

I prefer to use Pakiban to describe the Pakistani Pathans of the K-P province who are fighting the TSPA. Calling them Taliban leads to confusion in analysis.


It is still possible that TSP civil society of which the TSPA is part of and holds hostage might decide for human dignity and chuck the sytem. But not possible as long as TSPA has US, KSA and PRC support for its sustenenance.

Of the three, KSA is the most amenable to see the descent of Pakistan and its fallout on Middle East due to the Arab spring.

[shyamd]

^^ Orbat report was by a retired Major Amin.

KSA needs TSPA more than ever due to Iran. The more Pak becomes unstable, the more funds it will attract I think. TSP is a dead state - the virus is too far spread, thanks in part due to TSPA thinking they are too clever by half and maintaining non state actors to be used against India or Iran, now these groups are incredibly unstable and un-trustworthy and is giving the TSPA a beating.

The question now is what to do? The GoI wants a stable Pak (because we don't want to go in and sort out the mess and also foot the bill) - but whats the solution towards extremism? Let it happen and hope it will die off/close your eyes? Some voices see no benefit in us actually intervening to prevent extremists taking over, because either way TSPA/GoP is going to hate us and use terror against us.

KSA Navy boys were in Karachi inspecting the F-22Ps.

[ramana]

My bad. I corrected the post.

Well go back to the rightly guided Caliphs. How did they die off? And with them the first Arab Spring.

[ramana]

Similar post about descent of TSP:

TSP faces Bangladesh moment

20 June 2011: The Pakistan military is at war with itself and is losing the public-opinion battle as well. This will most likely impact India unless it is on absolute guard. And its more immediate casualty will be the army chief, Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

This writer does not expect the forthcoming Indo-Pak foreign secretaries' talks to succeed beyond a bland concluding joint statement, if at all. The Indo-Pak naval incident and the Pakistani firing on the Jammu and Kashmir border foretell rising tensions between the two countries which will require India to exercise utmost restraint.

It is scarcely concealed that the Pakistan army is India-centric. Despite facing existential threats from the Al-Qaeda/ Pakistani Taliban, General Kayani has periodically finger-pointed India as Pakistan's prime enemy. Partly for his rabidity, Kayani won a three-year service extension with decisive assistance from the United States.

But Kayani finds himself at the centre of crisis today as did several previous Pakistani army chiefs. All his fabled influence with the United States and his personal friendship with the US chairman of joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, could not stave off the American raid that killed Osama Bin Laden.

With that raid, Kayani lost face. The ISI chief, Lieutenant-General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, became a national embarrassment. And as institutions, the Pakistan army and air force were thoroughly exposed as being incapable of protecting Pakistani interests.

The Pakistan army somehow escaped flak for the October 2009 attack on its heavily-guarded Rawalpindi headquarters. No military remains awesome/ prestigious whose headquarters is stormed by terrorists who hold senior officers hostage and have the run of the place for twenty-two hours.

But the military finally met its come-uppance with the Mehran base attack, in which terrorists astonishingly destroyed two naval Orions. Ignominiously for the armed forces, at least two of the six attacking terrorists escaped, leaving a dozen or more navy commandoes dead.

What is the Pakistan military to do when its own allies (the US on one hand, and the Al-Qaeda/ Taliban on the other) turn hostile? But that is the result of the curious and perhaps uniquely three-sided war being fought amongst the US, Pakistan and the FATA terrorists.

The US attacks the terrorists and the Pakistani interests involved with the terrorists. In revenge, Pakistan and the terrorists attack US interests. And often, the terrorists attack Pakistan to avenge US attacks. And so it goes on.

This would perhaps have gone on if the US had not assassinated Bin Laden in Abbottabad. With the Abbottabad raid, the Pakistan military lost standing internally with its soldiers and officers and externally with the people.

There was no convenient way to pass the blame on to the civilian leadership, although it was initially tried. Asif Ali Zardari's government played safe and smart by appearing supine and malleable, giving no opportunity to the Pakistan military to take the offensive.

And with the elected government cleverly stepping out of the frame, the Pakistan military has been isolated to face the wrath of Pakistani public opinion, which has worsened after the Mehran attack.

Attempts to implicate India in the attacks have failed. And the ISI's scheme to silence the Pakistan media's damaging investigation of the Mehran attack through killing, torture and intimidation has boomeranged.

In a limited sense, this is the Pakistan military's post-Bangladesh War moment, without a lost conflict. Every Pakistani dictator who flunked a war with India faced this moment, usually resulting in ouster.

Kayani faces such a moment, and he is accused of squandering Pakistan's pride. His friendship with the Americans, real or posed, is coming to haunt him. His three-year extension that skewed the careers of scores of Pakistani brass has exacerbated the anger against him.

In light of this, and amidst peaking outrage within the Pakistan military apropos collaborating with the US against the Al-Qaeda and Taliban (at best half-hearted), there is speculation of a colonel's coup. This may yet happen.

But it is more likely that Kayani shortly will be eased out. In this instant of ferment and frenzy within the Pakistan military, something must give. The sidelining of Pasha may not be enough. This writer would bet on Kayani being the principal casualty.

Nothing succeeds like success. Kayani has proved an all-round failure.

But this is a short-term possibility. In the long-term, the Pakistan military would want speedily to return to India-centricity, and it would need to ride Pakistani public opinion to get there.

Without India-centricity, the Pakistan military loses its raison-detre, and indeed all the arguments for possessing and controlling the deterrent. The Pakistan provoked naval incident against India and the renewed firing on the J and K border point to attempts to raise the bogie of an Indian threat to win back Pakistani public opinion.

Hence the cautionary advice in the beginning of this piece for India to be on guard and to exercise restraint.

In the present, Pakistan cannot afford to be seen as accommodative of India, which is why the foreign secretaries' talks will fail. Trapped on all sides, the Pakistan military will attempt to deflect attention by ratcheting up tensions and hostilities against India.

Pakistan is wired for self-destruction, and India has to remain insulated from this. Battening down the hatches is the best option in the circumstances, which excludes both swaggering bravado and expansively friendly gestures.

I submit MMS is doing a good job of supineness to trap the kabila guards into showing their uselessness to the kabila residents.

This the "no-war" war option.

[ramana]

GP's take:

http://www.dailypioneer.com/347646/Isla ... istan.html

Islamist Army of Pakistan
June 22, 2011 11:01:24 PM

G Parthasarathy

Gen Zia planted the poison seed, the tree is now bearing toxic fruit. The Army and the ISI will ensure that Pakistan never gives up terrorism as state policy.

While promoting terrorism abroad has been the trademark of Pakistan’s military establishment, new skeletons are tumbling out of the ISI’s cupboard, revealing the horrors perpetrated by its torture and assassination networks within the country. The ‘tell-all’ book titled Inside Al Qaeda and the Taliban: Beyond Bin Laden and 9/11, written by journalist Syed Saleem Shahzad, widely believed (even within Pakistan) to have been bumped off by the ISI, has been banned in that country.

Shahzad made some startling revelations to an American television network virtually hours before he was abducted. He revealed that even before the 9/11 terrorist strikes, there were formal agreements between the ISI on the one hand and the Taliban and Al Qaeda on the other. Moreover, just after 9/11, the then Director-General of the ISI, Lieutenant General Mehmood Ahmed, assured both Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden in Kandahar that Pakistan would neither mount operations against their organisations nor would it arrest them.

Given these assurances, it is not surprising that Mullah Omar, Osama bin Laden and their supporters and armed cadre crossed the Durand Line and were given haven in Pakistan. Some second ranking Al Qaeda leaders were, however, targeted when they were suspected of involvement in attempts to assassinate General Pervez Musharraf in December 2003. Shahzad asserts that the “Pakistani Army has always been closely allied with Islamist forces”, adding that mutinies from within the Army’s ranks were always possible in the event of major operations in future against Al Qaeda and Taliban sanctuaries.

{Explains the PNS Mehran raid as a consequence of Abortabad raid}


While the Islamist propensities of significant sections the Pakistani Army establishment are well known, what is now emerging is that support for Islamic extremism is also significantly prevalent in the Pakistani Air Force and Navy. The recent attack on the Mehran naval base in Karachi, during which US-supplied reconnaissance aircraft were destroyed, has revealed the extent to which radical Islamist elements have infiltrated the Pakistani Navy.

Even more widespread has been the infiltration of radical Islamist elements into the Pakistani Air Force, including into the Chaklala air base near Rawalpindi where US-supplied transport aircraft are based. Airmen from this base were involved in an attempt to assassinate Gen Musharraf in 2003. The links of the Pakistani Air Force with Al Qaeda go back to 1996 when a senior PAF officer, Mushaf Al Mir, known to be close to Islamist elements in the ISI, entered into a pact with Al Qaeda leader Abu Zubayada, promising the supply of arms.

Interestingly, while elements from Saudi Arabia were evidently supportive of this deal, Mushaf Ali Mir, who later became the chief of Pakistan’s Air Force, died in a mysterious air crash while on official duty in a PAF aircraft on February 20, 2003. Three Saudi Princes associated with Air Chief Marshal Mir’s 1996 deal with Al Qaeda died in similarly mysterious circumstances shortly thereafter. Interestingly, the mysterious deaths of Mir and the Saudi Princes occurred after both Gen Musharraf and the Saudi monarchy had become averse to Al Qaeda influence in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

The malaise of Islamic radicalism has also spread to Pakistan’s nuclear establishment. AQ Khan, infamous for his rabid references to “Hindu treachery”, was a major player in moves to transfer nuclear weapons capabilities to Iran, Saudi Arabia and Libya. Bhutto himself described Pakistan’s quest for nuclear weapons as his country’s contribution to “Islamic civilisation”. These sentiments are shared by senior Pakistani nuclear scientists like Sultan Bashiruddin Mehmood who, along with his colleague Abdul Majeed, was detained shortly after the terrorist strikes of 9/11 for helping Al Qaeda to obtain nuclear and biological weapons capabilities.

Mehmood openly voiced support for the Taliban and publicly advocated transfer of nuclear weapons to the whole ummah (Muslim community worldwide). Two other Pakistani scientists, Suleiman Asad and Al Mukhtar, wanted for questioning about suspected links with Osama bin Laden, disappeared in Myanmar. The million dollar question is: Did they disappear into the territory of Pakistan’s ‘all-weather friend’ and partner in proliferation, China? The malaise of Islamic radicalism runs deep across Pakistan’s entire security establishment — civilian and military.

The roots of this radicalisation can be traced back to the days when the US and other Western countries backed Pakistani military dictator General Zia-ul-Haq to the hilt. It was Gen Zia who ushered in a new era of Islamisation, bigotry and blasphemy laws targeting minorities, together with nurturing radical, armed Islamic groups, bent on waging jihad across the world. Officers recruited in his era are today three-star Generals and the Army is largely motivated by the ideology of the “Quranic Concept of War” articulated by his protégé Brigadier (later Major General) SK Malik. Describing anyone who stands in the way of jihad as an “aggressor”, he held that “the aggressor is always met and destroyed in his own country”.

Maj Gen Malik also had a unique view of the concept of ‘terror’. According to him, “Terror struck into the heart of the enemy is not only a means. It is an end in itself. Once a condition of terror into the opponent’s heart is obtained, hardly anything is left to be achieved. Terror is not a means of imposing a decision upon the enemy, it is the decision we wish to impose on him. It is a point where the means and end merge”. This is precisely what was sought to be ‘imposed’ on the ill-fated people killed in Mumbai on 26/11.

Despite evidence that the ISI recently passed on operational intelligence received from the CIA to terrorist groups, both the US and the UK are making conscious efforts to gloss over the ISI-terrorist nexus. The British are realising that in their desire to be pro-active across the world as America’s most “loyal ally”, they have been punching above their weight. Moreover, the greatest threat to internal security in the UK comes from nationals of Pakistani origin, motivated and trained in terrorist safe havens in Pakistan. Britain seeks to appease Pakistan to facilitate an early withdrawal from Afghanistan and secure ISI cooperation for internal security.

The Americans evidently believe that Pakistan has to be kept in reasonably good humour, at least for the present, to achieve larger strategic objectives. In these circumstances, India has to shed illusions that the Pakistani military establishment can be persuaded to discard the use of terrorism as an instrument of state policy by sweet words and ‘composite dialogue’.

For TSP, terror is another instrument of the state. Its perpetrators are extensions of state armed services. The problem is the victims treat terror as a crime and not an act of war. And the sponsors are selective about TSP use of terror.

The jihadification of Fizzleya and P(irate) Navy are due to the primacy of the TSPA in the services. In order to get their say both these services are getting ultra jihadified. Case of dark green even in small numbers punches higher.

[svinayak]

But Kayani finds himself at the centre of crisis today as did several previous Pakistani army chiefs. All his fabled influence with the United States and his personal friendship with the US chairman of joint chiefs of staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, could not stave off the American raid that killed Osama Bin Laden.

With that raid, Kayani lost face. The ISI chief, Lieutenant-General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, became a national embarrassment. And as institutions, the Pakistan army and air force were thoroughly exposed as being incapable of protecting Pakistani interests.

Pakistan had two choices.
It could have said that Pakistan did help US in capturing bin laden or It could pretend that US never told them that raid will occur in the night.

Kiyano took his chance

[A_Gupta]

Looking for escape routes:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/24/escape-route.html

[RajeshA]

Looking for escape routes:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/24/escape-route.html

A Comment:

“Pakistan Zindabad ya Pakistan sey Zinda Bhaag?”

[Manish_Sharma]

[*] to provide them with the Indian Identity, Identity Card and Passport, giving them the international prestige accorded to a citizen of a rising power.

This is the most dangerous suggestion to make.

Any such move would give ISI/Army to send in their own agents through this channel.

Last time we tried it wrt bangladesh, we got our own assam and other parts flooded with their population, even upto now we are suffering from it. I'd rather have bangladesh also behaving like porkis so at least India would be forced to seal the borders with them too. In fact it is bangladesh which is harming India like a parasite not porkistan. Just by flooding India with their exploding population.

Regarding porkistan India should not do anything at all overtly or covertly. Just break all diplomatic and other samjhauta connections. Seal the borders as much as possible. And watch tamasha, that porkistan is going to implode it is a certainety. But the population in india, porkistan and bangladesh that wanted an Islamic nation are not ready to accept the defeat of the "idea of islamic state", even if porkistan fails they'll blame it on India, US, their own corrupt leaders/army.

I dread the day when porkistan implodes and India opens its borders to it. What we can do is break off all connections, and stand aloof wrt porki situation, and not only stand aloof we should advertise our aloofness bigtime, so atleast some people can see clearly that "idea itself was doomed to fail from the first day" and no one else is responsible for it.

Now we say alert and in case a dying state of porkistan starts a nuke war in desperation then we should put them out of their misery by hitting their most populace centers with every radioactive thing we got reliving as much dharti ka bojh as possible.

[Manish_Sharma]

Now before the jirga starts accusing me of being an evil Hindu baniya, I'd like to say in my defense, that this is going to happen regardless of whether anybody reads these lines or not!

The Insecurity
Every Pakistani man with a daughter would be a man who would be very very afraid. Considering that the export of girls would already have caused a huge dearth of women in Pakistan, and that the state system of protection would have collapsed, the man should be having every reason to be afraid.

So the man would be very keen on marrying off the girl as soon as possible....................

Disastrous for hindus, when nargis wedded hindu sunil dutt nobody thought their son brought up in "secular glitzy cineworld" would become friend of mafia and terrorists. Not just friend but even help them by hiding ak 56 and grenades for them. No whenever a couple doesn't matter man is hindu and woman muslim or vice versa, the child would go to muslim side 100%.

Maybe a late bloomer like mahesh bhatt with muslim mother again living in upper rich mumbai life, being with modern gurus like Osho and UG still in his late age finds peace in porkistan, kashmir and headly.

So the result would be that india which is going to be islamic country in 100-120 years will become so in 60 only.

[Prem]

In not so olden days when some one became Khalsa he was sometime made to eat beef and pork to remove his past prejudice about diet. Any kid born out of Kharidi Joru from Poakland can be made through similar dietary experience to be brought up with enlightened moderation.

[chetak]

In not so olden days when some one became Khalsa he was sometime made to eat beef and pork to remove his past prejudice about diet. Any kid born out of Kharidi Joru from Poakland can be made through similar dietary experience to be brought up with enlightened moderation.

And how do you propose to stick back certain removed pieces??

The dutt kid was a openly raving fundo in in his earlier avatar.

Wised up after he realized that no one could protect him on his chosen rotten path. They had to go publicly beggng bowl in hand to bal thakeray to save his backside from tender ministrations in arthur road jail.

He is just the same even now but has learned the hard way to keep his fundo views under firm wraps

[Prem]

[And how do you propose to stick back certain removed pieces??

Jorus and new Poakus wont have this issue at all.They revert back to become Indic amd normal human beings.

[RajeshA]

Manish_Sharma ji,

thanks for your interest.

Any such move would give ISI/Army to send in their own agents through this channel.

The proposal is meant for a scenario after Pakistan has already fragmented and failed, when inflation becomes rampant and there is hardly anything called Pakistani government. It will be open season for the various factions in Pakistan. This scenario is a direct result of economic failure in Pakistan, which is very probable.

Disastrous for hindus, when nargis wedded hindu sunil dutt nobody thought their son brought up in "secular glitzy cineworld" would become friend of mafia and terrorists. Not just friend but even help them by hiding ak 56 and grenades for them. No whenever a couple doesn't matter man is hindu and woman muslim or vice versa, the child would go to muslim side 100%.

Secondly upto 96% of Pakeezahs we talk about would be coming from the lower layers of Pakistani society, and not from the die-hard Pakistaniyat layer of RAPE, the Well-Off and the Middle-Income Group.

So whereas one would expect, the ones from RAPE, Well-Off and the Middle-Income Group to try to introduce their Pakistaniyat-Venom into the Indian society, one shouldn't be expecting that from the 96% of Low-Income Group and Poor Pakeezahs. In the Low-Income Indians, men are still men!!! , and not like Dutt and Bhatt sahibs.

So yes, over the other 4% we will have to keep an eye!

Regarding porkistan India should not do anything at all overtly or covertly. Just break all diplomatic and other samjhauta connections. Seal the borders as much as possible. And watch tamasha, that porkistan is going to implode it is a certainety.

One can't have the whole building on fire, and hope that one's apartment would escape the inferno! We should be pro-active, and not huddle ourselves under a blanket. Why this fear of Islam, of Pakistan? Let's go in and deal with it! Why do we give the Pakis more credit for shrewdness than we give ourselves! Are we all too stupid to deal with Pakistan?!

We will hunt the pig, take the pig by its balls and then roast it!

The only thing unresolved is how to hunt the pig!

[Vikas]

In not so olden days when some one became Khalsa he was sometime made to eat beef and pork to remove his past prejudice about diet. Any kid born out of Kharidi Joru from Poakland can be made through similar dietary experience to be brought up with enlightened moderation.

Khalsa eating beef Prem Ji...Seriously You sure about this fact ?
I believe all the 10 Gurus were committed to protection of cows..

[Airavat]

Flood victims of Southern Punjab protest

The protesters gathered in Abadpur on Saturday morning and protested against the inordinate delays in the construction and repairs of dykes, as well as encroachments on waterways. “Many landlords are redirecting water to their fields regardless of how it will affect us,” said Shakri resident Arshad. The flood victims said that a series of sugar farms had been constructed on thousands of acres of land near the riverbeds without any authorization.

District officials in Rajanpur have confirmed that there are over ten breaches in dykes from Ehsanpur to Rajanpur Klan. “People are not paying any attention to the gravity of this situation. It could mean a death sentence for thousands if we have floods again this year,” said Ehsanpur resident Kareemullah.

[Prem]

Khalsa eating beef Prem Ji...Seriously You sure about this fact ?
I believe all the 10 Gurus were committed to protection of cows..

It was done not as routine but in few suspected cases to root out certain elements.

[ramana]

A new book
Making sense of Pakistan, Farzana Shaikh

Columbia Uty Press.

1. Why Pakistan?: History and Ideology
Community
Nation
Power
2. Who is a Pakistani?: Culture and Identity
Migrants and Natives
Sectarian myths and the politics of exclusion
Non-Muslims and the mirage of citizenship
3. The Burden of Islam: The Sacralization of Politics
Holy battles
In the name of Islam
The lure of Shariatization
4. The Dilemmas of Development: The Uncertainties of Change
Free and Unequal
Culture of Corruption
The Puritan Backlash
5. Between Crescent and Sword: Professionalizing Jihad
Forging an Islamic army
Jihadis and juntas
The wages of sin
6. Demons from Abroad: Enemies and Allies
Standing up to India
America’s sullen mistress
Taking charge of Afghanistan
Epilogue

[Narad]

Looking for escape routes:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/24/escape-route.html

Finally some seeds of self realisation begining to germinate within pakis about their dismayal state of existence, ie Dhobi ka Kutta Na Ghar Ka Na Ghat Ka.

[Prem]

Looking for escape routes:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/24/escape-route.html

Finally some seeds of self realisation begining to germinate within pakis about their dismayal state of existence, ie Dhobi ka Kutta Na Ghar Ka Na Ghat Ka.

One thing about regular dogs, they are loyal animals and love their master. Poakkuttas have no such quality. Ironical that if not india, they will be swept away/drown in Indian ocean. In the end Maut will use "indian"tools onlee to silence these Khar and Dushan Poaks.
Wisdom Astra in defeating Khar and Dushan. Similarity with current Poak Samasya.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyGVFYsNu1o

[rajanb]

Looking for escape routes:
http://www.dawn.com/2011/06/24/escape-route.html

Finally some seeds of self realisation begining to germinate within pakis about their dismayal state of existence, ie Dhobi ka Kutta Na Ghar Ka Na Ghat Ka.

Since there are whispers that the Somalian pirates are being assisted by militant Paki outfits (Somali pirates caught with Paki arms), the ideal escape route could be to Somalia?