The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

[Vikas]

Is there a magic wand that will be waived once India becomes a middle Income country and all our ills will be taken care of. The odds of we never becoming middle income country due to all pervading corruption, Paki terrorism, lack of will on part of GoI to implement law etc. probably will become higher as we cross one bridge from other.
Anyways how is taking action against corruption going to harm GDP and India's rise. Should not logically it be other way around ?

[Arjun]

Despite the efforts of those trumpeting India as the largest democracy in the world, the fact of the matter is other than for empty sloganeering there is no real cause of pride for most thinking Indians in either Indian governance or Indian democracy. I have given some thought to the most critical items that are required to be addressed in order for this pride to be regained. The five areas are-

1.Reducing Corruption and Black Money - I would not have listed India as among the relatively more corrupt countries, say about a year back. But the media onslaught over the last year has been quite revealing. I do think Lokpal as a solution is a good concept - provided the two issues of independence of the Lokpal & process of selection are addressed adequately. Systemic reform to reduce governmental discretion and enhance transparency would also be key.

2. Electoral reform. I will just quote from Muppalla's excellent post on this matter.

Fundamentally India's democracy is being ruled not by a majority. The guy who is winning gets less that 50% of votes polled. Entire strategy these days is to find a way to win with just 15% of votes polled. Create a run off election between the top two candidates to get the winner. This way one will force a real winner. Otherwise the system is open to manipulation by freebies and divisions by money power. Again no BS with complicated preferential voting systems followed by some island countries with less than a thousand people as population. Just keep conducting two rounds of election and that will wear out the current divide and rule strategy. This will force the parties to strategize on inclusiveness rather than strategies of dividing the middle classes on caste/religion while hoarding the poor by using bribes+freebies to the booths with a bonus of voting fraud at selected booths.

3. Elimination of Dynastycism from Indian politics. This can be construed as part of electoral reform, but given the importance I would treat this separately as a primary issue to be addressed

4. Enforcement of a 'muscular' liberalism that safeguards the country's traditional liberal values, and counters the spread of exclusivist ideologies.

5. Judicial reform...Justice delayed is justice denied. Ergo - India is not providing justice today to the vast majority of its citizens.

Nothing new necessarily in the points above, intent is to be on the same page with regard to prioritization of the most critical issues that need to be addressed from a standpoint of basic governance.

[harbans]

Vikas Ji, few points here in perspective.

1. Our growth started picking up once the process of reform and dismantling the License Raj started. The more the dismantling and transparency the growth story went up. The more the growth and thus GDP, results in lesser corruption. I only pointed out the correlation between corruption and Per cap GDP in the links.

2. Suppose the LPB does'nt happen. We continue with the normal pace of push/ reform, there is no anti-corruption movement as is now. India will still grow around 8-9%. With focus on removing corruption and taking steps to reduce discretionary powers, increase in transparency we will grow around 11%. That amounts to arriving around a 4000 USD per cap income plus or minus 2 or 3 years.

3. At that level a lower level GOI official would'nt be as tempted to take a bribe as one today. It's not a magic wand. But in countries that have that sort of per cap, irrespective of the system there is lesser low level corruption. That's why i posted the links.

4. Thus it's better to harness the anti-corruption awareness and disgust to continue with faster dismantling of the license, discretionary power system, bring in and push for better accountability, reforms etc so that we don't sacrifice on growth. It's my view that it's better to grow 11 or 12 % a couple of decades at the minimum rather than 8 or 9%.

5. Like to add with a higher GDP, more money is put into Judicial processes, Education and health. Cases are disposed faster and citizens become more aware of their rights. Thus GDP has a direct effect on the effectiveness of governance. This obviously does not imply citizens sit back and do nothing..

[Neela]

"Dual control" is typically a recipe for disaster, more so in administrative functions...Police has funcitons ranging from law and order, to investigations (of all crimes - corruption to murder to theft) to counter insurgency...It cannot be taking order from two different sources of "authority" all the time...Unity of command is an essential feature in any organisation...

Struck out parts where you make generic claims and use that as an argument.
With policies and laws in place ( your own argument) ambiguity is lost and makes it quite straightforward for most of the cases. Moreover, the police chief is essentially in command. A joint panel oversees the functioning. The idea being that the executive should not enjoy the immunity it currently has in India.

More importantly, the courts adjudicate over matters involving the police...What will be the perceived "impartiality" of the court (not individual judges, but the institution itself!) when one litigant is an entity that reports to the court itsefl!

The text in bold is where your case is failing because under the current system , that is exactly what is happening. The police are being used as attack dogs by the fused executive/legislative.

[harbans]

An article on the WSJ..basically saying what i said earlier on the LPB being more of a watchdog role, and not pushing for critical key reform:

The unanswered question is whether such a proposal, if implemented, would achieve its intended goal of reducing official corruption and malfeasance.

Evidently, the Hazare theory is that making it easier to investigate illegal behavior by government officials will reduce the temptation to be corrupt and therefore bring down the incidence of corruption. Mr. Hazare himself has claimed that if such an ombudsman agency were to be created, it would reduce graft by 60% to 70%, a number apparently pulled from the air.

The proposal entirely misses out on the fact that under the current system of governance, incentives for corrupt behavior by bribe-givers and bribe-takers would remain unchanged.

Take a simple example. With high taxes and excise duties, incentives for evasion and smuggling will remain unchanged. Stiffer penalties increase the cost of corruption if caught—and that’s a big if—but don’t tinker with the underlying incentive to engage in such behavior. A customs official, for instance, still has the same temptation to take a bribe from an importer who wants to avoid a high customs duty, and the existence of an ombudsman sitting in a Delhi office is unlikely to change this reality very much. And who would report this illegal transaction to an ombudsman? Both the bribe-taking official and the bribe-giving importer have an incentive to keep the transaction secret, ombudsman or no.

...

ow let’s turn to yoga guru Ramdev’s campaign, the thrust of which is also to combat corruption. What tops the list of demands is the repatriation of “black money” that has been stashed illegally in banks abroad and the prosecution of individuals and businesses who have engaged in this practice. There are no reliable estimates of how much money may be involved, according to the government. A recent study by the U.S. Global Financial Integrity nonprofit estimates that between 1948 and 2008, total illegal outflows from India were approximately $462 billion.

Leaving aside the practical and legal difficulties of repatriating this money, what would this accomplish? The exchequer would benefit from a one-time bonanza of extra cash, which the government could spend as it sees fit. But once again, the incentives for sending money abroad illegally would not have changed one iota.

Money sent abroad illegally by definition is money on which tax has not been paid, and it may additionally be money earned illegally, such as through corruption. Let’s continue with the example of bribes paid to avoid high import duties. Proceeds of such illegal transactions obviously cannot be declared and therefore must be hidden under the proverbial mattress, and eventually somehow laundered or sent abroad. Again, there’s no change in the underlying incentives, therefore no solution as to why the money went abroad in the first place.

....

The common denominator in all of these proposals is that they tackle the symptom rather than the cause of the disease. It’s a bit like trying to get someone to quit smoking by making it harder for them to get hold of a cigarette lighter. A serious effort to tackle corruption will necessarily involve economic and regulatory reforms that reduce the incentive to be corrupt, rather than just make it costlier to get caught. Unfortunately, such deep structural reforms have not been on the agenda of either the Hazare or Ramdev campaigns or of the government for that matter.

.....

Social activism of this sort tends to produce easily digestible slogans rather than deeply thought out policy proposals.

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011 ... sals-work/

[Raghavendra]

The unanswered question is whether such a proposal, if implemented, would achieve its intended goal of reducing official corruption and malfeasance.

How would one know whether the baby born will grow up to a engineer or a doctor? You have to wait for the results and then comment

[Sri]

Vikas Ji, I have been reading harn]abns Ji for very long time here. He says that if we deal with corruption then this government will fall because they are so corrupt. But then we will not have people like MMS / Montek Singh Ji / Pranab Ji and others whoare individually not corrupt to steer our policy direction which is much more important.

[somnath]

The idea being that the executive should not enjoy the immunity it currently has in India.
------------------------
The text in bold is where your case is failing because under the current system , that is exactly what is happening. The police are being used as attack dogs by the fused executive/legislative

I dont think you appreciate the delicate separation of powers between the organs of the state....Law and order is a state executive job..If the political executie is deemed to be failing in that, it needs to be voted out...Courts are there to adjudicate, not run administrative functions....

If there is a breakdown in law and order, who should the people blame then? A judge? But he is not an elected entity...And he will pass on the buck to the politician, who in turn will simply pass the buck back to the judge!

the attempts at building autnomy is not to take away the responsiblity of the political executive..Refer to the police reforms recos I posted earlier, it is about building institutional structures within the executive to ringfence the police from intreference in day-to-day workings...

[harbans]

I have been reading harn]abns Ji for very long time here. He says that if we deal with corruption then this government will fall because they are so corrupt. But then we will not have people like MMS / Montek Singh Ji / Pranab Ji and others whoare individually not corrupt to steer our policy direction which is much more important.

Sri Ji, i never said that. Not once. Ironically i posted i don't mind this lot going to the ...... you can fill in your blanks in accordance to your taste.

Fact is all the time i have posted specifically on the real issues that need to be dealt with to tackle corruption..in contrast to rhetorical sloganeering.

Again quoting from a Business Standard article:

While punishing the guilty is important, preventive measures can play a significant role in fighting corruption. It is only when these different strands of strategy converge that anti-corruption efforts will achieve lasting results.

The core components of the strategy should consist of electoral reforms, effective use of existing laws that mandate governments to empower people with information, greater transparency in discretionary decision making, and citizen-friendly public services. It is when these components fail to work or are abused that the Lokpal or Lokayukta should intervene.


Of these, electoral reforms, including election financing, have been widely debated, but not acted on. Significant public financing of elections, limits on electoral expenditure, and its disclosure and audit are examples of preventive action that can help control corruption. Public pressure is the only option left to get the government and political parties to adopt these reforms.

Much less attention has been given to the effective use of existing laws to work in a preventive mode. A classic case is the Right to Information Act, Section IV of which requires governments to provide a great deal of useful information to the public suo moto. When citizens are aware of their entitlements and rights, they are more likely to demand them and resist corruption. The failure to implement this section is a major reason why people are forced to seek information under RTI that in other countries is readily available to the public.

Transparency in public governance can go a long way in reducing the scope for corruption. Major policy decisions, award of contracts and licences and discretionary decisions that benefit private parties are the contexts in which big scams emerge. It often takes much staying power and the use of the RTI sledgehammer to crack this nut. Since these are matters of public interest, should not the information be disclosed to the public without anyone asking for it?

It is difficult to eliminate discretion in decision making. But surely, such decisions could be disclosed to the public, at least on websites, to begin with. The temptation to engage in corrupt and unfair deals can be prevented by shedding the sunlight of disclosure on all such cases.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ll/435568/

[Raghavendra]

‘Govt wants to control CBI to arm twist rivals’ http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/go ... 14194.html

New Delhi: Criticising the decision to exclude CBI from the ambit of RTI, activist Arvind Kejriwal on Tuesday accused the government of not bringing it under an independent Lokpal to "arm twist" political leaders opposed to it.

Ahead of the final meeting of the joint drafting committee on Lokpal Bill, Kejriwal told reporters that it appears that whenever the government was in trouble, it will "send CBI after politicians like Mulayam Singh Yadav and Mayawati".

"The government is interested in keeping the CBI as a dishonest agency so that it can arm twist opponents and scuttle any investigation against their own people," Kejriwal, who is one of the ten member of the committee, said. He also noted that CBI does not deal with security and intelligence and cannot be clubbed with agencies like Intelligence Bureau or RAW. "RTI Act says security and intelligence agencies can be kept out," he said.

Asked about the previous meetings of the Lokpal drafting committee, he said they had a feeling that the decisions of the government side were "pre-decided". However, he said, the silver lining was that they were able to hold a country-wide discussion about Lokpal and its various provisions.

[Pranav]

How did KG Balakrishnan make it? Or YK Sabharwal? All public servants are appointed by the govt...If you want to get rid of INC, vote it out! And yes, go through the selection process of Lokpal - it is perhaps the most rigrous..

No surprise that Balakrishnan or Sabharwal made it, the surprise is that Kapadia slipped through.

Talking about voting out X or Y is well and good, but what do we do about the fact that we are not a democracy (obviously you need transparency and verifiability of elections to call yourself a democracy).

[Hari Seldon]

Just so that you know I don't buy the story of all voting machines being manipulated by a hyper power remotely from come cave complex.

That is the wrong question. Any assertion that the machines are not rigged is pure blind faith.

The real issues are whether the machines are transparent and verifiable (absolutely not), whether there have been suspicious "malfunctions" (plenty), and whether Netas would love to rig them (of course).

+1. Wow. Bears repetition only. Thanks for articulating this well, sir.

[Arjun]

Vikas Ji, I have been reading harn]abns Ji for very long time here. He says that if we deal with corruption then this government will fall because they are so corrupt. But then we will not have people like MMS / Montek Singh Ji / Pranab Ji and others whoare individually not corrupt to steer our policy direction which is much more important.

Don't know if this is what Harbans ji is really implying. But if it were I would not agree with the sentiment, for the following reason-

Unlike in China, in India - economic growth is fundamentally not a government -driven phenomenon at all. It is basically driven by the quality of Indian businesses and Indian entrepreneurship. The only way the government assists in this is by following as much as a hands-off policy as possible in business.

In fact, if anything MMS can be accused of failing to match up with the reformist image in economics that he came in with at the start of UPA-1....the golden years of Indian economic policy making IMO were the 1992 - 2004 timeframe; which not co-incidentally was also the only time period that the country did not have to suffer the Dynasty. The basic enabling reforms framework is widely known and there is absolutely no secret mantra out here......All one needs to have is a basic pro-growth and pro-business mindset and the political will to carry reforms through - getting advisors who know the specifics of what needs to be done in order to liberalize further is actually the easy part.

[Sri]

Sri Ji, i never said that. Not once. Ironically i posted i don't mind this lot going to the ...... you can fill in your blanks in accordance to your taste.

Fact is all the time i have posted specifically on the real issues that need to be dealt with to tackle corruption..in contrast to rhetorical sloganeering.

Sir,

May I then request you to articulate your thought process in bullet form, so that I (can't vouch for others) can understand you better.

I have mine in bullets below:

1) There has been some very serious incidents of corruption in the country.

2) Somehow the current structure of governance was not able to a) preempt it and b) because of political considerations tried to cover up or delay the incidents by exercising direct control over investigating agencies. Hence there IS A NEED TO CHANGE.

3) Some people have crossed their threshold of patience on the issue. So they are doing whatever they can by peaceful means to deal with the issue head on. AH and RD are few of them.

4) GOI also wants to act (specially after TN elections result). But also typically wants to ensure that when it acts, it gets all the credit and not the opposition or other forces that may be. Hence the mud slinging.

[Neela]

The idea being that the executive should not enjoy the immunity it currently has in India.
------------------------
The text in bold is where your case is failing because under the current system , that is exactly what is happening. The police are being used as attack dogs by the fused executive/legislative

I dont think you appreciate the delicate separation of powers between the organs of the state....Law and order is a state executive job..If the political executie is deemed to be failing in that, it needs to be voted out...Courts are there to adjudicate, not run administrative functions....

the organs of the state are only as good as the people who run it. I dont think you appreciate and understand the problems with the Indian system enough . Which is why when addressing a problem of too much power being vested on one arm, you refer to theory instead of a practical solution.

If there is a breakdown in law and order, who should the people blame then? A judge? But he is not an elected entity...And he will pass on the buck to the politician, who in turn will simply pass the buck back to the judge!
the attempts at building autnomy is not to take away the responsiblity of the political executive..Refer to the police reforms recos I posted earlier, it is about building institutional structures within the executive to ringfence the police from intreference in day-to-day workings...

Again, your own argument fails you. Breakdown of law and order has happened and the blame game is all too common. You need to get in touch with reality. BTW , you keep referring to doomsday scenarios all too often - focussing more on effects rather than cause.

An instituinal ringfence is a start. Good idea. But will it work in the Indian context? Think about Diggy Singh and Rahul baby. sycophancy. Which is why I keep reiterating that the classic interpretations are all not necessarily suited for India 100%.

[Chinmayanand]

Is it 91 trillion rupees ?

[Aditya_V]

Is it 91 trillion rupees ?

Yes, but higly exagerated, look at the way things money in Bank accounts is clubbed with scams. As Archan pointed out, the information on that board is Like Maneka Ghandi's statement yesterday.

[Raghavendra]

no talk, only videos from now on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBnHtHO7ZE0

[sanjeevpunj]

Hats off to him, clear thoughts, well expressed.

[anmol]

Is it 91 trillion rupees ?

Yes, but higly exagerated, look at the way things money in Bank accounts is clubbed with scams. As Archan pointed out, the information on that board is Like Maneka Ghandi's statement yesterday.

Why shouldn't the money put into(contravention of PML-FEMA act) Swiss bank A/c's be clubbed together with other scams ?

[sanjeevpunj]

PM is out. Ministers on the run. Hazare bowls another googly. Ramdev retired hurt but waiting to bat again after doctors intervene. After cricket this Lok Pal Bill has been the most exciting event in India.

[Vikas]

Vikas Ji, few points here in perspective.

1. Our growth started picking up once the process of reform and dismantling the License Raj started. The more the dismantling and transparency the growth story went up. The more the growth and thus GDP, results in lesser corruption. I only pointed out the correlation between corruption and Per cap GDP in the links.

2. Suppose the LPB does'nt happen. We continue with the normal pace of push/ reform, there is no anti-corruption movement as is now. India will still grow around 8-9%. With focus on removing corruption and taking steps to reduce discretionary powers, increase in transparency we will grow around 11%. That amounts to arriving around a 4000 USD per cap income plus or minus 2 or 3 years.

3. At that level a lower level GOI official would'nt be as tempted to take a bribe as one today. It's not a magic wand. But in countries that have that sort of per cap, irrespective of the system there is lesser low level corruption. That's why i posted the links.

4. Thus it's better to harness the anti-corruption awareness and disgust to continue with faster dismantling of the license, discretionary power system, bring in and push for better accountability, reforms etc so that we don't sacrifice on growth. It's my view that it's better to grow 11 or 12 % a couple of decades at the minimum rather than 8 or 9%.

5. Like to add with a higher GDP, more money is put into Judicial processes, Education and health. Cases are disposed faster and citizens become more aware of their rights. Thus GDP has a direct effect on the effectiveness of governance. This obviously does not imply citizens sit back and do nothing..

Harbans ji, Thanks for the detailed reply. First up I am no fan of LokPal or whatever name one wants to assign to this position. Another position which can be and if we go by past precedents will be misused.
We know how the game is played by political parties in India. My only concern is that political parties are not going to remove corruption by themselves and ordinary Indian has no recourse except to wait for 5 years and bring in another corrupt.
As we have seen, with India growing the apatite and magnitude of corruption has also gone up. Kalmadi, Raja , Deshmukh and others are examples of loot and shamelessness.
I don't think that those who can indulge in corruption will stop being corrupt once India hits middle income country. I would be interested in knowing if the countries which are perceived to be less corrupt have anti-corruption measure better than India. I think this disgust by ordinary public towards corruption is a good sign but somehow LP is being touted as goldpot at the end of the rainbow.

I totally agree with your Point#5 that if somehow we can improve Judicial processes and put fear of God in the heart of all Indians. probably we will be better off as a nation.
As far govt, if it is corrupt, it must go. Anyways UPA-2 hasn't done anything spectacular in last2-3 years for us to hope for betterment.

[Raghavendra]

Sonia & Rahul in Switzerland to Secure their Black Money : Dr Subramanian Swamy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFXJ5Cc3a0M

[Sushupti]

[sanjeevpunj]

Wake up time! Cannot trust anyone, after having heard this gentleman.Peace be upon him. What's happening to India?

[Raghavendra]

Breaking news : Massive scam in coal mining unearthed, PM Manmohan directly involved

dash dash dash dash dash birathers are going to dislike this, their teflon coated PM now cant escape responsibility

[Manish_Sharma]

Mega exlosions by Deshbandhu Gupta:

[nataraja]

[quote="Sushupti"][/quote]

Harbans,

Whats the low down on this Bandhu Gupta guy ? Have you been able to dig up some dirt on him ?

[archan]

^ What kind of a question is that? you have the ability to contribute positively and I would appreciate if you keep doing so. DOn't get entangled with a personal debate with 1-2 members. And yes, don't quote youtube videos and large images posted right above by another user.

[nataraja]

^ What kind of a question is that? you have the ability to contribute positively and I would appreciate if you keep doing so. DOn't get entangled with a personal debate with 1-2 members. And yes, don't quote youtube videos and large images posted right above by another user.

You are right.

Point taken.

[somnath]

In the meanwhile, the "real" deal to fight black money (and corruption as well) is going to go abegging, yet again..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gst-m ... n/806976/0

GST will miss the deadline again - but its too "unsexy" to be raising a ruckus over!

[disha]

In the meanwhile, the "real" deal to fight black money (and corruption as well) is going to go abegging, yet again..

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/gst-m ... n/806976/0

GST will miss the deadline again - but its too "unsexy" to be raising a ruckus over!

First of all, the debate over GST should go in tax reforms. It might be an intangible benefit that it may reduce visible corruption for the local traders from the hafta collecting state sales tax controllers ( and that is one of the reason against GST)., still there are several tax reforms that needs to take place and GST is one among them.

Also one of the states that is oppossing it is TN., what was the DMK government doing all this years? They were in partnership at Center or is it that they want no reforms so that they can have hafta collection on the side within the state?

Further introducing GST will never be easy, it needs to be done and is logical does not mean it will be done. For that, more people should be made aware of how the sales tax is collected and utilized and how they get benefit. If the government is really serious about introducing it, then what is its PR division doing? Where is the education campaign on how it will effect the daily life of aam admi. Currently the workings of the babudom and the government is opaque and this suits the people in power ( the NBJPIE ) very well.

And last, if you really want to raise the "ruckus" and draw attention towards the need for GST? Nobody has stopped you from doing that! Already the bill is drafted, debated and some states have even accepted it, so should be easy compared to other items.

[disha]

Breaking news : Massive scam in coal mining unearthed, PM Manmohan directly involved

dash dash dash dash dash birathers are going to dislike this, their teflon coated PM now cant escape responsibility

Any links? Not seeing it in MSM.

[disha]

Sonia & Rahul in Switzerland to Secure their Black Money : Dr Subramanian Swamy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFXJ5Cc3a0M

Gori Sonia Kaala Rupiah!

[somnath]

First of all, the debate over GST should go in tax reforms. It might be an intangible benefit that it may reduce visible corruption for the local traders from the hafta collecting state sales tax controllers ( and that is one of the reason against GST)., still there are several tax reforms that needs to take place and GST is one among them.

GST is not "one of the many", it is THE reform measure, one that creates an Indian Common Market after all these years...Its impact on corruption is relatively "collateral" in nature...Its impact on "black money" is fundamental - its expected to squeeze out an incremental 1-2% of GDP as taxes..Ergo, potential black money of 10-15% of GDP (assuming effective tax rates of 10-15%) is brought into the "white" mainstream...

About PR? There has been enough "PR" on this over the last 5 years...the merits, benefits et al have been done to death in the media...there isnt even a "debate" anymore, the ebenfits are too obvious...The Central Govt even setup a committee of state FMs to impart "ownership" to states on the process...

But there is no cure for cussedness..I hope AH and his boys take this up once they are through with Lokpal!

[Raghavendra]

Breaking news : Massive scam in coal mining unearthed, PM Manmohan directly involved

dash dash dash dash dash birathers are going to dislike this, their teflon coated PM now cant escape responsibility

Any links? Not seeing it in MSM.

26 Lakh Crore Coal Scam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQcGHyLVxXU

[sumishi]

Mega exlosions by Deshbandhu Gupta:

Revelations aside, IMO that was a cheap shot calling Pranab Mukherjee "hij...". Such loose name-calling are used by the INC to undermine opposition to its nefarious deeds.

[arnab]

And I'm not sure when the debate is about the lok-pal bill, you are bringing in Burkha and A Raja et al.

What is the lokpal bill about? Curbing corruption at high places in public office
Who are barkha dutt and A.Raja? Barkha news anchor who turned dalal for corrupt neta and businessmen. Raja, minister who turned his ministry into a scam office
Both would have been punished if there was a lokpal. Understood?

And ah - a noted distaste in paying taxes - yet want 'first world' government services instantly. How cute

Taxes are meant to be used for public good not to be looted and stored in swiss bank accounts of sonia, either you are a beneficiary of that loot or plain stupid to pay taxes to thieves

Well I'm too tired to explain that a tax proportion of 52% in petrol is about the average fuel tax globally (tax of 30% that India imposes on disel is actually lower than the global average). Countries like Germany, Spain and France impose a 66% tax on fuel despite a large proportion of their population actually paying income tax. In India barely 3 % of the population pays income tax (so I guess most of India is certainly not 'stupid' enough to pay taxes) - yatha praja, tatha raja Hence we have an over reliance on indirect taxes, like taxes on fuel.

I know it is easy to ask for GOI to end subsidy - I would like to see any party manifesto which actually commits to removing fuel, fertiliser and electricity subsidies (including the subsidy of not paying income tax on agricultural income).

However, this is for discussion with the more erudite members of the forum - not folks whose primary methodology of a debate is ROFL

But more importantly about lok-pal. You claim lok-pal would have 'punished' Raja and Barkha. AFAIK - Raja is in jail and awaiting a trial, without any lokpal. Is Lok-pal about taking over the role of the judiciary? But, please explain - for what crime would Barkha be punished by the lok-pal? Being a 'dalal' might be distasteful, but is it illegal? That Media sleeps with politicians was well known to most astute followers. This time people got it on tape. The only ones who were whining about betrayal are the ones who naively believe that mainstream media is only about getting 'facts' to the people.

[Chinmayanand]

Revelations aside, IMO that was a cheap shot calling Pranab Mukherjee "hij...". Such loose name-calling are used by the INC to undermine opposition to its nefarious deeds.

Being a former Congressi , he difinitely knows what language Congress understands.

[somnath]

You claim lok-pal would have 'punished' Raja and Barkha. AFAIK - Raja is in jail and awaiting a trial, without any lokpal. Is Lok-pal about taking over the role of the judiciary? But, please explain - for what crime would Barkha be punished by the lok-pal? Being a 'dalal' might be distasteful, but is it illegal? That Media sleeps with politicians was well known to most astute followers. This time people got it on tape

Arnab, on Barkha Dutt, you are 100% spot on...Nothing illegal in what she did, though terribly distasteful (knowing a few things that I do about her, I wsnt all that surprised though)...

On Lokpal and punishing Raja, how would LokPal have helped? Simple...Recall the sequence of events on the issue...From allocation of additional spectrum to existing players to the entire policy change around 2G pricing - people were crying blue murder since then...There were complaints made against him even then..Went nowhere as no one in the executive took real notice, by ommission or commission...If there was a Lokpal,

1. Those compliants could be made to the Lokpal (by Subramanyam Swami ), or the Lokpal could take suo motu cognisance..
2. Lokpal can initiate an investigation, either through its own investiative wing or thorugh the police/CBI...The latter is obligated to act under instructions of the Lokpal..
3. If prima facie evidence was found (and it was too evident not to be in Raja's case), Lokpal needs no sanction to prosecute Raja..
4. Prosecution case would have been filed against Raja in a special Lokpal court...

1 to 4 would mean Raja would have had to resign from the Cabinet...

Ergo, Raja would have been caught a few years back, and without the Radia tapes...Maybe even before the 2G allocation actually took place...

All the 4 steps could have been taken by existing institutions - but rules, processes and above all vested interests meant that they didnt..Hence an instittuion that is independent of "vested interest" is a solution...