The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 22 Jun 2011 18:22

This is where I tend to disagree with my fellow patriots. By patriots I mean people who would like for India to be rooted in all the "good things" of our own culture, who want India to be strong, independent and be a homeland for Hindus, while treating others with respect.

And I readily agree, that no outside influence or culture, however benign, is going to primarily look after Indian interests, because those outside influences and cultures evolved naturally to protect their constituencies' core interests. By their very nature, they were not meant to protect or advance the Indians. That does not mean we cannot selectively borrow those aspects of other people's culture, technololgy, thought etc, whenever it is in our genuine interest to assimilate those. But we should do it very carefully and with open eyes and we Indians alone should be the sole arbiters of what we assimilate in.

So far, I dont think there will be any disagreements. These above are all "motherhood statements", as some of my vitriolic detractors here like to call my posts, without giving my points any kind of deep thought.

Here is the point of disagreement with some of my fellow patriots.

Some of my fellow patriots seem to go much further than I did above. They seem to believe that absolutely EVERYTHINGH about our Indian past, Indian history, Indian culture, Indian system was perfect. That we had no flaws at all. All the problem started when outsiders came and enslaved us and deracinated us and Macaulyte education brain washed us and this Anglicized Indian elite of brown sahibs developed and so on. All our problems to this day are caused by Western conspiracy or Islamists or "dimi" class who is over awed by outsiders or too cowered down by outsiders. Some of these same fellow patriots do not feel that we Indians are in any way responsible for our own problems. That we have been, are and will always be nearly flawless or VSS2 at the most.

I say, yes, others have compounded the problems for us. But the root cause of all our problems has always been "we ourselves". We should look in the mirror. It is fundamentally our corruption and the rot within our own selves, which lead to all our problems. As much as I am an admirer of some of our glorious rulers of the past and am as proud a nationalist as any (I dont think in intention at least, anyone can be more of a nationalist than me), let me break it to you guys. Ravana, Kauravas, Jarasandh, Kansa were all deracinated corrupt. Ok, they are mythological figures, you say. Fine. How about the Nandas, the Mauryas, the Guptas, the Turko-Afghans, the Moghuls ......... were all corrupt in the money sense. I refer my friends to history books that talk about corruption among Nanda officials, Maurya officials, Gupta officials, even Marathas.

Then there is another form of corruption which is even more deadly than money corruption, as if money corruption is not deadly enough. That is self loathing. We as Indians always had a tendency from thousands of years ago of trying to pull another fellow Indian down. We were and continue to be so blinded by envy that we would rather see an outsider succeed than one of our own. Forget about giving our fellow Indian a hand, we are everready to give him a boot, almost all the time, even at the expense of our own long term or medium term interests. In this we Indians are unique, the degree to which we are envious of our fellow Indians. Most times we damage our fellow Indian knowing fully that we will hurt ourselves in the process, but we seem to have a "compulsion" to do it. It is almost a physio-psychological compulsion, where we lose control of our faculties and all our logic, our rationality our brilliant mind become powerless at that moment to prevent us from being self destructive in that fashion. Why is this so deadly ? Because when we are so personally envious of each other, we cannot found or form a genuine and cohesive community. And as the old addage goes, united we stand and divided we fall. Most things of significance cannot be achieved by individual briliiance, which we Indians possess in abundance. Most things of significance are achieved by collective action, even if the collective is somewhat mediocre. Most importantly, the defence of our nation can only be achieved through collective action. If that werent the case, we wouldnt be in such bad shape as far as national defense goes, because our individual soldier historically and to this day, is the most gallant, the most courageous the most "vir" of them all. Therefore, our failure to traditionally build a strong community has carried on to this day, because we couldnt get past our individual, narrow considerations to build one. Therefore, since we are historically not used to acting in a community, we have not been able to evolve as a community.

When we could'nt build a strong collective, whether you call it a community or a society or a nation, then we open ourselves up for outside aggression, invasion, cultural invasions, outside oppression and yes, deracination. That is what indeed has happened, in my analysis anyway. Therefore, this inability to build a strong community is the worst form of corruption, which is uniquely Indian (we didnt need anyone's help in bringing this about). We did this all on our own. Now before anyone goes off on a tangent, let me state that I am not gleeful when I state this and I dont enjoy stating this. In fact, I get very sad and depressed when I think about it. Becuase it would have been much easier, if I could find someone else to blame. But in all honesty I cannot, for this fundamental corruption. Thats why it is so depressing.

How do we get out of this ? Again, the answer is very simple. In order to get out of this, we have to build a strong community. How do we do that ? By ridding ourselves of this "corruption" of self hate and self loathing, which causes us to have this "pathological jealousy". It is this pathological jealousy of our fellow, that comes in the way of creating this strong community. How do we do that ? Well psychiatrists will tell you that the first thing in the process of cure is acceptance of the problem. Another way to put it is to get out of denial. So, let us accept the problem. Then I am sure all our collective brilliance can solve the problem. We can then all take the right combination of medication, diet, intellectual diet, thought control, yoga and sometimes even electric shocks to control our compulsion of hurting our fellow being, when we get that attack. SO LET US ACCEPT THE PROBLEM.

It would have been far easier to build a strong community all those many years ago. But we didnt. So, it got progressively tougher by the century. Now it is the hardest to do than any other time in our history. But, it will be harder tomorrow, even harder the day after and at some point, if we dont do it, we will just die.

A lot of people will get down on me, because they will say, these are motherhood statements. I am not offering any magic bullet, they will say. I am not offering a "policy solution", they will cry. But self reflection is hard. Self criticism is hard. Self knowledge is hard. But, our religion, our philosophy is all based on "knowledge of self". All our sages including Swami Vivekanand have written about this. We need to look deep within ourselves and then we will come up with solutions. Then no external enemy has a chance. We will then deracinate the world, as we Indians were created by Lord Brahma to do.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 22 Jun 2011 18:26

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 952041.cms

Slamming the claim that the civil society's proposed ombudsman will be a virtual parallel government, veteran Gandhian Anna Hazare on Wednesday accused the government of trying to mislead the people.

"We have an Election Commission and the government can't interfere in its function. We have the Supreme Court and the Right to Information (RTI) Act which they cannot interfere in," Hazare said here.

"Just like them, the Lokpal should also be beyond government's interference," he said, adding the government's claims were an attempt to "mislead the people".

"The government is trying to create misunderstanding in the minds of the people before our fast, which will be the second struggle for freedom," he said.

Hazare has vowed to launch a hunger strike from Aug 16 at Jantar Mantar in the heart of the capital.

Hazare said it was also important to bring the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) under the Lokpal to uproot corruption in the country.

"The CBI has investigated so many corruption cases but how many ministers have gone to jail since independence? This is because the government has full control over the CBI. That is why despite corruption ministers don't go to jail," Hazare said.

"This is why the CBI should be brought under the Lokpal. This is what we are demanding," he added.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 18:31

nataraja wrote:
A lot of people will get down on me, because they will say, these are motherhood statements. I am not offering any magic bullet, they will say. I am not offering a "policy solution", they will cry. But self reflection is hard. Self criticism is hard. Self knowledge is hard. But, our religion, our philosophy is all based on "knowledge of self". All our sages including Swami Vivekanand have written about this. We need to look deep within ourselves and then we will come up with solutions. Then no external enemy has a chance. We will then deracinate the world, as we Indians were created by Lord Brahma to do.

Great post,
Just one point though I think anybody who has India's best interest at heart's would say that everything was hunky dory in times past.Obviously there were flaws because of which we suffered/are suffering.The point is to remove that flaws with all the modern knowledge and experience we now have.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 22 Jun 2011 18:44

The extreme Left and the extreme Right are united, in forecasting a revolution!

Both spouting esoteric slogans (masquerading as rationale) that make no sense to the aspirational Indian of the 21st century....Both failing to articulate any policy alternatives beyond the slogans (to be fair, the extreme Left does, its quite good at articulating "policy" - but the antediluvianism makes them irrelevant)...

Marx was right, "loonies of the world unite, we have nothing to lose but our "illogic"!"

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 22 Jun 2011 18:47

Muppalla wrote:At a katcha level, INC spends 90% of its money earned in bribing the above types and making sure 90% of such voters comes to polls while dividing the rest. As I said, its strategy to win with 15% of the voteshare of the elgible voters. In the past it just used to strategise on KHAM. The current strategy is to win with portions of HAM and that needs a lot of money.

Perhaps sir they genuinely believe the INC is a better alternative. Frankly if the party's been able to 'spread the wealth' among 90% of the public, they've done considerably better than the government's social programs and kudos to them for that. Now if the TINA factor is at play here, the object of scorn should be the BJP for being unable to pose a real challenge (for democracy's sake if nothing else).

I think Rahul Gandhi's heart is in the right place and am hoping he'll stick to politics and leave the actual governance in more able hands - hopefully the INC will run the next election with PC taking over for MMS.

I was quite disappointed with the performance of the UPA-II government, and I'd have considered voting for a decisive BJP government if I at least knew who was in charge. LK Advani is retired.. sort of.. right? Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley seem to be equals but are not always on the best of terms. Nitin Gadkari was originally leading the party, the fresh hope, but now seems to have faded away.

In any case, I'm OT here. We should probably continue on a more appropriate thread.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 18:49

somnath wrote:The extreme Left and the extreme Right

Anybody who now wants the hindu voice to be heard even in matter's of corruption are now extreme right whereas mainovadis are centrist and will deliver.
An example of the Mainovadis:

Sushupti wrote: PranabM tapped by RobertVadera/Karti Chidambaram to rig Stock market

PRESS RELEASE OF DR.SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY IN 2011

22.06.2011
PRESS RELEASE
I now have further information from my usually reliable sources in the Union Government that the tapping of Finance Minister Mr.Pranab Mukherjee and his close associate in the Ministry, enabled Mr.Robert Vadra the son-in-law of Ms.Sonia Gandhi and Mr.Karthik son of Mr.P.Chidambaram, to use the data thereby collected to manipulate and rig the Mumbai stock market. Earlier these data were directly provided by the then Finance Minister Mr.Chidambaram.
I demand that the SEBI be asked by PM to initiate “Insider Trading” investigation and prosecution of Mr.Vadra and Mr.Karthik.
(SUBRAMANIAN SWAMY)

http://www.janataparty.org/pressdetail.asp?rowid=60

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 22 Jun 2011 18:50

natraja: Let us accept for argument sake that the problem is "we". Now, what will you do, bring in others? Well, not literally, so bring in other's ideas. That is exactly what we did. Our constituent assembly made a deliberate choice by thinking that they could "reform" and "ameliorate" our social polity through a mother of all constitution, which was the same as during the colonial era by as much as 85% in 1950.

The amelioration project is exactly what our constitution set out to do and by all accounts, it has failed.

Now, do you do amelioration 2.0 based on someone else's ideas again or accept we are who we are and that as a society, like every other, we have certain time tested strengths. Strengths that as a society we need to exploit and certain weaknesses. Weaknesses that need to be overcome. Not through an edict by Delhi but by societal change that will take its time in this vast land.

Example: Is it Unity in Diversity or Diversity in Unity makes a fundamental difference in how you think of India. Is it a pretense of a "federal" structure or a real federal structure makes a big difference in center state relations. Who is sovereign? Today it is Delhi. Is that what we want? Is that the only way for our land? Many such questions, like direct elections, the powers of the state, etc come into question.

Do we have the guts to admin that maybe, just maybe our forefathers got it wrong in large measure. BTW: 70% of them were lawyers. No surprises on who's laws they were influenced by.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 19:03

I am reading this with interest, nice flow of thought going on.ShauryaT mentioned uprooting the entire political structure and starting from scratch.This is pointing in the right direction,however it is still just a pointer.I agree with that conclusion that the entire political structure needs to be uprooted.
Natraja is pointing again in the right direction, self-introspection,seeing ourselves as we really are, in a mirror of the mind.I do not think these are motherhood statements, these are core statements without which we cannot proceed. I am a fan of Swami Vivekananda, since childhood.I definitely agree we need to be awake and the next step- we need to act correctly is on my mind.Gita is the right source if anyone wants to delve deep.I have spent years reading Gita, and yes it is wonderful.it is the best book I have encountered, they say books enter our lives with a purpose and when that purpose is fulfilled the books disappear.This one book has not disappeared from my life. Looking at the core issue of change,Gita points this out clearly in a statement by Krishna - "Time I am , the destroyer of Worlds". This needs to be understood thoroughly before we even think of taking any action.After all, we all are influenced so heavily by what is going on, we need to form our thoughts clearly before we do something.I for once had imagined I am fighting alone, but I see so many here who are on these wavelengths. Please do not assume that by quoting the statement of Krishna, I mean to impress my views that I am a Hindu or something. No! Having read the Gita, one will rise above such identifications (Hindu/chritsian/muslim/sikh/buddhist etc). The very nature of our identity is above religions. Who we really are, once we know that, we can act perfectly.

This question is important - what next?. What do we do.Do we follow? Do we lead? Who do we follow? following people who are already trying to make deals with the government, will bring us down so hard, we wont know what hit us.I think it is not wise to follow any external leaders till we have spent some time with them discussed with them in person, studied their approach carefully.I do not wish to be a follower of any leaders at this juncture- be it Baba Ramdev or Anna Hazare.
I am stopping here, cannot write too long until I get some fair amount of feedback.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 22 Jun 2011 19:06

ShauryaT wrote:natraja: Let us accept for argument sake that the problem is "we". Now, what will you do, bring in others? Well, not literally, so bring in other's ideas. That is exactly what we did. Our constituent assembly made a deliberate choice by thinking that they could "reform" and "ameliorate" our social polity through a mother of all constitution, which was the same as during the colonial era by as much as 85% in 1950.

The amelioration project is exactly what our constitution set out to do and by all accounts, it has failed.

Now, do you do amelioration 2.0 based on someone else's ideas again or accept we are who we are and that as a society, like every other, we have certain time tested strengths. Strengths that as a society we need to exploit and certain weaknesses. Weaknesses that need to be overcome. Not through an edict by Delhi but by societal change that will take its time in this vast land.

Example: Is it Unity in Diversity or Diversity in Unity makes a fundamental difference in how you think of India. Is it a pretense of a "federal" structure or a real federal structure makes a big difference in center state relations. Who is sovereign? Today it is Delhi. Is that what we want? Is that the only way for our land? Many such questions, like direct elections, the powers of the state, etc come into question.

Do we have the guts to admin that maybe, just maybe our forefathers got it wrong in large measure. BTW: 70% of them were lawyers. No surprises on who's laws they were influenced by.

Ok, so, correct me if I am wrong, but here is my understanding of your post above.

You are agreeing with me that we have the problem of "self loathing". You may not like the word, so use another phrase, but you and I both know what flaw we are talking about.

You then say, what is the solution ? Is the solution to be imposed by "some narrow authority", such as our constiution makers and/or Delhi ? Worst, you say, would we need to bring in outsiders as a solution to our problem ? Then you answer both questions as a resounding "NO". You say that we have to find the solutions within ourselves, within our people, not a narrow coterie or not outside influences, which our consitution is littered with.

If that is what you are saying, I totally agree with you. 100%.

If that is not what you are saying, I apologise, please clarify more, for my sake.

I had not started to post the solutions yet. I am still at a stage, where I have diagnosed the problem. I believe diagnosis is the better part of cure. If a reasonable number of people who agree with the diagnosis, then we can start talking about the solutions. The problem with discussing solutions without an underlying agreement on diagnosis is that we will just be talking past each other. If you are trying to find a cure to cancer and I to heart disease, then we will come up with different solutions, thinking you are trying to apply your solution to my problem and vice versa. Not only will we not get anywhere then, but we will also end up having unnecessary conflicts and hard feelings.

Therefore, before I put forward any solutions, I want to be very clear in my mind, what problem am I offering the solutions for.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 22 Jun 2011 19:09

Salman Khurshid's Role in 2G Scam (Gave clean chit to Swan Telecom during Investigation) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuHhjy7mXY4

Salman Khurshid and his Corporate Ministery gave clean chit to Swan Telecom 5 days after the CAG Report that finds Swan Telecom guilty of Corruption in 2G Scam.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 22 Jun 2011 19:31

Govt Spreading Misinformation about Janlokpal to Confuse People http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vui7fx3Kh8g

Govt is trying to spread misinformation regarding Janlokpal says Anna Hazare and Arvind Kejriwal

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 22 Jun 2011 19:37

Maino family brassknuckles Digivijay Singh has started uttering threats - Same fate as Ramdev awaits you: Digvijay Singh to Anna Hazare! - http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_sa ... re_1557962

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 22 Jun 2011 19:39

sanjeevpunj wrote:This question is important - what next?. What do we do.Do we follow? Do we lead? Who do we follow? following people who are already trying to make deals with the government, will bring us down so hard, we wont know what hit us.I think it is not wise to follow any external leaders till we have spent some time with them discussed with them in person, studied their approach carefully.I do not wish to be a follower of any leaders at this juncture- be it Baba Ramdev or Anna Hazare.

Sanjeev,

Excellent post.

You are on the right track. At least I think so. And I can relate to your dilemma. What next ? The solution doesnt seem to be in sight.

But do not despair. Let us have a clear definition on what ails us. What is the exact nature of our problem/s. Once we have identified the problems, I am confident, solutions will come and action will follow. Have faith and just work towards developing a clear "Problem Statement" of what fundamentally ails us.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 22 Jun 2011 19:42

Pranav wrote:Maino family brassknuckles Digivijay Singh has started uttering threats - Same fate as Ramdev awaits you: Digvijay Singh to Anna Hazare! - http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_sa ... re_1557962

Delhi police was stopped from filing an FIR against Digvijay after he assaulted the journalist and he calls the constitution supreme, liar

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2011 19:43

Doggy Singh is doing better job then VP Singh in reducing the first family credibility. and they think he is on their side!

Is he related to VP Singh?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 19:48

Pranav wrote:Maino family brassknuckles Digivijay Singh has started uttering threats - Same fate as Ramdev awaits you: Digvijay Singh to Anna Hazare! - http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_sa ... re_1557962

Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh on Wednesday warned social activist Anna Hazare not to fast again else he may get the "same treatment" as yoga guru Baba Ramdev got recently.

Digvijay Singh said, "The constitutional system in this country is supreme and responsible to the people of the nation, but the four members of Anna team are not responsible to the people of the country."

He warned Anna Hazare against his proposed fast from Aug 16. "Anna saheb says he will again sit on fast. If he does so, he may get the same treatment as the other (Baba Ramdev) got recently."

The police had cracked down on Ramdev and his supporters in New Delhi's Ramlila Ground on June 4, causing injury to several people. Ramdev was forced to continue his fast against corruption in Haridwar.

The Congress general secretary also questioned the Bharatiya Janata Party's supporting the corruption issue raised by civil society members.

"I want to ask BJP, they remained in power for six years. Did they make a single law against corruption?"

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 19:52

nataraja wrote: Sanjeev,
Excellent post.
You are on the right track. At least I think so. And I can relate to your dilemma. What next ? The solution doesnt seem to be in sight.
But do not despair. Let us have a clear definition on what ails us. What is the exact nature of our problem/s. Once we have identified the problems, I am confident, solutions will come and action will follow. Have faith and just work towards developing a clear "Problem Statement" of what fundamentally ails us.

Thank you.Ever since I joined BRF, I have been trying to sort out green grass from dried grass. I love the way people express themselves here,some views are open to change, some views are "access denied" and I am glad you think I am in the right direction.

Now coming to "Problem Statement". What ails us - as a community of Indians we are held together by a fantastic legacy, but when we look at the social life we immeditately notice the contrasts - rich poor, educated-uneducated, awakened-ignorant, and so on. Perhaps one thing I feel ails all Indians is the "inability to arrive at a consensus" over any issue.This is just a discussion starter I am throwing in. So many in India still want to believe that this "anti-corruption" movement will fizzle out.This is an ailment-opposition to positive change.While we all agree that the change will bring a lot of good for India, many are reluctant to be a part of the change and for obvious reasons, I dont want to bring up, as it leads to pointing fingers. We have to constantly think away from the blackbox, and not get drawn into conflicts. Well, I will be back after a glass of juice down my gullet.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 22 Jun 2011 20:14

Jaspal Bhatti takes a potshot at scams
Tribune News Service

Chandigarh, November 25
Quoting the example of the controversial Tata Housing project in Kansal, ace comedian Jaspal Bhatti said when a “country’s bosses (MPs and MLAs) were engaged in making money out of controversial projects, a common man too should be allowed to make as much money and property as he can.

While addressing a gathering in the Sector 17 Plaza, Bhatti said Dr Manmohan Singh, the Prime Minister, should abandon the ongoing ‘Sarva Siksha Abhiyan’ and replace it with ‘Sarva Ghotala Abhiyaan’. “Instead of wasting time, money and effort on educating a huge population, everyone-young or old alike-should be taught to understand what a scam is and how it can be done”.

The SSA does not guarantee jobs and placements but studying and mastering scams will enable a child to make an earning.

In his typical puckish, short-but-straight manner, Bhatti said, “All the countrymen should be congratulated on India becoming the land of scams. Leaders like A Raja should be decorated with national awards for taking corruption to new heights in our country.”

Showing the reality of the day, Bhatti said, “Now even a scam of the magnitude of Rs 1,67 lakh crore doesn’t raise a murmur, these days. A common man perhaps does not even know how many zeroes the amount has and that was the biggest reason they were not in a position to react”.

Paying rich tributes to the founding father of scams Harshad Mehta, Bhatti said personalities like Telgi, Kalmadi, Yeddyurappa, Ashok Chavan, Lalit Modi and A Raja should be crowned as the ‘navratnas of our nation’.

Students of Mad Arts, Bhatti’s film school danced to the theme of “Aao scam karein,” much to the delight of the gathering. They shouted slogans of “Mera Bharat mahaan- sarv ghotala abhiyaan” and “Hare ek ko de sarkar ghotalon ka adhikar.”

Artists from the Bhatti camp, including Keshav Bharata, Vinod Sharma, Lally Gill and Anoop Sharma were also present on the occasion.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 20:27

^^ Bhatti Ji is a riot.

He is distantly related to us and have met him a couple of times.A thoroughly nice and gentle person.Wish there could be more like him in India.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 20:33

India is so diverse,the diversity is overwhelming and sometimes it becomes a formidable asset to the politicians who wish to fool the masses.They use various ways to keep the masses from rising up,from developing a consensus on crucial points. I have pointed out many times before, ours is an immature democracy, not because of the people, but because of a few people who want to Lord it over the rest.This is the real disease - the desire to Lord over all that we see. As soon as people come to power after being elected, they behave as if no one can challenge them,no one can question them.They then resort to ways which they opposed in their manifesto.Most do a U-turn and become corrupted quite soon.Those with excess money in their coffers - the ruling dynasties - pretend to do social service and try to gather good Karma to enable them to stay in positions of power for longer periods. I would like to quote from Chapter 2 of Srimad Bhagvatam, in this context.The times we live in are described as "The age of Quarrel and Hypocrisy" in the Srimad Bhagvatam.
The Srimad Bhagvatam states - In the age of Kali among man wealth alone will be the sign of a good birth, behavior and qualities and material power will be the only criterion in determining what would be just and right.Marital relations will be based upon outer appearances, in business deceit will be the standard, whether one is considered manly or feminine will depend on one's sexuality and a sacred thread will suffice to be considered learned.An outer mark will be enough to determine a person's spiritual status and will also suffice for changing one's confession, making little money one looses one's credibility and a little word jugglery is enough to be considered a scholar.Poverty is taken for something unholy and hypocrisy is considered a virtue; a promise is enough to be married [to have premarital sex] and to take a bath [without any other morning routine] is enough to appear for the day.A reservoir of water somewhere far away is considered a holy place, beauty depends on one's coiffure, life's purpose is to fill one's belly, audacity is considered truthfulness, able to maintain a family one is an expert and religious service is attended for one's reputation.With the earth overpopulated with a populace thus corrupted, anyone among the intellectuals, the merchants or the ruling or working class who is the strongest, will be the King of the Hill.The citizens whose wives and property is stolen by a merciless and avaricious ruling class behaving like ordinary thieves, will flee to the mountains and the forests.

The above scenario is almost predictive of what is happening today. In a situation where the ruling classes start repressing the poor by force, this would surely happen-people would flee to the mountains and forests.Does the current scenario post-Ramdev attack not appear like this? The rich are calling the shots.I wonder if Rahul Gandhi is distressed by what is happening.He is a wonderful person so far, but what if he is made the Prime Minister to ensure that the black money remains in Switzerland, and the Lokpal Bill is again pushed aside into cold storage?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Jun 2011 20:41

sanjeevpunj wrote:India is so diverse,the diversity is overwhelming

Diversity is an english term and used wronly to describe Indian values.

archan · Post by **archan** » 22 Jun 2011 20:50

Acharya wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:India is so diverse,the diversity is overwhelming
Diversity is an english term and used wronly to describe Indian values.

All, any responses to this should go to some other thread. You can link here to get attention but do not derail this thread with another one of those topics. Thanks.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 21:30

RSoami wrote:http://www.theindiasite.com/family-poli ... arliament/

On the state of politics in India today.

From the link:

Family Politics | How nepotistic is the Indian Parliament?

Do young people stand a chance of joining national politics in India? If you are young, the odds are overwhelmingly against you – unless you have a close family member in politics.

-A shocking 100% of Indian MPs under the age of 30 are hereditary
p
-Two-thirds of Indian MPs under the age of 40 are from political families
p
-Less than 10% of MPs over the age of 70 are hereditary
p
-27 MPs are classified as ‘hyperhereditary’, and 19 of them are in the Congress party. By hyperhereditary, we mean that they have multiple family connections, and several family members who have made a career out of politics.

India may indeed be the world’s largest democracy, and everyone has a right to vote – and that is a precious thing. But does everyone really have an opportunity to stand for Parliament? You can vote, but what are the chances you will ever be voted for, given the growing lack of internal democracy in many of the major political parties?

While researching his new book India: A Portrait – published in the USA by Alfred A. Knopf in June 2011 – Patrick French (@PatrickFrench2 on Twitter) conducted a one-of-its kind survey which tried to answer the following question: What does it take to join politics at the national level today? Is it within or out of reach for the many millions of capable Indians who might like to throw a hat in the ring?

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Are these families going to change their ways because of some anti corruption movements?They will keep on finding new ways of looting the public.Only a total overhaul of the political system forced by the common man will change all this.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Jun 2011 21:33

Manishw wrote:
Pranav wrote:Maino family brassknuckles Digivijay Singh has started uttering threats - Same fate as Ramdev awaits you: Digvijay Singh to Anna Hazare! - http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_sa ... re_1557962

Congress general secretary Digvijay Singh on Wednesday warned social activist Anna Hazare not to fast again else he may get the "same treatment" as yoga guru Baba Ramdev got recently.

Digvijay Singh said, "The constitutional system in this country is supreme and responsible to the people of the nation, but the four members of Anna team are not responsible to the people of the country."

He warned Anna Hazare against his proposed fast from Aug 16. "Anna saheb says he will again sit on fast. If he does so, he may get the same treatment as the other (Baba Ramdev) got recently."

The police had cracked down on Ramdev and his supporters in New Delhi's Ramlila Ground on June 4, causing injury to several people. Ramdev was forced to continue his fast against corruption in Haridwar.

The Congress general secretary also questioned the Bharatiya Janata Party's supporting the corruption issue raised by civil society members.

"I want to ask BJP, they remained in power for six years. Did they make a single law against corruption?"

Not much to worry about Digvijay. Unfortunately the same media he uses for his purpose also keeps a record of all that he pours out. Starting from even before his declarations on 26/11, there is enough material to justify starting an investigation into his roles in treasonable offense. The same method he and his party uses to "investigate" alleged offenses of political targets - will yield results. Let him speak more. A time will come when those who use him as a servant will be forced to disown him to save H&D. He is experienced in "street fighting" he said on live TV, and denied not that he "might" have given a bash or two. So he must be finding it alright if similar things happen to him or those who benefit from his "earnings" in the future.

It is good. It is just storing up and adding to the rage that people like him or Sibal generate. But the next time around, their masters will face it too. String pullers from behind cannot be exempt.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 21:38

I usually refrain from pointing fingers at anyone, but this one abovementioned uncouth politician deserves to be singled out, investigated thoroughly and punished.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2011 21:42

x-post...

abhishek_sharma wrote: ..
Everything You Think You Know About the Collapse of the Soviet Union Is Wrong

I think it belongs in this thread. I also think INC realizes the danger from Ramdev/Hazare type of movements to itself.

INC is a pseudo-Left organization and thus suffers from the same lack of cultural/moral basis. It eats the cultural/moral fiber of society. Its adherents commit moral crimes to perpetuate the party.

Hence it too will suffer the fate of the CCCP.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 21:50

^^ Good suggested reading in the link above.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 22 Jun 2011 21:51

NDTV India reporting about a new scam in NTRO which is under PMO. Total amount of scam: Rs 1000cr. The dog bites dog war inside INC is still on....

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 22 Jun 2011 22:04

I see a lot of negative comments about Digvijay Singh here on this forum.

He is simply trying to ingratiate himself with his master - Respected Soniaji and Prime Minster Ready Rahul ji. Sonia and Rahul hate the RSS and Hindu ideologues. They do so for obvious reasons. They are the only entity that can potentially challenge and remove Respected Sonia ji from power. In reality, however, RSS and the Hindus are so weak that they cannot even dislodge this rag tag dispensation that goes by the name of Congress. Someone posted a poll on this thread, where a majority of the so called "Congress base", which I presume, is SC/ST, OBC, non Hindus and just about all anti-nationals, believe that Congress is corrupt, but they still support it and will vote for it. This is the democratic system some of the posters here want to perpetuate.

But there is yet another reason why the RSS and Hindus are weak. And Digvijay Singh himself, may hellish fire be on him, touched on it. He asked, "when BJP was in power for six years, why did it not pass a single anti-corruption bill?" He might have also gone ahead and asked, regardless of any anti-corruption methods, why did BJP, when it was in power in the Center, and almost every state that it has been in power since, with the exception of Gujarat, extremely corrupt ? Advaniji is well known to charge money for even setting up appointments with Congress ministers and is known to have a Swiss bank account. My fellow posters, please dont give me any arguments that they are "less" corrupt than the Congress. Maybe so, but "less corrupt" than the Congress is still plenty corrupt. Besides that is not the point. The point is that by being corrupt, even a little corrupt, although I believe they are plenty corrupt, they, more than Congress have undercut the Hindu movement, the Nationalist movement, the Hindu religion and the entire concept of Hindutva. They have, by following the Congress path, done more damage, because they used Hindutva and Hindu Nationalism and genuine honest believers in those concepts to come to power. They hoodwinked us. Once they got into power, instead of going down fighting, but staying true to their principles, they got into the same game and started giving excuses like, "in order to stay in power, we have to do these thingg", "if we dont stay in power, Congress will be even worse", and "we have to adopt certain Congress tactics to confront the Congress". They basically sold the Hindus down the drain and they did more damage through their governments in 6 years than Congress did in 60 years. Because their rule discredited the Hindu movement and the Nationalist movement and strengthened the thinking that Hindus are corrupt and that Hindus can easily be bought and that Hindus are a soft state who can be attacked with impunity. BJP, by being corrupt exposed the open wound of the Hindus to the whole world, so the world can then pour salt over it.

As for Digvijay Singh. I have known him well for a number of years. In terms of how evil this person personally is, no one on this forum can even fathom. He is a curse.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 22:17

Every nation has its Rasputins!

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 22 Jun 2011 22:20

nataraja wrote: In reality, however, RSS and the Hindus are so weak that they cannot even dislodge this rag tag dispensation that goes by the name of Congress. Someone posted a poll on this thread, where a majority of the so called "Congress base", which I presume, is SC/ST, OBC, non Hindus and just about all anti-nationals, believe that Congress is corrupt, but they still support it and will vote for it. This is the democratic system some of the posters here want to perpetuate.

But there is yet another reason why the RSS and Hindus are weak. And Digvijay Singh himself, may hellish fire be on him, touched on it. He asked, "when BJP was in power for six years, why did it not pass a single anti-corruption bill?" He might have also gone ahead and asked, regardless of any anti-corruption methods, why did BJP, when it was in power in the Center, and almost every state that it has been in power since, with the exception of Gujarat, extremely corrupt ? Advaniji is well known to charge money for even setting up appointments with Congress ministers and is known to have a Swiss bank account. My fellow posters, please dont give me any arguments that they are "less" corrupt than the Congress. Maybe so, but "less corrupt" than the Congress is still plenty corrupt. Besides that is not the point. The point is that by being corrupt, even a little corrupt, although I believe they are plenty corrupt, they, more than Congress have undercut the Hindu movement, the Nationalist movement, the Hindu religion and the entire concept of Hindutva. They have, by following the Congress path, done more damage, because they used Hindutva and Hindu Nationalism and genuine honest believers in those concepts to come to power. They hoodwinked us. Once they got into power, instead of going down fighting, but staying true to their principles, they got into the same game and started giving excuses like, "in order to stay in power, we have to do these thingg", "if we dont stay in power, Congress will be even worse", and "we have to adopt certain Congress tactics to confront the Congress". They basically sold the Hindus down the drain and they did more damage through their governments in 6 years than Congress did in 60 years. Because their rule discredited the Hindu movement and the Nationalist movement and strengthened the thinking that Hindus are corrupt and that Hindus can easily be bought and that Hindus are a soft state who can be attacked with impunity. BJP, by being corrupt exposed the open wound of the Hindus to the whole world, so the world can then pour salt over it.

As for Digvijay Singh. I have known him well for a number of years. In terms of how evil this person personally is, no one on this forum can even fathom. He is a curse.

+1, There is a saying in hindi ' Hamari kashti waha dubi jaha paani kum tha' which essentially means that the sense of betrayal from the BJP has been immense and it seems that they are continuing with the same old same old.Almost everybody who supported BJP knows about INC and its dirty tricks but even at harm to themselves are disgusted with the BJP and are not interested in the 'shirt torn fly open' statements from them..

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 22:37

I am so tempted to post this video here, hope mods will not be annoyed, slightly OT. My point is that "Hindustani Heart" which this song hints at,is so distant in the past,I wonder if in the future we will have such a clean feeling refresh our minds.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdQwPwmsUC0

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Jun 2011 22:46

There was no need for special anti-corruption rule during NDA because there was no special corruption. Beating BJP for not turning into lord Kalki overnight and establishing dharma single handedly all over the world or die trying misses the point --

THERE IS NO ***SOLUTION*** -- there is no ENDGAME.

This is a constant war, must be fought constantly, one battle at a time, forever.

People who are looking to **FOLLOW** some one are going to be disappointed. However if you lend your shoulder to support what ever little war fighting cause that you can in this battle it will help.

Shri Krishna did not wait for the Pandava's to become perfect before he gave them counsul, nor did he worry about loss of morality when he slapped his thighs.

Get over the small stuff folks, the danger is huge.

nataraja · Post by **nataraja** » 22 Jun 2011 22:57

Sanku wrote:There was no need for special anti-corruption rule during NDA because there was no special corruption. Beating BJP for not turning into lord Kalki overnight and establishing dharma single handedly all over the world or die trying misses the point --

THERE IS NO ***SOLUTION*** -- there is no ENDGAME.

This is a constant war, must be fought constantly, one battle at a time, forever.

People who are looking to **FOLLOW** some one are going to be disappointed. However if you lend your shoulder to support what ever little war fighting cause that you can in this battle it will help.

Shri Krishna did not wait for the Pandava's to become perfect before he gave them counsul, nor did he worry about loss of morality when he slapped his thighs.

Get over the small stuff folks, the danger is huge.

First of all, what BJP did is not small stuff.

Secondly, I for one will not lower my expectations. I value Indian life just as much as the Westerners value western life. We Indians are human beings too. We have suffered enough. We work very hard too. We do have some flaws. But all in all, we deserve a good government. We deserve good leadership with is not AT ALL CORRUPT. We deserve security and we deserve self respect.

As painful as it is for me, I even introspect over our own flaws as a people. I want to hold our people to a higher standard too.

Therefore, forgive me, but I will not lower my expectations and keep holding all of us Indians including our leadership to very high standards.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Jun 2011 23:04

nataraja wrote: Therefore, forgive me, but I will not lower my expectations and keep holding all of us Indians including our leadership to very high standards.

Sure please offer two table spoons of ghee from my time next time as you sit around and pray for Lord Kalki to come and rescue us.

You will have better luck in something actually happening than the current line of thought.

Factor that in next time you do deep soul searching and self criticism, that your type of thinking may be actually doing more harm than good. Cheerio, toot, toot...

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 22 Jun 2011 23:12

In todays Hindustan paper, there was a news item where Digvijay Singh said that all the property of Baba Ramdev will be nationalised. That fool should start with the swiss accounts and the gandhi family trusts.How low will Congress go ?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 23:13

Definitely following anyone is out of question for me personally.If I do follow, it is the Gita. I agree about the danger which Sanku points at, it is hidden in the dark planning that goes on constantly in some devilish minds, who are always trying to force their views,and subdue the views of the general public.I also agree with Nataraja in "we deserve a good leadership" and we definitely should get a honest, strong,uncorrupted leadership.On a positive note,lets pray that the truth emerges out of all this that has shaken the country.Its been a series of events apparently unconnected, but the general direction is seen clearly - a cliff - darkness looms on the other side - to jump or not to jump.Peace to India, Indians and to all people seeking light, truth and knowledge.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 22 Jun 2011 23:16

Chinmayanand wrote:In todays Hindustan paper, there was a news item where Digvijay Singh said that all the property of Baba Ramdev will be nationalised. That fool should start with the swiss accounts and the gandhi family trusts.How low will Congress go ?

This is one big fish (or he thinks he is big) trying to eat a smaller fish (he thinks he is small). Bahut kuch hona baki hai.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 22 Jun 2011 23:17

Chinmayanand wrote:In todays Hindustan paper, there was a news item where Digvijay Singh said that all the property of Baba Ramdev will be nationalised. That fool should start with the swiss accounts and the gandhi family trusts.How low will Congress go ?

But Congress is almost like BJP onlee, just saying, and because of TINA they will win.

India does not deserve anything better than Sonia, I really do think some times.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jun 2011 23:19

There is a series of pictures on new Mahabharat starring the 2G scam artists.