India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Jul 2011 10:40

abhik wrote:To be frank it is not hard to imagine that the indigenous content of IN ships is less than that of license manufactured foreign origin arms like the MKIs or T-90s and that of Indian designed LCA and Arjun. So does the IN really deserve more credit?

It deserves credit in designing its own ship and building its own SY which can build these ships.

One can argue IAF has designed far less number of aircraft then IN designed its ship but to be fair designing an aircraft is not the same as designing a ship and much of IN ship design and NDB has relied greatly in inputs from Russian and European designers depending on class of ships they built.

For a mere 13 % of defense budget and the way they utilised it they did a much better job then Army or IAF.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 12 Jul 2011 11:50

Austin wrote:It deserves credit in designing its own ship and building its own SY which can build these ships.
For a mere 13 % of defense budget and the way they utilised it they did a much better job then Army or IAF.

++1, IN has done as sterling job in integrating components from diverse sources, also many of these components have been replaced by same/similar components sourced from other sources. This redundancy will be of immense help if ONE source dries up for some reason. Also the "more bang for the buck" is a major achievement of IN.
Just remember, they have around 100 ships on order (excluding the 30 Cigarette boat order to SL shipyard)

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 12 Jul 2011 18:57

Austin wrote: Most of the components are not made here barring sonars and ESM systems , some components are lic manuf here like LM2500 engine of US ,couple of navigation and FC radar from Russia but a major chunk is directly imported , kirloskar makes some lic engine for ships.

As an eg consider the latest IN frigate from MDL the P-17 , guns from Italy ,missiles from Russia,Israel , IMPS from canada , radars from Israel and Russia , ESM india , sonars Warship technology quotes Russian sonar but could be Indian as well , CIWS russian/israel , SAM Russian , CMS Indo-Russian development , engine LM2500 a lic produce US engine.

Given the fact that the technology for these components do not exist and/or are not manufactured in the country, the IN should be credited with the next best thing they could possibly do. Integrate. Who's responsibility it is to create these components and make it available to the nation is a different discussion. who has responsibility to assure that these capabilities are developed is also a different matter. Let us not continue here as it is OT.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jul 2011 03:10

We have seen Spain feel the pains of a down economy, now:

Debt crisis threatens Italy, one of euro zone’s biggest economies

How will this, if it does, impact the Indian MMRCA decision.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2011 05:46

zilch.. losers are defined by L1.

Suhas H · Post by **Suhas H** » 13 Jul 2011 06:13

IMO India should be in a good position, if Spain and Italy want to reduce their involvement in the program and offer India a good role, the French would sense this and make a better offer.

Either way IAF will be able to get a great deal.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2011 06:50

German Eurofighter at Tactical Leadership Programme in Albacete, Spain
DefPro

15:49 GMT, July 12, 2011 Hallbergmoos | For a period of four weeks, Albacete Air Base in Spain has been the home to three Eurofighter from the Jagdgeschwader 74, based at Neuburg, Germany. The Luftwaffe’s Eurofighters were participating in the Tactical Leadership Programme (TLP) for the first time. This programme is known to be one of the most demanding NATO exercises for flying combat units. Next to the Eurofighter jets were MiG-29s, F-16s, Mirage 2000s, F-4s, Hawks, Alpha-Jets, various helicopter types, transport planes, special units as well as one frigate from the Spanish Navy participating.

In the so called Composite Air Operation (COMAO), the special roles of each weapon system were harmonised in order to gain maximum effectiveness in a complex simulated war scenario. The Bavarian Eurofighters exploited their air dominance capabilities during the exercise to protect other assets from hostile air attacks. The exercise demonstrated that Eurofighter is in a class of its own and the jets were nicknamed “Storm” after a short while, delivering remarkable achievements by showing how agile and dominant they were in their role when compared to other air assets involved in the exercise.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2011 06:53

LIBYA: 15TH FRENCH JET MADE EMERGENCY LANDING IN MALTA

(AGI) La Valletta - Once again, two French military aircraft were forced to an emergency landing in Malta after a raid over Libya. Maltese civil aviation authorities report so. Since the bombings began, on 19 March, this is the fifteenth time French fighter-bombers - usually Mirage and Rafale aircraft - have been forced to an emergency landing in La Valletta.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Jul 2011 07:59

Must be the air over Libya. Rafales do not like it at all.

Spain sh1tting bricks. Italy ................... what can you say. Hope they survive.

India better reopen the MMRCA bidding. (ducking for cover.) Get those MiG-2935 (at least we know where they rust.)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2011 08:25

emergency landing does not mean a crash landing or a engine on fire kind of situation. i dont think any of these 15 are of that nature or for that matter any nato a.c involved in this op had crash landed barring the lone F-15E near benghazi.

people just err on the side of caution and there would be lots of alarms that pre-warn the pilot to head for the runway.

compare that to increased tempo of IAF ops during parakram...there were crashes...old a/c do not stand up well to day in and day out ops ....

the EF exercise just demoed what we already know - its a great interceptor and air cover . whats telling is the silence about its strike role if any in this exercise

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jul 2011 08:28

No strike, then the offer is buy 1, get 1 free. It is not worth it.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Jul 2011 14:54

IAF to brief Lockheed Martin

The IAF is expected to brief Lockheed Martin Tuesday in detail about the reasons of their exclusion for which the request is understood to have been made by the US government, defence sources told PTI here.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/IAF-to-bri ... /3/13.html

Kovy · Post by **Kovy** » 13 Jul 2011 21:05

NRao wrote:Must be the air over Libya. Rafales do not like it at all.

Spain sh1tting bricks. Italy ................... what can you say. Hope they survive.

India better reopen the MMRCA bidding. (ducking for cover.) Get those MiG-2935 (at least we know where they rust.)

Note that it was 2 Mirage 2000. The emergency landing was due to the fact that one of them broke its refueling probe while refueling.

The French air force fighters have logged more than 2700 war sorties above Libya which is more than 6000 inflight refuelings in 4 months (more than 50/day)
With such a rate, it is perfectly normal to have some (minor) accidents from time to time.

Krishnakg · Post by **Krishnakg** » 13 Jul 2011 23:36

Pics of Eurofighter refueling over Libya. The refuelling operation was above the Mediterranean sea as part of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (Nato) Unified Protector operation over Libya. Deploying probes from their noses to connect with the hose some 7,600 meters (25,000 feet) above the sea, the aircraft cruised at 300 knots (555 kilometers per hour) before separating less than 10 minutes later.

A British Typhoon jet (L) and Eurofighter approach a Canadian Boeing CC-150 Polaris in-flight refueller tanker aircraft (not pictured).

A British Eurofighter jet approaches approach a Canadian Boeing CC-150 Polaris in-flight refueller tanker aircraft (not pictured).

Checkout the weapon load-out.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 14 Jul 2011 01:50

NRao wrote:We have seen Spain feel the pains of a down economy, now:

Debt crisis threatens Italy, one of euro zone’s biggest economies

How will this, if it does, impact the Indian MMRCA decision.

That in turn will affect France with over €472bn in exposure to Italy, or about three times the French exposure to Greece.. And then we have the exposure to Spain...

Things aren't looking good with the EMU countries for the moment..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jul 2011 02:21

So, they have agreed to pay $43M per a/c upgrade cost on M2K, and mostly it is avionics, rdy-2 radar, and mica missiles. Now, if that is cheap, the Ef2K is dead cheap.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Jul 2011 02:50

http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 9&Itemid=2

EADS inks Letters of Intent with India's Dynamatic, Maini Precision, TAML

Bangalore: EADS has extended the scope of the company's technology licensing outreach with new industrial partners in India with three Letters of Intent (LoIs) with three Indian companies for metallic and composite manufacturing processes. These accords were inked during last month’s Paris Air Show.

"We now see a build-up in the Indian supply chain, which wants to become more capable and innovative – not only in supporting Indian aircraft programmes, but in the export market as well," said Wulf Hoeflich, who leads the EADS Technology Licensing initiative.

The Letters of Intent with India underscore the country’s ambition to evolve as a strong aerospace player, which has become a priority after the Indian government’s step to privatize the aerospace sector.

The Letters of Intent signed at the Paris Air Show were with:

- India’s Dynamatic Technologies Limited, for metallic manufacturing processes such as friction stir welding, as well as EADS patented composites production technologies. This will be supported by an EADS engineering services package.

- Maini Precision Products Pvt. Ltd of India for metallic and composites technologies, backed by an EADS engineering services package.

- Tata Advanced Materials Limited, covering a broad range of composites and related manufacturing processes, including the EADS-developed and patented Vacuum Assisted Process (VAP) and protective coatings for composite tools. An engineering services package is included in the scope of this Letter of Intent.

The agreements were arranged by the EADS Technology Licensing initiative, which is managed by EADS’ Corporate Technology Office and has the company’s top management support in offering a full range of leading-edge technologies that are proven, mature and available today.

Several of the accords will benefit from engineering and application studies organised by the EADS Technology Licensing initiative, which provides assistance to industry partners in identifying business cases and tailoring a technology offer that is best adapted to customers’ specific needs. This supplemental engineering support is offered to facilitate a smooth transfer of the licensed technology into customers’ products and manufacturing processes.

“Our new agreements underscore EADS’ ability to provide highly valuable technologies in both metallic and composites production, which will be applied to the aerospace industry as well as other sectors such as automotive and industrial equipment,” said Wulf Hoeflich.

In addition to these accords with Indian companies, EADS inked a LOI and a contract with Germany’s Grenzebach Automation GmbH for metallic production technologies based on the friction stir welding solid-state joining process.

The licensing contract provides Grenzebach Automation GmbH with access to EADS Innovation Works’ technologies for the friction stir welding solid-state joining process, including utilisation of EADS patented tools that provide a high-quality weld surface and eliminate the requirement for post-weld machining.

This agreement’s scope addresses the application of friction stir welding technologies in production by Grenzebach Automation, which is part of the Grenzebach group of companies with production facilities worldwide.

The EADS Group – comprising Airbus, Astrium, Cassidian and Eurocopter – generated revenues of € 45.8 billion and employed a workforce of nearly 122,000.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 14 Jul 2011 03:51

$43 million per aircraft? Even if that includes the bribes it is insane. That's more than the price of a brand new LCA. And how will the upgraded 30 year old M2000 be better than the LCA ? Are the people behind these decisions crazy or crazy like a fox

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jul 2011 04:59

Not my intention to raise the BP any further, but, there is another $1.5 BILLION for ammo and facilities.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Jul 2011 08:33

Simply amazing,upgrading 52 Mirages for approx $4 billion,while upgrading 60+ MIG-29s costs only $1 billion,that too the MIG-29 which was proven the better air combat aircraft in IAF secret one-on-one exercises (AM Masand in Vayu) some time ago.Even top brass IAF officers have questioned the wisdom of such an expensive upgrade when we could've bought the same number of any of 3 of the dumped candidates for the MMRCA deal,brand new aircraft and their weaponry,which would've lasted us for double the time (40 years) of the to-be upgraded Mirages.There is a huge smell of rotting fish here-is this a QPQ (quid-pro-quo) to Sarko for favours not in the public domain?

PS:This could be one method by which the Rafale's price will be found to be clearly below the Typhoon's,"allowing" it to win the "battle of the budget" and winning the MMRCA deal,a devious strategy of substantially overpricing the M-2000 upgrade .If you compare the costs of the two upgrades,MIG-29 for 60+ aircraft ($1B) and M-2000 for 50+ aircraft ($$B) at a staggering 400% of the cost of the MIG-29,the matter becomes extremely clear.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 10:10

shukla wrote:IAF to brief Lockheed Martin

The two aircraft were offered to the IAF through the Foreign Military Sales route in which the supplier of military hardware is the US government itself.

I don't know why this article says something blatantly false, MMRCA was no FMS deal like the C17 deal, it was a pure commercial bud by Lockheed and Boeing. Also didn't these briefings happen long ago? what am I missing here?

mikehurst · Post by **mikehurst** » 14 Jul 2011 10:56

With regard to the Mirage upgrade deal:

Maybe all they are trying to do is set the ground for announcing Euro-Fighter as the winning candidate. To assuage the French a Mirage deal and the second submarine line deal.

Though i do not personally think much of this "need to care for hurt feelings" idea.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 14 Jul 2011 11:30

a beautiful display of the Rafale at Paris airshow. check out the short takeoff....

http://tv.dassault-aviation.com/web/c-1 ... -2011.html

images : http://photos.dassault-aviation.com/gal ... 1=&lang=en

arthuro,

what is the summary of the commentary heard on the video?? can you briefly sum it up?? thanks.

X posting from 'indian mil thread' -

INteresting development for sure - could mean that the Rafale is a shoo-in OR that it has been booted out! I am increasingly thinking, contrary to what i earlier believed, that it is first option - they would not have waited that long to give the M2k upg a green light otherwise.

CM

you know CM, i was thinking exactly like you till Singha pointed out to me the MICA part of the deal which will only strengthen the Rafale shooing in!!

the upgrade support infra being set up for M2K will greatly benefit the Rafale line IMO with partly common jigs/tools. IOW part of Rafale infra may be being taken of with this(?) besides simplifying the maintainence and support infra with common tools/equipment for both M2K and Rafale. that apart (partly) common spares and the main factor - armaments.

overall the acquisition and operational cost of Rafale in the long term would be substantially lower vis a vis EF due to the above factors, i guess.

yes, i am increasingly coming around to the beleif that it indeed is Rafale!!

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 14 Jul 2011 11:37

devesh wrote:http://machinist.in/index.php?option=co ... 9&Itemid=2

EADS inks Letters of Intent with India's Dynamatic, Maini Precision, TAML

Bangalore: EADS has extended the scope of the company's technology licensing outreach with new industrial partners in India with three Letters of Intent (LoIs) with three Indian companies for metallic and composite manufacturing processes. These accords were inked during last month’s Paris Air Show.

"We now see a build-up in the Indian supply chain, which wants to become more capable and innovative – not only in supporting Indian aircraft programmes, but in the export market as well," said Wulf Hoeflich, who leads the EADS Technology Licensing initiative.

The Letters of Intent with India underscore the country’s ambition to evolve as a strong aerospace player, which has become a priority after the Indian government’s step to privatize the aerospace sector.

The Letters of Intent signed at the Paris Air Show were with:

- India’s Dynamatic Technologies Limited, for metallic manufacturing processes such as friction stir welding, as well as EADS patented composites production technologies. This will be supported by an EADS engineering services package.

- Maini Precision Products Pvt. Ltd of India for metallic and composites technologies, backed by an EADS engineering services package.

- Tata Advanced Materials Limited, covering a broad range of composites and related manufacturing processes, including the EADS-developed and patented Vacuum Assisted Process (VAP) and protective coatings for composite tools. An engineering services package is included in the scope of this Letter of Intent.

The agreements were arranged by the EADS Technology Licensing initiative, which is managed by EADS’ Corporate Technology Office and has the company’s top management support in offering a full range of leading-edge technologies that are proven, mature and available today.

Several of the accords will benefit from engineering and application studies organised by the EADS Technology Licensing initiative, which provides assistance to industry partners in identifying business cases and tailoring a technology offer that is best adapted to customers’ specific needs. This supplemental engineering support is offered to facilitate a smooth transfer of the licensed technology into customers’ products and manufacturing processes.

“Our new agreements underscore EADS’ ability to provide highly valuable technologies in both metallic and composites production, which will be applied to the aerospace industry as well as other sectors such as automotive and industrial equipment,” said Wulf Hoeflich.

In addition to these accords with Indian companies, EADS inked a LOI and a contract with Germany’s Grenzebach Automation GmbH for metallic production technologies based on the friction stir welding solid-state joining process.

The licensing contract provides Grenzebach Automation GmbH with access to EADS Innovation Works’ technologies for the friction stir welding solid-state joining process, including utilisation of EADS patented tools that provide a high-quality weld surface and eliminate the requirement for post-weld machining.

This agreement’s scope addresses the application of friction stir welding technologies in production by Grenzebach Automation, which is part of the Grenzebach group of companies with production facilities worldwide.

The EADS Group – comprising Airbus, Astrium, Cassidian and Eurocopter – generated revenues of € 45.8 billion and employed a workforce of nearly 122,000.

If the Typhoon doesn't get selected, let's see if these LOIs turn into agreements. The wooing has to continue.

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 14 Jul 2011 16:23

mikehurst wrote:With regard to the Mirage upgrade deal:

Maybe all they are trying to do is set the ground for announcing Euro-Fighter as the winning candidate. To assuage the French a Mirage deal and the second submarine line deal. Though i do not personally think much of this "need to care for hurt feelings" idea.

I beg to differ. Now with a good a amount of the support equipment/weapons package offloaded into the Mirage "upgrade", Rafale is definately L1. 43mill without new engines and AESA frontend upgrade for the radar, oh really ? Compare that to proposed F-16 upgrade packages, that include SABR or RACR.
That is no Mirage upgrade, it's part of the Rafale acquisition costs transfered into a different budget.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 14 Jul 2011 16:33

or its got something to do with M2000-N type of systems and support environments?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 14 Jul 2011 18:00

EADS is promising to have composites and materials manufacturing facilities in India. this is huge. if MoD is really interested in developing indigenous aerospace industry to the point where several of them can get together and build a modern fighter jet, then EF is the way to go. and it seems to me like India will become a partner in the Typhoon program. I personally think EF will be a huge boost for Indian MIl-industrial complex, like nothing the Rafale could offer. I seriously hope the top brass is paying attention to this.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 14 Jul 2011 20:42

devesh wrote:EADS is promising to have composites and materials manufacturing facilities in India. this is huge. if MoD is really interested in developing indigenous aerospace industry to the point where several of them can get together and build a modern fighter jet, then EF is the way to go. and it seems to me like India will become a partner in the Typhoon program. I personally think EF will be a huge boost for Indian MIl-industrial complex, like nothing the Rafale could offer. I seriously hope the top brass is paying attention to this.

The Problem in Eurofighter program for India is we would only become a spoke in the wheel, India wants its OWN WHEEL

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jul 2011 21:09

Lalmohan wrote:or its got something to do with M2000-N type of systems and support environments?

Lalchix Garu, what does the N variant have that makes it so expensive? And what is with the loong time line - 9 years?

For this kind of price/time, IAF should get M2ks with RBE 2 AESA (bigger than the one in Rafale), GE 414 EPE/AL 31, OSF NG, Spectra. That might make it worthwhile - otherwise getting uber 90s fighters in 2020 when the world around us is hooking up with AESA and gen 5 tech is pathetic.

CM.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 15 Jul 2011 06:18

The Tejas mk2 will be a superior aircraft for less than modernizing a 30 year old M2000. That says it all. I pray someone raises an objection about corruption in this deal. If dire needs like artillery purchases can be delayed ad nauseum in such a manner this sinking deal should be similarly delayed. Delaying this a few years will make the deal obsolete. Buy more tejas mk2s, buy more than 126 rafales but for God's sake $hitcan this deal which with weopans and upgrading of facilities at HAL will break the $4billion mark.

We don't have the money to give GTRE testing facilities in India but can shell out this kind of money for this?

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 15 Jul 2011 08:11

Shrinivasan ji,

if India gets to manufacture EADS's patented composites and materials tech, then that effectively means that we have a stake in the program. EADS wouldn't agree to basically teach local companies how to replicate and produce patented processes and products, if they thought of India as simply being a client country. what EADS is saying is, Typhoon won't simply be assembled in India, in fact, Typhoon will be MADE is India. that is why they're making tie ups to produce the airframe itself.

unless Rafale comes up with something similar, MoD top brass will pick EF (assuming that indigenous development is a top priority).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jul 2011 09:10

Didn't MoD decide already on the M2K upgrade even though it costs crazy. So, what does that say?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Jul 2011 09:26

Rafale's Multirole Capability
AviationWeek

(posting full)

French air force and navy Rafale F3 combat aircraft are touted as true “omnirole fighters.” Military officials say there are multirole fighters that conduct reconnaissance, air-to-air combat, air-to-surface attack or deterrence, but only one at a time. The F3 can perform all in a single mission, they maintain

Stephane Reb, Rafale program manager at French procurement agency DGA, explains: “The intention from the outset [with the F3] was to have a joint and omnirole fighter to replace all other aircraft in the air force.”

Indeed, when it comes to air-to-air combat, he says the F3 takes the place of the Mirage 2000 RDI and Mirage 2000-5. For deterrence it replaces the Mirage 2000N. In air-to-ground attack it replaces the SEM, Mirage 2000D and Mirage F1 CT, and for reconnaissance the Mirage F1 CR. “By 2015 we will have only the Rafale and Mirage 2000D in our fleet, and by 2030 only the Rafale,” Reb says.

Dassault Aviation was from the outset tasked with designing one plane that could fulfill all of these roles and remain in service for 40-50 years. The F1 version, delivered to the Aeronavale in 2004, only had air-to-air combat capability. The F2, delivered to the air force at St. Dizier in 2006, introduced the Scalp cruise missile, AASM air-to-surface missile, IR MICA infrared air-to-air missile, NATO L16 data link and front-sensor optronics.

The F3, first delivered in July 2008, is the F2 plus the ASMP-A advanced air-to-surface medium-range nuclear missile, Exocet AM39 antiship missile and RECO-NG (Areos) reconnaissance pod. “Two Rafales are equivalent to two Mirage 2000-5 fighters and four Mirage 2000D aircraft with respect to payload,” says a senior Rafale pilot identified for security reasons as Junior. In operations over Libya, using fewer aircraft reduces the complexity of the raids and the refuelling plan. (For a story on AWACS air operations over Libya, see p. 21.)

The F3-04T version currently under development is the F3 plus active, electronically scanned array radar (with capabilities that include detection of low-signature targets), a new-generation missile-warning system and front-sensor optronics with improved technology.

The 10 F1 versions already delivered will be upgraded to F3, Reb says. The F2s have already been upgraded.

France’s strategy is to stretch out Rafale production, at the record slow rate of one aircraft per month, while fully funding upgrades and seeking export contracts. Production is secured until 2019. The 100th aircraft is due for delivery in September. Ultimately, the air force will have 228 Rafale B (twin-seat) and C (single-seat) aircraft, while the navy will have 58 single-seat aircraft.

The DGA says that production of the aircraft will continue to 2025, when the mid-life upgrade begins. Until then, Reb says the aircraft’s architecture will allow it to remain at a “top level of performance and interoperability” without major hardware changes.

Even improvements to the M88 engine to turn it into the M88‑4E—with lower maintenance of key parts and a 30% increase in the life of the high-pressure turbine—can be introduced piece-by-piece. The first M88-4E will be delivered in November and be the base configuration of the Rafale engine.

Pilots flying the Rafale over Libya and Afghanistan are pleased with its performance. Junior says the Rafale “allows the observation, orientation, decision and action loop to be drastically reduced because we can act in the cockpit.” He notes that “over Libya we’re omnirole: While your recce is working by itself, you’re scanning the skies and sending pictures to other aircraft. With one trigger pull of the AASM you can hit six targets simultaneously, in all weather and day or night.”

Junior says the cockpit displays are intuitive. “It takes a Mirage pilot just 30 minutes to understand them the first time,” he remarks, adding that “you can select what information you receive. I like a relatively silent cockpit, which I can have and yet be fully part of the network-centric warfare.”

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 Jul 2011 13:03

Shrinivasan wrote:didn't these briefings happen long ago? what am I missing here?

IAF briefs Lockheed Martin on MMRCA deal

"We had a meeting this week with the IAF to learn about the reasons for our aircraft being non-compliant in the deal," Lockheed Martin's Vice president Orville Prins told reporters here Thursday. He said such a meeting would help the company prepare itself in a better manner for future competitions. The request for the debriefing was made by the US Government, which had offered the aircraft to the Indian establishment through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In April, India had shortlisted Dassault and Eurofighter for 126 Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) deal and excluded the two American companies including Boeing along with Russian MiG Corporation and Swedish Saab Gripen.

Asked if he was satisfied with the explanation given by the IAF, Prins said, "We are satisfied that we had the meeting and we could ask questions." Commenting on the two shortlisted aircraft, he said, "I think Eurofighter and Rafale were evaluated as per the provisions of the DPP-06 which I understand says that in order to be shortlisted, the equipment should be fully compliant without any waivers."

The IAF had evaluated the six competitors on 660 parameters; Prins said adding that if waivers were to be granted to the aircraft, "I don't know where to draw the line." Asked if the short listing of the two aircraft was a political decision, he said, "I think it was a political plus decision", which was a usual practice world over.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 15 Jul 2011 16:18

http://www.sify.com/technology/airshow- ... adcie.html

Without the helmet, pilots have to point the nose of their jet towards the target until they can see it in the HUD. With it, they can aim at enemy jets anywhere in the sky around them.

Costing about 250,000 pounds ($400,100) apiece, the helmets will be deployed in all Typhoons, of which Eurofighter has delivered 278 to six air forces and has orders for 429 more.

Old article, sure are very costly helmets, also says each is tailor made for every pilot, so what if pilots change?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Jul 2011 16:24

pilots have their own kit - even g-suits are fitted

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Jul 2011 17:51

I agree entirely with Tejas.We can spend like billionaires-$4 billion to be precise to upgrade an '80s vintage aircraft ,50+ in number,when a superior MIG-29 upgrade for 60+ aircraft costs only 25% of this deal? With three of the contenders of the MMRCA deal coming in at a figure of $40-50M apiece ,we could've had about 80 new 4++ gen aircrtaft instead,which would have twice the lifespan of the M-2000s and still pursued a limited upgrade of the M-2000s as was done with the Sea Harriers for about $10m per plane! Or as Tejas has rightly said,financed a whole new engine development centre in India (B'lore) with testing facilities which many senior figures in Indian aviation/IAF have been pleading for for decades.

I predict that this deal is going to backfire in time to come to haunt it as Bofors did when the UPA govt. is dumped by the voters..

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Jul 2011 19:12

^^

.. jee, if our voters are that advanced like you think here, then we would have different style of future ahead. The numbers are feeble to muster any understanding on the scale of corruption that happens on the other side - from 2g to rosatti-gs. it is funny you bring that argument here.

however, it is important to highlight that this m2k upgrade is mixed with mica missiles, and we have no clue what is the real cost., and if some one do the break up, then some thing can bring some light on these dark matters.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 01:44

devesh wrote:if India gets to manufacture EADS's patented composites and materials tech, then that effectively means that we have a stake in the program. unless Rafale comes up with something similar, MoD top brass will pick EF (assuming that indigenous development is a top priority).

a Letter Of Intent has been signed, this means nothing about manufacturing in India. I don't have finger to count the number of MOUs Lockheed Martin and Boeing signed in the run-up to AI2011, all this is not worth the paper it is printed on now as both these companies are out of MMRCA. EF has pulled together these LOI hoping to get the MMRCA, Offset proposals have been submitted already so I wonder how this new LOI would help EF.
MOD secretaries are not going to be poring over newspapers and trade rags to lookup how many LOIs / MOUs these tow organizations have singed or thinking about signing.

The problem with EF is pretty simple, there are four countries which are manufacturing a plane together... with multiple factories/companies in these countries doing the work. There are suppliers in 11 other countries supplying parts to the EF consortium. Where does HAL fit in this manufacturing wheel.
How is EF going to meet its 33% (or is it 50%) OFFSET requirement to meet India requirement. I haven't seen any announcement addressing this. Just couple of days back, there was a news about Inviting Japan to join the EF Consortium... Is India also going to be invited like this? is that what MMRCA contract envisaged? only time will tell.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 16 Jul 2011 01:48

Philip wrote:I agree entirely with Tejas.We can spend like billionaires-$4 billion to be precise to upgrade an '80s vintage aircraft ,50+ in number,when a superior MIG-29 upgrade for 60+ aircraft costs only 25% of this deal?
I predict that this deal is going to backfire in time to come to haunt it as Bofors did when the UPA govt. is dumped by the voters..

The first M2K entered IAF service in 1984-85, the last set of 10 were added in 2004-05. So IAF airframes are not that old. We spent money couple of years back to upgrade out Mig-27s which are far less capable and older.

ACM Naik clearly stated the rationale for upgrading the M2Ks, they are one of the most capable platforms available with the IAF in good numbers. So no harm in making it better. This is more so important with dwindling SQ #s. Become MOST appropriate if IAF & MOD are already gravitating towards selecting the RAFALE.
I am not even going to respond to the CT posted...