Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jun 2011 16:21

There are limits to which a horse can power up to given mechanical and structural characteristics. If Kaveri could reach 95-100kN wet (which is about 414 has), imo it should be good enough and added to the new eco-nomoical tech spins, should increase loiter range.

btw, Kaveri DOES require flat rated feature for Indian conditions. If we don't require that, then why reinvent the wheel(meaning joint ventures) - Snecma is not going to go knowledge dumping here.. they are here to learn as well for the new sets of data, IAF operates on day to day.

Now, you see why IAF does not like Snecma making inroads here.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 13 Jun 2011 17:50

Singha wrote:why would Tejas need an engine with the thrust of AL31. thats more appropriate for a much heavier plane in the F-16-block60 category?

Exactly. I am not sure if the airframe can even withstand it. A thrust of 98KN would give the Tejas an impressive T/W ratio. Folks should realize that a 120KN GE engine would consume more fuel than a 98KN one and thus reduce the endurance. It is just not required.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jun 2011 19:16

the 120kN is sivab injection theory, cleverly interlaced between two news articles.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 13 Jun 2011 19:52

saik: GE has demonstrated F414-EPE with 20% more thrust than F414-400. When they said highest thrust F414, I assumed its some version of that. In the end "highest thrust" was just a mktg gimmick.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 13 Jun 2011 19:57

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:why would Tejas need an engine with the thrust of AL31. thats more appropriate for a much heavier plane in the F-16-block60 category?
Exactly. I am not sure if the airframe can even withstand it. A thrust of 98KN would give the Tejas an impressive T/W ratio. Folks should realize that a 120KN GE engine would consume more fuel than a 98KN one and thus reduce the endurance. It is just not required.

EPE is actually said to decrease sfc by 1 % while increasing power by 20 %. Refer the boeing presentation linked by sivab.

It is important to note that 414-400 started testing in 1993 (or about 2 decades ago). Advancements in materials and combustion and flow processes since then will impart significant benefits to the engine performance and sfc.

Wiki lists INS6 at 120 kN !!! Could someone get a clearer answer from some Chaiwalas.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jun 2011 20:21

higher thrust usually needs more air, which usually means intake enlargement as the french are proposing for M88-9 UAE idea for 1.5cm wider...and though it sounds small the french say it will need a lot of testing and customer has to foot some of the bill.

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 13 Jun 2011 21:18

Wiki lists INS6 at 120 kN !!! Could someone get a clearer answer from some Chaiwalas.

wiki article is a stub!!besides we havent seen a single legit source claiming INS6 to be around 120 kN.as sivab pointed out its just a marketing gimmick.if it was indeed the 120 KN engine,trust me,GE would be the first one to come out and declare it and boasts how it provides almost 30KN more mil power than their europeans counterparts.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Jun 2011 21:29

we could think about divertless inlets for supersonic flows, and for take offs, and internal (like pak-fa), have a variable geometric vane controls (similar to exhaust) to adjust the right flow.. would require quite a bit of control law testing though, but entirely possible.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 14 Jun 2011 04:39

I am not too familiar with this topic of Kn.

However, may be the following article provides some clues?

2009 :: Indian Defence Ministry plans to revive Tejas

The Eurojet EJ200 and the GE F-414 engines generate a thrust of 95-100 Kilo Newton, which meets the IAF’s requirements.

F414
In 2006, GE has tested an Enhanced Durability Engine (EDE) with an advanced core which can provide a 15% thrust increase or longer life without the thrust increase. It has a six-stage, high-pressure compressor and an advanced high-pressure turbine. GE has tested the new high-pressure compressor and a two-stage advanced fan. These components with the advanced core could yield 20% increase in thrust over the current F414 and final growth step would produce an engine with 30% more thrust than the F414 - just under 29,000 lbf (130 kN).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Jun 2011 09:02

I am advancing the Kaveri materials article to today. Stay tuned.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2011 09:19

imo the 29000lb thrust F414 version might be useful for the F-18 given its weight and wing issues...but if we a good engine around 100KN dont see why its not enough for a light a/c like Tejas

the AMCA will need a pair of higher thrust engines because internal bay drives a boxy jsfish fuselage that will increase weight and we will likely go for a 2 seater config given its strike orientation. so either this kaveri-snecma 100KN thing will need to be modified upward or a newer design element introduced. we should no let engine drive down AMCA size compromise...keep enough room for everything internal rather than podded.

whatever the case, I think we should stick to kaveri-snecma even if its 95% of EJ220/414EDE and costs higher, because the design and manufacturing skills gained by making a engine inhouse are priceless as are the relations built with parts suppliers and institutions in europe and elsewhere.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 14 Jun 2011 09:23

Yup, Tejas should do fine with 10 ton engine so long as the keep empty weight close to the 6500kg mark imho, better than most single engined birds out there including the vaunted F-16 blk50+.

CM.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 14 Jun 2011 09:31

Indian developments in materials for Military Aero Gas turbines

All thanks to akimalik @ BRF for his efforts.

akimalik · Post by **akimalik** » 14 Jun 2011 10:53

talking about DSI and inlets and the works, I have a question:
As explained by seniors DSI has its pros and cons.
One of the cons of the DSI concept is its inability to change shape (perhaps that is also what makes it a simple and attractive alternative).
But what if we try to overcome that using Shape Memory alloys?
that way we can modify the shape of the DSI to pre-planned shapes depending on the air-flow needs.

Something to this effect is already done for the exhaust sections of the dreamliner's engines:
http://www.boeing.com/news/frontiers/ar ... _sf07.html

Something more on SMAs:
http://webdocs.cs.ualberta.ca/~database ... /flap.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jun 2011 11:05

is it true that DSIs only work for planes flying upto around Mach1.8 like F-solah/JSF/JF17 ? I also read same is true for splitter plates as seen on Tejas/Jaguar etc.

allegedly for planes wanting to fly beyond that speed, they need in additional to a DSI/splitter plate in front, a system like M2K moveable cone or ability to change the x-section of the inlet somewhere inside like F15/MKI/Mig29/F22....

EF/Rafale looks like a combo of splitter plate and ability to shape change the inlet interior.

for RCS purpose maybe a DSI, and a deeply blended inlet like Rafale or some of the new UCAVs with S-duct/Y-duct is best.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 14 Jun 2011 14:22

Even though redundant and obvious just wanted to put this down

Single Crystal -> Directionally solidified -> Equi-axis

Equi axis already qualified
Directionally solidified under qualification/to start qualification
Single Crystal batch quantities, qualification after DS is qualified

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Jun 2011 17:18

For frontal RCS, Rafale inlets looks good in the sense of having to reflect off the nose cone extenders rather a inlet rebound. However, like pak-fa, the advanced wanes could actually deflect or permeate the waves and guide them off for return.

Current LCA has no such problem for RCS in the sense the Y duct is too darn stealthy, but only have to focus on DSI if required or variable geo control vanes for dog fights flow regime[/imo/assumptions on supersonic requirements].

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Jul 2011 20:23

Chacko,
Waiting for Ti updates you promised.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Jul 2011 21:19

Neela,

I forgot. Can you please point out the post and the discussion. I will start working on it.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Jul 2011 12:56

chackojoseph wrote:Neela,

I forgot. Can you please point out the post and the discussion. I will start working on it.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 04 Jul 2011 14:48

chackojoseph wrote:Neela,

I forgot. Can you please point out the post and the discussion. I will start working on it.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 1#p1107891

Cheers....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Jul 2011 16:03

The Ti development for Aero Engine is mentioned here. Actually, no one discussed it. It thought it was too technical and hence decided to lower the technical part in future articles.

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines

Suresh_Shyam · Post by **Suresh_Shyam** » 04 Jul 2011 16:26

is that still kaveri tested in Gromov Flight Research Center?.Could some one tells what's the status of kaveri

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 04 Jul 2011 17:05

http://www.inewsone.com/2011/05/02/kave ... ssia/47679

It completed Phase I of trials in May 2011?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 04 Jul 2011 23:11

chackojoseph wrote:The Ti development for Aero Engine is mentioned here. Actually, no one discussed it. It thought it was too technical and hence decided to lower the technical part in future articles.

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines

Chacko, Please add this to your "Chacko Corner" has loads of valuable information. I have never even heard of SIFL. What was more interesting is to see SIFL's customers for Titanium products... Developing a Mil-Ind complex is not easy, it takes time... but it will happen only if we persist.

I remember how long BHEL Trichy took to create an Anxilliary Industry eco-system to supply quality components and to take up jobs...

Small Industries like SIFL are Vital cogs of this wheel called Mil-Ind Complex

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Jul 2011 13:29

A bit of education on how turbine jet engines work

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 07 Jul 2011 13:42

vina wrote:
thammu wrote: outlines the offsets including a High Altitude Engine Test Facility and Trisonic Wind Tunnel Facility valued at $510 million, for the Defence Research & Development Organisation.
.

They should model the facility based on TSAGI the legendary aero engine test center in Russia.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Jul 2011 16:35

Shrinivasan wrote: Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines
Chacko, Please add this to your "Chacko Corner" has loads of valuable information. I have never even heard of SIFL. What was more interesting is to see SIFL's customers for Titanium products... Developing a Mil-Ind complex is not easy, it takes time... but it will happen only if we persist.

I remember how long BHEL Trichy took to create an Anxilliary Industry eco-system to supply quality components and to take up jobs...

Small Industries like SIFL are Vital cogs of this wheel called Mil-Ind Complex

[/quote]

Its already there. SIFL has HAL, ISRO, OFB and DRDO as its major customers. Even Brahmos Aerospace in its earlier avatar was a Kerala state govt concern. All such precision items are manufactured in Kerala, As ISRO has already worked with them.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 07 Jul 2011 19:48

Chacko-ji have the tests in Gromov culminated ? it has been 9 months since we started(it was in Nov last year IIRC)

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 07 Jul 2011 20:57

chackojoseph wrote:The Ti development for Aero Engine is mentioned here. Actually, no one discussed it. It thought it was too technical and hence decided to lower the technical part in future articles.

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines

It is about presentation and not about technical complexities.

The articles looks like reading HAL newsletter but thanks for sharing such information. Continue to do so in future as well.

Just confirms the progressing we made in this front. To simplify - we are almost reached there in every front.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Jul 2011 21:22

suryag wrote:Chacko-ji have the tests in Gromov culminated ? it has been 9 months since we started(it was in Nov last year IIRC)

Since the air in Russia is more expensive, inflation, it will take more funds/time and the new end date is 2012.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Jul 2011 21:30

suryag wrote:Chacko-ji have the tests in Gromov culminated ? it has been 9 months since we started(it was in Nov last year IIRC)

In May, it passed just 20 hours. Approx 60 - 80 hrs may be required.

Kanson wrote:The Ti development for Aero Engine is mentioned here. Actually, no one discussed it. It thought it was too technical and hence decided to lower the technical part in future articles.

Indian Developments in Materials for Military Aero Engines

It is about presentation and not about technical complexities.

The articles looks like reading HAL newsletter but thanks for sharing such information. Continue to do so in future as well.

Just confirms the progressing we made in this front. To simplify - we are almost reached there in every front.

Please make it James Bondish.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Jul 2011 22:59

^ You want Roger Moore/Pierce Brosnan types or Daniel Craig type ?

My interlude is to encourage you to attempt more such, what you consider as high technical stuff. We don't see such article often. Thanks for the understanding.

To me there are some clarity issues to fully understand and get oneself engrossed in the article. Some of them:

a. The article prepped the reader's interest with the title of talking about materials of Aero Engine. The section is introduced as "primary alloys used in gas turbines are being manufactured at MIDHANI". But it introduced materials for Space and Missiles and the about LCA after Kaveri and then about MIG and Su-30. I'm confused whether the materials introduced were for engines or for airframes.

b. Under the Forgings section, after the introduction of turbine discs, the news is about fan discs.

c. After the tantalizing information of Disc made from Alloy Ti834 which is described as new development meant to withstand 600°C there is no information to know its significance of why it was developed. Nor the article explains where the disc is used(turbine/fan/comp).

d. After the listing of materials Ti-29A and BS-347 as part of Kaveri engine, no where there is any reference or information about them throughout the article while heading of the article reads as "Materials for Aero Engines".

In my view, if an ordinary joe can understand at the least half of such tech article and if the mood after reading is positive consistent with the theme, then the article is a success.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Jul 2011 00:12

++1

if an ordinary joe can understand at the least half of such tech article and if the mood after reading is positive consistent with the theme, then the article is a success.

I am an average 6 packer.. and everything else is OT.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 07 Aug 2011 14:44

Railways keen on using Kaveri engines developed by DRDO: Parliamentary Committee

In its report tabled in Parliament last week, the Committee said the DRDO has plans of producing Kaveri engine in large number in collaboration with Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Aug 2011 14:53

would not driving mechanical shafts and drive trains and transmission need a different kind of torque and thrust and nothing to do with aerodynamics?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Aug 2011 15:15

SaiK wrote:would not driving mechanical shafts and drive trains and transmission need a different kind of torque and thrust and nothing to do with aerodynamics?

This is a old news that Railways is interested. They will modify this. They don't need aircraft like cores for railway engine.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Aug 2011 15:17

Get more details chacko, it would be really interesting to know.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 07 Aug 2011 15:35

SaiK,

This proposal is a year or two old. Both the institutions move at snailspace in terms of closing the deal because of pre occupations and procedures. The reason this is being again told is that it was mentioned in the auditing body. otherwise, there is nothing else to it. The GTRE engine can be modified for most purpose "if" there is a commercial proposal. I will definitely update, once there is something.

thammu · Post by **thammu** » 08 Aug 2011 07:39

Railway uses a engine for driving an alternator which feeds a electrical traction motor, mounted on wheels. Railway will definitely be interested in any compact engine. Presently, the engine driving the most powerful diesel locomotive has a rating of 4000HP. Kaveri will definitely will be more powerful.

The limiting factor are:
1. Railway uses diesel as fuel. They will now have to stock Aviation fuel also.
2. The dimension, specially the height - due to overhead 25 KV transmission lines the height of locomotive cannot be increased.