ranjbe wrote:No replacements for Onion surveillance planes, given current 'tense' US-Pak relations.Paki defence production secretary.
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... impossible
Alam alleged that the former ISI officialhad been working for the RAW, India’s intelligence agency.
The hostility of Pakistan and India is understandable. In spite of the fact Pak is facing multifarious threats, is economically almost at the verge of bankrupt and marred with all sorts of social, religious and political disharmony prevailing in the country. There is no doubt its only Pak who is really a source of historic impediment preventing India her long sought-ed recognition regionally as well as internationally, as a big power. The 1100 years Muslim rule on India has caused deeper damages and Hindu mindset hold these poor Pakistanis responsible for every thing that went bad against them in the history. So they are justified in the type of activities mentioned above, against Pakistan. So are US also but differently. There is a trail of over 60 years of alliance in which they watched dismemberment of Pakistan satisfactorily at the hands of India and facilitated by our tyrant military and the then visionary political leadership. Indeed, if they were really friends , they could have emphasized necessary guidance, but they deliberately did not. There could be many reasons but one thing is clear that US was not real friend and India is real enemy who can never turn to be a friend. The type of environment is prevailing now in and around Pakistan is not really very encouraging. However, our assets are our youth who love their country more than any one does here. They are becoming self awared and self reliant. It can be now hoped and speculated with great confidence, soon our youth will take the control of Govt Policy in Pakistan and with the backing of independent judiciary, sensitive and effective role of press and media and full support of nation, they will defeat all foreign and indigenous threats posed to Pakistan, sooner than later. I can see with great hope and confidence that Pakistan is rising. There is no role of US or India or in-competent, corrupt and bullshit political leadership here any more. US needs to concentrate on their own home and seek some face saving in Afghanistan more than than what they are trying to do in Pakistan with Raymond Davis sort of diplomats and agents. There and all others time is over. Now its the time of Pakistanis who are getting ready make major sacrifices to rid their nation from all sorts of friends and foes. Let it be said and remain it on record that the world will soon witness what Pakistanis can really do….. India or US…. they are not big deals any more.
Keep waking-up Pakistan and shake it up. Your enemies are there as long as you do not join the battle field. I assure you they will all run away much sooner than you decide to contest them. You are a big power Pakistan and the world can not move forward with you. So cheer-up and gear-up….. It’s u r time and time starts now on ………May Allah be with you.
RajeshA wrote:Once the West creates a moral framework for a people to be liberated, it is often easier to help. As was in the case of East Timor, where a Muslim country was forced to let it go. East Timor declared independence from Portugal in 1975, and then it was invaded by Indonesia. Subsequently Indonesia was forced to admit that East Timor deserved to be independent.
My analogy was not about why the "international community" took up the cause of East Timorese Independence, but simply pertained to the ability of the West to coerce Indonesia, a Muslim country, to let go of a part of it.A_Gupta wrote:East Timor became a European cause, according to Wiki, because the Portuguese saw videos of Timorese praying in Portuguese; and because 95% of the Timorese had converted to Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_East_Timor
RajeshA wrote:So if the West is willing to make Baluchistan and Gilgit-Baltistan into disputed territories deserving of self-determination and independence, then it can be possible for the international community to force Pakistan out of these areas. If Pakistan declines, international sanctions can be applied on Pakistan. Also weapons can be supplied to Baluchis and Gilgitians and Baltistanis.
a. In the case of Baluchistan and even Gilgit-Baltistan too, the West would make the determination of their "liberation" based on their self-interest, and not because of considerations of history and legality.A_Gupta wrote:a. The West makes these determinations out of self-interest, not out of objective considerations.
b. In any way recognizing this power of "the West" by India means that the West can play the same games with any area of India. Let's remember whom the "international community" is. It is not Fiji and Chad and Senegal. It is the US and Europe. I think China knows the potential of this with regard to Eastern Turkmenistan and Tibet and would not invoke this "self-determination" stuff.
PLA Brigade will work as a hedge if and only if they have air support from PLAAF. Once the fecal matter strikes the rotating electro-mechanical device PLA will exit the scene. The simple reason is no body wants an escalation unless it their intention in first place. If china wants a war and they want to use Pakistan as an excuse, then what they are currently doing makes logical sense. But if they want to just play games in case there is a JDAM in India, then India must declare that any JDAM will invite automatic disproportionate response on Beijing as well. It makes no sense in fiddling thumbs at this stage.Singha wrote:potential theory:-
1 - pakis are planning a escalation of organized terrorism in cashmere
and/or
2 - they are no longer so sure that US will come down hard and restrain india should we decide to slap them around a bit
which is where step3 comes in
- position a couple of PLA brigades on permanent rotating training duty in pakistan border as a hedge ... the PLA presence in cashmere as a hedge is already there.
Pakistan is also a wall of safety from anarchy.shiv wrote:
We know the answer to that. The problem is Pakistan. We cannot control what Pakistan does and we have to prepare for whoever the Pakis invite into their land. I personally would not even think about CAR resources as long as the Pakistan problem remains unsolved. In fact it is the Pakistan problem that ensures that CAR resources cannot move East and South. Those resourced were locked away when the Soviets were there. They remained locked away when the Taliban got there. They remain locked away with the US over there, an I predict that they will continue to remain locked away with Chinese troops in the region.
He was probably under the influence of American propaganda! One is making Taliban to be a bigger monster than they are! Taliban can function only in a conducive environment, surrounded by their people, a crowd in which they can disappear. Outside their own environment, they are a fish out of water! One has every reason to be afraid of sharks, but not in the desert!Acharya wrote:Pakistan is also a wall of safety from anarchy.
One delhi elite told me in 2009 that Taliban in only few hundred km from Delhi. He was from the ruling group and they were worried about in 2009 only.
US drone strike kills 21 in northwest Pakistan, biggest in weeks A US drone fired two missiles into Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region on the Afghan border on Wednesday, killing at least 21 suspected militants, including foreigners, local officials said, in one of the biggest attacks in weeks.
In fact I had a similar thought - although the symbolism is for internal Paki consumption. "We may be busy and under some pressure now but our defences are not down and our Chinese friends are here protecting us from the Indian kafrs who covet our land"Sri wrote:PLA's presence in Pakistan is a symbolic show of unity more aimed towards US than towards India. PA now knows that there is a real possibility of US boots on the ground approach....
As far as IA is concerned militarily doesn't make an iota it difference. Why would Chinese leave there units in Pakistan All exposed and ready to be eliminated in case of any confrontation.
It's Symbolic onlee.
Ms Clinton's speech in Chennai made me think a little bit!SSridhar wrote:I see several possibilities here in the increasing presence of PLA in Pakistan.
- PRC also might want to hedge India from all directions and Pakistan's acquiescence comes handy. Ms. Clinton's speech in Chennai two weeks back exhorting India to assume leadership role in maritime affairs in Malaca Straits, South China Sea and upto the Pacific is an indication of the talks possibly going on between the two countries. India seems yet undecided on such a role but PRC may want to preempt that by sending India a signal with its fine-tuned aggressive posture along LAC and now along the India-Pakistan border.
Pakistan was a key member of the Ummah and a close friend of the Kingdom. “Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are one country; they are more than friends and more than brothers,” King Abdullah said.
Prime Minister Gilani reciprocating the feelings regarding their close ties said “Pakistan’s security was Saudi Arabia’s security and Saudi Arabia’s security was Pakistan’s security.”
nvishal ji,nvishal wrote:@philip
It will take a lot out of us to subdue their *wild wild west*. So far, its them v/s them. We have to make sure it remains that way. The only thing keeping the one's in the west of the durand line from expanding to the east are the sindhis and the pakjabi's. This power tussle needs to be maintained(it not them, then it will have to be us guarding the wall). "Them v/s them" is the best cost/benefit equation. We will have to absorb a few cross border attacks in the meanwhile. That is why pakistan(especially pakjabi's) have to exist. It serves india's interest. The elephant will and has found time to grow in this equation. Grow as much as we can till we face off.
Pakistan stands in the way of global eradication of polio and could potentially be the last reservoir worldwide of the crippling disease.
After all, pa'astan's security is Saudi Arabia's security and Saudi Arabia's security is pa'astan's security. Hain ji.The spread of polio in the country also affects Pakistani travellers, particular those going to Saudi Arabia for Haj, who must now show proof of polio vaccination on entry.
nvishal ji,nvishal wrote:@RajeshA
We actually did respond for the mumbai attacks. We responded by NOT reacting.
Mumbai attacks were a bait. Killing 200-300 does not change anything. After all, indians are in billions. So it's obvious that the purpose of mumbai attacks were to force us to respond. The question is WHY?
We're not thinking in terms of "thresholds". India doesn't have "thresholds". We think in terms of "cost/benefit".
Ramanji - I am reminded of a parable. An American and a Chinese were once tasked with ensuring that a beautiful young lady was not shamed in any way. They decided to take turns. It was the American's turn first. He put on his boxing gloves and picked up a rifle also for good measure. But before he knew it the girl's hat had come off and then her scarf. Suddenly her shoes came off - stockings followed. Skirt blew up and the American tried to hold it down and whoosh the blouse came off. Then she decided to take her skirt off herself and started unhooking her bra. That was when the American's watch ended and the Chinese guy came in as the American was getting out.V_Raman wrote: i think all these china-pak exercises cannot take place without approval of USA. this is all to keep india cut-off india from CAR. USA came into pak to keep it together. china is in for the same reason as USA is now getting out.
Also remember that the Saudi order that any Saudi travelling to Pakistan must get clearance from the Saudi government before applying for visa, still stands.anupmisra wrote:After all, pa'astan's security is Saudi Arabia's security and Saudi Arabia's security is pa'astan's security. Hain ji.
shiv wrote:On the topic of the US wanting to see Cashmeer in Pakistani hands the question that comes to mind is "Why would the US want to see Cashmere in Paki hands?" What would the US stand to gain by that?
The US was looking for allies in its "great game" of checking communism and the Soviet empire and Pakistan grabbed the opportunity with both hands in the 1950s. Please revisit that Liaqat Ali Khan interview linked on Arun Gupta's blog. I think the piskological significance of the term "Great game" is easily missed. The "Real game" - the "Great" game was what big boy played. Small petty regional disputes were not part of the "Great" game unless they could be exploited to get allies or dominate over the power of one's adversary.
But the point I want to make was that many of the US's actions in the post 1950s years were actions of anxiety and dhoti shivering, not actions of strength - which is what they appeared to be to us weakling cowardly Yindoos. The US was fighting rearguard action to protect the US from Communism which appeared to be gaining strength. The thoughtless dumping of arms into a perfidious Pakistan was not a well calculated chess move - it was a reaction to communist advances where the US sought any goddam ch**t as an ally if he made the right noises. The US sort of backed out from arming Pakistan after 1965 - but just 3-4 years later the US found itself in another big mess in Vietnam. It was at this time that the US did another dhoti shivering reactive act that they are paying for today.
Pakistan had moved closer to China when US embargos kicked in after 1965. Nixon/Kissinger - in their fear of Communism used Pakistani good offiices" to become friends with China and reduce the Communist threat that the US faced. The Pakistan China alliance in the 1960s was purely anti-India. It had nothing to do with China global aspirations. The US joined that alliance - not to oppose India but to neutralise a Chinese communist threat. This was a dhoti shivering reactive act to the US's losing situation in Vietnam and not the great Chankian chess move we see.
Then Pakistan went and botched things again in 1971. Embargos kicked in but the US was more concerned about Vietnam, and a few years later they were out. The US was shamed. Communism had won. That set the stage for using Afghanistan and Pakistan once again to defeat communism. Once again the US who ha already selected a ch**tiya nation as an ally just because she offered herself - used that same Pakistan again to shore up, train and arm Islamic fundamentalists to defeat the USSR.
Now suddenly the US finds that the Pakistan army is not in control, the Pakistani state is decrepit and shrunken, the US is still in trouble and that trouble comes from Pakistan itself and the US is now trying to use Pakistan against itself.
Whichever way I look at it - a war over Cashmere will be disastrous for US interests and the Paki army.
The UPA has internalized the PVNR doctrine.nvishal wrote: We responded by NOT reacting.
Terrorism is arguably the most profitable enterprise in the world today. The big organised interests — be it the LeT or the Naxalites or HuJi (Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami) in Bangladesh or the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) — are all strong business and commercial entities.
The LeT employs a network of 10,000 commission agents in Pakistan to recruit potential terrorists. It invests millions in training the recruits. If one of its mujahideen is killed in India, the ISI gives LeT money as compensation, of which 35 percent goes to the family and 65 percent to the LeT leadership.
With this kind of cash flow, there is no incentive for the LeT to abhor terrorism. In fact, the group even started charging a levy from the milkmen of Pakistan by asking their customers to forego the change from what they pay each morning for milk. Only due to pressure from the Pakistani government did LeT stop this extortion.
Take the LTTE in Sri Lanka. It was primarily a shipping company carrying contraband merchandise that regular shipping lines wouldn’t accept. Secondly, it was a terrorist group. Its legitimate businesses included a string of shopping malls in different parts of the world including Toronto, Canada, home to a large number of Sri Lankan Tamil diaspora. Drug dealing and gun running were some of its illegitimate pursuits.
Naxalites stick to road taxes. Businesses pay them for being allowed into their domain and trucks pay a charge to be left alone. In the North East, groups like United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA) extort even government employees.
In Pakistan, the business of terrorism spans the ISI, various Jihadi forces, recruiters, a network of religious institutions and poppy cultivators in Afghanistan. A Strategic Foresight Group study estimated the size of this conglomeration to be Rs. 264 billion Pakistani rupees, or 6.6 percent of the country’s GDP. Call it the Gross Terror-Economic Product (GTP) but as long as economic interests of such colossal magnitude continue, terrorism is too lucrative for the concerned players to abandon and go away.
PESHAWAR - Four officials from US Embassy, Islamabad were sent back to Islamabad when they tried to enter in Peshawar city without holding NOC and complete documents.
According to a private TV channel, four US diplomats including Denis Wynne, Wilmer Case and Joseph Edward, attempted to enter Peshawar by two vehicles bearing numbers PB-491 and SV-406, however police officials at Peshawar Motorway Toll Plaza stopped them and asked for their NOC.
Upon the inquiry, all the four US diplomats were sent back to Islamabad as they did not hold the required documents for traveling.
Almost half-a-century after he shot down an Indian civilian aircraft carrying the then Chief Minister of Gujarat, a Pakistan Air Force pilot has apologised to the daughter of the pilot of the downed plane, saying he was "not a trigger-happy person" and this happened in the line of duty during the 1965 war.
Qais Hussain was a rookie Flying Officer during the 1965 war when he shot down the Beechcraft piloted by distinguished ex-Indian Air Force pilot Jehangir Engineer.
Besides Engineer and the then Gujarat Chief Minister Balwantrai Mehta, the Chief Minister's wife Sarojben Mehta, three members of his personal staff, a crew member and a reporter of the Gujarat Samachar were killed in the incident.
Hussain, who wrote an e-mail to Engineer's daughter, decided to explain his side of the story after PAF officer-turned-blogger Kaiser Tufail researched the incident and concluded that Pakistani officials had wrongly surmised that the Indian aircraft was on a surveillance mission.
Thanks to the efforts of Naveed Riaz, a Lahore-based businessman and aviation enthusiast, and Indian military aviation expert Jagan Pillarisetti, Hussain got the email address of Jehangir 'Jungoo' Engineer's daughter Farida Singh and wrote to her on August 5.
"If an opportunity ever arises that I could meet you face to face to condole the death of your father 46 years back, I would grab it with both hands. I would highly appreciate if you please convey my feelings to the other members of your family, who were equally hurt by the untimely departure of Jungoo to the next world," Hussain wrote in his email.
He explained he had acted only after he was ordered to shoot down the Indian aircraft by his controller, who had mistakenly concluded that the Beechcraft was on a surveillance mission.
"Your father spotted my presence immediately and he started climbing and waggling his wings seeking mercy. Instead of firing at him at first sight, I relayed to my controller that I had intercepted an eight-seat transport aircraft (guessing by the four side windows) and wanted further instructions to deal with it," Hussain wrote in his email.
"At the same time, I was hoping that I would be called back without firing a shot. There was a lapse of three to four long minutes before I was given clear orders to shoot the aircraft," wrote Hussain, who left the PAF three years after the incident.
A Pakistani intelligence officer, who wished to secure American citizenship for his family, gave details of Osama bin-Laden's whereabouts to the US, in a deal worth USD 25 million.
The Pakistani officer also informed the US officials that Saudis were paying off Pakistan and ISI to keep bin Laden hidden in the Abbotabad compound, the Daily Mail reported.
That bast*rd is just trying to clear his conscience without any remorse.Pranay wrote:http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?730835
Only if they suceed in eradicating them and make sure CHinis cannot supply any more..darshhan wrote:^^Hopefully US would soon grant citizenship to some more Pakis in exchange for the whereabouts of paki nukes.
