PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 16 Aug 2011 13:15

Sorry for the ignorant post what is that long thing protruding out between the engines

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Aug 2011 14:00

The long tail sting you mean ? That would some day house a radar and chutes

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 16 Aug 2011 14:57

HAL team in Moscow to assess 5th gen fighter with Russia

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Aug 2011 15:16

So, we still have no official news or carlo coppo kind of analysis yet on pak-fa stealth signatures and RCS values. From the looks, bottom and rear has more similarities with its predecessor mki. Any pics of any other plan for future versions of pak-fa thrown out on the net?

The paint scheme is more stealthier than the airframe is the first feeling at these angles, as shown in the pics. Now, if we are to counter raptor in the future, then it is quite important we have more details here as HAL deals with fgfa, has no pics of it how it may look [assume they just do an mki on pak-fa].

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 16 Aug 2011 15:40

SaiK wrote:So, we still have no official news or carlo coppo kind of analysis yet on pak-fa stealth signatures and RCS values. From the looks, bottom and rear has more similarities with its predecessor mki. Any pics of any other plan for future versions of pak-fa thrown out on the net?

What kind of official news on RCS do you expect to be reveled ? Considering you will never find any one speaking with honesty on such values and RCS values can be complicated depending on the angle of the target to the RF source and the RF band it is exposed to , which means Tejas from favourable angle would end up having lower RCS figures compared to PAK-FA when exposed from unfavorable angle to RF source.

The only "official" information and figure that was put across by Chief Designer of PAK-FA Alexander Davydenko was that its RCS will be no worse then F-22 and he quoted a figure of 0.3-0.4 m sq for F-22 and he mentioned we have similar requirement.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 16 Aug 2011 18:03

India has helped Russia develop the new jet, and said recently it would cover 35 percent of the estimated $6 billion development costs.

I thought it will be 50 %

New stealth fighter jet ‘principal’ for Russia, India

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 16 Aug 2011 19:17

Indo-Russia T-50 stealth fighter to make its international debut

GelbOne · Post by **GelbOne** » 16 Aug 2011 20:39

Austin wrote:The long tail sting you mean ? That would some day house a radar and chutes

Hi guys I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I make nooby mistakes!

yeah, it seems like it's big enough to hold a rearwards-facing radar, and drogue chutes, but strangely it doesn't have the flare dispensers that other famous Sukhoi aircraft do have....

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 16 Aug 2011 21:17

SaiK wrote:So, we still have no official news or carlo coppo kind of analysis yet on pak-fa stealth signatures and RCS values. From the looks, bottom and rear has more similarities with its predecessor mki. Any pics of any other plan for future versions of pak-fa thrown out on the net?

Oh, its easy to predict Carlo's analysis on PAK-FA's RCS. My guess at it is as below,

Code: Select all

from initial info available on the open internet and other sources it is clear that the PAK-FA's radar signature is far superior to any fourth/4.5 gen western aircraft and even the F-35 for that matter. The only fighter which can match or surpass this is the Raptor and hence Aus needs raptors and needs to cancel the F-18s and F-35 acquisitions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Aug 2011 21:19

Austin, wasn't that for frontal RCS? The reason raptor skins got so much pasting work is for all aspect stealth., and the reason for the high cost.

I thought Indian stealth would be ingenious in ways we handle the waveforms.. it could be attacked from two angles, keeping the aerodynamics separate to stealth requirements for fgfa.

1. Keep the external skin(air frame) completely permeable - I am thinking composites will just let all radiations to pass through (like kevlar). This would satisfy all requirements for aerodynamics.

2. Internally, have back skins (layer)(or micro skins) that either deflect the radiation to 45*-60*), it could be as simple as gold plated copper thick foils/sheets that purely deflect all radiations to a desired direction.

Is this not cheap and possible, and sdre?

GelbOne · Post by **GelbOne** » 16 Aug 2011 23:56

SaiK wrote:Austin, wasn't that for frontal RCS? The reason raptor skins got so much pasting work is for all aspect stealth., and the reason for the high cost.

1. Keep the external skin(air frame) completely permeable - I am thinking composites will just let all radiations to pass through (like kevlar). This would satisfy all requirements for aerodynamics.

2. Internally, have back skins (layer)(or micro skins) that either deflect the radiation to 45*-60*), it could be as simple as gold plated copper thick foils/sheets that purely deflect all radiations to a desired direction.

Is this not cheap and possible, and sdre?

I dunno about the skinning, but I do know that the price of copper and gold is going up pretty fast, so I don't think that plating or foiling would be possible as the primary stealth mechanism...

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Aug 2011 00:00

SaiK wrote:So, we still have no official news or carlo coppo kind of analysis yet on pak-fa stealth signatures and RCS values. From the looks, bottom and rear has more similarities with its predecessor mki. Any pics of any other plan for future versions of pak-fa thrown out on the net?

The paint scheme is more stealthier than the airframe is the first feeling at these angles, as shown in the pics. Now, if we are to counter raptor in the future, then it is quite important we have more details here as HAL deals with fgfa, has no pics of it how it may look [assume they just do an mki on pak-fa].

you asked for a Carlo Kopp PAK-FA analysis and here is one on the PAK-FA

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Aug 2011 07:44

The new Russian fighter: shown today, here tomorrow

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2011 08:07

gelbone, tin is fine as well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2011 10:43

using current technology is it feasible to imagine a ramjet powered long and slim AAM (say 15 feet long, but slim) which has both active radar and IIR seekers and a tail aspect range vs a receding/crossing supersonic target of 100km and 150-200km against a receding/crossing subsonic target, with powered-most-of-the-way using a 2nsd stage ramjet, and climbing to 130,000ft if needed using a 1st stage solid fuel motor ?

coupled with a platform like the PAKFA, the new aesa from tikhomirov and carrying 8 of these puppies internally, should be a formidable combo to sweep large volumes of sky.

R77 or any incremental update is clearly a underachiever considering the potential of the pakfa airframe and 1600tr radar combo.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 14:01

New Long Range AAM RVV-BD shown at MAKS

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/1310/rvvbd.jpg

Weight: 510 kg
Range: 200 km
Maneuverability: 8 g target at 15-25 km altitude

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2011 15:06

I am doubtful if this thing will fit into pakfa internal bay though. maybe 2 will fit, but not 4 side by side. it looks like following the same general trend as the AA9 which was 490kg ..... meteor is 185kg albeit half the range.

guess I am whining for a meteor++ @ 300kg and 175km of range at blazing speed! ..a true area denial weapon.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 15:14

Right now the MKI would be able to carry it and it would do justice to the tremendous potential of BARS , which are underfed due to current gen of A2A missile.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2011 16:36

I would think it is plausible to see a future with supersonic receding/crossing targets for AAMs. Of course, the slim & lengthy to take them out at 150-200km would immediately put the platform the most feared by raptor men, especially it can fuse in a miniature eltro-optical with irst homing device along with mmw, while the mid-course is navigated via inertials/gps corrections.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Aug 2011 18:25

any current expectations on how fast the Pakfa will be able to supercruise with the eventual 5th gen engine? if its Mach1.5-1.7ish, it will be a scary weapon, armed with the next gen of long range AAMs.

the bandar types will stand very little chance no matter how they be armed.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2011 20:33

squadrons of fgfa super-cruising at 50k ft level, with fire&report missiles can not only scare the chippanda club, but also the eu block and further down the western hemisphere.

further stealth modifications of fgfa skins, makes this sdre beast further imposing fear on the nato club. Any new reduced RCS would send pajama shivers to Richter scale.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 20:54

AW&ST T-50: The Fifth Generation Fighter's Sensors

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 21:04

T-50 at MAKS

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 21:11

Just looking at the flight display , I would have preferred the Russians should not go ahead with a full aerial display of PAK-FA , its hardly one and half year into flight testing and at very early stage , but looking at the flight envelop and maneuver of the aircraft one can hardly notice its into one half year of flight testing with just 80 odd flights to its credit. A simple fly past/by like LCA during early AeroIndia would have sufficed

Either the Russians are plain simple stupid or just too confident.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Aug 2011 21:22

strategy for marketing can't be stupid, no?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Aug 2011 21:38

SaiK wrote:strategy for marketing can't be stupid, no?

Most certainly they are in a business to promote it but at an early stage of flight it can be a bad PR should something unexpected happen.

veerav · Post by **veerav** » 18 Aug 2011 03:07

Nice article on FGFA in CNN related to MAKS 2011 Airshow.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/17/ne ... ?hpt=hp_c2

The Sukhoi T-50, developed collaboratively by Russia and India

The aircraft is expected to become a staple of airborne defense for both Russia and India, Mikhail Pogosyan, head of Russia's United Aircraft Corp

Sukhoi T-50 cost the two governments about $6 billion to develop, with India shouldering about 35% of the cost. It is intended to match the U.S. F-22 raptor.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 18 Aug 2011 03:12

So, how much of a "Hanfu" shivering.....is this gonna cause???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chines ... 22Hanfu.22

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 18 Aug 2011 04:14

Wow it looks as if the PAK-FA has been flying for two or three years. I cant stop admiring the fluid movements in air, has the grace of a bharatanatyam dancer. In the pak-fa we can see how prior experience can help you reach maturity rapidly. The tejas program will do the same to our AMCA and it will also go through rapid development based on the knowledge that we have gained till date. All and all the americans might be pissed off, they came up with a wonderful design in raptor and the russians improved upon it and delivered the punch via the pak-fa. I thought roosi expertise in aviation and allied technologies was more or less a thing of the past, but looks like though the rope is burnt it still retains formidable strength(pardon my crude translation from hindi). What lies to be seen is the avionics masala that India is going to add, make the very good pak-fa an excellent pak-fa. The pak-fa hopefully, helps us fine tune our AMCA design.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Aug 2011 06:57

India’s future fighter makes public debut

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 18 Aug 2011 07:08

Is anybody can give some information about Pak-fa that when this will fly to Moscow to Dehli?Is this bird can fly from Moscow to Dehli without refuel?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 07:22

it did a full 360' barrel roll atleast once.

kuldip its in-service combat radius will only be known properly once the 5th gen engine is done , and tested on pakfa. generally these new crop of engines are expected to supply good dry and wet power, yet sip less fuel than older kit.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Aug 2011 07:35

I believe Indian FGFA will have their wings modified too apart from twin seat configuration, structurally. Russians still not successful in their fifth generation engine development. And I believe Indians are hedging.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2011 07:37

Austin wrote:Just looking at the flight display , I would have preferred the Russians should not go ahead with a full aerial display of PAK-FA , its hardly one and half year into flight testing and at very early stage , but looking at the flight envelop and maneuver of the aircraft one can hardly notice its into one half year of flight testing with just 80 odd flights to its credit. A simple fly past/by like LCA during early AeroIndia would have sufficed

Either the Russians are plain simple stupid or just too confident.

It is not as if that the T-50 did some spectacular stuff in this display or pulled some real high G. It was a tame ho hum display, so not much to say here. The envelope obviously is not fully opened yet .

That said, it is the ADA which has been super cautious with it's flight testing (for good reason, with the idiotic DDM and the other dhoti shiverers, if a crash had happened, like in the Gripen program, the LCA program would have been shut down). IIRC the M2K prototype went to Mach 2 in it's first few flights. But then, the M2K was nearly fully tested earlier in a Mirage III with FBW and from that to M2K was just a small refinement.

vina · Post by **vina** » 18 Aug 2011 07:49

Kanson wrote:I believe Indian FGFA will have their wings modified too apart from twin seat configuration, structurally. Russians still not successful in their fifth generation engine development. And I believe Indians are hedging.

It is quite obvious to everyone, that the rear part of the plane with the current engines is just an interim/initial set of engines with no stealth or anything to get the plane into flight test. The 5th gen engine and the stealth treatment in the rear has to come sometime for all aspect stealth. There could still be some way to go for this. This 2015 date seems ultra aggressive and at best this could be the entry into service with low rate of production, of the half baked version that is currently flying and when the 5th gen engines and in 2018/2020 when the engines and stuff are mature enough, a sort of MLU/ MKII version of that with all aspect stealth and all bells and whistles will enter service.

In the meantime, I do hope the IAF put is full weight behind the MCA and that starts flying with entry of full matured models in the 2022 timeframe. But get that engines for that sorted out right now. With Kaveri flying successfully (80KN was the design goal I think) and once it is proven on the test bed, get the 110/120 KN thrust version (will need a new LP section , higher mass flow and by pass and Phrench /Phoren material in turbine and hot sections) paid for , contracted, copied in triplicate, laminated and "No Objection Certificate" (now, only the Hindoo mind can invent something like that.. formally define "nothing" /"emptiness", like the zero) issued and gazetted and all the babu/baboon giri done.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2011 09:57

vina wrote:It is not as if that the T-50 did some spectacular stuff in this display or pulled some real high G. It was a tame ho hum display, so not much to say here. The envelope obviously is not fully opened yet .

How many fighter aircraft do you know of ( forget of it being a 5th gen fighter ) that would dare to do a full public display within 1 and half year of first flight or just 80 flights into test , most would just do a fly by for the airshow if ever they would do that.

In the context of that it is really doing an aggresive display and some impressive AOA , which shows good progress but can easily turn into PR disaster

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2011 10:04

imo the engines are proven and they must have tested the FCS on a su30 testbed and ground rigs earlier, they have mastery on canards and lifting bodies..within limits should be safer than flying with a totally new engine like f22 did around 1990.

plus we know the russians love being edgy and ultra-masculine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2011 14:23

official information on RVV-BD performance plus other programs

- RVV-BD long-range guided missile is presented at MAKS-2011 for the first time. In comparison with its predecessor R-33E long-range guided missile the new one has improved technical performance. High aerodynamic quality of RVV-BD missile and use of dual-mode solid – fuelled motor taking into consideration its all-up weight up to 510 caliber, permit launch – range up to 200 km (R – 33E has launch range only 120 km) and ability to destroy targets with overload up to 8 g (R – 33E able to destroy only with 4 g overload) at the altitude from 15 m to 25 km.

RVV-BD

http://eng.ktrv.ru/news/company/172.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Aug 2011 17:21

The Indian FGFA could think about having a thin specially designed stealth skin for its rear and bottom engine section. The stealth area is our puppy, and we should make it so!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Aug 2011 19:18

PAK-FA will be equipped with RVV-BD , 14 types of weapons being developed for PAK-FA
link

This is a truly unique product with intercept range to 200 kilometers. Analogs with these characteristics, I do not know any of the Europeans nor the Americans," - he said. It is expected that in 2011, TRW will release a test batch of missiles, and in 2012 will begin commercial production.