Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Aug 2011 20:38

It was ho hum for me. A MiG 21 and a Hawk

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 24 Aug 2011 13:31

anyone know abt the status of our F-INSAS programme.. it was supposed to induct from 2012 onwards right...?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 27 Aug 2011 20:50

^^^
I always thought they were to keep the pitot tubes and intakes clear of debris when the aircraft is sitting on the tarmac (i.e. don't want a wasp or sand blocking a pitot tube or a pigeon deciding to take a rest in the intake while the engine is off). Feel free to correct me on this one.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 27 Aug 2011 22:36

armen is talking of a different thing, removable covers etc usually made of plastic that are attached to protect sensitive equipment from the elements and plug holes like the intake.

mig-21 intake cover

mig-21 with cover attached

the discussion in LCA thread is about adding an additional cross section to the LCA fuselage, as shown by shiv ji's pic. there can be many reasons of doing such a thing, increasing internal volume for example. if it happens at the end it is called stretched fuselage, like in the C-130J.

if it happens in the middle of the fuselage it is a 'plug'. for the LCA the reason is supposed to be giving the LCA a more elongated fuselage compare to the relatively stubbier one now.
hope this helps.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 30 Aug 2011 16:34

Can someone suggest any easily available book or online source which explains ORBAT structure ? I want to learn more about basic concepts of Divisions, Corps, Brigades etc. and how diverse units like artillery, armour, infantry etc. form formations.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 Aug 2011 17:37

jamwal wrote:Can someone suggest any easily available book or online source which explains ORBAT structure ? I want to learn more about basic concepts of Divisions, Corps, Brigades etc. and how diverse units like artillery, armour, infantry etc. form formations.

At expense of blowing my own trumpet, I had posted the Table of Equipment (ToE) and Orbat for some formations here:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... b6#p746657

Also, go through the pic in the link herehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... ucture.png. It gives the Orbat and spread of IA wit which command has which Corps and Division(s) etc.

Hope it helps.

In case of any queries, ping me.

Prithwi · Post by **Prithwi** » 30 Aug 2011 17:43

Hello from a new member.

Hope you all are doing great!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Aug 2011 17:53

^^ welcome !

jamwaluddin, before you dive into rohit's excellent detailed overview, have a look at this overview.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... tions.html

use this page for reading military flags http://www.jhu.edu/rotc/Basic_Army_Know ... ymbols.htm
keep in mind some might be different for IA but the basic ones would be same.

jimmy_moh · Post by **jimmy_moh** » 30 Aug 2011 19:03

going through many discussions in BR.. many members is speaking against barkha dutt of NDTV..... while am not finding any odd against her....

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Aug 2011 19:54

jimmy_moh wrote:going through many discussions in BR.. many members is speaking against barkha dutt of NDTV..... while am not finding any odd against her....

I guess that it would have to do with her incident during Kargil coverage. IIRC, she was asked by IA not to use camera light as it could get their position detected. She did not comply with the directives and thus resulted in getting the soldiers killed.
Anyway, I could blame that on naivety and stupidity as she was also putting herself at risk there.
But my problem with Barkha Dutt runs deeper. Eg: Did you watch the NDTV program "Remembering Kargil: 11 years after victory"? It was an otherwise excellent program hosted by Barkha Dutt..highly recommended because the interviewees . However, maybe it was just me, but to me it felt like Barkha was a little too obsessed with showing how she brilliantly covered the war while risking grave personal danger. All true of course, but considering the sacrifices she personally witnessed during her coverage, one would have though she would have been more humbled. Instead she was striking dramatic poses beneath a bridge not to mention close up shots where she was looking contemplatively far away at the horizon while her hair flew around her.

Also, I was appalled at her attempts at being Oprah during interviews. For eg, while interviewing Capt Batra's twin brother, her whole line of questioning seemed like an attempt to make him cry (in which she succeeded) and catch more eyeballs from viewers. Many of her questions were highly insensitive and downright distasteful.

But again, that's just how I perceived the show. But whatever her faults, I do appreciated the fact that, in general, NDTV does Military Coverage more frequently than any other news channel. Also, some of their Military shows have been great.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Aug 2011 20:59

jamwal wrote:Can someone suggest any easily available book or online source which explains ORBAT structure ? I want to learn more about basic concepts of Divisions, Corps, Brigades etc. and how diverse units like artillery, armour, infantry etc. form formations.

AoA...as Rahul Mehta-ji used to, AWMTA ( All Wise Minds think Alike).

Was just about to post a similar post in Amry dhaga to try and make sense of Rohit-ji's tonloads of info which is always floating around and the same even got answered before i could post the Q.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Aug 2011 22:15

Guess a lot of us had the same thing floating in our head.. Was meaning to ping Rohitmullah by which time it was asked.
This ORBAT exercise is addictive. Now every time i look at a army truck passing by in bangalore first thing i look at is the insignia that it carries(mostly AHQ)
During my school days in early 2000s there used to be a lot of trucks with the Bison ID's insignia that were used as school buses for kids in my school. Used to think they were from TADA(don't ask me how i came to this conclusion as i don't remember how i came to it). Now it makes sense considering the units in bangalore.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Aug 2011 21:49

Gaur wrote:^^
Sorry sirji, but I will test your patience with one more question. People can answer in newbie thread if they are interested to do so.

What would you guys like the next render to be?

1> Lone wolf FGFA on prowl?

2> 2 FGFA's?

3> Or FGFA & LCA like in this one?

4> Or some other idea of yours?

How about a FGFA leading a pack of LCA's, with it beimg up high, guiding the LCA's to their targets??
Or did i go overboard with mine imagination..

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 31 Aug 2011 22:27

Could not disagree more with you Gaur ji.

Gaur wrote: I guess that it would have to do with her incident during Kargil coverage. IIRC, she was asked by IA not to use camera light as it could get their position detected. She did not comply with the directives and thus resulted in getting the soldiers killed.

Time after time this allegation has been leveled. The truth is that no such incident took place. Gen V.P. Malik (one of our finest officers, as you know) has written in his own memoirs that this incident has been twisted.

Gaur wrote: Anyway, I could blame that on naivety and stupidity as she was also putting herself at risk there.
But my problem with Barkha Dutt runs deeper. Eg: Did you watch the NDTV program "Remembering Kargil: 11 years after victory"? It was an otherwise excellent program hosted by Barkha Dutt..highly recommended because the interviewees . However, maybe it was just me, but to me it felt like Barkha was a little too obsessed with showing how she brilliantly covered the war while risking grave personal danger. All true of course, but considering the sacrifices she personally witnessed during her coverage, one would have though she would have been more humbled. Instead she was striking dramatic poses beneath a bridge not to mention close up shots where she was looking contemplatively far away at the horizon while her hair flew around her.

You missed the whole point of the program. It was not a run-of-the-mill news report about 10 year anniversary of Kargil but kind of a special documentary. It was equally a tribute to the sacrifices of the brave soldiers and officers, and also a tribute to how the first televised war of this country was brought to people's living rooms.
I liked her little anecdotes - like about the shelling on the highway and the location of the bunkers. It was better coming from a non-army perspective because shelling etc was routine for the men in uniform. Common viewers would more likely associate themselves with a civilian's experience. Also, I think the point of the bridge shot was to show the beauty of the place in contrast with the bloodshed that you can't imagine took place 10 years back. (much like the earlier shots of the mountains etc).

Gaur wrote: Also, I was appalled at her attempts at being Oprah during interviews. For eg, while interviewing Capt Batra's twin brother, her whole line of questioning seemed like an attempt to make him cry (in which she succeeded) and catch more eyeballs from viewers. Many of her questions were highly insensitive and downright distasteful.

Disagree. It was an attempt to educate the public about the personal sacrifices of men and their families. Too often we regard military casualties as mere numbers.

Gaur wrote: But again, that's just how I perceived the show. But whatever her faults, I do appreciated the fact that, in general, NDTV does Military Coverage more frequently than any other news channel. Also, some of their Military shows have been great.

Totally agree. Jai Jawan and Rocky and Mayur etc are innovative.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Sep 2011 03:28

Bala Vignesh,
Nice idea. I'll make sure to try it out.

Nikhil T,
Fair enough. But as I had said before, maybe its just me and maybe I am completely wrong, but that's the impression I get from watching her shows. But I respect your opinion and understand that you may feel differently.

Bharath.Subramanyam · Post by **Bharath.Subramanyam** » 02 Sep 2011 08:14

Originally in IF:
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... _p__112693

Is the usage of gmail or yahoo not good? Can the experts educate in layman terms?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Sep 2011 08:45

Bharath.Subramanyam wrote:Originally in IF:
http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index ... _p__112693

Is the usage of gmail or yahoo not good? Can the experts educate in layman terms?

Use of Gmail and Yahoo are fine as long as confidential information is not sent. Everything on the interent that is unencrypted can be read. If the Indian government employees are stupid enough to send private/confidential info on Gmail and Yahoo (as they are) they the stuff is being read by other intel agencies when they can stop laughing. Only breathlessness from laughter of the reader can make Gmail/Yahoo secure for the Indian government.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 02 Sep 2011 11:15

Thanks everyone for recommendations

Regarding Barkha Dutt, she was kind of a star due to Kargil. I guess that the fame was enough to turn her head. In her talk shows she comes out as an anchor with her own agenda who stifles opinions contrary to her own. She belongs too secular WKK brigade and her love for Su.A.R types is quite visible. Personally I can't stand her banshee like screeching.
She is quite incapable of taking criticism and has sued one (may be more) blogger.
Even her integrity is questionable due to Radia tapes scandal.
In short, even though some people may think of her as a good TV journalists, to most observers she is highly biased, short-tempered, dishonest and lacks common sense to do even her work right (after her moronic coverage of Mumbai attacks).

From Wiki:

Kargil War and Mumbai Attacks

Her reporting of the Kargil conflict in 1999, including an interview with Captain Vikram Batra, brought her to prominence in India. Indian Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta insinuated that she may have compromised the security of the troops by giving away troop locations.[20] Barkha disagreed, claiming that the then Chief of Indian Army, Gen VP Malik, indicated otherwise in his personal memoirs.[21] She has since covered conflicts in Kashmir, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq. Newswatch, a media watchdog, observed that her style of reporting was full of theatrics and had the merit to reduce complex issues to sound bytes.[22] She responded to such studies by remarking that the medium (of Television) lent itself to such shrillness. [23] Amita Malik, a prominent film and television critic, described her to be intrusive into the private lives of people with a long list of trite questions.[24] Sevanti Ninan, a media critic, thought of her as being a representative of the popular malaise afflicting the news media.[25] Barkha, according to many publications, was the journalist who came in for the most criticism for sensationalist coverage after the Mumbai Terrorist Attacks.[22][26][27] Vanity Fair Magazine carried a report citing that her broadcasts were used by terrorist handlers in Pakistan to relay orders back to those in Mumbai.[28]

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Sep 2011 00:02

Gaur janab, wah wah, kya model hai !! we want more !

p.s. could you update the LCA, it seems to be the TD. NLCA would be fantastic !

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Sep 2011 01:56

Rahul M wrote:Gaur janab, wah wah, kya model hai !! we want more !

I am thrilled that you like it. More is definitely coming after a few days.

p.s. could you update the LCA, it seems to be the TD. NLCA would be fantastic !

Only if you will agree to do the unwrapping and texturing.

I am lousy in that part and I hate it with my guts.

Eric Thompson · Post by **Eric Thompson** » 03 Sep 2011 05:21

Jai Vinayaka

Gurus,

This is my first post.

Could anyone educate me if India is developing or procuring Stryker like armored vehicle ?

http://military.discovery.com/technolog ... fv-04.html

Will this help NSG personnel and Army in situations like 26/11 or in Kashmir?

Thank You

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 05 Sep 2011 10:05

^^^ While there is a indigenous FCIV program under evaluation, I am not sure how much a ICV will help in COIN type ops.

NSG or even IA are not expected to encounter anything more than an IED or AK47 fire.

For anti naxal ops also ICV will be overkill as biggest threat is land mines + IED's against which ICV might not be a good choice. MRAPs are better for that (and are cheaper too ?).

On a different note, I just read an article on Chorgupta's website (

) about T90AM. Could some gurus read that and separate out the bull shit for us newbies...please....

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Sep 2011 04:48

I do not understand why HAL is making and the Army accepting these kindof pussy-fighters.

Rudra is an armed variant of the ALH Dhruva chopper and "necessary changes have been made in the airframe of the chopper to give it agility and speed to make it a suitable support weapon for the ground troops".

Really, increased speed & agility by tweaking the airframe. Probably if they tweaked a little more harder we could have a mach helicopter.

Seating two dhotiwallas with 303 rifles with a sack of bumgollas does not make a support weapon for ground troops. The enemy has shoulder fired & mobile SAM's, rocket launchers and AA guns. This is not chhattisgarh.

Where's the freak'n armour, targetting & sight systems ??? Do we need to some of these flies come smoking down before HAL realizes their folly.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 06 Sep 2011 05:09

^^^ wow I am truly lost for words here....

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Sep 2011 05:45

This is not chhattisgarh.

And, I always thought the worst part of India broke away!!!!

That post is

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 06 Sep 2011 05:53

Leo.Davidson wrote: Seating two dhotiwallas with 303 rifles with a sack of bumgollas does not make a support weapon for ground troops. The enemy has shoulder fired & mobile SAM's, rocket launchers and AA guns. This is not chhattisgarh.

Where's the freak'n armour, targetting & sight systems ??? Do we need to some of these flies come smoking down before HAL realizes their folly.

Iam pretty sure Leo sahab here is being sarcastic, because anyone with an insect size intellect or higher would've done the research and seen what the "RUDRA" brings to the table.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 16:33

Leo.Davidson wrote:I do not understand why HAL is making and the Army accepting these kindof pussy-fighters.

Rudra is an armed variant of the ALH Dhruva chopper and "necessary changes have been made in the airframe of the chopper to give it agility and speed to make it a suitable support weapon for the ground troops".

Really, increased speed & agility by tweaking the airframe. Probably if they tweaked a little more harder we could have a mach helicopter.

Seating two dhotiwallas with 303 rifles with a sack of bumgollas does not make a support weapon for ground troops. The enemy has shoulder fired & mobile SAM's, rocket launchers and AA guns. This is not chhattisgarh.

Where's the freak'n armour, targetting & sight systems ??? Do we need to some of these flies come smoking down before HAL realizes their folly.

Where's the ignore button? Admins please don't remove that feature.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Sep 2011 17:02

shiv wrote:Where's the ignore button? Admins please don't remove that feature.

No, no and watching too.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Sep 2011 17:22

if it worked in sholay, it must be ok for rudra

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 06 Sep 2011 17:55

When LCH is on the way, then why is there a need for Rudra?
Is this a stop-gap arrangement, or is there a specific use-case that this upgraded helo satisfies ?

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 06 Sep 2011 18:12

LCH and Rudra serves two different purpose, whereas the former is pure attack helo, the latter is a light transport helo with attack capabilities...

So Rudra is not a stop gap or interim arrangement, it has its own purpose...

(My understanding on) Besides, Rudra will greatly boost Army aviation corps with it multi purpose use... It may also help to avoid tussle with IAF regarding no of attack helicopters and who will retain them as, as of now all attack helo are used only by IAF which is also not very keen to shift the function to army. AAC will be ordering them as transport helo while having ability to use the same in attack mode as well thereby reducing dependency on IAF. (My understanding off)

Just my 2 paise

Ramesh · Post by **Ramesh** » 06 Sep 2011 18:16

^^^
Lets see two scenarios:
1. Dhruv comes, few good guys slither down, heli returns back & good guys engage the bad guys.

2. Rudra comes, few good guys slither down & good guys engage the bad guys with rudra acting as aerial fire base.

Which one would you prefer?

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Sep 2011 19:09

Ramesh wrote:^^^
Lets see two scenarios:
1. Dhruv comes, few good guys slither down, heli returns back & good guys engage the bad guys.
2. Rudra comes, few good guys slither down & good guys engage the bad guys with rudra acting as aerial fire base.
Which one would you prefer?

Both these scenario's befit Sholay/Chhattisgarh.

The US used armed Huey's extensively in Vietnam, but that was the 60's and the vietcom did not have SAM's or AA's (in numbers) or an airforce. Porkistan has an inventory of AA guns, rocket launchers, shoulder launched - Stinger, SA-7, Mistral, chinese manpad's; RBS-70. Neither Dhruv or Rudra will survive even the boom of these weapons.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 06 Sep 2011 19:09

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:Where's the ignore button? Admins please don't remove that feature.
No, no and watching too.

Was always curious as to what the watching feature does. Ignore I know as lots of people are on my ignore list.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2011 19:45

the combination of arrogance and ignorance of some people is simply mind blowing.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Sep 2011 20:23

Go easy on the newbie folks

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 06 Sep 2011 20:32

Leo
Then why the hell is the us army operating the armed variant of huey and the Blackhawk or even the little bird???
its role is to act as airborne ICV, by providing suppressing fire on the engaged enemy forces. Its not a stand alone weapon system, but to act as a part of a combined arms force.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 21:06

Leo.Davidson wrote: The US used armed Huey's extensively in Vietnam, but that was the 60's and the vietcom did not have SAM's or AA's (in numbers) or an airforce. Porkistan has an inventory of AA guns, rocket launchers, shoulder launched - Stinger, SA-7, Mistral, chinese manpad's; RBS-70. Neither Dhruv or Rudra will survive even the boom of these weapons.

Saar I believe you are talking through your hat. What is the range of these weapons and what is the height and range and terrain in which the Dhruv will operate. I believe that you have not taken these into consideration simple because you do not know and have not bothered to find out because you don;t even know what information to search for

. Any person can say that an RPG aimed at an exposed helo will take any helo down. That is why the helo crew have to take the aid of terrain and use their weapons from standoff ranges, exposing themselves for a minimum of time from those ranges.

Every battle scene will not have all these weapons and there will definitely be losses, but the scenario you paint is one of ignorance. You will have to write a more detailed post than this your SMS/Twitter level of info to be convincing. Like I said - I believe you are gassing and pretending to be a big expert. We see many on here but you need to pass the test and your posts do not cut it. Your rhetoric is high but substance is sparse. "Wil not stand the "boom" of these weapons and "dotiwalas (What have you got against Kersi - or are you just racist huh?) with .303s" is funny schoolboy stuff -which I enjoy but its all bullshit if you are trying to be serious. Spit it out mate if you actually have some substance or is your hot air expended already?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 06 Sep 2011 21:54

Leo.Davidson wrote:I do not understand why HAL is making and the Army accepting these kindof pussy-fighters.

Really, increased speed & agility by tweaking the airframe. Probably if they tweaked a little more harder we could have a mach helicopter.

Seating two dhotiwallas with 303 rifles with a sack of bumgollas does not make a support weapon for ground troops. The enemy has shoulder fired & mobile SAM's, rocket launchers and AA guns. This is not chhattisgarh.

Where's the freak'n armour, targetting & sight systems ??? Do we need to some of these flies come smoking down before HAL realizes their folly.

Result of excessive rotten corn booze consumption, neurons getting affected

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Sep 2011 22:44

Seating two dhotiwallas with 303 rifles with a sack of bumgollas does not make a support weapon for ground troops. The enemy has shoulder fired & mobile SAM's, rocket launchers and AA guns. This is not chhattisgarh.

Boss Mk3 onwards Dhruv is equipped with laser and missile warning systems, an electronic warfare suit and flare&chaff dispensers. Rudra is Mk4+.