Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 05, 2011

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 06 Sep 2011 02:15

Aaj puccha Pakiban nu, Tu la whore Wicho bol
RAPE Poaqer, Poaqria di Kismat da warka khol
Eh Mix up night manna ke,te kuffar rahiyan Toal
Kitthe teri bandookri , te kithhe tere Goal!!
Idhar bhee kusch najar andaz farmayee, yeh aaap ki naak ke neeche kya ho raja hai .

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 06 Sep 2011 02:27

Somebody on this board mentioned that MMS has never given away any land...Posting this, because it seems that MMS is giving away about 40 sq.km of land...what's to stop him from giving away Kashmir...or is this just the DDM reporting.

This land is their land
Joyeeta Bhattacharjee, Hindustan Times
September 05, 2011

History is all set to be created with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Bangladesh on September 6. While there are quite a few bilateral issues to be addressed, a hallmark of the visit will be the proposed signing of the land swap agreement. The agreement will not only put an end

to the sufferings of the people living on those tracts of land but will also secure our borders.
However, some political parties, mainly the BJP and the Asom Gana Parishad (AGP), have expressed their reservations to such a move on the ground that India will be a loser. Though transfer of territory to another country tends to be a sentimental issue, we have to be pragmatic and focus on the gains.

By signing the land swap agreement, India will gain more than it loses.

India and Bangladesh share 4,094 km of land border. Major border disputes involve the delimitation of the 6.5 km boundary, enclaves and land in adverse possession (LAP).

The land border agreement between India and Bangladesh signed in 1974 could not be implemented due to the assassination of Sheikh Mujibur Rehman, the first prime minister of Bangladesh. Occasional negotiations on this issue yielded no result.

Delay in resolving issues, particularly the enclaves and LAP, not only affected the people living in those areas but also emerged as a source of conflict between the two countries. In total, there are 162 enclaves — 111 belonging to India but inside Bangladesh and 51 belonging to Bangladesh but within India — with about 54,000 people living in them.

In the case of LAP, 34 pieces of India’s land are under Bangladesh’s control while 40 pieces of Bangladesh’s land are under India’s control.

Living in areas totally detached from the mainland and impossible to administer, the people are almost stateless. Worse, they were landlocked, their small patches of lands surrounded by foreign territory.

Absence of an administrative mechanism make these areas susceptible to regular crimes. They also emerged as a major gateway for cross-border crimes like narcotics, arms supply, fake currency, flesh trade and even illegal migration.

Occasionally, these disputed tracts led to violence along the border, with people clashing over conflicting claims to these lands. The problem escalated when border guards would get involved, resulting in cross-border firing. Due to lack of clarity about the border, people entered foreign territory by mistake and became victims of firing by border guards.

The death of their nationals in the hands of the BSF gets regular attention in the Bangladeshi media, leading to increased antagonism towards India. In fact, the anti-BSF sentiment is so strong in Bangladesh that the issue is constantly raised in all bilateral forums.

The swapping of land will bring clarity to the border, which will eventually lead to improved border management that will have ramifications for overall security. This initiative will also help in controlling illegal migration.

Besides, the move will help gain the confidence of the people of Bangladesh. Giving away around 40 sq kilometres of land will show that India is not only a big neighbour but also a large-hearted one.

A change in India’s attitude will reduce scepticism in Bangladesh and lead to a sense of optimism all around.

(Joyeeta Bhattacharjee is associate fellow at the Observer Research Foundation, Delhi. The views expressed by the author are personal)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Sep 2011 02:40

Without clarifying what land is being swapped and given away they expect people of India to trust them. And let a US funded think tank (ORF) explain it in an op-ed in INC supporting paper.

Truly imperial policy.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 06 Sep 2011 02:40

Gifting land to an ungrateful neighbour is a lose lose situation. They will accept what is given and will demand more. If param pujya PMji is in a mood to gift something, then he must gift his Maruti 800 to the BeeDees. The problem with these Oxford Cambridge PhD walas is that they believe in their own theories.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 06 Sep 2011 03:50

Guddu wrote:Besides, the move will help gain the confidence of the people of Bangladesh. Giving away around 40 sq kilometres of land will show that India is not only a big neighbour but also a large-hearted one.

Wah wah! Let us give away all other pieces of our land to our neighbors to show how even larger hearted we are.

It is time for India to show it has a large danda as opposed to a large ar$ehole but then that would disturb Shri MMS, PhD's sleep and we can't have that, can we?

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Sep 2011 04:34

Some of the border that is being rationalized: (from Wiki)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cooch ... atisch.png

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Sep 2011 04:39

JE Menon wrote:What if the next article B. Raman writes is critical of Paks and our policy towards them?

It's amazing how people on BR feel quite confident and certain about accusing others who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do of taking bribes of one sort or another, of selling out themselves and the country to various buyers, etc. And then a few weeks later, another article, or a wikileak comes up which gives a contrary view, and there is remarkable silence among the same individuals.

And then we blame the DDM for not remembering what they wrote a few weeks earlier?

BR is read by a lot of people, and it would be decent of participants to think before they post (at least most of the time) - although both might be little more than a pious hope.

3 cheers! This demonization of people with contrary views, to me, is very symptomatic of Pakistaniat. Please guys, if you feel it coming on, take a good laxative and see if it helps.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Sep 2011 04:58

^ And pray tell us where is B Raman being demonized ? This SDRE trait of getting chaddi in a twist is amusing to say the least.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 05:06

A_Gupta wrote:
JE Menon wrote:What if the next article B. Raman writes is critical of Paks and our policy towards them?

It's amazing how people on BR feel quite confident and certain about accusing others who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do of taking bribes of one sort or another, of selling out themselves and the country to various buyers, etc. And then a few weeks later, another article, or a wikileak comes up which gives a contrary view, and there is remarkable silence among the same individuals.

And then we blame the DDM for not remembering what they wrote a few weeks earlier?

BR is read by a lot of people, and it would be decent of participants to think before they post (at least most of the time) - although both might be little more than a pious hope.
3 cheers! This demonization of people with contrary views, to me, is very symptomatic of Pakistaniat. Please guys, if you feel it coming on, take a good laxative and see if it helps.

No problem JEM/Arun. Yesterday I had a conversation with an angst filled brfite oldie lurker who lamented that Defence.pk are doing far better in inviting and keeping valuable contributors and that BRF has declined to levels that it has never reached before.

I do agree that BRF has stopped being leader and has filled itself with people who react to anything outside of their viewpoint with extreme aggression on the lines of Air Chief says "Inshallah" - therefore he is a closet Paki.

BRF is going steadily downhill. I am somewhat sorry - but I am happy to see many sites that fill up the information needs that BRF used to fill. A subscription to IDRW and some of the good blogs gives a great inputs on defence related stuff. Most sites give varied information on non military and geopolitical stuff and I can reach my own conclusions. On BRF you are no longer allowed to freely express certain opinions because BRF is now free to allow the expression of certain other opinions. When neither was allowed BRF was smaller but had its finger on the pulse. "We" have lost it. This is just another forum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 05:26

negi wrote:^ And pray tell us where is B Raman being demonized ? This SDRE trait of getting chaddi in a twist is amusing to say the least.

No. Calling BRaman a WKK is not "demonization". But it is certainly semantics to imagine that it is nicer and kinder to call someone a WKK on BRF and that it is "not demonization". WKK opinions are disliked on BRF. No person with a WKK opinion will survive on BRF even if he has lost a leg, or a son or a father in combat, such is our patriotism/nationalism. The other point of course is that if someone on BRF somehow feels that B Raman is being demonized, stating that opinion constitutes an "SDRE trait of getting chaddi in a twist". Amusing it certainly is.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 05:32

Guddu wrote:Somebody on this board mentioned that MMS has never given away any land...Posting this, because it seems that MMS is giving away about 40 sq.km of land...what's to stop him from giving away Kashmir...or is this just the DDM reporting.

When it comes to getting any conversation into a rhetorical argumentative twist, I am always game!
"What's to stop MMS from giving away Kashmir". Well we have a whole board full of patriots here who exude strength and confidence. Surely we can stop him? MMS is "weak" anyway.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 06 Sep 2011 05:48

A_Gupta wrote: 3 cheers! This demonization of people with contrary views, to me, is very symptomatic of Pakistaniat. Please guys, if you feel it coming on, take a good laxative and see if it helps.

I am certainly not demonizing BR, but I am puzzled as to what changed in TSP's outlook that he turned from hawk till recently to a dove now? Recall, he is a terrorism expert, and he often used to hammer home TSP's terror strategy against India. Even in his public appearances, he would pummel TSP. So, you tell me, aren't you curious as to why BR is singing a different tune now? Surely not because Kiyani & Hafeez Saeed have turned Gandhian peacenicks.

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Sep 2011 05:53

Well Shiv if that is how one argues a point then no one has any right to call anyone a WKK; come what may but we should talk with Pakistan , isn't this the basic underlying theme followed by the WKKs ? At least that is what I understand from the way term WKK has been used by posters on BRF. In this case B Raman is advocating exactly that , question is, had ARoy or K Nayar written the same piece and the very poster had called them a WKK would it had been ok ?

Lot of posters here (including me) have been called WKKs or paklurks here , may be I am thick skinned but if people start taking offense at such things then I am afraid they will find it difficult to stay in any internet forum.

Classic example a few weeks back someone used the four letter word in TSP thread , someone complained ; Admins banned some other person for using the four letter word in a different thread but I still see the word in use. What gives ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 06:18

negi wrote:Well Shiv if that is how one argues a point then no one has any right to call anyone a WKK; come what may but we should talk with Pakistan , isn't this the basic underlying theme followed by the WKKs ? At least that is what I understand from the way term WKK has been used by posters on BRF.

Nagiji - my view is that a person is allowed to call someone a WKK and express dislike for WKKs.

But I believe that this has become such a cosy club of WKK haters on BRF that the club members are gradually slipping into a separate trajectory of their own and are unable to see or accept some very very uncomfortable truths that will be shoved up the backsides of all Indian patriots - their cognitive dissonance be damned.

Whether an Indian becomes a WKK by loving Pakis, or whether he becomes a WKK for a few pieces of silver is about as far as our analysis goes. But it is more difficult to swallow a more fundamental truth - India just does not have the diplomatic, poitical, military and economic strength to go on a non WKK path. There are plenty of pressures on India to be WKK forcing the likes of even Bharat Karnad to state WKK opinions. But hyperpatriotism on BRF blinds us to the reality of Indian weakness. India is not as powerful a country as it needs to be to follow a BR-ishtyle non WKK path.

Oh of course BRF is full of excuses, prescriptions and explanations. India is WKK because of MMS. India is WKK because of self loathing. India has the military strength to do this. India is wealthy. All we need to do is bring back the money that Maino has stored up in Swaziland. We need to act bold like USA. This is all Blah-rakshak stuff. WKK is is a sign of weakness that forces us to admit that Pakistan exists and will continue to exist unless it fails on its own. We are not going to be able to do anything much. We are going to be forced to lift our dhotis and have Pakisan inserted there by the pressure exerted on us by USA and China and "the world". But this realization causes so much anger and chaddi twisting on BRF that we prefer to go into our own orbit of denial where the "other" is to blame. Weak MMS. WKKs.Arundhoti, Raman. etc.

We all know the truth. We all accept it here. But on BRF we are unable or unwilling to read the writing on the wall. Our nukes are duds. Our technology is dependent on the West. The US dictates to us via Pakistan. China is pulling ahead. Is it any surprise at all that WKK is the only option for those who refuse to be in denial?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Sep 2011 06:29

shiv wrote: No problem JEM/Arun. Yesterday I had a conversation with an angst filled brfite oldie lurker who lamented that Defence.pk are doing far better in inviting and keeping valuable contributors and that BRF has declined to levels that it has never reached before.

I do agree that BRF has stopped being leader and has filled itself with people who react to anything outside of their viewpoint with extreme aggression on the lines of Air Chief says "Inshallah" - therefore he is a closet Paki.

BRF is going steadily downhill. I am somewhat sorry - but I am happy to see many sites that fill up the information needs that BRF used to fill. A subscription to IDRW and some of the good blogs gives a great inputs on defence related stuff. Most sites give varied information on non military and geopolitical stuff and I can reach my own conclusions. On BRF you are no longer allowed to freely express certain opinions because BRF is now free to allow the expression of certain other opinions. When neither was allowed BRF was smaller but had its finger on the pulse. "We" have lost it. This is just another forum.

a) Which sites? Do share

b) Shiv, Defence.pk

I've been to that forum.. you could have used other better analogies. That forum is unadulterated crap. Sorry but there are other better stories out there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 06:36

If anyone can point out flaws in the list below please do so. Once we have Indian capability defined clearly, it should be easy to figure out what to do with Pakistan:

India:

Should test nuclear weapons (India's arsenal is not reliable in the absence of this)
Should develop "megaton" bombs (We dont' have 'em)
Should retake PoK (we can do that, we only lack political will)
is being surrounded by China (Worry. Worry. Worry)
Surrendered meekly to US pressure on nukes and Pakistan (US is a superpower and will handle India while asleep)
would be powerful if it was not for WKKs, Hindu haters and the INC (they are holding India down)
It has been both the USA's intent and China's intent to hold India down.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Sep 2011 06:38

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, self- claimed haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent, 8 die in Green on Green Sub-Sectarian violence pitting Sunnis of the Deoband school of Mohamaddenism against Sunni’s of the Barelvi School of Mohammaddenism:

Godhra Camp violence: Eight killed as two religious groups clash

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 06:38

Jarita wrote:
a) Which sites? Do share

Mentioned in my post. Do read again

Jarita wrote: b) Shiv, Defence.pk I've been to that forum.. you could have used other better analogies. That forum is unadulterated crap. Sorry but there are other better stories out there.

Opinions vary. defence.pk has an Alexa world rank of 12000 or so. BR is 40,000
What better stories? Do share?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 06 Sep 2011 06:42

shiv wrote: A subscription to IDRW and some of the good blogs gives a great inputs on defence related stuff. Most sites give varied information on non military and geopolitical stuff and I can reach my own conclusions. On BRF you are no longer allowed to freely express certain opinions because BRF is now free to allow the expression of certain other opinions. When neither was allowed BRF was smaller but had its finger on the pulse. "We" have lost it. This is just another forum.

Hakim Saab,

Pliss to share the names of your interesting sites and good blogs.

arun · Post by **arun** » 06 Sep 2011 06:43

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Hindu trader shot dead in Hub

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Sep 2011 06:45

shiv wrote:If anyone can point out flaws in the list below please do so. Once we have Indian capability defined clearly, it should be easy to figure out what to do with Pakistan:

India:

Should test nuclear weapons (India's arsenal is not reliable in the absence of this)

Should develop "megaton" bombs (We dont' have 'em)

Should retake PoK (we can do that, we only lack political will)

is being surrounded by China (Worry. Worry. Worry)

Surrendered meekly to US pressure on nukes and Pakistan (US is a superpower and will handle India while asleep)

would be powerful if it was not for WKKs, Hindu haters and the INC (they are holding India down)

It has been both the USA's intent and China's intent to hold India down.

Should test nuclear weapons (India's arsenal is not reliable in the absence of this)

- We'll be starting like babes in the woods and will get totally screwed by the powers that be if we move an inch. We may have lost the opportunity and the cost of testing now may be too high

Should develop "megaton" bombs (We dont' have 'em)

- Refer to previous response

Should retake PoK (we can do that, we only lack political will)

- We'll be fighting a three front war

is being surrounded by China (Worry. Worry. Worry)

- This is true and we are not doing much in this regard. Indias loss of control in Nepal, Sri Lanka and now Myanmar are mega fiascos. The way to control China is to arm and enable the 20+ nations it has border issues with

Surrendered meekly to US pressure on nukes and Pakistan (US is a superpower and will handle India while asleep)

- I think there is underlying tension with US as a result of Indias presence and soft power in Af-pak

would be powerful if it was not for WKKs, Hindu haters and the INC (they are holding India down)
- This may be true

BTW I don't call B Raman a WKK

etc etc

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 06:51

JE Menon wrote:It's amazing how people on BR feel quite confident and certain about accusing others who have done more for India than any of us is ever likely to do of taking bribes of one sort or another, of selling out themselves and the country to various buyers, etc.

So? Rabinder Singh also worked for the Army and RAW for many years.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 06 Sep 2011 06:58

Opinions vary. defence.pk has an Alexa world rank of 12000 or so. BR is 40,000
What better stories? Do share?

Alexa rating is driven by web traffic. I am sure there are plenty on that site right now.

Is this for real - look at the articles

Create an International Military Yogic-Flying Zone in Kashmir
http://www.defence.pk/20110823/create-i ... e-kashmir/

Shiv, there is a whole range of defense forums that are pretty decent. Even the Iranian ones.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 06:59

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 06 Sep 2011 07:24

shiv wrote:We all know the truth. We all accept it here. But on BRF we are unable or unwilling to read the writing on the wall. Our nukes are duds. Our technology is dependent on the West. The US dictates to us via Pakistan. China is pulling ahead. Is it any surprise at all that WKK is the only option for those who refuse to be in denial?

Even if defeat is inevitable, do we need to suffer defeatism as well. Some people just do not wish to give in to fatalism. Is that a sin?

BRF should remain India's prime forum for kicking WKKs, Lizard-Worshippers and Western stooges in their nuts! And if one day, should I become one of them, people are welcome to kick my nuts as well.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Sep 2011 07:32

SBI may expand to Pakistan soon

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 06 Sep 2011 07:32

Shiv wrote:Whether an Indian becomes a WKK by loving Pakis, or whether he becomes a WKK for a few pieces of silver is about as far as our analysis goes. But it is more difficult to swallow a more fundamental truth - India just does not have the diplomatic, poitical, military and economic strength to go on a non WKK path. There are plenty of pressures on India to be WKK forcing the likes of even Bharat Karnad to state WKK opinions. But hyperpatriotism on BRF blinds us to the reality of Indian weakness. India is not as powerful a country as it needs to be to follow a BR-ishtyle non WKK path.

Oh of course BRF is full of excuses, prescriptions and explanations. India is WKK because of MMS. India is WKK because of self loathing. India has the military strength to do this. India is wealthy. All we need to do is bring back the money that Maino has stored up in Swaziland. We need to act bold like USA. This is all Blah-rakshak stuff. WKK is is a sign of weakness that forces us to admit that Pakistan exists and will continue to exist unless it fails on its own. We are not going to be able to do anything much. We are going to be forced to lift our dhotis and have Pakisan inserted there by the pressure exerted on us by USA and China and "the world". But this realization causes so much anger and chaddi twisting on BRF that we prefer to go into our own orbit of denial where the "other" is to blame. Weak MMS. WKKs.Arundhoti, Raman. etc.

We all know the truth. We all accept it here. But on BRF we are unable or unwilling to read the writing on the wall. Our nukes are duds. Our technology is dependent on the West. The US dictates to us via Pakistan. China is pulling ahead. Is it any surprise at all that WKK is the only option for those who refuse to be in denial?

Shiv,

You sound like someone who has thrown in the towel in the ring. So forgive us and other certain posters who refuse to throw in the towel. Perhaps that is why India is in a such inferior position as you claim to be in because people like you and others have thrown in the towel and despair, "We can't win!" when you have not even entered the ring yet. Such mentality will produce defeat after defeat.

When Britain refused to throw in the towel when they were facing defeat in the eyes at the hands of Germans, French, Spanish, you name it and yet fought through, there is a reason why the Brits were such a dominant power. Because of their fighting spirit. Likewise with US, they stared defeat in the eyes when facing against the Brits who had every superiority in nearly all factors and beat the Brits with far less resources than Indian kingdoms had when they fought against the Brits. Same thing with Russia when they stared defeat in the eyes at the hands of Germany and yet became a superpower because they refused to throw in the towel.

So frankly as I am far as concerned, there is nothing wrong with calling those who have thrown in the towel as WKKs.

saip · Post by **saip** » 06 Sep 2011 07:37

Whose bright idea was that? Border between India and Pakistan is so brightly lit it can be seen from space

Link

Is this true?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 08:47

Hitesh wrote: You sound like someone who has thrown in the towel in the ring. So forgive us and other certain posters who refuse to throw in the towel. Perhaps that is why India is in a such inferior position as you claim to be in because people like you and others have thrown in the towel and despair, "We can't win!" when you have not even entered the ring yet. Such mentality will produce defeat after defeat.

Exactly!

Forgive you? Why should anyone forgive your for your opinions, when you and a whole lot of other people are quick to characterize someone else as "having thrown the towel in the ring".

I am only demanding that people stop being derisive of other opinions that they like to characterize as "weak" just because those opinions do not fit in with what they consider as "strong" or "good". It is an opinion. That's all. If that is derisively characterized as weak I am reminded of a certain statement about Hindus by Ayub Khan.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Sep 2011 09:20

Shiv wrote:

But it is more difficult to swallow a more fundamental truth - India just does not have the diplomatic, political, military and economic strength to go on a non WKK path.

My perspective is somewhat different. Namely, the idea that India (or any country for that matter) can do well while a country of the size of Pakistan on its borders becomes another Somalia/Afghanistan requires a huge leap of faith. Hope that it will be manageable is not a plan. In the absence of any other way, some may see it necessary that Pakistan has a lifeline available. Or the slap Pakistan needs to receive should be sufficient to end its hysteria, but not so hard as to knock it unconscious or worse. Is this WKKism? Or is it sober realism?

I have said nothing in the above about any limitations of Indian strength. If you factor that in, the options may become even more limited.

vayu · Post by **vayu** » 06 Sep 2011 10:00

saip wrote:Whose bright idea was that? Border between India and Pakistan is so brightly lit it can be seen from space

Link

Is this true?

Seems to be true. The link below is from the official NASA website.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=52008

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2011 10:50

shiv wrote: I am only demanding that people stop being derisive of other opinions that they like to characterize as "weak" just because those opinions do not fit in with what they consider as "strong" or "good". It is an opinion. That's all. If that is derisively characterized as weak I am reminded of a certain statement about Hindus by Ayub Khan.

I am confused.

Isn't it Sri B Raman who called BRF a hindutva-forum (or he heard some one say that or heard someone read so on another forum or something like that) when some of it's members presented a PoV that is contrarian to Sri B Raman's?

How can two diverse view points (and People who hold them dear/important) be ==?

Why is Sri BR or any other intellectual individual who served a vastly divergent nation like Bharat not able to accept criticism gracefully, especially when there is little change in the lives of commons in india after 60 yrs of independence under the wise rule of INC and current babudom?

Does it mean the current strategy of e-khan-amic progress at any cost, amidst of continual cross-border terror attacks, is failing to an extent that there is no light at the end of the tunnel after all?

Disgusting to say the least.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2011 11:07

I agree with Shiv.BRF used to be more objective and less subjective years ago.The "political correctness" that some are demanding of BR posters and ACM Browne who was using a much-used phrase to inform us of the state of affairs reg. the MMRCA decision,is dragging the quality of the Forum down.If you don't like someone's post or dsagree with him then argue your case effectively with facts,not rhetoric! The truth lies often in-between.Black and white scenarios and demands "either you are with us or against us" are infantile attitudes not becoming of a noble institution like BR!

So let us henceforth treat each other with more respect and argue like hell objectively when we differ ."Seconds out of the ring...box on!"

Now onto Pak,the topic.The Wikileak about Gen.Bandicoot and MMS almost reaching an agreement needs to be further debated.The terms of the agreement are certainly interesting and we should remember that back-street channels in Indo-Pak relations have been a regular factor.Was such an agreement in principle a feasible one? Was it due to US pressure on MMS? Is he too soft a man to play hardball with our neighbours? Let's have some more intelligent debate on it please.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 11:10

Philip wrote:I agree with Shiv.BRF used to be more objective and less subjective years ago.The "political correctness" that some are demanding of BR posters and ACM Browne who was using a much-used phrase to inform us of the state of affairs reg. the MMRCA decision,is dragging the quality of the Forum down.If you don't like soimeone's post or dsagree with him then argue your case effectively with facts,not rhetoric! The truth lies often in-between.Black and white scenarios and demands "either you are with us or against us" are infantile attitudes not becoming of a noble institution like BR!

So let us henceforth treat each other with moire respect and argue like hell objectively when we differ ."Seconds out of the ring...box on!"

...
Let's have some more intelligent debate on it please.

Do you remember all this when you write about MMS?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 06 Sep 2011 11:17

>>So? Rabinder Singh also worked for the Army and RAW for many years.

And this is the problem, symptomatic of what is happening. Everyone with a different view, even slightly, is denigrated by association, or by mis-characterisation, or simply by totally unfounded allegation, unfounded by any evidence that is. Rabinder Singh is clearly a traitor who has defected to the US and the case is as clear as it is going to get. I will not even dignify that statement in regard to the person the comparison was made with.

Having said that, it would be equally viable to accuse a group of posters on BRF, from a certain area distribution in the US, of ganging up together to bombard the forum with posts that shift its basically centrist orientation (with occasional swings either to the left or right) permanently in one direction. It would be quite viable to make the case, that there are some who wish to make the tilt in one direction permanent and that an understanding has been reached in this regard. It could be said also that fairly well considered attempts at covering tracks are not wholly under the radar.

This can be an inexpensive operation by any one of several possible ill-wishers. But most likely it is something that people who consider themselves "patriots" are doing in the anticipation that it will benefit their worldview. It will not. It will only succeed in wounding, perhaps fatally, what has been for a long long time a perfectly respectable forum, which has been quite useful to a large cross-section of society. There will be people who are loath to see it undermined in this way.

There is no case being made that B Raman's or any one else's opinion cannot be rebutted, or even trashed with reasoned argument. But if the case is B Raman said this therefore he's a pro-Pak, weakneed, WKK possibly getting silver, or MMS said this, therefore he is selling-out the country for personal benefit... And it is systematically done over a period of months, while such vitriol is never reserved for any others, one begins to wonder whether the objective is political and if it has anything to do with a bipartisan love for the country which is what BR was founded upon, I believe.

So I appeal to those who are doing what they are doing to think whether what they are doing is wise.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Sep 2011 11:30

JE Menon wrote: And this is the problem, symptomatic of what is happening. Everyone with a different view, even slightly, is denigrated by association, or by mis-characterisation, or simply by totally unfounded allegation, unfounded by any evidence that is. Rabinder Singh is clearly a traitor who has defected to the US and the case is as clear as it is going to get. I will not even dignify that statement in regard to the person the comparison was made with.

It appears that you did not understand the argument. Just because someone worked in the army/govt/RAW does not imply that his/her actions should not be questioned. You can find some more examples of disreputable behavior in the book "India's external intelligence". Not all government officials sacrifice their life in Siachen.

I did not say anything about B. Raman's character.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 06 Sep 2011 11:35

JE Menon wrote:There is no case being made that B Raman's or any one else's opinion cannot be rebutted, or even trashed with reasoned argument. But if the case is B Raman said this therefore he's a pro-Pak, weakneed, WKK possibly getting silver, or MMS said this, therefore he is selling-out the country for personal benefit... And it is systematically done over a period of months, while such vitriol is never reserved for any others, one begins to wonder whether the objective is political and if it has anything to do with a bipartisan love for the country which is what BR was founded upon, I believe.

So I appeal to those who are doing what they are doing to think whether what they are doing is wise.

Absolutely JEM.

Folks, let us fiercely criticize anybody else's PoV but let us not attribute motives listed above by JEM for such a PoV without really knowing whether such an accusation is valid.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Sep 2011 12:10

shiv wrote: India:

Should test nuclear weapons (India's arsenal is not reliable in the absence of this)

Should develop "megaton" bombs (We dont' have 'em)

Should retake PoK (we can do that, we only lack political will)

is being surrounded by China (Worry. Worry. Worry)

Surrendered meekly to US pressure on nukes and Pakistan (US is a superpower and will handle India while asleep)

would be powerful if it was not for WKKs, Hindu haters and the INC (they are holding India down)

It has been both the USA's intent and China's intent to hold India down.

Anyone who agrees with the above list can certainly be "hopeful" about India's ability but believing such a list IMO means being WKK is the only serious option for India. If you can eliminate or effectively counter each point as being false then the likelihood of "no optiin but WKK" is reduced.

The above liist is a summary of commonly stated BRF truisms. Are the listed points true or not?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Sep 2011 12:10

i echo the thoughts of others above - the quality of debate and analysis on BRF has deteriorated over the past few years. there is much greater intolerance and much more ranting - there is a definite groupthink mentality towards the right of the political spectrum, and many contrary views are screamed down.

ultimately we can elect with our feet, but that would be a shame

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2011 12:26

shiv wrote: India:

Should test nuclear weapons (India's arsenal is not reliable in the absence of this)

Should develop "megaton" bombs (We dont' have 'em)

Should retake PoK (we can do that, we only lack political will)

is being surrounded by China (Worry. Worry. Worry)

Surrendered meekly to US pressure on nukes and Pakistan (US is a superpower and will handle India while asleep)

would be powerful if it was not for WKKs, Hindu haters and the INC (they are holding India down)

It has been both the USA's intent and China's intent to hold India down.

Isn't it a fact that the so-called WKK group (by above definition - yours not mine) is in control of Indian governance, strategy, administration for most of past 60 years?

If they are right then india is definitely on the right track. That itself should make a jingo (opposite of WKK) happy right? So what is the khulji?

I am sincerely confused.