Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 2011

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menon s
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by menon s »

U.S. forces amass on Afghan-Pakistan border, ready for attack on feared Taliban faction

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1bCUbCry2
U.S. military troops are positioning on the Pakistan border in eastern Afghanistan ahead of a likely drone missile attack against militants from the Haqqani network, a feared faction of the Taliban.
The American build-up, which includes helicopter gunships, heavy artillery and hundreds of U.S. and Afghan military personnel, has reportedly caused panic in Pakistan’s north Waziristan, a usually safe haven for Haqqani fighters.
Pakistan Army sources told the Telegraph that the American plan was to force the tribal militia from their bases and into Afghanistan, where they will be 'encircled, arrested or killed.'

The high profile meeting this week, headed by the sec of state, the Chairman of joint chief of staff, the head of CIA and the sec of defense to Pakistan, in the light of these developments, means great GUBO is on offer.

and ISPR releases in URDU today morning:
Afghan elaqon se hamlay roknay k liye Pak Army aur FC k dastay Pak Afghan border par bhej diye. ISPR Pak Army
Last edited by menon s on 19 Oct 2011 09:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

A massive towel is being thrown in by a former diplomat. I am posting only the nuggets after avoiding all the whining. The entire article is worth a read.
Factors threatening Pakistan’s survival
The rudest and unforgettable jolt that sliced this country into two halves came in 1971. Pakistan’s former smaller part now called Bangladesh is believed to have become a haven for the Pakistani entrepreneurs and industrialists. They are seeking refuge and investing in that erstwhile part of Pakistan. Bangladesh is one fifth of the size of the existing Pakistan while its population is a little less than that of Pakistan. Yet the violence, the social disorder, the colossal upheaval, the gross mismanagement, the loathsome governance; the chronically corrupt, self serving and inept leadership that one can witness in Pakistan is not hugely attributed to Bangladesh.
India is dreaming to walk into the shoes of an economic and technological giant and a regional power that aspires to countenance China. Pakistan looks a midget in comparison to neighboring India now leaping forward at a terrific speed in technology, with its stable democratic tradition and with ballooning economic boom.Pakistan is trapped in huge debts and earns unenviable reputation as a failed state. The leadership that we have is not worth a stack of chaff. A country ablaze with leaping fires of violence, with shameful and futile proxy wars being fought by its armed forces on its own territory, with the contagious curse of sectarian, ethnic and regional bad blood spilled all over; the hope for a better future is dimming fast. Is there is way-out for revival of Pakistan?

And.. [drumroll] :D
If there are no immediate short-term or long term solutions of these and similar other burning questions that revolve around the viability, welfare and survival of Pakistan, then mark my words there is no hope for the people to survive in a cohesive united, geographically contiguous land as it is now. The drift and disintegration is hovering over horizons of Pakistan and sooner or later it would descend and lead to an unstoppable decay and further dismemberment of the residue Islamic Republic of Pakistan.
Army is a privileged class by itself. Army bungled in East Pakistan in 1971 and has donned a mercenary role for the past two decades. It devours most of the state funds and sits idle otherwise. Kashmir cannot not be gained by force or by the military means. India militarily is several times powerful than Pakistan. So when would the time to protect the territorial integrity of Pakistan come? And if it comes can our meager army repel the aggression? Are our civil and military leaders aware that Pakistan army is outmatched by India in relation to its military equipment and number? The religious bands of all hue and cries are busy always in wrecking the peace and tranquillity of the state. They mercilessly annihilate each other in the name of sectarianism and different strands of faith. The Islamic Republic has become the hunting ground for Islamic sectarian chauvinism. The religious multitudes pose a stupendous threat to the normal and smooth functioning of Pakistan.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Prasad »

menon s wrote:U.S. forces amass on Afghan-Pakistan border, ready for attack on feared Taliban faction

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1bCUbCry2
U.S. military troops are positioning on the Pakistan border in eastern Afghanistan ahead of a likely drone missile attack against militants from the Haqqani network, a feared faction of the Taliban.
The American build-up, which includes helicopter gunships, heavy artillery and hundreds of U.S. and Afghan military personnel, has reportedly caused panic in Pakistan’s north Waziristan, a usually safe haven for Haqqani fighters.
Pakistan Army sources told the Telegraph that the American plan was to force the tribal militia from their bases and into Afghanistan, where they will be 'encircled, arrested or killed.'

The high profile meeting this week, headed by the sec of state, the Chairman of joint chief of staff, the head of CIA and the sec of defense to Pakistan, in the light of these developments, means great GUBO is on offer.
Parakram redux?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Satya_anveshi »

It is amusing to see that on the one hand paki army is indulging in sabre rattling with US in arriving at an "honorable" terms of engagement", on the other hand, usual paki entertainer dr. Rehman Malik is seeking surrendering of arms before peace talk with talibananas.

this does not add up. We all know this joker does not utter a word with out getting a 'go' from Gilanahi, who in turn cannot divert from the script given to him by kiyanahi.

it looks like the plan is US will take some chotu motu guys even as paki army put up act to unchain itself.

goose of those talibananas relying upon puki army is cooked; if this is sufficiently exposed even before the operation, fireworks in pak will increase manifold
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by RajeshA »

Dilbu ji,

that is no towel, that is a major tambu! :wink:

It deserves a place in the "Managing Pakistan's failure" "Hall of Fame"! :D

I'll cross post!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

TSP is again reying on its delaying tactics by taking a leaf out of Indian MEA's book ie, chai biskoot with all parties involved. Amirkhans have fallen for this trick several times in the past. We have heard a lot of statements from them earlier like 'TSPA needs time to organise an attack on N. waziristan', 'TSPA is negotiating with good taliban' etc. But now suddenly amrikhans reallised that this was just delaying tactics and unless you push TSPA physically, nothing gets done on the ground. Hence the two pronged approach of NATO chief saying we should work more closely with TSP administration and at the same time stepped up national bird programme and ISAF troop mobilisation across Afghan border.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Prem: re:
Abb ki Baar Maar Ke Dekh
Of course Prem - the duffer is angling to provide a "marvaane ka nazaara" for his closest and dearest by his favorate target, the kufur gora lok.

But seriously, the last two days have been quite amazing in terms of ground breaking journalism covering the paki. The paki, however, continues to publish gibberish (such as what you picked up) suggesting that they are not in the least concerned. Then there are minor random events (some not so minor) which become source of interesting speculation - ok so I can get it started :mrgreen: Just by coincidence a couple of pakis hailed with bullets at the RJ border, while across the paki, similar paki emissaries are greeted by the Iranians. And speaking of Iranians, how about them ayatollahs, hain ji? went for halaal of the saudi ambassador to Amrika, right in Amrika's back yard, using a dimwitted iranian of republican guard extraction - then to top it all, the paki steps up smartly to condole with the fellow muslimic brothers of iran on their treatment by the Amrikans. random, I know, but on sept 10 ten years ago, Masood did not live long enough to see 9/11. And from the not so minor department are the prisoner swap by the Israelis, and on the paki border, US/Afghan forces unclaw claws and sharpen fangs. That bit about the kidnapped Israeli certainly puts up some Guiness record for the most asymmetrical hostage swap. Interesting also that more than a third of the released faithfools from Israel went to Syria. Surprising that Assad has any authority left to welcome Israeli prisoners on such large scale. I recall the Iran-Iraq war - the one before all the others involving iraq. Saddam had sent money to the paki baloch to stir up the irani baloch, and that was when came the "first blochi war of liberation", brutally terminated by the paki army with some 40,000 baloch dead. The bhutto father serpent was responsible for that, having got the money from iranians and weapons from the US. Now that was practice forAfghanistan, by the paki. you know, may be it makes no difference now, but Indian agents in the ME worked with the Iraqis - on their balochistan project through Afghanistan (and the paki might vent extreme paranoia about the bhartias, but that was India working its own interests in that war. Come to think of it, it was that Bhartiya collaboration between Dilli and Baghdad that later helped India protect its interests in Iraq. So now, in a random way by inconsequental minor events, all that comes together on the pakis borders or otherwise connected to those borders - pakis attempting to cross into India and Iran, palestinian prisoners handed to Assad on condition they may not be returned to the west bank or Ghaza (where will po' ole' Assad send them - the free and terroristically sophisticated paki republic of islamicstan)? Small and large events seem to recur to events in another war that may well impact how events unfold in Afghanistan. Boy, that is a lot of speculation with whatever significance that they may turn out to have, so please feel free to add and subtract to generate other narratives, and if only one of them becomes fruitful, that will be speculation well practiced, not to mention it will drive the paki more nuts, if that is possible.Last but not least, as is entirely predictable by the theorems of N^3 regarding the paki's social/political behavior. :lol:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by parsuram »

Dilbu ji: re:
The rudest and unforgettable jolt that sliced this country into two halves came in 1971. Pakistan’s former smaller part now called Bangladesh is believed to have become a haven for the Pakistani entrepreneurs and industrialists. They are seeking refuge and investing in that erstwhile part of Pakistan.(this is a bunch of bullsht- the paki lafangas have no interest in investing, and certainly not among the Beedees. Bangladesh is one fifth of the size of the existing Pakistan while its population is a little less than that of Pakistan. used to be ten percent more - but unfortunatly for Bharat, those Beedees copulate and breed like mosquitos Yet the violence, the social disorder, the colossal upheaval, the gross mismanagement, the loathsome governance; the chronically corrupt, self serving and inept leadership that one can witness in Pakistan is not hugely attributed to Bangladesh.
For all the ways the Beedis have out done the paki, after Kargil, I provided this forum an execellent moniker for the paki state:

____________________ A BIG, BIG, VERY VERY BIG DRUM ROLL PLEASE ________

__________WEST BUNGLE-DESH__________
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Pratyush »

US should focus on Afghanistan, not Pakistan: Kayani

The challenge has been issued by the No Kiya. How will the Khante respond.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by SSridhar »

When Gen. Kayani threatens the US by saying that TSP is a nuclear power, as reported by Times Now channel, doesn't he mean that the PA would use TNWs (recently acquired Nasr launcher and the TNWs) against the US Army ? Surely, TSP has no other means of nuclear retaliation against the US.

Or, does he mean that TSP would attack India with nuclear weapons as Saddam did to Israel during Op Desert Storm ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Lalmohan »

kiyanahin will be outwardly barking for paablick consumption, but behind closed doors he will gubo to madama klingon and her photon torpedo
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posting from "Managing Pakistan's failure" Thread

A BS article trying to sympathize with Paki PoV!

Published on Oct 19, 2011
By John R. Schmidt
Pakistan's Alternate Universe: Foreign Policy
What possible motive does Islamabad have for supporting Afghanistan's bloody insurgency?
India, for its part, has moved into Afghanistan in a big way since 9/11, opening an embassy and four consulates, sending in thousands of aid workers, and providing almost $2 billion in aid. Just last Tuesday, Oct. 4, Kabul and New Delhi signed a strategic partnership agreement in which India agreed to help train and equip Afghan security forces. The Indians, long angered by Pakistani support for jihadi groups in Kashmir, sense a golden opportunity to threaten Pakistan on its western border and are determined to make the most of it.

Observing these developments, the Pakistanis have become increasingly alarmed at the prospect that they may be encircled by their historic foes. Pakistani support for the Afghan Taliban needs to be understood in this light. It is not that the Pakistanis like the Taliban, whose support for al Qaeda prior to 9/11 ended up causing them so much grief, or even that they trust them, since they almost certainly do not. :rotfl: But faced with the alternative of a hostile Afghan government allied to India, supporting the Afghan Taliban is a relatively easy choice for Islamabad.

The United States is well aware of Pakistani concerns about the Indian presence in Afghanistan but has done little to address them. The Indians do not like outsiders meddling in their affairs, and Washington has been unwilling to risk alienating a country it seeks as a partner in countering Chinese influence in Asia. Instead of pressuring India, Washington has tried to buy off the Pakistanis with financial and military assistance and even offered them a strategic partnership of their own. Its message to Islamabad has been that it intends to remain engaged in the region and that, despite the growing Indian presence in Afghanistan, there is really nothing to worry about. This has proved to be a hard sell for Pakistanis, who remember all too well that the United States abandoned the region after working together with Islamabad to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan and then imposed sanctions on them only 18 months later in retaliation for their nuclear program.
My comments
Let's show more understanding for Terrorists!
The author seems to be making a case that we need to only understand the motivations of the terrorists, show some consideration for their political aims, give them what they want, and all our problems would be solved!

USA, its generals and the think-tanks have been taken to the cleaners by the Pakistani Generals and politicians.

1) The Taliban + Al Qaeda regime in Afghanistan prior to 9/11 was supported wholeheartedly by Pakistan. There would have been no Taliban if Pakistan had not supported the movement. There would have been no Al Qaeda in Afghanistan if Pakistan had not facilitated their movement to and fro from Afghanistan.

2) It was ISI itself which facilitated the 9/11 attacks on USA, as one knows from the money transfer made to Mohammed Atta in Hamburg, the 9/11 hijacker. Al Qaeda was simply an accomplice of ISI.

3) It was Pakistanis who gave US the impression that Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan, and directed US ire towards Afghanistan, even though all major Al Qaeda figures have been captured in Pakistani cities itself.

4) It was Pakistan which facilitated America's invasion of Afghanistan, with the express condition of having their "assets" in Afghanistan airlifted by none other than USA to Pakistan.

5) Pakistan was able to save all their assets in Afghanistan including all Taliban leaders, most Al Qaeda leaders, all of whom found sanctuary in Pakistan.

6) By getting America occupying Afghanistan, Pakistan had American exactly where it wanted it - dependent on Pakistan for supply routes.

7) Through this dependence Pakistanis have been able to blackmail Americans to finance their anti-Indian war machine and to bolster their economy.

8 ) What Pakistanis have provided to America were some Al Qaeda members who were dispensable and disposable after they had done their part.

9) When Pakistanis speak of their casualties, they mean the Pushtuns from their paramilitaries, who too are just cannon fodder. It is a big joke when Pakistanis say they have made big sacrifices in the War on Terror. They have only thrown a whole lot of dispensable poor Pushtuns to the wolves. The Pakistanis themselves are sitting pretty in their defense colonies with all the facilities subsidized by the American taxpayer.

10) Pakistanis have basically made America into a monkey, whose hand is now stuck in the Afghanistan jar, and America is begging Pakistan to get its hand free.

11) Let's not forget that Osama bin Laden was ensconsed in Pakistan for almost 10 years under the loving care of the Pakistani Army. When Americans took down OBL in Operation Geronimo, the Americans experienced a unique moment of clarity when Pakistan's mask slipped.

12) Pakistanis completely control the whole anti-American insurgency in Afghanistan. Americans call it the Taliban insurgency. The blood of 1812 US soldiers is on the hands of the Pakistanis. Of course, it is an old habit of Pakistanis to plead for plausible deniability.

13) When Adm. Mullen recently said that the Haqqani Network is a veritable arm of the ISI, there was another moment of clarity for Americans.

So America has paid so much in blood and treasure to prop up the Pakistanis, and America has been made a fool all the way!

And all this author comes up with is how to appease the Pakistanis even more, by first understanding what they want! Ack-thoo! There are many American leaders still intent on putting the mask back on on Pakistan's face!

The Truth is: Pakistani Army is the Godfather of Al Qaeda and Taliban! Pakistani Army is the HQ. of Global Jihad! And it exerts its power by getting America and Saudi Arabia to finance its Global Jihad and getting China to provide it with a nuclear shield. Pakistani Army is the Head of the Snake!

If America takes down Pakistani Army, it would have crushed the Head of the Jihadi Snake! But there are all sorts of journalists interested in convincing the Americans that actually the tail of the Snake is the head!

Pakistan is veritably like the Snake with a Fake Head on its Tail!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by partha »

SSridhar wrote:When Gen. Kayani threatens the US by saying that TSP is a nuclear power, as reported by Times Now channel, doesn't he mean that the PA would use TNWs (recently acquired Nasr launcher and the TNWs) against the US Army ? Surely, TSP has no other means of nuclear retaliation against the US.

Or, does he mean that TSP would attack India with nuclear weapons as Saddam did to Israel during Op Desert Storm ?
What are Paki nuke weapons for? I will not be surprised if many in Pakistan are actually hoping US would attack them so they can exploit the situation by attacking India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by menon s »

Pakistan awaits US nod for deal on rules of engagement
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... engagement
Sources privy to these developments were of the view that diplomatic efforts by Pakistan and the United States to reset their relations have hit snags in materialising the crucial visit of the US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton to Pakistan. The sources said that an important meeting was held Tuesday at the Foreign Office, which reviewed the progress on Hilary Clinton’s proposed visit, decided not to budge from Pakistan’s principal stance.
The meeting chaired by Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar that was attended by Director General ISI Lt General Ahmed and Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir resolved that country’s supreme national interests would not be comprised at any cost.
The sources said that US Secretary of State wants to pay a short visit to Pakistan during this week but diplomatic efforts hit snags after Pakistan reiterated its demand for a written agreement on new rules of engagement for fruitful cooperation in the war against terror.
Can anyone tell me what this "new rules of engagement " are supposed to be?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

My be they are placing more restrictions on unkil operating drones and collecting intelligence inside TSP.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by ashish raval »

If Bharat is attacked with nukes
that will be a mass suicide for Pakistan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

What will happen more likely is as follows, the INC will call it an RSS conspiracy. The MMS govt will try to call an all party meet. The BJP will call for the resignation of the GOI. LKA will go on Bharat Yatra against the GOI for allowing the TSP nuke attack.

The NAC will launch a Dharna against the Planning commission for the failure to anticipate the TSP Nuke attack. IAC will say that only Sonia can prevent the nuke from falling on the Indian soil. Anna will go on a hunger strike. Baba Ramdev, will say that his medicines and yoga can cure radiation sickness.

The WKKs will travel to TSP in order to receive the Indian Nuke Retaliation that will never come.

IOW, it will be business as usual.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Altair »

Pratyush wrote: IOW, it will be business as usual.
The GoI agreement with Afghanistan is a clue of things to come. I am pretty certain GoI knew about this Operation: American Parakram well in advance.The GoI also have a good idea about American exit strategy. It is us who have no clue about either. Let us just sit quiet and listen to all the noises which are coming out and make some sense and put all the pieces together. Particular attention must be paid to our eastern neighbor, they are usually very silent but do some very naughty things.
End of the day, the winner is the one who comes out with less manageable losses and loser is the one who sustains more unsustainable losses.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Lalmohan »

there will be no american exit from afghanistan. they will keep substantial number of advisors on hand. a number of statements have hinted in that direction for some time. although more and more i think there will be a US base in gwadar in free baluchistan anda high grade motorable road to afghanistan from there
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Raja Ram »

Watching the developments of slow motion disintegration of Pakistan, and reading up on the many posts here and doing my own thinking, I think there are a few thoughts that I can contribute to the debate.

Essentially it revolves around the theme "Limits of Power - Balancing on the Power Edge". Simply put, the benefactors of Pakistan, India and the power centres inside Pakistan have certain limits to the power that they all wield and based on those limits they need to do a tight rope walk to achieve their major objectives.

What precisely are the contours of the limits? What are the options available? What kind of objectives can be achieved? These are the questions, my little brain is presently engaged in exploring these questions. I shall share the findings of this quest through a ramble soon.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by sum »

And the ball-biter is back after his "retirement" comes to an end:
Afridi withdraws retirement

Shahid Afridi has withdrawn his international retirement and says he is available for selection for Pakistan in the limited-over formats. Afridi had announced a 'conditional' retirement from international cricket in May, after having been stripped of the ODI captaincy, saying he would return if there were changes in the PCB and the team management.

Since then, Waqar Younis has quit as coach of the national team and Ijaz Butt has been replaced as PCB chairman by Zaka Ashraf. Afridi said he had not really retired but had only said he wouldn't play under the previous (Ijaz Butt-led) board.

"I didn't as such retire," Afridi told reporters in Karachi on Tuesday. "I only said I would not play under the previous board but now the people are changed - exactly as I had wanted - so I am available for selection for the country."
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by krishnan »

Lalmohan wrote:there will be no american exit from afghanistan. they will keep substantial number of advisors on hand. a number of statements have hinted in that direction for some time. although more and more i think there will be a US base in gwadar in free baluchistan anda high grade motorable road to afghanistan from there
I think pakis have learned a bitter truth , it being that not only are they not going to leave afgan , but they are going to take pakiland too
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Altair »

Lalmohan wrote:there will be no american exit from afghanistan. they will keep substantial number of advisors on hand. a number of statements have hinted in that direction for some time. although more and more i think there will be a US base in gwadar in free baluchistan and a high grade motorable road to afghanistan from there
Lalmohan
I understand you but can you please give your opinion on
Any possible major re-alignment of American forces in the Af-Pak theater of operations?
and What role does India have from 2014 and run up to 2014 in a security point of view?
Altair
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by CRamS »

ashish raval wrote:If Bharat is attacked with nukes
that will be a mass suicide for Pakistan
You've got to be kidding me. At best MMS & Co will fight with dosas as we saw how bravely and courageously they did post 26/11. Then of course, the west and India's vast trove of WKKs and 5th columnists will blame India for nuclearizing "South Asia", "human rights violations" in Kashmir etc. MMS/Sonia/DogVijay and their minions on Undie and IBN will start a series on Hinduthva terror, arrest a few RSS blokes, and raid Baba Ramdev's Yoga camp. And here on BR, many will extol the Chankyan virtues of MMS, compare it with US is behaving equally or even more meekly towards TSP, and of course, the mother of all volleys, how MMS & Co have handled TSP post such a nuke attack, and contrast that with Jassu bhai hand in hand with Masood Azhar. Menawhile, while Mumnai or Chennai or watever other city is annhilated, the rest of India will go about their business, maybe even cricket matches will be held, the world will hail the spirit of whatever India that is left.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by krishnan »

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111019.htm
Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani has not ruled out the possibility of an American ground offensive in North Waziristan, but told parliamentarians at a briefing that Washington will have to think many times before launching such an attack.

"They (the US) might do it but they will have to think 10 times because Pakistan is not Iraq or Afghanistan," The Express Tribune quoted Kayani.

His comments came at a rare briefing held on Tuesday for members of the standing committees on defence of the two houses of parliament at the general headquarters that went on for over three hours.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Lalmohan »

Altair
the US has had two publicly declared policy options before the afghan surge - 1. surge, 2. leave behind a COIN/counter terrorist advisory force in place to assist afghan forces, in the end they have taken both options. they've surged and had some face saving success - the net result being the outing of pakistan from the true-green jihadi closet. if they totally withdraw from afpak - the former equation of a compliant pakistan holding fort for them is no longer there. therefore the protection over arabian oil and dominance over central asian oil is lost. russia and china will both compete for this space - and the US cannot cede it without a munna in place. india has refused to be a munna - but will play ball for the time being. the plan for pakistan is soft-regime change - given how unstable and uncertain their nuke options are. india will be the anvil on which unkil hammers pakistan into its new shape - but it will be done gently - or as gently as pakistan allows it to happen. there will be no indian boots on the ground in afghanistan - atleast not in strength, apart from advisors to indian trained afghan army and police units. unkil has stated that he might retain 10-20k troops in such a scenario in afganistan. unkil does not want to provoke pakistan into a nuclear option - apart from the threat to american bases in the region and JDAM's in the homeland, they are probably convinced through close interaction with the psycho's in rawalpindi that they will take the samson option and hit india. they also believe that india will respond in kind - and the outcome of that scenario is not easily manageable. hence soft landing it is.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by menon s »

US forces report jump in infiltration from Pak
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-fo ... k/862130/0
There were at least 102 "close-border" attacks against three US outposts in Paktika since May, compared to 13 such incidents during the same period last year, it said.
When contacted by US troops, Pakistani military officers at the border often say they are not aware of the rocket fire or cannot see it, even though the fire is often coming from positions next to Pakistani military or Frontier Corps posts, the Times reported.
Given the degree of sophistication and coordination displayed in the attacks, some US officers strongly suspect the Pakistani military or intelligence service is involved in the rocket fire, the paper said.
The rise in cross-border fire comes amid deep strains in US-Pakistan relations in the aftermath of the bin Laden raid and following accusations from former top US military officer Admiral Mike Mullen that Islamabad was supporting Haqqani militant attacks on US forces in Afghanistan.
i donot know, if this is a civilizational collapse, nothing seems to make the American loose his anger? tell me what is that , that will make an American rage over these days?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by gakakkad »

MEANWHILE

Pakistan acting by mere thumb twiddling of the US..

Pakistan hoping that US in its own self interest will fund the "Huge" 4500 MW dam

US acting in its self interest and playing the game of real-politik

Intel in American self interest offers Jazia for sharia compliant laptops


We can clearly see that US the great super-power is making pakistan do there dirty work and pakistan is moving like an ant in the palm of the great super-power playing a great game of real politik...

Tallel deepel fliend backs TSP for USNC
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

X-post from Af-Pak dhaga.
Afghan, NATO troops targeting Haqqani network
The United States, as part of an effort to bolster, train, and equip the Afghan Army, has provided billions of dollars in equipment but has balked at supplying sophisticated technology like fighter planes, arguing that Afghanistan doesn’t need such armaments and does not yet have the capacity to maintain them.

Wardak said about $10 billion has already been allocated by the United States to equip and train the country’s army and police. He said another package totaling about $10 billion is being discussed, but must still be approved by US lawmakers.

According to the NATO coalition, $2.7 billion in equipment has arrived or will arrive between August 2011 and March 2012. This includes about 22,700 vehicles, 39,500 weapons, 52,200 pieces of communication equipment, and 38 aircraft.


Training the Afghan security forces is a top priority for the US-led international coalition that has been battling the Taliban and affiliated insurgents for the past decade. NATO wants to withdraw its combat forces by the end of 2014 and needs its Afghan counterparts to be ready to assume full security responsibilities by then
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

4 killed in Karachi shooting incident
KARACHI: Four people were killed by armed attackers in the Nagan Chorangi area of North Karachi, Express 24/7 reported on Wednesday.

Eyewitness said the attackers, who were on motorbikes, also injured four people who were sitting outside a shop in the area in the shooting incident.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Satya_anveshi »

menon s wrote:Can anyone tell me what this "new rules of engagement " are supposed to be?
menon s ji,

IMO, new "rules of engagement" is Kunduj II, Clinton launching missiles and killing innocent goats II, climate change in cashmere II (meaning nov/dec winter months which are typically associated with low levels transformed to hot activity), and ofcourse carry & langoor II (meaning blood money and arms for killing some innocent goats).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by SSridhar »

ashish raval wrote:If Bharat is attacked with nukes
that will be a mass suicide for Pakistan
Ashish, that could well be true. However. . .let's see why Pakistan may go ahead with an attack on us.

Pakistan's propensity to misread Indian intentions is legendary. Again, there are countless examples for this tendency. Since, the nation state (nominal !) of Pakistan is founded on myth-making by Jinnah and his band of Muslim Leaguers, that legacy has been found in abundant measure in succeeding leaders as well. Once a myth is created, the closed mindset of most Pakistanis (a signal contribution by the way Islam is practised in that country)would not let that myth to be disturbed by reality. The myth not only survives but also grows in size.

We know that Pakistan feels that it operates with impunity as far as its terrorism against us goes because it is not punished enough for its misadventures even after the greatest provocations. Within the PA, the same feeling extends to its military operations against us too, thanks to the same myth-making, in spite of increasingly massive defeats since 1947. Among many other reasons for attacking us, I consider two as important. Pakistan Army has internalized these two things in its institutional memory and it has not refined or corrected these two in spite of reverses and defeats in its wars and skirmishes with us.

One is, crudely put, that India lacks the will and guts to go after Pakistan. Two is, international intervention would stop India in its tracks and save Pakistan. That is, there is time and space for Pakistan to escape serious punishment from India after it provokes even a docile India into action.

Many examples could be given to prove this. The latest is the series of events that followed the December 13, 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament by JeM & LeT with the backing of the ISI. Unlike 1993 or Mumbai commuter train attacks or serial attacks thereafter across many Indian cities or even the 26/11 carnage, the Indian Parliament attack resulted in mobilization by the IA. There was an event within the event when Kaluchak also happened in May 2002.

From initial accounts by various American personnel on the ground in Islamabad/Rawalpindi in connection with the on-going Operation Enduring Freedom, the PA believed that Indian mobilization was not something to be concerned about. The full enormity of Op Parakram dawned on them only when they realized that IA units from the east were moving in too. Now, look at the nonchalance of the PA. It planned the worst attack on the symbol of Indian sovereignty and democracy in a decapitation attack (which failed partly because of the inexplicable failure of the car-bomb to explode, something which Afzal Guru continues to rue, and partly because of the bravery of the security guards there) and yet was confident that there would not be any massive retaliation from India. PA had committed two corps in the NWFP during this period. The initial reaction of the GHQ was that the Indian mobilization was small, something similar to Kargil in 1999. Substantial troops from the Eastern Command took PA by surprise, by all accounts. The British Ambassador in Islamabad, Sir Hilary Synnot, has reported Musharraf's misreading of the situation that India would not go to war. I consider this as coming out of Pakistani assessment that India would not escalate under any provocation. Again, after the January 12 speech by Musharraf, the PA assessed that the IA would no longer attack them as the window of opportunity has passed. The then US Ambassador to Pakistan Ms. Wendy Chamberlain reported that her meeting with the Pakistani CJCSC Gen. Aziz and a group of senior PA officers on May 25, eleven days after the horrendous Kaluchak massacre, indicated that only 50% PA officers thought that India would attack. She recalls that one Major General said, "Sometimes, you get so fed up with the Indians that you just want to say 'go to Hell, let's go for India'". Later, PA officers openly derided what they considered as ' India's failure of will to follow through with military action'. They felt that India was bluffing and Pakistan had successfully called its bluff.

As for the other, namely international intervention, not only Pakistan but also the US and the UK had laboured under the impression that India would not attack Pakistan when some high ranking American or British official was present in the Indian subcontinent. Definitely, this was how they operated during the twin successive standoffs of December 13, 2001 (Parliament) and May 14, 2002 (Kaluchak). The two countries made sure that some significant American or British presence was there until the situation was defused. Again, many more examples can be given for this assumption too.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

partha wrote:
What are Paki nuke weapons for? I will not be surprised if many in Pakistan are actually hoping US would attack them so they can exploit the situation by attacking India.
Let me stick my neck out and state a thought. Many Pakis are looking for a "way out" where they lose but do not lose to India. Losing to the US would be "honorable". They have painted themselves into a corner over the decades. their existence and self image depends on putting on a bold face with India. And this is going on at a time when they cannot actually hope to win against India if they start war.

If we go back to some piskological characteristics that I mentioned in my ebook - adapted from Raphael Patai's excellent analysis of the Arab Mind you find that when "honor" is very important, loss of face is worse than defeat. Military defeat can be explained away but not loss of honor. In fact that is exactly how Pakis have treated military defeats. They have glossed over them and have retained honor by some convoluted means. But the fact is that Pakistan has actually suffered after every military defeat and military misadventure that the "final victory against india" is out of erach. That was OK as long as honor was possible - but even honor is now going because of Pakistan's relative economic decline and the recent US volte-face regarding Pakis.

Honor can technically be saved in a suicidal war, but like like Liza's father Doolittle of "My Fair Lady" - "with a little bit of luck" honor can be saved and Pakistan can survive by a defeat that everyone will understand as inevitable. - against the US. It is possible for Pakistani to say that they cannot face the US and they can say that they are talking to the inferior Indians with honor only because they stood up to the US and survived. They will support Cashmere forever but will talk with honor to Indians who have not defeated Pakistan.

The only problem in this scenario is that Pakistan may already be out of control.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

Raja Ram wrote:
Essentially it revolves around the theme "Limits of Power - Balancing on the Power Edge". Simply put, the benefactors of Pakistan, India and the power centres inside Pakistan have certain limits to the power that they all wield and based on those limits they need to do a tight rope walk to achieve their major objectives.

What precisely are the contours of the limits? What are the options available? What kind of objectives can be achieved? These are the questions, my little brain is presently engaged in exploring these questions. I shall share the findings of this quest through a ramble soon.
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent and very astute of course
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

:rotfl: Shows how useless that "high table" has become. Chins is doing this oout of spite for India. I will eat shit but will not eat Indian food sort of thing going on here.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by Dilbu »

Think 10 times before moving into Pakistan: Army chief warns US
Kayani said he had told the Americans that Pakistan would go for military action in the region if the situation demanded but not under any pressure.

"If somebody convinces me that military action in North Waziristan will resolve all problems, I am ready to go for it tomorrow," he said.

Kayani also rejected the growing perception that Pakistan wanted to control Afghanistan and said it was evident from history that nobody had ever succeeded in doing so.

"When the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union failed to do so, how can it be expected of Pakistan? We do not have a magic wand to succeed in doing what others failed," he added.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

SSridhar wrote:
From initial accounts by various American personnel on the ground in Islamabad/Rawalpindi in connection with the on-going Operation Enduring Freedom, the PA believed that Indian mobilization was not something to be concerned about. The full enormity of Op Parakram dawned on them only when they realized that IA units from the east were moving in too. Now, look at the nonchalance of the PA. It planned the worst attack on the symbol of Indian sovereignty and democracy in a decapitation attack (which failed partly because of the inexplicable failure of the car-bomb to explode, something which Afzal Guru continues to rue, and partly because of the bravery of the security guards there) and yet was confident that there would not be any massive retaliation from India. PA had committed two corps in the NWFP during this period. The initial reaction of the GHQ was that the Indian mobilization was small, something similar to Kargil in 1999. Substantial troops from the Eastern Command took PA by surprise, by all accounts. The British Ambassador in Islamabad, Sir Hilary Synnot, has reported Musharraf's misreading of the situation that India would not go to war. I consider this as coming out of Pakistani assessment that India would not escalate under any provocation. Again, after the January 12 speech by Musharraf, the PA assessed that the IA would no longer attack them as the window of opportunity has passed. The then US Ambassador to Pakistan Ms. Wendy Chamberlain reported that her meeting with the Pakistani CJCSC Gen. Aziz and a group of senior PA officers on May 25, eleven days after the horrendous Kaluchak massacre, indicated that only 50% PA officers thought that India would attack. She recalls that one Major General said, "Sometimes, you get so fed up with the Indians that you just want to say 'go to Hell, let's go for India'". Later, PA officers openly derided what they considered as ' India's failure of will to follow through with military action'. They felt that India was bluffing and Pakistan had successfully called its bluff.

As for the other, namely international intervention, not only Pakistan but also the US and the UK had laboured under the impression that India would not attack Pakistan when some high ranking American or British official was present in the Indian subcontinent. Definitely, this was how they operated during the twin successive standoffs of December 13, 2001 (Parliament) and May 14, 2002 (Kaluchak). The two countries made sure that some significant American or British presence was there until the situation was defused. Again, many more examples can be given for this assumption too.
I think there are some harsh military realities that often get forgotten when this topic is discussed. First, Pakistan has a formidabie military capability and Indian military capability against Pakistan has to take into account Chinese intervention, so India is not "that powerful" against Pakistan. The Pakis know that well.

However if push comes to shove Pakistan will be "technically defeated". but if any Indian military person is a little older than I am - like the seniormost Indian Armed forces officers they would have seen both 1965 and 1971 first hand. And they will know that while Pakistan was "technically defeated" in those wars it survived and became stronger. If our military is not stupid, (and I believe our military is not stupid) the only solution is to fight war with Pakistan in such a way that Pakistan as we know it will cease to exist. The Pakis know this very well and are prepared to stop that. In real terms a really hot war between India and Pakistan cannot last even a month. Pakistan does not have the capability to fight such a hot war for more than 15 days, and India perhaps a little more than a month (I am talking about high intensity 1965/1971 type wars, not Kargil)

India will have to surprise Pakistan and overrun Pakjab and split Pakistan in a matter of one week. That is why Indians come up with things like "Cold Start" whether the idea is workable or not. The one thing that does not get discussed on here very often is what role the US can play. Simply put, the US can warn Pakistan of impending attack and monitor Indian activity and tell them about that during a hot war. There is no way we could prevent that. We can argue on the forum and say that "We should be strong enough to beat Pakistan despite that" but "beating Pakistan" would mean concluding a Pakistan breaking war in ten days flat. If it goes on longer Pakistan will be able to muster enough forces to stop India. US intelligence and arms can help to prolong the war just enough to help Pakistan survive. If India are planning military action against Pakistan we have to dhoti shiver about these uncertainties before we fight the war rather than find out that it happened after an unsuccessful war. We owe it to our military to be aware of this sort of outcome. I bet my left testimonial that the day India acquires the capability of doing this to Pakistan despite US or Chinese help, Pakis will start talking seriously about peace with India. We are not there yet.

So if the Pakis gloat and say that India did not fight, they are justified in a sense. They have played their cards well and India just does not have the cards we need. This is not about Indian weakness. It is about Pakistani strengths. That is why I am amused by people who get very upset at anything that suggests that the US is weak wrt to Pakistan. It's not about US weakness. it is Pakistan's strengths relative to what the US can do. Pakistan does have some strengths, and as Raja Ram said its all about the limits of national strengths of every involved country.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by shiv »

Part of Pakistan's humiliation and the need for the Paki military to take revenge against India was that in 1971 too Pakistan had a formidable military capability on paper. It was among the most well equipped and best trained forces in the world - with the main difference being that nations like Britain and Vietnam in those days had much bigger militaries than now.

India ripped open Pakistan chaddi at that time in a huge humiliation. Young Paki military officers who were perhaps 20 years old in 1971 are in their early 60s today. They may have just retired but retain an advisory role and their humiliation and anger have not gone. The "face saving" was done by claiming that Muslim Bengalis broke away and that the Indian military action was minor.

No matter how far we push the idea of "tactical brilliance/strategic stupidity" of the Paki military, the fact is that they, at the expense of getting their population to eat grass, remain illiterate and reintroduce polio, lose control of parts of Pakistan, have managed to retain a respectable military capability against India.

Any time you read military history you find that military victories are based on individual battle victories. Individual battle victories are often based on sheer luck, or failed plans of your adversary. Unless you have a 4:1 or 5:1 (or better) military superiority and can laughingly afford to take losses or carry on fighting a high grade war till the other party has no resources left, victory in war is never "assured" or "pre-ordained". That is why war is rightly left to being a last resort except by nincompoops or the supremely powerful. If Pakistan attacks India, India will win, but Pakistan will survive. India will not attack, but in any event, whoever starts a war, India's military goal would be to ensure that no Pakistan will be left after the war. Pakis know this well and have chosen to say that the is "Indian opposition to Islam and Muslims" as a crutch. And they have taken everyone's support to maintain a semblance of parity. And they have done well on the military preparation front.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by ramana »

Parsuram, The Baloch affair was in mid-70s while India was going thru Emergency. ZAB used PA Fizzleya etc and killed a lot of Balochis. Us was off ocurse silent about the use of Air Farce against rebels unlike in Saddam's usage in Basra later on.

SS, I thinkt he moist Delhi weather made the Afzal Guru bum a non-performer. Thats why we see a different chemical being used in the IM bums.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 22, 20

Post by RamaY »

Dilbu wrote:
India is dreaming to walk into the shoes of an economic and technological giant and a regional power that aspires to countenance China. Pakistan looks a midget in comparison to neighboring India now leaping forward at a terrific speed in technology, with its stable democratic tradition and with ballooning economic boom.Pakistan is trapped in huge debts and earns unenviable reputation as a failed state. The leadership that we have is not worth a stack of chaff. A country ablaze with leaping fires of violence, with shameful and futile proxy wars being fought by its armed forces on its own territory, with the contagious curse of sectarian, ethnic and regional bad blood spilled all over; the hope for a better future is dimming fast. Is there is way-out for revival of Pakistan?
The problem for Pakistan is this.

1. Pakistan IS NOT India
Then Pakistan is on the right path with all its violence, backwardness, djinn superstition, sharia laws, talibannis, jeehad, soo-sai vests etc. In fact for every 1% of GDP growth India achieves, Pakistan must reduce its GDP by 1% so they distance themselves from India further and further. Every time India builds a Hospital/School, Pakistan should destroy one in their lands and so on.

This will ensure that India can never fill the gap and usurp their lands, people and culture.

2. Pakistan SHOULD MATCH India
Assuming that people in both these nations have common civilization, traditions, food habits, climate etc, Pakistan can definitely match India in social/economic development.

The only thing that is standing between Pakistan and India is ISLAM. So they must destroy Islam in order to become another India.

It is their choice.
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