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ramana wrote:We hear about how efficient CBI is in blacklisting all these firms for bribery but we never see the CBI prosecuting those who were bribed?
Name one official who got jailed for the Denel case?
Ramanaji, IMHO, most of these allegations of corruptions are media plants by vested interests - either the competitors or cheeni biladhels (who are the only ones who actually benefit from this circus). Since the Bofors scandal, every MoD babu gets his chaddis in a twist the moment "artillery" and "corruption" are mentioned together and one of two things happen - either the CBI blacklists the manufacturer, or the tender is cancelled on account of not enough non-blacklisted manufacturers being left . At the end of it until the MoD feels that procuring artillery for the army is more important than covering their own musharrafs, this circus will continue.
nachiket, Most likely some political leader got the money. So to show they took action they blacklist the firm and keep quiet about who got the money.
And DDM is quite happy that some action was taken and if it keeps the military under-powered so much the better per JNU teachings.
Its not just some babus twisitng. Its a coverup.
ramana wrote:We hear about how efficient CBI is in blacklisting all these firms for bribery but we never see the CBI prosecuting those who were bribed?
Name one official who got jailed for the Denel case?
These Chor Bachao Idiots are known more for letting crooks get away -wether the infamous Mr Q or the Purullia arms droppers. In this particular instance if media is to be believed, they out did themselves by sending a handwritten note to def min without any seals or signatures expressing their concerns and doubts on lion city company. Nothing ever said about any proof. Looks like the new game is that folks are expected to give "munh dikhayee" like in a north Indian wedding to hmv even to compete in arms games - and those who don't are pushed out by these cop turned goons.
Simple question is who would the St. Allow this for ?
ramana wrote:nachiket, Most likely some political leader got the money. So to show they took action they blacklist the firm and keep quiet about who got the money.
And DDM is quite happy that some action was taken and if it keeps the military under-powered so much the better per JNU teachings.
Its not just some babus twisitng. Its a coverup.
I have posted many times ..regarding starting a "Hall of Shame".. put the names on the paper and let the world see. Till such time it is not done..nothing will ever be acheived... heck put the CBI Officials if they are out to cheat us of basic national defence..
Not sure why BRF cannot start this.. is it not after all in India.."guilty until proven innocent:...let these so called corrupt names be posted on a wall of shame and let them have the burden to prove otherwise..
Off course I wait for the IBTL response... as has been in the past to my suggestion on this "Wall of Shame"..
NEW DELHI - India is pressing Russia about Smerch multibarrel rocket launchers (MRBLs) that Indian Army officials say have problems with their firing system. The Army is also having difficulties obtaining spare parts for the Russian-built weapons.
An Indian delegation raised the matters last month at a joint meeting in Moscow, Defence Ministry sources said. The outcome of the meeting was not known.
A Russian diplomat here said the firing system problems occur only in isolated cases, and noted that the Army had tested the weapons before bringing them into service.
The Indian Army needs more Smerches, despite the technical problem, an Army official said.
India bought the Smerch in 2005 and 2006. New Delhi asked for technology transfer, but Russia refused.
The Army relies heavily on the Smerch MRBLs, which can fire 12 rockets at once and hit targets out to 70 kilometers, along with the Russian-origin Grad 122mm rocket systems and indigenous Pinaka MRBL.
Its range can be extended to 90 kilometers, the Army official said. It can also launch surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, he added.
Dang, every time I would read about the delays in the new gun acquisitions I would reassure myself and say, though they are not of the same category and are for a different purpose in the artillery weapons, at least we have the Smerchs which can wipe out entire formations. The spare parts issue and problems somehow bring doubts about their serviceability.
> and noted that the Army had tested the weapons before bringing them into service.
> India bought the Smerch in 2005 and 2006. New Delhi asked for technology transfer, but Russia refused.
OBVIOUSLY the tests were merely confirmatory trials and NOWHERE near as rigorous as domestic system like Pinaka or Nag or Arjun has to pass before being given even token orders.
thats the problem with going gung ho on imported maal.
I feel we are better of taking the help of domestic technology and JVs like MBT-BAE or KMW and extend the Pinaka into a Pinaka2 sharing common back end infra...such that mixed Pinaka formations will cover everything from 10km to 70km. components will be local, and spares will not be an issue. Capex might be a bit higher than Smerch off the shelf but opex and reliability will be much more predictable. the IA MUST FUND and DEPUTE SOME OF ITS BEST RECENTLY RETIRED PEOPLE TO such projects instead of merely expressing statements of intent and looking at brochures!
Plus jobs will be created in India and money will be Rupees and will be spent in India. Further no country dependant on imports for critical systems like us can really be free and enjoy stratigic freedom.
Singha, AFAIK, the report does not refer to end-user trials but the joint inspection which happens when the product is delivered. This seems more like QC issue - while the original system tested would have passed the muster, the subsequent follow-on orders might not live upto same standards.
The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has put on hold the Army's Rs 4,726 crore tender for buying 180 wheeled howitzers. The move is another setback to the Indian Army's Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, a Rs 22,000-crore project to buy 2,700 artillery guns. The tender to buy wheeled guns-howitzers mounted on six- or eight-wheeled armoured vehicles-was put on hold after allegations of deviations in the gun trials carried out in 2010. The army submitted its trial report to mod in August this year but the ministry has put the procurement on hold, reportedly on an anonymous complaint. The widely- circulated complaint alleged a cover-up in the defects of one of the competitors, Konstrukta of Slovakia.
Signed by "a group of concerned officials", the letter alleged that the army covered up the fact that the Konstrukta gun barrel exploded during user-trials at the Pokhran firing range in July 2010. Confirming the incident, a senior army official privy to the trials said that the barrel was replaced by the Slovakian company. The Directorate General of Quality Assurance (dgqa) a department of mod that certifies the reliability of military equipment, submitted a report to the army headquarters four months after the incident. "The dgqa report pin-pointed faulty ammunition made by the Ordnance Factory Board as the cause. One of the rounds exploded, shearing off the barrel. The manufacturer replaced the barrel and successfully completed the trials. We found no reason to hold up the procurement," the official added. He attributed the letter to "infighting within dgqa".
The letter, however, alleges that dgqa kept delaying the trial report deliberately till Konstrukta, in connivance with vested interests, sent the barrel back to Slovakia so that its metallurgy could not be checked. The complaint attached a copy of an internal test report from a dgqa lab which certifies that the so-called defective ammunition was not at fault.
"Given the current political climate, mod is extremely wary of taking a decision. But they should at least formally scrap the contract and immediately reissue it so that we don't miss crucial summer and winter trial windows next year," says an army officer. "Despite exhaustive guidelines in the procurement procedure, repeated retraction of major procurement cases on account of infirmities in their technical evaluation is a cause for serious concern," says Major General Mrinal Suman (retired). "Yet, no corrective measures have been taken to prevent their recurrence. Worse, no official has ever been held accountable for perverting the process," he adds.
The army has been unable to buy a single artillery gun after the Bofors scam in 1987. It hopes to buy five types of howitzers for its formations. However, successive contracts to buy howitzers have hit roadblocks or have been rebooted. Two howitzer vendors, Denel of South Africa and ST Kinetics have been blacklisted, while mod is still wary of dealing with Bofors, now cleared of bribery charges and owned by the UK's BAE Systems. mod recently placed a plan to directly import 146 ultra-light howitzers from the US after a court case was filed by ST Kinetics.
^^^ If it wasnt so sad and having such severe impact on Army's firepower, one could be forgiven for enjoying a bit of delicious schadenfraude over this considering the way the Arjun was treated..
So the OFB made defective ammo and the barrel burst. The vendor resupplied the barrel and trials were successful. Then comes a report ammo was good but barrel not available for quality testing!
So some tipsters decide to blow the whistle. And MOD decides to not buy any weapons again.
I think MOD is Ministry of Disarmament and not Ministry of Defence!
The question is why no action is taken. If the complaint is true or not there is a serious problem. MOD should have immediately investegate the matter and asertain if there is anu truth in the allegations anf if there is then arrest people involved. If the allegations are proved to be false then investegate who gave this false complaint and arrest them for trason and under offcial ser act. We are simply scrapping one process after another based on half baked dramas just because of Bofors allegations.
Alternative is to proceed with the production based on bofors specifics we already have and close the matter. IA do not have much to complain on Bofors guns. Even a old version of bofors is better than having nothing. At least money will be in our country with local production.
The Army's Howitzer saga is interesting. If we drop the Indian side's issues for a minute (infighting in DGQA, worries about corruption, ghost of Bofors etc) what are we left with?
Are we left with Howitzers of first class quality that exactly meet the army requirements for transport and usage in hot and high conditions made by extremely honest and sincere vendors who would not dream of searching for a palm to be greased if their life depended on it.
It seems to me that our requirements are fairly stringent. And those stringent requirements are being sought to be met by several companies who are accustomed to dubious practices like bribery and kickbacks to cover up deficiencies or shortcomings in delivery or offset schedules as well as using their contacts to smear reputations of anyone who deals with a competitor. A comparison with MMRCA may not be valid and we may not be able to say "If MRCA can be done why not this? " There is not enough information for that.
I am certain no selection process can go on this long unless there are hurdles in every direction. Not just inside India among Indians.
The problem is just that the Indian MOD can't decide get up from it fat lazy musharraf and decide to make a 155 MM gun. Nothing more. Why else the procurement hase been reduced to a sorry spectacle where India has banned every major gun maker.
The onlee ones that have not been banned are the PRC and the Koreans.
With war looming at the borders this is what the babu's at MOD doing for the country. I don't care even if it is a scam, as long as the army gets the guns.
The artillery acquisitions are not being screwed up to favour one manufacturer or another. The real purpose is to keep IA from acquiring any arty AT ALL. It harms the threat perception of the pakis, and makes them jittery.
If you remember, we were on the verge of buying the famed SP G6 from Denel when the story of irregularities was broken (in an unrelated deal for Anti materiel rifles) by a BRITISH newspaper. It tells you which interest is behind India not being able to buy artillery. Artillery is essentially an offensive weapon on its own, and a force multiplier when used in conjunction with armor. Both of these are harmful to pakistan, the ******** child of britishers.
abhischekcc wrote:The artillery acquisitions are not being screwed up to favour one manufacturer or another. The real purpose is to keep IA from acquiring any arty AT ALL. It harms the threat perception of the pakis, and makes them jittery.
Will wrote:Why cant they forget the whole rigmarole and go the govt-govt route? Whats the hurdle there?
^^ Errr...thats what was tried for the ULH M-777s with the US FMS route and is currently in trishanku.
Somehow, we managed to get even that stalled since the other firm put a case on the govt-govt deal!!!!!
Yea but there was a competitor there. The looser is bound to put a spoke in the wheel. Let the army make an internal assesment and convey their decision to the govt who can then go the govt-govt route. Ofcourse some folks will make some money but then again people are probably making a lot of money through the current process to.
abhischekcc wrote:The artillery acquisitions are not being screwed up to favour one manufacturer or another. The real purpose is to keep IA from acquiring any arty AT ALL. It harms the threat perception of the pakis, and makes them jittery.
If you remember, we were on the verge of buying the famed SP G6 from Denel when the story of irregularities was broken (in an unrelated deal for Anti materiel rifles) by a BRITISH newspaper. It tells you which interest is behind India not being able to buy artillery. Artillery is essentially an offensive weapon on its own, and a force multiplier when used in conjunction with armor. Both of these are harmful to pakistan, the ******** child of britishers.
This does not prevent the GOI, Army and DRDO to make an indigenous effort
this article suggests that the turret of 155mm guns might presently be beyond the metallurgical capacity of the Ordinance factory board
Faced with a serious shortage of artillery guns for the Indian Army, the Ministry of Defence okayed a proposal of the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) to produce the 155mm Bofors guns here, but now, it faces a serious problem - the metallurgy of the gun, especially its turret though which the ammunition is fired, is a mystery.
While the OFB was given the task by the Defence Ministry a few weeks ago to produce a prototype of the Bofors gun, the real crisis is the turret, said sources.
Within the ministry’s establishment, everybody is banking on the assumption that the OFB can produce the gun from the original designs and drawings that it got from AB Bofors Sweden, however, sources in the know of matters said that it might not be easy.
The original company did not actually carry out the transfer of technology for which India had paid. There had been no production in India ever of even a single part of the gun.
All these years, the OFB has been sitting on the drawings and designs that they got from Bofors without attempting to make even a small part of it.
The gun was supplied in the late 1980s and allegations of kickbacks had rocked the nation. All of a sudden, Bofors became a dirty word in the Indian defence establishment. The gun proved its worth during the Kargil conflict in 1999 when artillery gunners softened up the Pakistani defenders who occupied the ridge line.
The ministry okayed the OFB plans as various attempts - six in the past two decades - to procure an artillery gun had come to a nought. The Army faces a serious shortage and in the absence of spares, guns are cannibalised to arrange for parts.
It is not that the OFB has been asked to re-invent the same gun. It is just an attempt to re-produce it as the per the original design for which the OFB has been asked to come up with the prototype before the end of the next fiscal (March 2013).
The OFB makes artillery guns of lower calibre than the 155 mm. It is still not clear from where the specialised technology for the gun turret will be made available. One line of thought within strategic circles is that the OFB could ask the current owner of the Bofors gun licence - the BaE Systems - for some help. The BaE has a tie-up with the Indian defence arm of Mahindra and Mahindra for producing defence equipment and has a plant at Faridabad.
Actually, the two even showcased the Bofors at a defence exhibition at New Delhi in February 2010.
Once the OFB prototype is ready, the Army will put the guns through field trials before any mass production is done. Meanwhile, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has embarked on its own project to have an indigenous artillery gun.
as I had predicted, shaking the tin cup infront of the M&M-BAE office is the only soln. atleast we will get parts made under warranty and to OEM specs and QC, rather than a chini style 'best effort/clone' kit which will do fine for the first 102 rounds before neatly blowing up on the 103rd.
IMO if DRDO gets its act together the gun should be ready in 1-2 years. I cant fathom the difficulty in making a gun when the DRDO has produced the 120mm rifled gun for the Arjun. Better they can co-opt OFB and can take responsibility for the gun and the networking. Let the APU, loading and firing be derived from the original design and the barrel be an Indian make. That way whenever the gun is ready its caliber can also be raised from 39->52. In any case, the DRDO gun has been in works for the past one year so if it comes out with a new gun in the next one year it shouldnt be a surprise. Hope they dont get into the web of trying to produce the best and take years to come up with something that is a little worse than the current state of the art and losing the race. Come on DRDO you can do it!!
suryag wrote:IMO if DRDO gets its act together the gun should be ready in 1-2 years. I cant fathom the difficulty in making a gun when the DRDO has produced the 120mm rifled gun for the Arjun. Better they can co-opt OFB and can take responsibility for the gun and the networking. Let the APU, loading and firing be derived from the original design and the barrel be an Indian make. That way whenever the gun is ready its caliber can also be raised from 39->52. In any case, the DRDO gun has been in works for the past one year so if it comes out with a new gun in the next one year it shouldnt be a surprise. Hope they dont get into the web of trying to produce the best and take years to come up with something that is a little worse than the current state of the art and losing the race. Come on DRDO you can do it!!
The way the Bharat forge VP showed the amount of learning they have to do( esp in 5-6 key areas he listed) for the 155mm gun in his talk which i had attended, it seemed that we were still some way off from having a ready product.
From what i could gather from his PPT, pre-fabrication design phase was still on for the howitzer ( atleast at Bharat Forge)
The part about us having paid for the ToT and blue prints for Bofors in full is not new; we have discussed it here long time back. From a layman's pov what concerns me is how is that IN and IAF are able to get their big ticket items cleared by the same MoD while IA is struggling with ARTY ? Like Bofors the name of Gandhi family was also pulled into HDW deal but that did not prevent IN from atleast getting the Scorpene deal going, question is GoI's indifference aside does IA need to revisit some of it's evaluation/procurement procedures too ? I mean even if one accounts for the INC angle it leaves another question unanswered as to why the deal was not closed during the NDA regime ?
^^ Atleast the Towed/SP part was closed with Bhim/Denel but the first ting UPA-I did in 2004 was to scrap it on a complaint from madam.Renuka Chaudary about corruption.Another year of the NDA and atleast the Bhim would have been alive and would have been too late to scrap.
Anyways, all that is hypothetical and the final deal is that IA will be howitzer deficient( in the 155 mm range) within few years unless a home-grown system shows up.
The news about metallurgy being stumbling block is not very surprising, if I may say so. This was always identified to be the weak link in our efforts to produce arty guns locally. No manufacturer is going to give away the sauce for this holy grail. Not to say that we can't crack the problem. Bharat Forge and others who are attempting this may well come up with something.
People hyperventilating about this need to take a deep breath and relax. We are capable of making barrels - Arjun's main gun as someone pointed out. But then these tank barrels shoot projectiles upto 4-5kms max. They are 120mm bore and are effective for about 500-600 shots. Compare this with an arty gun - 155mm bore, 20km min range, effective for upto 1500 shots - and you can see the difference in stresses and wear & tear the guns undergo during their operations. The metallurgy is the key that will solve this conundrum.
A glaring example about the importance of metallurgy is the DRDO mortar developed for mountain use around 2007. It had a range of 10km but IA went for an Israeli one with 9km range. DRDO hyperventilated about the lack of support from IA till it was pointed out that their system was twice the weight of the Israeli system.
Metallurgy was a problem then and it still is now. The learning curve is steep and long winding and there will be no one holding hands on this road. We have to traverse it all alone.
A question. We have the original bofors and would definitely have disabled/cannibalized ones - is it not possible to study the % composition and microscopic structure and try to deduce the manufacturing process?
Why are our research institutes sitting on their *** till they get a requirement from the services? With an more active foreign policy (look east or Africa) should'nt we have more export-oriented research? At the very minimum it would have given us a heavy/dangerous/underperforming alternate [howitzer].
Even if the army has no idea of inducting it, it could have gone with more confidence to the bargaining table.
We can analyze the gun barrels to death and know the % composition to the sixth decimal place. But it will not do any good. What you will know is the 'destination' but hardly any idea of how to get there. It is the path of reaching this 'destination' which will never be shared by anyone nor can it be deduced by just analyzing the end products. There is a whole host of processes during manufacturing that will impact the behaviour and performance of the final product. How do you fix these production process parameters to get the desired outcome other than manufacturing test pieces by the hundreds and using them to generate performance data.
An interesting anecdote about the 105 IFG. When it was initially manufactured the barrels weren't upto the mark for most cases and IA virtually wrote it off. An audit team went into the details and found out the culprit. There were frequent power cuts in the factory which affected the barrels undergoing autofrettage during that time. These ended up to be substandard. The power situation was rectified and the problem disappeared! Just goes to show that many times, it is not just metallurgy but the host of process that need to be understood thoroughly to get the desired outcome.
You will be very surprised to known what kind of care and technique goes into making the coke-cola bottles. The kind of care they take in every stage , esp when they are molded into bottles to make each bottle look the same...even how much air needs to be blown while they are molded is kept standard and controlled
. At the end of it until the MoD feels that procuring artillery for the army is more important than covering their own musharrafs, this circus will continue.
