Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Nov 2011 23:57

I am bored (no fireworks in any threads). A story for time pass...

Source: Mahabharata - Adi Parva - Background of Vidura's birth

Once upon a time there was a Brahmin called Maandavya. He is a brave, dharmic and always interested in penance.

Everyday he used to stand at the base of the tree in front of his house and stretch his palms up and do penance quietly. He did penance for a long time in this manner.

One day a group of thieves came that way along with their stolen stuff followed by soldiers. The thieves hid their money near his hermitage and hid in the bushes around that place.

The soldiers asked Maandavya for the whereabouts of the thieves. Mandavya stood there in silence. The the soldiers searched the premises of his hermitage and found the stolen goods along with the thieves. The soldiers took Maandavya along with the thieves to the king.

The king ordered gave the capital punishment to the thieves. Soldiers took Maandavya too along with the thieves and put him on a spear (The person is made to sit on a spear as part of this punishment. The spear goes into the person's body from his bottom to his head giving him a very painful death)

Mandavya did not die even after staying on the spear for a long time. He kept there in silence doing his pranayama. Many seers come there everyday in the form of birds and showed concern for Maandavya. They asked him "Brahman, what sin you have committed to face this trouble?"

Maandavya told them "Whom shall I blame? No one did adharma to me!".

After seeing Maandavya not die even after so many days the soldiers informed the King about this situation {The punishment is to put Maandavya to death, but he would die}. King was surprised to learn this. He consulted his ministers and decided to seek forgiveness from this great sage.

The king apologized to Maandavya saying "honorable sage! Kindly forgive me for the mistake I made out of ignorance or power. Please do not be angry with me. I pray you". Mandavya forgave the king. The king tried to pull the spear out of Maandavya's body. The tip of the spear wouldn't come out of the sages body, so they cut the spear to that point.

Sage Maandavya continued his life with the tip of the spear in his body. For that he was called "Anee Maandavya" (Anee = tip of the spear).

One day Maandavya reached Yama's abode and asked him for the secret behind his sin that caused all this.

Yama informed him that Maandavya put a thorn in a butterfly in his past, and that is why he is paying for his karma (your past karma - good or bad - will come back multifold).

AniMaandavya - Dharmaraja! I agree with you. But tell me at what age I committed that crime?

Yama - You have done that when you were a boy.

Maandavya - Dharmaraaja, per dharma sastras, the boy will not get attached to any sin until he turns 12 years. You gave me big punishment for something i have done before i turned 12. Since you did not perform your duty properly you will born to a sudra-woman and live a human life.

From that point on wards, Dharma Sastras made a correction; the sins start giving karmic results only after 14 years of age.

Thus Yama Dharmaraja came to human life as Vidura.

The interesting thing for me in this story is - Maandavya did not get upset with thieves or king or soldiers; because he didn't find anything Adharmic in their deeds. It was all a series of un-intended consequences. But once he noticed the root-cause of the issue, he didn't hesitate to curse Yama Dharmaraja himself. That is the power of Dharma.

A repeating theme is that devatas are shit scared of coming into Human lives. Because once entered into Human life, their karma is influenced by senses (ego, Manas, and senses). It can lead to un-intended karma and the un-ending cycle of birth and death.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 23 Nov 2011 00:22

RamaY,

Earth is at the center of the 14 levels of abodes in the world (8 from above). It is the place of where all souls can atone out of their own free will - in other words you can choose your method of atonement.

Below earth are the hells, where people are punished, they do not have the choice to atone.

Gods are afraid to fall to earth because for them -it is the same as hell. No pleasure, only suffering.

For the Gods, earth is what Arabia would be to a person living in Kullu manali or Kashmir (at least the non muslims)

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 23 Nov 2011 00:23

I did not know even Yamaraj has been cursed.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Nov 2011 00:34

As I see how various animals killed and consumed for food and entertainment I think hell is nothing but an animal life and some Humans acting as Yamadutas

All kinds of naraka-punishments are applied on animals - skinning alive, cutting limbs, frying, marinating alive and what not... very disturbing thought

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Nov 2011 01:16

RamaY wrote:As I see how various animals killed and consumed for food and entertainment I think hell is nothing but an animal life and some Humans acting as Yamadutas
All kinds of naraka-punishments are applied on animals - skinning alive, cutting limbs, frying, marinating alive and what not... very disturbing thought

They were/are all Paki , so take heart.
Jihadi, Paki, Ghazi ityaddi, Narkkund ke hai yeh Vaasi
Manushvesh chahe yeh hoi, Inke vadhe kucch paap na hoi!!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Nov 2011 01:19

Atri wrote:I will hunt for the verses from MBH and paste them here shortly (by end of next week).

about Ashwatthama, well he is the "Paki" character.

Atri Ji

Is he really? During the Sri Krishna Rayabara he sides with Krishna (and thus Pandava side), but he has to remain loyal to his master and patron Duryodhana, just like Bhisma and his father Drona. Once the batlle has been joined, his loyalties to the bitter end has to be with Kauravas.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 23 Nov 2011 01:24

what "bitter end"? when Duryodhana himself is dying, the idiot goes out to destroy the "poudha" of the Pandavas. when he goes out to kill the baby in the womb, Kauravas already lost for all intents and puposes, and yet he tries to create more destruction by trying to completely wipe out the last remnants of the Kuru clan......there is no method behind his madness. that is Pakistaniyat....

I wonder if this is where the "jaat ka poudha" expression developed?!

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 23 Nov 2011 02:08

devesh wrote:what "bitter end"? when Duryodhana himself is dying, the idiot goes out to destroy the "poudha" of the Pandavas. when he goes out to kill the baby in the womb, Kauravas already lost for all intents and puposes, and yet he tries to create more destruction by trying to completely wipe out the last remnants of the Kuru clan......there is no method behind his madness. that is Pakistaniyat....

I wonder if this is where the "jaat ka poudha" expression developed?!

Devesh garu, I see your point and understand now where you and Atri ji are coming from.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 23 Nov 2011 08:58

RamaY wrote:Since you did not perform your duty properly you will born to a sudra-woman and live a human life.

So even in those times, being born a sudra was considered a "curse".

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2011 10:45

ManishH wrote:
RamaY wrote:Since you did not perform your duty properly you will born to a sudra-woman and live a human life.
So even in those times, being born a sudra was considered a "curse".

Slight difference, between "born to a sudra-woman" and being "sudra", Veda Vyasa who got the Vedas written since memory of people in Kali Yuga is very poor compared to other Yugas, was born to a Fisherwoman out of Wedlock but is considered amoung the Highest of Brahmins.

But being born to good parents gives a person a head start in life as compared to being born to parents of not good character, as it is the parents who teach one values early in life which in most cases tend to leave a lasting impression. But that does not mean insurmountable barrier from rising up in life yourself but it creates unnecessary difficulties for you.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2011 10:51

abhischekcc wrote:RamaY,

Earth is at the center of the 14 levels of abodes in the world (8 from above). It is the place of where all souls can atone out of their own free will - in other words you can choose your method of atonement.

Below earth are the hells, where people are punished, they do not have the choice to atone.

Gods are afraid to fall to earth because for them -it is the same as hell. No pleasure, only suffering.

For the Gods, earth is what Arabia would be to a person living in Kullu manali or Kashmir (at least the non muslims)

I agree with your description of Material Universe, But you should change the word Gods with Devas or Demi Gods, as one can attain thier position and they are temporary posts. Human life is best time one reach the necessary state of mind to attain Moksha.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 23 Nov 2011 12:06

Aditya_V wrote: Slight difference, between "born to a sudra-woman" and being "sudra",

Quite right.

But being born to good parents gives a person a head start in life as compared to being born to parents of not good character,

OK, so in the curse, the sudra here not the caste, but a bad parent ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Nov 2011 12:09

ManishH wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Slight difference, between "born to a sudra-woman" and being "sudra",
Quite right.

But being born to good parents gives a person a head start in life as compared to being born to parents of not good character,
OK, so in the curse, the sudra here not the caste, but a bad parent ?

Yes.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Nov 2011 21:13

And recall the story of Dharmavyadhi in Mahabharata. He knew more Dharma than the sannyasi!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyadha_Gita

He says that a decision on what is true under difficult circumstances should be made by sticking to that course of action which leads to the highest good of beings.

I am guided by this prinicple at my work:

Giving full considerations to overall program technical, schedule, cost, risks and benefits, I recommend...........

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Nov 2011 23:31

ManishH wrote:
Aditya_V wrote: Slight difference, between "born to a sudra-woman" and being "sudra",
Quite right.

But being born to good parents gives a person a head start in life as compared to being born to parents of not good character,
OK, so in the curse, the sudra here not the caste, but a bad parent ?

Being born in to sudra-community, the soul enters into a world that is filled with more and more materialistic karma (now all varnas are materialistic); thus leading to longer cycles of karmic life.

A sudra son to sudra parents is same as a brahmin son to brahmin parents. Both parents would want the boy to enter their community role.

Please see beyond the upper/lower class hierarchy structure. Remove that thought from your mind, and you will start appreciating the reasoning behind these things. That is the deracination we must consciously attempt.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Nov 2011 23:51

I was reading Veda Vyasa Bharata. Here is a new info on Ekalavya episode.

Drona did not teach just Kauravas and Pandavas. He established a university in the lower foothills of Himalayas.

Thousands of kings, Princes and Kshatriayas came there to learn Dhanurveda (means entire Kshatra vidya - not just Archery).

All the students were taught the same course. Arjuna excelled in all the lessons by approaching the learning process intellectually, intelligently and devotionally and doing hardwork.

Ekalavya joined the school. Drona did not mind him joining the school but did not accept to teach him Astra vidya.

Ekalavya left the school and started learning archery on his own with Drona as his inspiration.

When Pandavas/Kauravas went to forest, Ekalavya hit 7 arrows into the mouth of the hunting dog, guided by its voice out of sight.

When Drona reached Ekalavya, the student fell on his feet.

Arjuna was jealous that there could be a greater archer in the world than him. He reminds Drona's promise "That he will make Arjuna the best archer in the world".

Drona asks for Gurudakshina. Ekalavya replies that it is upto Drona to ask.

Drona asks for Ekalavya's right thumb. Ekalavya obliges.

Then Drona taught Ekalavya how to use bow using his index and middle finger. But Ekalavya couldn't throw arrows as fast as he used to do.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Nov 2011 23:58

I heard that Ekalavya participated in the final war, on the Kaurava side. True?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Nov 2011 00:12

Yes Carl garu.

AFAIK (will confirm later), both Ekalavya and Karna joined Kaurava's side to get a chance to fight with Arjuna. All three of them wanted to be the "Best Archer in the World".

Karna lost many times - Against Drupada (when Kauravas try to get him to give Gurudakshina to Drona), Gandharvas (When they capture Kauravas during Aranyvasa), and with Arjuna during uttara-gow-grahana.

Pandu was made the king as Dhrutarashtra was blind. So his son, Yudhisthira would have been a king, if the Pandu did not leave to forests.

Apparantely Gandharvas (IMO the tribal kingdoms in Af-Turk areas) were very famous even in those days. Even Pandu (father of Pandavas) couldn't defeat them and Yavanas.

Until Pandu defeated all the kingdoms surrounding Hastina, Kuru kingdom was a small kingdom. Pandu left the kingdom and lived in foothills of Himalayas when he got cursed by the seer (got killed by Pandu when he was mating with deer in deer-disguise??).

After that Dhritarashtra enjoyed the entire kingdom and many people including him knew that he is enjoying someone else's hardwork.

When Duryodhana was born, the astrologers told Dhrutarashtra to kill his son to save rest of his 99 sons and rest of Kuru lineage.

Arjuna defeated all these Gandharvas and Yavanas(greeks? - Sauveera Nation. King names are Vipula, Datta Mitra, Sumitra) during the period when Yudhisthara was the prince (well before marriage with Draupadi).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Nov 2011 01:01

Pioneer

Garuda is neither eagle nor vulture

Garuda is neither eagle, nor vulture

Wednesday, 23 November 2011 22:18 Arvind Mishra | Mandar Nature Club, Bhagalpur Hits: 17

This has reference to the ongoing debate in your ‘Letters to the editor’ column regarding the kind of bird Garuda is.

There are several references made in papers presented by experts that conclusively prove that Garuda is the Greater Adjutant. Many of these references are to be found in the journal of the Bombay Natural History Society under the title, ‘Discovery of a breeding ground of the Greater Adjutant and their conversation in the floodplains of Bihar’. The mythological world remains with many controversies, differences in beliefs and opinions. Here is a link: http://indonesia.wikia.com/wiki/Garuda_Pancasila that says, in Indonesia, the Golden Eagle is known as Garuda. This has created confusion in the minds of a few people. The letter writer who said, “There are no storks found in India known as Greater Adjutant” should see the latest scientific journals and books. There are nine species and sub-species of Storks in the Indian Subcontinent.

Those interested in a greater understanding of the subject should also refer famous ornithologist Salim Ali’s book, Handbook of the Birds of India and Pakistan, 1968. Vol. 1, p. 105. Another reference can be had in Grimmett R, T Inskipp & S P Mehra (2004): Uttar Bharat Ke Pakshi (Christopher Helm, London).

I suppose the information should be sufficient to clarify the doubts in the minds of people on the kind of bird the Garuda is. But I must add that I found the debate most interesting, since that demonstrates the keenness people have in knowing about the origins of our precious wildlife species as well as the people’s interest in their cultural moorings that are rooted in our mythologies.

Factsheet for Greater Adjutant. Looks like it does kill snakes.

http://www.birdlife.org/datazone/specie ... hp?id=3842

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Nov 2011 05:23

Born in Himalayas Ganga split into 7 streams

Ganga
Yamuna
Saraswati
Rathastha
Sarayu
Gomati
Gandaki

The first three are said to be split/Merge in Alahabad, Triveni Sangamam

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Nov 2011 02:20

The interest point about Drona is -

On one hand his dharma to teach Dhanurveda only to Brahmin and Kshatriya sections of the society stopped him from accepting Ekalavya as his disciple, he voluntarily accepted Drushthadyumna as a disciple even after knowing that he was born to Drupada with the sole objective of defeating him.

Another interesting Gurudakshina he asks Arjuna (after defeating Drupada) is that Arjuna would never use Brahmasironamakastra against humans and he would fight Drona if they ever face each other in a battle.

Swa-Dharma is paramodharma and subtle in deed...

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Nov 2011 03:11

^^RamaY: I've generally heard the story that he was denied because Drona was the royal tutor to the princes of Hastinapur. Eklavya was a a King's son too (Tribal chief's son).

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Nov 2011 05:44

Viv ji,

Mahabharata is available in almost all languages. Please get hold of a copy of AdiParva to understand Drona's life, motives and actions. And judge him yourself. Not that I cannot answer you question but my response will never satisfy your quest unless you read the source yourself.

My answer is that Drona is a guru. He has a right to accept or reject a student. We are trained to see everything from Caste perspective, that too with a negative mindset. If we want Ekalavya has his right to select a teacher, we should give Drona the same right.

The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Nov 2011 08:49

RamaY: I have an abridged one from Dreamland publications for children. I just consulted that. It states that Drona consulted the princes and the princes said they did not want a low caste included with them. He had been appointed by Bheeshma to tutor the princes. So that is yet another twist

.

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 25 Nov 2011 12:38

RamaY wrote:The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?

It is true that Eklavya never blamed or questions Drona, but none of us here have the same devotion to Drona that Eklavya did. We are placed in a position to think outside the box a little. Drona had every right to deny Eklavya training - and he did. I think the point being made is that it was immoral to ask for his thumb though. Or maybe I am not getting your point.

niran · Post by **niran** » 25 Nov 2011 12:53

Keshav wrote: Or maybe I am not getting your point.

kinda like copyright violation, Eklavya stole the Art of Warfare
see the operating word is Warfare, it was not about A for apple B for big apple
it was about how to kill, which in modern terms is military training, which can only
be imparted to a worthy one, and one who steal is unworthy, no?

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 25 Nov 2011 13:08

RamaY wrote:My answer is that Drona is a guru. He has a right to accept or reject a student. We are trained to see everything from Caste perspective, that too with a negative mindset. If we want Ekalavya has his right to select a teacher, we should give Drona the same right.

The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?

I agree that the case is much more complex than just caste issues, but IMHO one should not try to deny the caste element either. Rather, I would like to understand what set Ekalavya apart from the other "princes", and what exactly was the Vedic rationale behind Drona's rejection of him.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Nov 2011 00:59

Carl wrote: I agree that the case is much more complex than just caste issues, but IMHO one should not try to deny the caste element either. Rather, I would like to understand what set Ekalavya apart from the other "princes", and what exactly was the Vedic rationale behind Drona's rejection of him.

Will get back to you with more details.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Nov 2011 01:44

In the foreword for 'Sabha Parva' (of Sri Kappagantula Lakshmana Sastry's Verbatim Translation of Veda Vyasa Maha Bharata) Sri Tirumala Ramachandra gave some interesting insights...

- Vedas are compiled over many periods, many regions, and many societies.

- They start from the period/place of six months day and six months night {polar regions?} to the days of Vedic Karmas.

- Per Scientific Dating of Mahabharata War of Dr. Padmakar Vishnu Vartak Rigveda is compiled between ~25,000BC to ~5000BC.

- The war of 10 races (kingdoms/societies/cities?) of Sudasa (son of Divo'dasa) mentioned in Rigveda - happened for over 5 decades - could be the Maha Bharata war that is compiled later / per Sri Vashista Ganapati Muni (Kavyakantha Ganapati Sastry - A sishya of Sri Ramana Maharshi)

- If we take the evolution process it is fair for Veda's to start with "Ushassuktam - praise of morning" than Agni rukkus. Probably Vyasa put praises of Agni at the beginning of Veda to denote the importance of Yajna's of his period.

- Per Dr. Padmakar Vishnuvartak Mahabharata war happened between 5562 BC October 16th to November 2nd.

- One of pyramids in Egypt has the translation of two Bhagavadgita slokas. These are related to rebirth.

Mamaivamso' jivaloke' jeevabhuta: sanatana:
Mana: shashtha nimdriyaani prakrutisthani karshati
sareeram yadavapnoti yachchaa pyutkramatiswara:
gruhitvaitani samyaati vaayurgamdhamivasayat

15th chapter 7 and 8th slokas

Page 21 of Dr. Padmakar's book mentioned above
(All the life forms in this universe are my aspects. Due to the material life they are attracting mind and senses and are going thru this friction. Like air absorbs various scents, this soul attracts various life-centric experiences and take them from one body (one life to another) to another. Thus he takes on body and leaves it before taking another body)

- Indian society knew about Pyramids. This word transformed into Pyramidos - midos - idak - Edook.

Aranya Parva 190.69 says thus

What is this craze! People are falling in their values. They are worshiping burial-buildings instead of Devatas (natural and spiritual forces)

Based on this, some people argue that Mahabharata was written after Buddhas (due to Samadhis). But in reality building of Sthupas started only after the establishment of Mahayana (few centuries after Buddha).

- Buddhists and Jains wrote their versions of Ramayana and Mahabharata so they can establish themselves in Bharatiya societies. We started to see this trend with Christain missionaries - I have a christian version of Purusha Sukta. The first person in this trend if Vimala Suri. He translated Ramayana with the name "Pa Vu Ma Cha Ri Vu". This lead to various versions of Ramayana in many countries.
{Ramanaji - could this be the reason for 300 Ramayanas?} To fight this phenomenon books like "Raghuvamsa" were written.

- Jains first translated Mahabharata in to Kannada as Vikramarka Viyaya, and Gada Yuddha.

- Versions of MB
V1.0 - 8000 slokas - Name JAYA
V2.0 - 25000 slokas - Name Samhita (written by Vaisampayana)
V3.0 - 100,000 slokas - Name Mahabharata

- The first translation of V1.0 MB is "Bharata Savitri". The timing of this is not clear. In the writer's opinion this was the first translation of MB to fight Jaina/Buddha efforts.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Nov 2011 14:24

Oxford University Press under pressure over Ramanujan essay row

The empire strikes back?

Oxford University Press is under growing pressure to explain its role in suppressing A.K. Ramanujan's essay, “Three Hundred Ramayanas,” as the renowned indologist Sheldon Pollock and a number of other leading academics on Saturday joined the mounting outrage over its decision to stop publishing and selling the essay in India following protests from a right-wing group.

In a strongly-worded joint letter to Nigel Portwood, Chief Executive, OUP, U.K., they conveyed their “shock and dismay” at OUP India's action which, they said, was compounded by its abject apology in court to a group which had claimed that the essay hurt Hindu sensitivities.

“In addition, OUP India has, it appears, subsequently withdrawn from the market Ramanujan's Collected Essays, in which 300 Ramayanas also appears, and has assured Delhi University that it will not keep the book in print, a pledge that enabled the university's Vice-Chancellor to overrule his own committee who had argued for retaining Ramanujan's essay on the syllabus of the History department,” the letter says, referring to the controversy over Delhi University's decision to drop the essay from its syllabus under pressure from Hindutva groups

Besides Prof. Pollock, Ransford Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at Columbia University, the letter is signed, among others, by American Indologists Wendy Doniger and David Shulman; and historians Muzaffar Alam and Dipesh Chakrabarty. Prof. Pollock said the signatories also included former colleagues or students of Ramanujan. Among them were authors who had published with OUP.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 28 Nov 2011 14:44

chetak wrote:Oxford University Press under pressure over Ramanujan essay row

The empire strikes back?

Oxford University Press is under growing pressure to explain its role in suppressing A.K. Ramanujan's essay, “Three Hundred Ramayanas,” as the renowned indologist Sheldon Pollock and a number of other leading academics on Saturday joined the mounting outrage over its decision to stop publishing and selling the essay in India following protests from a right-wing group.

In a strongly-worded joint letter to Nigel Portwood, Chief Executive, OUP, U.K., they conveyed their “shock and dismay” at OUP India's action which, they said, was compounded by its abject apology in court to a group which had claimed that the essay hurt Hindu sensitivities.

“In addition, OUP India has, it appears, subsequently withdrawn from the market Ramanujan's Collected Essays, in which 300 Ramayanas also appears, and has assured Delhi University that it will not keep the book in print, a pledge that enabled the university's Vice-Chancellor to overrule his own committee who had argued for retaining Ramanujan's essay on the syllabus of the History department,” the letter says, referring to the controversy over Delhi University's decision to drop the essay from its syllabus under pressure from Hindutva groups

Besides Prof. Pollock, Ransford Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at Columbia University, the letter is signed, among others, by American Indologists Wendy Doniger and David Shulman; and historians Muzaffar Alam and Dipesh Chakrabarty. Prof. Pollock said the signatories also included former colleagues or students of Ramanujan. Among them were authors who had published with OUP.

what's left of the empire that it will strike back

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Nov 2011 14:54

saptarishi wrote:{quote="chetak"}Oxford University Press under pressure over Ramanujan essay row

The empire strikes back?

Oxford University Press is under growing pressure to explain its role in suppressing A.K. Ramanujan's essay, “Three Hundred Ramayanas,” as the renowned indologist Sheldon Pollock and a number of other leading academics on Saturday joined the mounting outrage over its decision to stop publishing and selling the essay in India following protests from a right-wing group.

In a strongly-worded joint letter to Nigel Portwood, Chief Executive, OUP, U.K., they conveyed their “shock and dismay” at OUP India's action which, they said, was compounded by its abject apology in court to a group which had claimed that the essay hurt Hindu sensitivities.

“In addition, OUP India has, it appears, subsequently withdrawn from the market Ramanujan's Collected Essays, in which 300 Ramayanas also appears, and has assured Delhi University that it will not keep the book in print, a pledge that enabled the university's Vice-Chancellor to overrule his own committee who had argued for retaining Ramanujan's essay on the syllabus of the History department,” the letter says, referring to the controversy over Delhi University's decision to drop the essay from its syllabus under pressure from Hindutva groups

Besides Prof. Pollock, Ransford Professor of Sanskrit and Indian Studies at Columbia University, the letter is signed, among others, by American Indologists Wendy Doniger and David Shulman; and historians Muzaffar Alam and Dipesh Chakrabarty. Prof. Pollock said the signatories also included former colleagues or students of Ramanujan. Among them were authors who had published with OUP.
what's left of the empire that it will strike back

Sorry saar, should have included this (

) in my original post, since auntie wendy is involved.

Now edited and rectified.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 28 Nov 2011 16:06

So, the one time OUP decides to respect the sentiments of Hindus, it gets hauled over the coals. Wow, this academic freedim in the west is really anti-Hindu

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Nov 2011 21:17

One more reason why textbooks should be published by indians only and not foreign owned entities.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2011 23:17

One among several reasons why I am opposed to foreign universities setting foot in India:
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1052292
x-posting.

SwamyG wrote:^^^^
I am one of the folks who opposed the move to allow foreign universities into India, fully. Just wait till Indians start learning about India and Hinduism from folks like Wendy Doniger.

Along the lines of what the newly-established centre of UChicago in Beijing hopes to achieve, the proposed centre here will serve as a bridge to also be able to “pursue ideas for the sake of ideas”. Academics like Prof Chakrabarty feel that this pursuit, and a push for the study of languages and Humanities, is vital to allow democracies to flourish and grow.
Next we will have Witzel like folks teaching Sanksrit.

We are just fvked up onlee.

Foreigners should not control Indian Education. Period. It does not matter if they are NRIs, PoIs, India friendly or what not. Period.

ManishH · Post by **ManishH** » 29 Nov 2011 10:40

Perhaps your point is very valid for religion studies. But there are some languishing fields in humanities/social sciences that could really use help in India - eg. archaeology, linguistics. Unfortunately, both controversial and subject to ideological misuse.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2011 13:36

All are colonial subjects to create colonial narratives for India and Indian knowledge system

All of them are ideologically misused and meant to destroy India and its knowledge system

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Nov 2011 20:43

allowing foreign think thanks and academic institutions a foothold in India will be disastrous. it will create another stronghold for DIE studies and foreign imperialist bootlicking.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 29 Nov 2011 21:04

RamaY wrote:Viv ji,
Mahabharata is available in almost all languages. Please get hold of a copy of AdiParva to understand Drona's life, motives and actions. And judge him yourself. Not that I cannot answer you question but my response will never satisfy your quest unless you read the source yourself.
My answer is that Drona is a guru. He has a right to accept or reject a student. We are trained to see everything from Caste perspective, that too with a negative mindset. If we want Ekalavya has his right to select a teacher, we should give Drona the same right.
The interesting this is nowhere Ekalavya questions/blames Drona. Why should we?

I agree, The Guru has the first right to reject/accept a disciple.Disciple must be submissive,Guru can command and direct the disciple.It is the disciple who needs the knowledge,and the Guru who can give it, so the disciple is duty-bound to be submissive.Dronacharya was always respected as the Guru, by Pandavas and Kauravas equally.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 29 Nov 2011 21:25

ManishH: They languish because of lack of patronage. A decade ago, in TN and AP a spate of Engineering and Medical colleges sprang up - most of them funded by politicians. It was probably easier way of making money than being liquor barons. So why did that happen? Because of the job market. Fields like Archaeology or linguistics offer less number of jobs than these, hence dearth of support. Yet, we realize these fields are very important - rather highly important. At some level it has to receive State and Private patronage. Arts and culture - which are also means of knowledge - will die if they do not receive patronage.

What we need is a fresh perspective of our culture through our own eyes - using modern science and mathematics. Analysis of Mahabharata and Ramayana, with truth in mind, for consistencies and inconsistencies. Analysis of Manu Smrithi ityadi. Dating of our texts and knowledge base. Here is a curious example: Fuzzy and Neutrosophic Analysis of Periyar's Views on Untouchability. I am sure we right incentives we can have many scholars right books in the needed fields. We need to create a eco-system that encourages people to research and write; and a set of people will read. Our history has shown we have that people. Bhavan's Journal, MBD Books etc have been doing yeoman service.

So we need to kick it up a notch. We need vision, money and execution. Vision and Execution have to be under Indian control. Money can come from domestic or FDI. So let the foreign universities invest, we will assure them RoI (that is what they are after).

BTW, what sort of help do you think we need from foreign universities in the areas you list? Money? We have. Mathematicians? We have? Astronomers? We have. Historians? We have. Scientists? We have. Technologists? We have. IMO, we lack visionary leaders. When I say lack, I mean either there are glass ceilings that suffocate them, or they are like diamonds that we have to mine out. And then we need dedicate passionate people to execute. And I do not think Foreign Universities can help in these areas at all.

ps: Rajiv Malhotra and Aarvind managed to raise Rs1.5 lakhs for their tamil version of Breaking India in a matter of days.