India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 2

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Dec 2011 23:16

So my question is. Should their inability to sell; and the fact that they have been losing and I think more desparate now, not be used to our advantage to get the a/c IF we think it is the best?[/quote]

There is no clear indication as to who leads the race in technical parameters in the MRCA. Rafale has a chance to win, however a lot depends on the offer that has already been made. Raffy offer may slightly be the cheaper one, however there is no hint of which one is the better overall offer. Would IAF buy the Rafale if the overall offer from Dassault is better than the one from EADS well the answer is most certainly yes. I think IAF would be happy with either aircraft. Both have pros and cons. I also think IAF won't hesitate being the first customer for Raffy if it does come with the best offer. Offers were however made a while ago before news in UAE and Swiss. Did Dassault shoot itself yet again by making an inferior offer? Hard to say.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Dec 2011 23:20

Septimus P. wrote:Rahul sahab pardon my badmouthing of nationality, won't happen again! How about I bad mouth Dassault, would that be okay? Just an honest question.

You will get meteor-ed

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 01 Dec 2011 23:42

one matra [meaning medicine per south Indian language] is enough.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 01 Dec 2011 23:44

people, this bad mouthing stuff got a little too far and took this mmrca/ india selects raffy/typhi discussion a bit too far. what i feel is that this is india.here no matter what is wrong we will get the best jet. babus might get their share of kickbacks

, BUT IAF WILL GET THE BEST JET COZ IAF KNOWS WHAT'S BEST FOR IT. i might be wrong in some statements here because we have saint antony as our def min.he has a clean record so thing about kickbacks now may be false. mmrca stuff is for the iaf to decide, so let us keep our fingers crossed. let us not voice our opinions now cause that will count for nothing.within few weeks we will know who has won.then we can continue our analysis. no matter whoever wins there are two sure winners one is IAF and the other is EADS which has stake in both dassault and eurofighter gmbh.so kudos to these two fellas

ans so we should relax sing why this why this kolaveri kolaveri di and say aaallll iss well until the winner is announced.

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 02 Dec 2011 00:59

Tay, most BRFites have stopped reading/posting in this thread. (This thread has gone on for years, and most everything that could be said, has already been said.) That's why the quality of the discussion has been so poor over the past few pages. Usually, the quality is much higher. My personal favorite is the Rafale, and I think the odds are 2-1 that it'll be chosen. The quality of the discussion was good right after the MMRCA short-list was announced. If those pages are still in the archives, they might be worth a look.

If you're curious what the IAF might use the Rafale for, I'd recommend you read Vivek Ahuja's scenarios here on BRF ("Possible Indian Military Scenarios - XII," "Military Issues & History Forum."

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Dec 2011 03:06

As promised I posted a few of my personal pictures that I took when invited on Dassault's static display on mp.net as I don't know how to upload pictures here :

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost5899605

enjoy !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Dec 2011 03:15

Look,we've gone far beyond technical evaluations of the two birds in the contest.The time has arrived for bean counting and political mileage which will determine which bird wins.Both aircraft are almost equal in capability and cost,though the Swiss evaluation might have thrown up some interesting stats,given their especial needs.The French as I said before have the best opportunity of losing an opportunity,as they already have the frightfully expensive M-2000 upgrade in the hand and can surely make an attractive financial offer for the MMRCA.In fact,they were deliberately awarded the M-2000 uprgade "in advance" of the down select that KO'd the two Cold War rivals and their birds.What geo-political extras can one derive from the bankrupt Italians,the sweating Spanish-next in line for fiscal meltdown,under-performing UK,where recession's return has officially been announced,and a "Titanic" Germany...mein Gott! ...."Teutonic" Germany,rowing like mad to keep the EU boat afloat and the Euro from being worth zero? In comparison we have the French,also afearing a fiscal fiasco if more EU nations default,but able to offer us something that the Germans cannot...N-plants!

The comparison between the Swiss and IAF requirements is not an equal one.The two air forces widely differ in their threats,actual or academic,and their existing fleets and aircraft being replaced indicates that "sauce for the Swiss goose isn't the same sauce for the Indian gander"! As has been mentioned above,the Swiss are surrounded by friendly nations,not "hostiles" like the Dragon and Porkis as we are.The F-5 is a small lightweight fighter,very friendly on the pocket,which was much touted decades ago by the Yanquis to us (full production-lock, stock and barrel) while they seretly planned to sell the Pakis the F-16!

In the Swiss contest,the "gnomes" of the Alps,kept one eye very firmly on the price tag.It may indeed have been true that the twin-engined Rafale was the most superior aircraft of the lot,but at a price almost double-from other available sources in other contests,the modest requirements of the Swiss were better met by the Gripen at half the cost! This is where the Indian contest differs.As Mula put it,if all we needed was a replacement for the MIG-21,we could've "fast-tracked" the LCA,or bought either the Gripen or MIG-35 ,saving ourselves $5 billion in the process! The unexpected aggro from the PRC breathing fire across the Himalayas,in combination with the perfidious "auld enemy",has meant that we needed a more capable and modern single-seat fighter,truly multi-role,which could "swing both ways" (now don't get ideas guys!),with the stamina and the legs and the punch capable of delivering a KO to both pestilential entities.

The Swiss evaluation however is of inestimable interest to us as well,as if technical capability is the key priority,then the better performing bird should walk away with the prize.Perhaps the offer of more technology might glitter,but when you have two aircraft and the one that offers more "technology" is NOT the one that performs better,which one would you choose,costs being the same? One is sure that the IAF will atke more than a cursory look at the Swiss choice and the reasons for the same. The Gripen still is a dark horse if the two Eurobirds have priced themselves outrageously.The falling value of the rupee (I was shocked today to see how much the rupee has fallen even in comparison with the falling Euro (at least 10-15% in value-a virtual DEVALUATION gentlemen!),the pound is at 80+,Zero almost 70,Canadian and Oz dollars virtually the same (around 50+) as the "almighty one",which will make one's travel bills soar in future) will mean another huge financial burden on the MOD and this will reflect in all foreign acquisitions across the board for the other servcies' requirements as well,like artillery,warships and subs,missiles,helicopters,etc.,etc.The mood of the nation right now is ugly,given price hikes,inflation and the fear of FDI in retail,not to mention the as yet incomplete cases of the multitude of scams plaguing the govt.A very high price that comes with the winner,or even both finalists,might still see a possibility where the order is split into two,"heavy and light" costwise,with a smaller number to be acquired,hoping that the LCA MK-2 and extra Flankers will deliver more numbers in future,or we may still see the Gripen sneaking into the tent as well!

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Dec 2011 03:22

Gripen is an interesting option for countries that seek an asset providing basic multi-role fighter capabilities to defend their air space and territory, but who cannot or do not want to invest in a more complex or advanced aircraft. Hence, in addition to the domestic market, the company has signed export deals for the Gripen with South Africa, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Thailand, underlining its ability to address different markets and armed forces’ requirements.

An example for a quite opposite case is India. Along with US and Russian competitors, the Swedish company did not succeed in entering the final round of the multi-billion dollar MMRCA competition, while Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon were short-listed in May 2011.

However, governments that ‘knowingly decide not to play on the highest level’ when it comes to defence procurement are likely to dominate the markets during the upcoming years, considering the difficult budget situation of Western nations and the requirements of smaller but aspiring nations in emerging markets.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/923 ... a8783626de

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Dec 2011 03:26

^^^ Its like the guy from Mordabad hawkinging his kata and disparaging the Glock.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Dec 2011 03:43

"For that, no need of an evaluation of 8 millions francs"

Basler Zeitung, Nov 30

SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter is not happy about the decision for the Gripen. For him it is not clear why the Federal Council has decided for this fighter.

With the justification provided by Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer , SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter said he would not approve the purchase. This was the price, the cooperation and effectiveness of the aircraft mentioned as criteria. The last two items fulfill all types. “I assume the fact the principal reason for the decision is the price”, said Hurter. "There would have needed no evaluation for 8 million francs, "which one could look in the catalog."
In addition, the Gripen exist only on paper. That meant that Switzerland also participate in the development costs. "That's what we didn't want to avoid the future risk," said Hurter.
[...]
Also Hurter does not exclude the fact that no matter the Federal Council has decided for Gripen, the new jet could be shoot in the parliament. The government decides for an aircraft, which exists only on the paper. Besides it consider the results of the evaluation only insufficiently. “"You have to ask yourself how serious this is."

http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard/Da ... er_id=1071

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 02 Dec 2011 05:52

I honestly think that GOI should pull up BAE systems for their greed and put a $1B penalty on them if they want to sell the EF2000

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 945768.cms

The company has zero scruples

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 05:59

if Gripen are smart they could take a chunk of the market segment being targeted by the JF17 (ie basket cases) by offering a simple gripen-C model without the frills and offering to integrate choice of customer radar and weapons. should be anyway a far better a/c than the JF17 and they can tailor the avionics to the price band of customer starting from NG downward.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Dec 2011 08:45

"We are simply taking the best gear, the best technology on the market to date and giving to guys that are known to stab us in the back," Meyer was quoted saying in an email cited in a lawsuit he has filed against BAE Systems and his supervisors there.

Perfect khan behavior providing the same EoE to chinese setups.

manum · Post by **manum** » 02 Dec 2011 10:19

Singha wrote:if Gripen are smart they could take a chunk of the market segment being targeted by the JF17 (ie basket cases) by offering a simple gripen-C model without the frills and offering to integrate choice of customer radar and weapons. should be anyway a far better a/c than the JF17 and they can tailor the avionics to the price band of customer starting from NG downward.

Musharraf went to Sweden for Gripen also. but they refused to sell war machine to a nation like Pakistan...Its their policy to not to sell such equipments to probable rogue nations...where China finds its market.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Dec 2011 11:03

Viv S wrote:
Kartik wrote:The Rafale currently lacks a HMDS whereas the Typhoon doesn't. Is a Gerfaut HMDS being developed for the Rafale F3+? Would that have been taken into account?
I believe the Gerfaut was abandoned a while ago after running into technical roadblocks. There's no replacement HMS planned for the foreseeable future.

Thanks, I didn't know that..although I suppose that a HMDS has definitely been offered to the IAF - most likely the Thales Top-Owl F then I guess.

edit- Saw this link given by Arthuro that states that the HMS Gerfaut will be developed

The manufacture of armaments (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, systems are also affected as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation OSF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Dec 2011 11:30

Septimus P. wrote:Tay...I'll say it yet again...The french indeed suck.. Their repeated failure to sell a good aircarft like Rafale proves yet again exactly what I have been saying the French suck. Their record of Raffy failures speak for themselves. BTW never said any lies about any of the contenders.

Arthuro Sahab, Raffy was indeed tested with RBE2 and Captor-E EF and Gripen NG simulated. Big difference. Simulations are hardly to be taken seriously and the Swiss didnt take them seriously. Raffy hence kept scoring higher due to having done physical tests. The Raffy being considered the best is still based on unfair incomplete competition. Raffy is no doubt a great aircraft. It can supercruise, no idea about the speeds though.

Great win for the Gripen NG. It was the only aircraft suitable for Swiss needs. Swiss neither has the use or the need for expensive twin seaters. Raffy and EF are over qualified to meet the requirment for one of the most neutral countries in the world. The biggest threat they face will be in joint excercises and an occasional passenger aircrarft that has its transponder OFF.

No offense Tay..u scratch my back...I scratch yours. My sadness on the French comes from deep disappointment in their inability to sell quite clearly one of the finest modern aircraft available on the market today.

dud you've just joined this forum and I've already seen enough of your mindless insults against the French. If you have nothing valueable to add, then desist from posting. You have been reported to the mods.

koti · Post by **koti** » 02 Dec 2011 12:59

Kartik wrote: Thanks, I didn't know that..although I suppose that a HMDS has definitely been offered to the IAF - most likely the Thales Top-Owl F then I guess.

edit- Saw this link given by Arthuro that states that the HMS Gerfaut will be developed

The manufacture of armaments (missiles MICA) is also proposed and the development of helmet-mounted sight GERFAUT, systems are also affected as the system of self-protection spectrum and the second generation OSF.

There is this article that says TopSight is being developed for Rafale. I don't think two HMDs will be developed for Rafale.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Dec 2011 14:27

Both SAGEM "gerfault" and THALES "Topsight-E" are available for rafale.

HMS is standard with any rafale export offer, only the french air force has postponed this capability and full integration due to different budget priorities (integrating new weapons for instance). In fact the rafale was already tested with an HMS you can even find a video about those tests on youtube. I'll find it for you when home. It was the first iteration of the topsight-E and that Helmet had a real "dark vador" look !

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Dec 2011 16:57

Still on the swiss saga waiting for the MMRCA decison Swiss authorities have opened an inquiry about the leaks of the technical evaluation. The opening of an inquiry signifies that those leaks are authentic.

Bern investigating the disclosure of secret reports on the Gripen
02. December 2011 11:53

LeMatin.ch & agencies

Two intelligence reports highlighting the weaknesses of the Swedish Gripen landed in the drafting of the "Basler Zeitung", which published them. The Ministry of the Attorney General opened an investigation for violation of official secrecy.

[picture] Air Force Commander Markus Gygax signed both reports. It specifically recommends the purchase of the French Rafale. © KEYSTONE

The acquisition of new fighter aircraft is also the matter of the Ministry of the Attorney General (MPC). The MPC wants to know who was able to provide the daily Basler Zeitung in Basel two classified reports on the evaluation of the future combat aircraft of the Swiss army.

The MPC has confirmed the Tages-Anzeiger have opened an investigation. This is not directed against a specific individual. The prosecutor will look first on those who had access to both reports, signed by the hand of the Swiss Air Force Commander Markus Gygax.

For the purchase of French Rafale

In both reports, the corps commander Gygax specifically recommends the purchase of the French Rafale. "The Rafale by Dassault product is recommended as a new fighter aircraft of the Swiss Air Force," is it in black and white.

Leaks could therefore have been intended to torpedo the Swedish Gripen candidate finally chosen Wednesday by the Federal Council, and the two reports mentioned weaknesses.

So many people have been able to have an interest in the dissemination of two evaluation reports. Department of Defence (DDPS), an internal process of clarification is in progress, according to his spokeswoman Sylvia Steidle, quoted by the daily Zurich.

Not a trivial

The parliamentary sub-committee that accompanied the process of acquiring the new jet was never aware of these reports, reports for its part the National Socialist Council Evi Allemann.

Several sources exclude the leak could be the fact competitors Dassault and EADS. It is unlikely that they have received the evaluation reports of the Swiss Air Force.

The fact that the maneuver to discredit the Gripen has failed does not diminish the seriousness of the offense, according to the MPC. This is to be linked with the magnitude of the contract, which covers more than 3 billion francs.

This is not a peccadillo, the eyes of the MPC. This, even though Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer Wednesday played down the scope of the release of two reports.

http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/berne ... 2011-12-02

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 02 Dec 2011 18:40

@arthuro
seems like rafale F4's OSF comes with TV band only right??and it plans to use MICA's IR band instead??

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 02 Dec 2011 21:30

Indeed The mica IR seekers are fully integrated with rafale weapon system so they are used as an IRST. It is already the case with the rafale that are equiped with the IR sensor so they have 3 (!) Irst.

The new rafale standard has temporarly lost its IR channel to keep an improved TV/laser one. The reason is two fold : costs and also because a new generation of IR seeker will be ready latter this decade. DSI magazine reported "laser matrix IR seeker" in development but no one really knows what it is about.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Dec 2011 21:35

manum wrote:
Singha wrote:if Gripen are smart they could take a chunk of the market segment being targeted by the JF17 (ie basket cases) by offering a simple gripen-C model without the frills and offering to integrate choice of customer radar and weapons. should be anyway a far better a/c than the JF17 and they can tailor the avionics to the price band of customer starting from NG downward.
Musharraf went to Sweden for Gripen also. but they refused to sell war machine to a nation like Pakistan...Its their policy to not to sell such equipments to probable rogue nations...where China finds its market.

@see also the additional readings by scrolling down:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/swe ... tan-02377/

I know it is not an offensive platform.. but supporting platform is good enough for the argument against pakistan.

manum · Post by **manum** » 02 Dec 2011 22:11

I knew someone will point that out...but its true they didnt sell Gripen quoting the same policy...

they sold AEW&C platform though...but http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07pak.htm....

I was telling wrt Gripen, there is flipside I am aware...

Regards

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Dec 2011 22:14

pakis are having a hard time paying for the ereyies. they reduced the initial order.
they would have no money to pay for gripen, and they expected some bheekh of their favourite toy the f-16 anyways.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 03 Dec 2011 00:39

arthuro wrote:Still on the swiss saga waiting for the MMRCA decison Swiss authorities have opened an inquiry about the leaks of the technical evaluation. The opening of an inquiry signifies that those leaks are authentic.

Bern investigating the disclosure of secret reports on the Gripen
02. December 2011 11:53

LeMatin.ch & agencies

Two intelligence reports highlighting the weaknesses of the Swedish Gripen landed in the drafting of the "Basler Zeitung", which published them. The Ministry of the Attorney General opened an investigation for violation of official secrecy.

[picture] Air Force Commander Markus Gygax signed both reports. It specifically recommends the purchase of the French Rafale. © KEYSTONE

The acquisition of new fighter aircraft is also the matter of the Ministry of the Attorney General (MPC). The MPC wants to know who was able to provide the daily Basler Zeitung in Basel two classified reports on the evaluation of the future combat aircraft of the Swiss army.

The MPC has confirmed the Tages-Anzeiger have opened an investigation. This is not directed against a specific individual. The prosecutor will look first on those who had access to both reports, signed by the hand of the Swiss Air Force Commander Markus Gygax.

For the purchase of French Rafale

In both reports, the corps commander Gygax specifically recommends the purchase of the French Rafale. "The Rafale by Dassault product is recommended as a new fighter aircraft of the Swiss Air Force," is it in black and white.

Leaks could therefore have been intended to torpedo the Swedish Gripen candidate finally chosen Wednesday by the Federal Council, and the two reports mentioned weaknesses.

So many people have been able to have an interest in the dissemination of two evaluation reports. Department of Defence (DDPS), an internal process of clarification is in progress, according to his spokeswoman Sylvia Steidle, quoted by the daily Zurich.

Not a trivial

The parliamentary sub-committee that accompanied the process of acquiring the new jet was never aware of these reports, reports for its part the National Socialist Council Evi Allemann.

Several sources exclude the leak could be the fact competitors Dassault and EADS. It is unlikely that they have received the evaluation reports of the Swiss Air Force.

The fact that the maneuver to discredit the Gripen has failed does not diminish the seriousness of the offense, according to the MPC. This is to be linked with the magnitude of the contract, which covers more than 3 billion francs.

This is not a peccadillo, the eyes of the MPC. This, even though Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer Wednesday played down the scope of the release of two reports.
http://www.lematin.ch/actu/suisse/berne ... 2011-12-02

One slide out of over 500 pages is hardly representative. I will also be quite entertaining to see who it was that leaked the slide, most likely some sad person that wanted to see a Gripen deal derailed. Why didn't that person release other slides where Gripen scored the highest? Because he/she has an agenda. Hopefully the culprit will be punished.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 03 Dec 2011 00:44

arthuro wrote:Indeed The mica IR seekers are fully integrated with rafale weapon system so they are used as an IRST. It is already the case with the rafale that are equiped with the IR sensor so they have 3 (!) Irst.

The new rafale standard has temporarly lost its IR channel to keep an improved TV/laser one. The reason is two fold : costs and also because a new generation of IR seeker will be ready latter this decade. DSI magazine reported "laser matrix IR seeker" in development but no one really knows what it is about.

Using MICA seekers as an IRST won't be as effective as a proper IRST, but I guess it's better than nothing. From what I have read the current IR function in OSF is regarded as "obsolete", but you speak French so maybe you could fill us in?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Dec 2011 00:55

koti wrote:
Kartik wrote: Thanks, I didn't know that..although I suppose that a HMDS has definitely been offered to the IAF - most likely the Thales Top-Owl F then I guess.

edit- Saw this link given by Arthuro that states that the HMS Gerfaut will be developed

...

There is this article that says TopSight is being developed for Rafale. I don't think two HMDs will be developed for Rafale.

What is the difference between the Topsight and the Top-Owl HMDS? Two names for the same system?

Edit: Ok. I think Top-Owl is the name for the Helo HMDS. The one for fighters is called Topsight.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 01:04

Singha wrote:the supercruise reference of rafale in wiki points to these two citations. they are not available on the web so I could not check. the first one points to dassault aviation website.

^ "Air defense mission for flotille F12." Fox Three, issue 8, pg. 8. Retrieved: 2011-03-30.
^ Desclaux, Jacques and Jacques Serre (2003). M88 – 2 E4: Advanced New Generation Engine for Rafale Multirole Fighter. AIAA/ICAS International Air and Space Symposium and Exposition: The Next 100 Years. 14–17 July 2003, Dayton, Ohio. AIAA 2003-2610.

and then again one page says:
Though current Rafale variants are claimed to be capable of supercruise, the aircraft was unable to demonstrate this during the Singapore evaluation, and many sources suggest that the aircraft is only marginally capable of supercruise, with light weapons loads and under certain atmospheric conditions, though a planned engine upgrade should, according to some sources , remove this limitation and allow the Rafale to supercruise with more realistic loads at around Mach 1.4.

Right you are. With some effort, even other sources can be traced.

That the Rafale can supercruise is well established. Harping on the French posters to "prove this", "prove that" and then claiming that their claims are not credible because "Dassault says so" as some have done, is beyond silly, its akin to trolling. Sophisticated one-two liners asking for evidence, and then rejecting any published claim to boot. The Singapore claims are from the great Jon Lake. Less said the better about what he thinks of any aircraft type competing with the EF Typhoon. He was even playing up the EF's superior MMI and went so far as to rubbish the pilot who gave the Rafale high marks in a Flight test. He wears his preferences rather openly on his sleeve unfortunately.

All three Eurocanards can SC, if SC is defined as sustaining speeds beyond Mach1 at dry thrust. The issue is with what load. Broadly both aircraft, the EF and Rafale claim similar performance. The key issue though with SC is that at high thrust levels, even at SC, the plane guzzles fuel. The better option is to fly fast, subsonic. Here the Rafale reportedly did 0.9M without full dry thrust. Again, there are references to it having done so in the recent Libyan ops.

All said and done, both the Rafale and Typhoon will ensure IAF has complete dominance over the PAF. I support the latter vis a vis aircraft such as the J-20 but the former will give the IAF better persistent strike options. Its a hard call, actually.

The IAF is at the end of the day, better off, irrespective of whichever type it chooses.

Ramen · Post by **Ramen** » 03 Dec 2011 01:05

2 Part question on this whole saga.

1. Is it true in the Singapore trials one EF managed to beat 3 RSAF F16s in simulated combat while both F15 and Rafale failed to do that?

2. Shouldn't this capability to take on multiple "less" capable adversories be more important in the Indian context than Rafale vs EF one on one?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 01:08

Ramen wrote:2 Part question on this whole saga.

1. Is it true in the Singapore trials one EF managed to beat 3 RSAF F16s in simulated combat and both F15 and Rafale failed to do that?

2. Shouldn't this capability to take on multiple "less" capable adversories be more important in the Indian context than Rafale vs EF one on one?

Even if true, which is doubtful, its irrelevant because the current Tranche3 Typhoons and F3+ Rafales are far beyond than those that flew at Singapore. These platforms when facing each other, have both lost and won. Which tells us they are fairly closely matched in several criteria with an edge to the Typhoon at altitude and the Rafale at lower heights, close. Again, not by a significant margin in all probability and the pilots will decide.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 03 Dec 2011 01:57

trying to cash the happy hour, which aircraft is 'more' suitable for TAR air space as well as the Himalayas for all missions?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Dec 2011 02:37

Singha wrote:pakis are having a hard time paying for the ereyies. they reduced the initial order.
they would have no money to pay for gripen, and they expected some bheekh of their favourite toy the f-16 anyways.

The Saudis are believed to be paying for the one Erieye that they had to reduce from their original order.

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 03 Dec 2011 02:46

Swiss humoristic drawing published in the press :

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Dec 2011 02:49

Karan M wrote: All said and done, both the Rafale and Typhoon will ensure IAF has complete dominance over the PAF. I support the latter vis a vis aircraft such as the J-20 but the former will give the IAF better persistent strike options. Its a hard call, actually.

The IAF is at the end of the day, better off, irrespective of whichever type it chooses.

Crux of the matter! It is a very hard call. My vote goes to Rafale because the A2A in IAF is/will soon be very well covered.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 03 Dec 2011 02:54

indranilroy wrote:
Karan M wrote: All said and done, both the Rafale and Typhoon will ensure IAF has complete dominance over the PAF. I support the latter vis a vis aircraft such as the J-20 but the former will give the IAF better persistent strike options. Its a hard call, actually.

The IAF is at the end of the day, better off, irrespective of whichever type it chooses.
Crux of the matter! It is a very hard call. My vote goes to Rafale because the A2A in IAF is/will soon be very well covered.

Agreed. Only that it is by no means clear that the EF has a clear edge A2A, at least not in all aspects of the game. Results from numerous evals and even some DACT exercises show that the Rafale can handle itself rather well A2A as well.

I think most BRFites and others tend to prefer the Rafale (A former BRF poll, apart from the current one, had shown the same, ditto with a poll on Livefist).

CM

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Dec 2011 02:56

indranilroy wrote: Crux of the matter! It is a very hard call. My vote goes to Rafale because the A2A in IAF is/will soon be very well covered.

Well, there's another way to look at this. The MKI is no slouch as a striker but has certain limitations in A-to-A viz. high RCS and a slightly low T:W ratio and no successor to the R-77 in sight. So the IAF can very well think about the MRCA as the frontline interceptor and escort fighter with a secondary strike role with the MKI handling the bulk of the strike duties once it is available in numbers along with a secondary air defence role.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 02:59

Vasu,

Both should be good. Remember, the IAF conducted extensive trials at Leh, and both aircraft made the cut, and clearly the trials would have specified a certain payload. That matches up with the fact that both aircraft are stated to be relatively low drag, high thrust to weight airframes. There were concerns that the Rafale was underpowered purely based on a comparison with the EF, but then it did clear the IAF trials, has a very respectable A2A performance (e.g. climb rate of something of the order of 305m/s plus), and did well in Libya as well, carrying heavy payloads. While the EF has more thrust to spare - which means it should be able to accelerate faster, climb higher etc, it sacrifices range versus the Rafale. Designed as an air superiority platform with the multirole specification added on, the Typhoon needs CFTs to get the sort of range (from fuel+munitions combos) the Rafale can enjoy (3 large tank, plus heavy payload on the rest of the pylons). The larger radar dia with repositioner means the EF can theoretically detect smaller targets including the newer J-20 style platform as well, better than the Rafale. But the Rafale has a very good functionality in terms of its onboard ESM suite and passive systems as well.

Basically, if you want to do A2A first and also strike - the EF should be a good bet. If you want balanced multirole, without the platform being a slouch in any respect but slightly worse off than the EF in A2A (smaller radar being the main issue), the Rafale is your choice.

At A2A matchups between the Rafale and EF, the former has held its own so far. These, to my knowledge, were either WVR or "mid-BVR", not extremely high alt, very long range, slash and turn attacks the EF was designed for. One interesting thing mentioned in a recent video by a French pilot was that the Rafale RBE2AESA version matches or even exceeds the performance of the Captor-M of the Typhoon. If so, that is a significant accomplishment, and should enable the Rafale to be superior to the Flankers, J-10 variants the PLAAF comes up with. Only the J-20 will remain a challenge, and will probably in any case, require L Band Phalcons to watch out and cue our fighters.
The recent IDR article on IAF modernization states that the IAF will acquire 5 Phalcons + 9 DRDO AEW&C platforms. That is a decent, if not an optimal number.

Basically, the Rafale's respectable results (victories) indicate it is no slouch in the air to air arena, and should be able to hold its own or rather be superior to even advanced PLAAF threats, with only the J-20 as a clear challenger. The PAF is anyhow easily outmatched by either type. The Block 50/52 Falcons the PAF flies, while respectable, are nowhere near the Block 60 level, India was offered. And there, the IAF discovered that the airframe performance was compromised by the CFTs, basically turn rates suffered

My preference is for the EF though on account of the A2A aspect, and the fact that it has a larger radar. But then again, its lower range means that it may not be as effective against persistent, highly mobile threats such as missiles

At the end of the day, the IAF is going to upgrade its 270 Sukhois to the Super 30 and further standards, purchase some 189 MMRCAs, have 120-180 Tejas and upgrade its Jaguars, MiG-29s and Mirages all of which have been signed off on. Plus it intends for 200 more FGFA class platforms. I think it can hold its own against the PAF and PLAAF even in a two front scenario.

To succeed in the sort of TAR scenario you have mentioned, the need of the hour are more and more PGMs (one pass, one sortie success) and long range ASMs to strike against heavily defended C3I nodes and missile networks. We know DRDO has finally kicked off with the Sudarshan, but over the coming decade we really need to build up huge stocks of LGBs to ASMs. In the recent Libyan campaign, each AF expended several hundreds of top of the line PGMs (off the top of my head, France some 200+ AASMs, several hundred LGBs, UK some 700 LGBs and so forth). Against the PLA and PLAAF we really need PGMs in massive quantities. The Astra also needs to become a success, fast. Again, use rates of BVR missiles in a heavy air campaign will be high.

We also need ASTOR type platforms and hyperspectral imaging for accurate targeting.

These to my mind, are the key issues. Not just the fighter platforms. Whichever we get, I am sure the IAF will employ it optimally.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 03:11

nachiket wrote:
indranilroy wrote: Crux of the matter! It is a very hard call. My vote goes to Rafale because the A2A in IAF is/will soon be very well covered.
Well, there's another way to look at this. The MKI is no slouch as a striker but has certain limitations in A-to-A viz. high RCS and a slightly low T:W ratio and no successor to the R-77 in sight. So the IAF can very well think about the MRCA as the frontline interceptor and escort fighter with a secondary strike role with the MKI handling the bulk of the strike duties once it is available in numbers along with a secondary air defence role.

The Super 30 upgrade will add improvements to the radar, reductions in RCS, improvements to avionics and new weapons. With respect to the last, the Russians recently revealed the RVV-BD. This is nothing but a reworked K-37 series missile (read mature design), with more modern technology, and can handle targets maneuvering at upto 8G (fairly credible for such a large missile). It has a range of upto 200 km. This is of course viz. the Super 30.

But then lets consider the existing MKI itself in exercises.

Also, if you do rough back of the envelope calculations, the MKI when loaded up with an A2A load, has a decent T/W ratio. A2A missiles are far lighter than the A2G ordinance required for strike.

In pretty much every exercise it has been in, the aircraft has either dominated or held its own. At Red Flag WVR workups at Mountain Home, PS Chopra's rebuttal to the claims by Fornof reveals that the aircraft pretty much won every dogfight it was in. At the BVR battle in Red Flag itself, the aircraft topped the BVR scales on some days, despite the Bars operating in a training mode. When the IAF went to France, the French noted the MKI was a powerful plane, with a very powerful radar and they came up with special tactics to counter it. In India, exercising against the Tornados (F3 ADV version), which have long range Foxhunter radars (fairly respectable even today) and a vast amount of experience against NATO airforces in BVR, the MKIs dominated. Again, against the RSAF F-16s in KKD (first exercise), the MKIs won (the Bisons had a tough time).

Point is, the existing MKI itself is no slouch in air to air & can handle the existing PAF and PLAAF fleet just fine. Bar the J-20 even the advanced variants can be tackled. The Super30, frankly, will just take the MKI to the next level in terms of systems, and give it a better edge than the one it already enjoys.

Nor does the IAF work in some sort of x type for A2A and y type for A2G mode when it has such powerful multirole platforms. It will use both the MMRCA and MKI fleet, also the Tejas for air dominance, air superiority, CAP etc and also for strike, as the situation demands.

You'll have a mix of FSLs and FCLs in the MMRCA squadrons, same as with the MKIs today.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Dec 2011 03:26

Another thing that would probably make its way into the Super 30 upgrade, the same way the original Su-35 created the tech for the MKI

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/le ... df372cd343

Sensor fusion, read the portion about "passport".

There has also been talk of the newer AL31FM series engines replacing the AL-31FP for the newer Su-30 MKIs. Of course something will have to be done for fuel as well because significant more thrust equals more fuel consumption, generally speaking

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Dec 2011 03:55

Thanks for those two posts.

Karan M wrote: There has also been talk of the newer AL31FM series engines replacing the AL-31FP for the newer Su-30 MKIs. Of course something will have to be done for fuel as well because significant more thrust equals more fuel consumption, generally speaking

Plumbing for EFTs maybe? All Flanker variants lack that AFAIK.