Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 13 Dec 2011 10:30

devesh wrote: is it b/c somehow "Pakis" were responsible that makes us sympathize? they are all Pakis.

The maimed children are victims of a perverse ideology, and come from families who look to India as a friend. I think that is sufficient reason for sympathy.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 13 Dec 2011 10:30

Sushupti wrote:Parashu bhi why you want to meer the fate of Kartvirya Arjuna?

Sushupti:

Was it not I who introduced the son of Kartvirya to his fate, when the father became a commom cow thief in the house of Jamadagni, my ancestor?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2011 10:31

johneeG wrote: Absolute peace can only be had at realisation of Gyanam. Until then, one has to be content with victory or truce. Many a times, truce is mistaken for peace...

er gyan does not give you "peace". It gives you knowledge that the truth is not peace nor war, not sorrow nor happiness. Absolute peace can never be there. There will always be a balance between war and peace. People who claim absolute peace are, as you know, bullshitting. Sorry OT

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 10:37

shiv wrote:
johneeG wrote: Absolute peace can only be had at realisation of Gyanam. Until then, one has to be content with victory or truce. Many a times, truce is mistaken for peace...
er gyan does not give you "peace". It gives you knowledge that the truth is not peace nor war, not sorrow nor happiness. Absolute peace can never be there. There will always be a balance between war and peace. People who claim absolute peace are, as you know, bullshitting. Sorry OT

Well, I thought peace is a mental state. Then, absolute peace requires Gyanam.

Otherwise, I agree there is no absolute peace in the external world. And pursuing for such an absolute peace in external world will be futile(if not dangerous).

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 13 Dec 2011 10:46

Arjun wrote:
parsuram wrote: As for the others, why should I care, and more to the point, why should you, other than you are not entirely familiar with this muhhamat guy. I will offer you and your friends RamaY and Dipankar a corrective path.
Parsuram ji,

The issue is that the right to critically analyze religions on BRF has in itself been a hard slog and even that privilege has been available only in fits and starts. Using profanity while discussing religious figures is pushing beyond the boundaries of what is acceptable social norm today - and further, it sets back the efforts of those on this forum who do want more threads to critically analyze the intolerance that hides in the garb of religion.

The moderators need to take a call on this one.

Arjun Ji:

First, I was not in any way in the process of discussing "religion", or critically analyzing it. Shorn of all the mild profanity, I made a simple point/request to young Sushupti: This business of heaping peace on this profit of Islam, every time his name is uttered in print (I am sure even you, in your political correctness do not intone "peace be upon him" every time you say "Mohammad". I do not know any one who does. So why this hypocracy. Certainly those who are not muslims are under no obligation to offer up peace by the bucketful every time they write or say "mohhamad". I just stated this fact. And I requested that non muslims not do it. That is because I have strong views about the role of this individual in destroying the peace of the world, which his barbaric followers continue to do. Indeed, in the interests of secularism, why do we not add this "PBHU" on this guy. Would you have a problem with that? what about let not non muslims not have to "PBHU"? Let us see how you come down on this matter Arjun ji Peace be upon you.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 10:58

If peace is a mental state, then it cannot be wished upon anyone by anyone. If someone wants to be peaceful, then be. If he is not peaceful, no amount of wishing will do the trick.

It is very much like SELF-respect. Pakis can either have self-respect or not. Others(including the Super Duper power) cant help it in acquiring a self-respect.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 13 Dec 2011 11:04

ramana wrote:Are you a pisko master perchance!

.....
You are very direct and not obfuscating.

........

ramanaji, Thank You! I am honored

I am just an electrical engineer employed in itvity in massaland

. Pisko is side business.

A_Gupta wrote:How does the feeling of shame persist across generations? E.g., Jinnah's grandfather converted to Islam, had to be sometime between 1800-1850. From Paneli village in Gondal state, per Wiki, it was ruled by a Hindu dynasty, so it wasn't likely a conversion under duress. How did the Ghazi feeling of shame percolate into Jinnah?

Shame/self-hatred is passed on through culture. Parents have a part in it, but mostly its the surrounding cultural influences that crystallize the feeling.

A big cultural influence are teachers in the culture. It could be the mullah in the local Jirgah or it could be the pastor in the local church. They might say how great Mughals and how unclean and filthy the bania Hindu's are or "How TFTA the Mughal descendants are and how SDRE the banias are". Now when a descendant of a Gujju bania* like Jinnahbhai looks in the mirror he will see an SDRE only, not a TFTA. This he knows very well deep within, and it conflicts with the messages passed on to him by the cultural influences of self-shame. A large part of the cultural practises (like removing shoes while entering the house) is largely derived from SDRE Hindu bania whom he is supposed to hate. So one ends up hating the part that resembles anything SDRE, or in otherwords themselves. It is not surprising that porkis have claimed to be a part of middel east and as illegitimate descendants of TFTA araps. It is also not surprising that Baki raakit mard variety filth oppose their wimmins watching Hindi soap opera. How are you supposed to like it?? Its made by Hindu Banias! How can i reconcile my wimmin liking that soap opera? It is impossible to like anything Hindu! Who knows, she might just convert. We need more Islam and we need to purify ourselves more... Jeeeeehaaard!

Edit1: OT: Have any mallus out here wondered why many of their xtian friends have names like "Saju, Liji, Dijo, Sijo" ? After wondering why the heck would mallus name their kids like that, the only answer I could find was that they did not want ANY indic sounding name. However, I am still confused over why they did not chose an abrahamic name instead? Like Joseph or Zacharia or something like that. I did find a few mallus (especially Roman Catholics) give their kids abrahamic names, but I could not find enough samples to generalize.

Edit2: I realize that Jinnah sahib was Rajput descendent.... but he was doing business, which makes him a bania

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 13 Dec 2011 11:10

In Mumbai, a group of beggars sit in front of CST. The leader of beggars is a professional beggar with properties in millions but stills begs due to habit. Their only livelihood is that as long as people go inside VT or come out, they give some alms.

Now sometimes the people going in or coming out of CST abuse the beggar. Most beggars know that if they stop the VT traffic due to abuse, they will not get any alms, so better to have some abuse and lots of alms, then no alms and no abuse.

However, one day the leader decides to stop the VT traffic from his entrance. Other entrances are now more crowded, other beggars at other entrances start getting more money, but this beggar group has no money now.
What should his fellow beggars do if they realize that our leader has millions stashed away and doesn't give a thought what happens to his group beggars.

This is what Pakistanis are being faced with. If they have any intelligence left, they will dispose of their leaders.

Otherwise pretty soon other beggar groups will be drinking Pepsi Cola, and this beggar group will be fighting over Morarji Cola!

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 13 Dec 2011 11:18

Current news story on the Pak Tribune:

37 Hindus convert to Islam in Matli
By Sameer Mandhro
Published: December 13, 2011

KARACHI: On Saturday, 37 people from seven Hindu families converted to Islam in Matli. They claim that more families will be embracing the religion in the coming weeks.

In the last 22 months, around 93 families from the Bheel community ie Dalits or untouchables, approached the Bait-us-Salam Madrassa in Matli to convert. Most of these people work as farmers and are from Badin, Tando Muhammad Khan, Mirpurkhas or Sanghar...said a newly converted Abdullah Shaikh -- “We had no knowledge of our religion. I haven’t even seen our sacred book and don’t even know what it’s called.”

“I am happy to convert,” he said. “No one forced me to do this. My children will offer their prayers proudly and will not be discriminated against.” He told The Express Tribune that he was a farmer and had eight children. “We live comfortably,” he said. “My maternal cousin converted to Islam a few months ago and it really inspired me to do the same.”

Another new convert Khan Muhammad, 45, said that no one in his family had converted to Islam. It is commonly believed that these people convert as they are unable to pay the debts they owe to their landlords. As the debts keep mounting, the landlords exploit them and force them to work on their lands as bonded labour. He admitted that he owed Rs60,000 in debt and the seminary had paid it off. While talking to The Express Tribune about religion and tradition, he said that his brother and sister-in-law had asked a Muslim cleric to perform their Nikkah some 40 years ago because they did not know what religious norms they were supposed to follow.

Maulana Muhammad Mushtaque Magsi from the Bait-us-Salam Madrassa confirmed that 93 families had indeed converted to Islam in the last 22 months. “Some students and converts managed to convince others to follow suit,” he said. “A few people also come here because they are in debt or fed up with life. We do not force anyone to convert.”

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 13 Dec 2011 11:22

parsuram wrote: what about let not non muslims not have to "PBHU"? Let us see how you come down on this matter Arjun ji Peace be upon you.

Am in complete agreement, Parsuram ji. I thought Sushupti might have intended to be sarcastic when he used PBUH, but I note that he has responded to your post but has made no mention of being sarcastic.

You were certainly right to protest that term, and maybe even say that if Sushupti's quote is correct - peace should NOT be upon him. But the usage of profanity makes your post a bit of a hot potato. You may want to modify that part as a preventive measure.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 11:26

I think the shame/self-hatred works this way:
You are shamed for having or being something. Over the time you accept the narrative and feel ashamed. Then, you look for a way to liberate yourself from the shame. The easiest way is to 'convert' from your earlier state to a new state. For eg: If you are shamed for being a man, then you castrate and try to fit in.

After the conversion, the person is happy that he is liberated from his shame. But a new problem starts for him. He looks at others who have not converted and still continue with their old ways. This creates takleef. From a converted perspective, the existence of unconverted others is a reminder of his former shameful days. From unconverted perspective, he is held in contempt for converting.

In short, he is back to where he started from. Also the existence of unconverted others poses questions on his decision to convert. So, there is only one way to liberate himself from the shame and justify his action of conversion: by converting others.

Eg: As man is shamed for being a man. He feels ashamed and has castrated to fit in. Other men hold him in contempt for this action. So, the castrated man tries to shame all men and get them castrated. The more he succeeds in these efforts the more his 'conversion' is reaffirmed and he feels at peace. On the other hand, if the situation changes and 'being a man' becomes trendy and acceptable, then the castrated man will suffer from cognitive dissonance and have lot of takleef.

The point I am trying to make is that for any converted person, the existence of original unconverted people causes takleef. And if those unconverted people rise in stature, then the convert will have cognitive dissonance.

He searches for a target who is causing all this takleef and zeroes in on the unconverts as the cause of takleef. And his rage is directed at them.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Dec 2011 11:37

lakshmikanth wrote: A large part of the cultural practises (like removing shoes while entering the house) is largely derived from SDRE Hindu bania whom he is supposed to hate.

A minor nit here - taking off the shoes when entering the house is common through Turkey, and Iran.

http://www.vayama.com/etiquette/iran/

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Mi ... -BR-1.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_carpet

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 13 Dec 2011 11:42

When we deal with Islam, Islam-pasand Muslims and even Islam-appeasists, it is important that one is dispassionate in one's commentary! The more emotional (and even vulgar) terminology one uses for Islam and its adherents, the more likely it is that Islamists and Islam-Apologists would be able to stamp you as an Islamophobe - one who hates Islam, and thus quash one's arguments as rants of a deranged mind full of hate and misunderstanding.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Dec 2011 11:42

shiv wrote:
johneeG wrote:OT, but I am confused. So, a noob query: Is Arun == A_Gupta?
Well A is either Arun or Archana. That much I know

Moderator: since this came up, I suppose I'm entitled to answer.

A_Gupta is Arun Gupta. Long ago, Arun_Gupta was my handle on BRF, but somehow that was lost, and moderator assigned me A_Gupta. (No "Archana" is known to me.)
Other markers of my online identity are:
Owner of the blogs:
http://arunsmusings.blogspot.com/
http://observingliberalpakistan.blogspot.com/
The signature ag3L on USENET.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/macgupta123
Owner of the yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheHeathenInHisBlindness/

The last is dedicated to the work of Prof. Balagangadhara (Balu) and his graduate students. I am a critical admirer but not a student of his; but one of the lessons I learned from Balu is to be very cautious in judging any culture to be terminally flawed.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 13 Dec 2011 12:04

A_Gupta wrote: A minor nit here - taking off the shoes when entering the house is common through Turkey, and Iran.

Wonder if it originated as an Islamic culture? May be irrelevant. But I hope you get the gist of what I am saying.

johneeG wrote: The point I am trying to make is that for any converted person, the existence of original unconverted people causes takleef. And if those unconverted people rise in stature, then the convert will have cognitive dissonance.

He searches for a target who is causing all this takleef and zeroes in on the unconverts as the cause of takleef. And his rage is directed at them.

Yes, and when the unconverted thrive and prove him wrong, he has two choices, he has to either accept defeat OR he has to try harder to adhere to his new religion. This is what I think causes "More Islam is the answer" syndrome or the basis of the purification drive that goes on in Pakistan.

shiv wrote: The thought that occurs to me is that shame is not necessarliy a memory of some remote past event, but a daily ongoing problem. A lot of Muslims realise fully well that complete nonsense is being perpetrated in the name of Islam, but, having been born in the family as it were, they are faced with a stark choice.

If they admit that criminality and hatred are being promoted in the name of Islam, they are not merely shamed, but as per the rules they have been brought up with, they can be physically harmed. The easiest route is denial. Don't fight it.

Abrahamic religions are extremely punitive. They have severe punishment for every imaginable "sin" you can commit. This is nothing but a continuous imposition of self-hate, self-shame and self-guilt. The saying "Oh Lord forgive me for I have sinned", is nothing but agreeing that one did not follow the ideals of the book which one holds to be supreme. It is nothing but hating oneself for not meeting the ideals and being ashamed of the fact.

Abrahamic religions thereby make its followers internalize self-hatred self-pity and set an unreachable bar of purity for the followers to reach. By all counts, this is a definition of a cult. First gen EJs come to mind when I think of the above. So do the Islamic "purification" drive.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 Dec 2011 12:18

parsuram wrote:A_Gupta:

Where the Prophet was wrong, I have no problem in saying that he was wrong.
Really? perhaps you should check with Salman Rushdie what he thinks of your approach to enlightened discussion within islam. Better still, go to any of the collection of islamic web sites, and offer this opinion, making sure to provide your address, zip and phone number. It is easy to come on BR and offer an intellectually balanced view point on islam.

I have, when I was on USENET, and was at a known location (CMU). A gentle faithfool named Mahfooz Jaffry was terminally upset with me.

Then there is the fact that invective often takes the place of thought.
So I concur with Dipanker.
Not so much of a fact, really. Invective takes effort on part of civil people simply because they are not used to exercising it. Check with GB Shaw. I have never been impolite towards civil, polite people. As for the others, why should I care, and more to the point, why should you, other than you are not entirely familiar with this muhhamat guy. I will offer you and your friends RamaY and Dipankar a corrective path. I suggest for your reading pleasure the following:

Mohammed [Paperback] (1974)

Maxime Rodinson (Author)
Two reviews, one muslim (arab) one not(American) you are welcome to read both excellent reviews recommending this book. More to the point, this book was written in 1974, before the hype about Islam and the appearance of sharply divided propaganda books. I suggest everyone interested in a true, unbiased, unvarnished account of muhhamad's life should read this book.[French Author, English translation]

[/quote]
If Rodinson is the only Muhammad you've read, then I've way head of you. I even spent three days of doing nothing but reading the Quran and then going to the Pittsburgh temple to see "Hindu idolatory" through "Muhammad's eyes" (well, as much as is possible through English translation

).

Muhammad is not really the issue, he was a man of his times, no more or less sanguinary than his contemporaries. The issue is those who fourteen centuries later take him as undebatable. One of the Hindu "ideal" persons is Shri Rama, and even so, Hindus debate whether he was right in shooting Vaali and exiling Sita from Ayodhya. That does not make Hindus respect him or worship him less. (And a Rodinson can turn Rama into another unappetizing character, it is not difficult to do.) Muslims have to realize that being critical of Muhammad is not incompatible with considering him the epitome of integrity and the most beloved of Allah. The lack of that critical attitude among Muslims is no more because of Muhammad than the bloodiness of the church set up by St. Paul and made official by Constantine is the fault of Jesus.

Think about it - your namesake Parsuram is probably the author of the oldest remembered genocide -when he set out to wipe out all the Kshatriyas - and we Hindus don't blink an eye about it. We would not stand for anyone asking us to condemn him. We make him into a avataar, give him some kind of mission of destroying evil, and seek to emulate him - never. Sri Krishna had his own Yadavas exterminated. Our own sacred history can be used (and has been used by our detractors) to make us look absurd. And in modern times there are enough Dals and Senas to prove the point too. All I can say is that we've become very sophisticated in understanding and interpreting our sacred histories; the Mussalmans with one-third our age have not yet, and may never get there, but we can't be sure of that.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 13 Dec 2011 13:01

A_Gupta wrote:
parsuram wrote: Parsuram is probably the author of the oldest remembered genocide -when he set out to wipe out all the Kshatriyas - and we Hindus don't blink an eye about it. We would not stand for anyone asking us to condemn him. We make him into a avataar, give him some kind of mission of destroying evil, and seek to emulate him - never. Sri Krishna had his own Yadavas exterminated. Our own sacred history can be used (and has been used by our detractors) to make us look absurd. And in modern times there are enough Dals and Senas to prove the point too. All I can say is that we've become very sophisticated in understanding and interpreting our sacred histories; the Mussalmans with one-third our age have not yet, and may never get there, but we can't be sure of that.

Ahaa Arunji...even a good man like Bali was crossed by Vaman?why??? these are the questions I've reserved to ask my Guru(when I meet him). I've tried these Qs on few spiritualists both in India and Massaland...the only and whole answer I get is "Its daiva leela only..." probably I'm not yet "there" to understand these leelas with logic. Btw, regarding Sri Ram and Sita, why do you think they got married on "Navami" while it is not a suggested "tithi" by any panchanga? and "Navami" muhurtham was suggested by Vishwamitra. Why? He foresaw the becoming of Ravan is the only logic I could interpret. Same could be said of "Ashtami"? I don't know. Anyways all this is OT

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 13 Dec 2011 13:03

shiv wrote: er gyan does not give you "peace". It gives you knowledge that the truth is not peace nor war, not sorrow nor happiness. Absolute peace can never be there. There will always be a balance between war and peace. People who claim absolute peace are, as you know, bullshitting. Sorry OT

Extremely sorry for OT but I cant hold myself on this.

As per Sankhya and Vedanta:

Absolute Peace==Absolute Gyan==Absoulte bliss==Brahmh (Sadh-chidh-ananda-shanti)

No Djannat, No 72, No Honey, No Liquor, No judgement day, No bullshit. Proud to be a Sanatan Dharmi.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Dec 2011 14:07

** Admin Warning **

Folks, one does understand that discussing Islam and its precepts are inevitable in this thread because Pakistan is an 'Islamic Republic' and claims its conduct is based on Islamic religious principles. Such discussions are always fraught with a danger, however, that they may very quickly go tangentially. I sense some danger of that happening now. Please exercise caution and stay relevant to the thread. This is a thread on Pakistan after all.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 14:11

SSridhar,
last post on this issue, please allow it.

A_Gupta wrote: If Rodinson is the only Muhammad you've read, then I've way head of you. I even spent three days of doing nothing but reading the Quran and then going to the Pittsburgh temple to see "Hindu idolatory" through "Muhammad's eyes" (well, as much as is possible through English translation ).

Have you read Hadis as well? It seems Hadis is an absolute to understand Islam. Quran, it seems is organised in a unique fashion. It is neither chronological nor issue based. But based on the length of verses. So, the verses cannot really be understood properly without the context. The context is provided by the Hadis.

Of course, one may raise doubts on the genuineness or historicity of Hadis. But the same doubts can also be raised on Quran. Anyway, these doubts are irrelevent because a Islam asks its adherents to accept them as true.

A_Gupta wrote: Muhammad is not really the issue, he was a man of his times, no more or less sanguinary than his contemporaries.

Not really. According to the Hadis(the traditional biography of Mohammad), before the advent of Muhammad, the arab pagans were quite tolerant of other religions. But the advent of Islam changed all that according to the Hadis.

Infact, before the advent of Abrahamic religions, how many wars happened with a motive to convert others in the entire world?

A_Gupta wrote: The issue is those who fourteen centuries later take him as undebatable.

Nope, the issue is the ideology that teaches it as undebatable. Why target individuals when its the ideology that is the cause? Is it because the individuals are easier to target then ideology?

Anyway, if he is not undebatable, then whats the objection that is being raised by you and deepankar? Language?

A_Gupta wrote: One of the Hindu "ideal" persons is Shri Rama, and even so, Hindus debate whether he was right in shooting Vaali and exiling Sita from Ayodhya. That does not make Hindus respect him or worship him less.

From a Hindu perspective, Sri Rama is the ideal. Period. No debates on that. The debate is how and why he is ideal, what prompted and justified his actions. Shooting vali, killing Tataka, leaving Sita in woods, slaying Ravana,...etc are debated to understand how they were correct. The debate is not whether it is correct or not. Of course, debates can take place questioning Sri Rama's righteousness, but would it be Hindu? Hindus can do such debates, but the hindu religion does not support that debate.

A_Gupta wrote: (And a Rodinson can turn Rama into another unappetizing character, it is not difficult to do.)

He may try. It is not difficult to denigrate Sri Rama, if one depends on half-truths or events taken out of context. Similarly, Mohammad can be presented as benevolent.

A_Gupta wrote: Muslims have to realize that being critical of Muhammad is not incompatible with considering him the epitome of integrity and the most beloved of Allah.

You are hung up with people(muslims), when its the ideology that teaches that any criticism of Mohammad is the criticism of Islam. Why blame muslims? Why not Islam?

A_Gupta wrote: The lack of that critical attitude among Muslims is no more because of Muhammad than the bloodiness of the church set up by St. Paul and made official by Constantine is the fault of Jesus.

Are you open to the possibility that the lack of critical attitude among Muslims or Church was directly caused by the intolerance of Mohammad or Jesus towards criticism?

A_Gupta wrote: Think about it - your namesake Parsuram is probably the author of the oldest remembered genocide -when he set out to wipe out all the Kshatriyas - and we Hindus don't blink an eye about it. We would not stand for anyone asking us to condemn him.

Why club all Hindus with yourself? Attitudes differ. You dont seem to blink an eye to question Sri Rama. Many other Hindus might shudder at such a proposition.

Much better position would be to stop going after individuals and take up the ideology.

A_Gupta wrote: We make him into a avataar, give him some kind of mission of destroying evil, and seek to emulate him - never.

As per Hinduism, Parashurama was an Avatar. He was possessed by Lord Vishnu. He exterminated the Kshatriyas because they were evil. Then, Sri Rama reclaimed the Vishnu's aura within Parashurama. Thereafter, Parashurama remained as a great sage. Hinduism does not exhort its adherents to follow the example of Parashurama. So, when Hindus do not follow the example of Parashurama, they are simply following Hinduism. They are not questioning it.

You obviously dont seem convinced with Hinduism's explanation. Its your prerogative.

A_Gupta wrote: Sri Krishna had his own Yadavas exterminated.

Really?!!! When and How? Please do expound.

I thought the Yadavas were exterminated due to internal fights that had nothing to do with Lord Krishna. It was a curse of Durvasa, if I am not wrong. Or maybe you have another source rivaling the Hindu scriptures.

A_Gupta wrote: Our own sacred history can be used (and has been used by our detractors) to make us look absurd.

If the instances quoted by you are examples, then it seems to me that they have failed in their attempts. However, people are free to accept their depictions.

A_Gupta wrote: And in modern times there are enough Dals and Senas to prove the point too.

Actions of 'Dals and Senas' have nothing to do with Hinduism. Hinduism, as a religion, can independently be critiqued. Similarly, actions of 'Dals and Senas' can be independently evaluated. Unless, their actions are direct result of Hinduism, Hinduism is neither to be blamed nor praised for their actions.

A_Gupta wrote: All I can say is that we've become very sophisticated in understanding and interpreting our sacred histories; the Mussalmans with one-third our age have not yet, and may never get there, but we can't be sure of that.

Maybe some like you have become sophisticated, but certainly not all Hindus.

If your point was that Hinduism is as barbaric as Islam and that only difference is that Muslims still stick with their Islam while Hindus try 'sophisticated understanding'. Then, I think you are wrong. The point is that Hinduism, itself, tells Hindus what to follow and what not to follow. The same is true for Islam or any religion or ideology. And adherents simply do as taught by their ideology.

Hindus are not making any 'sophisticated understanding', they are simply accepting Hinduism's explanation of things just as muslims accept Islam. Maybe Hinduism is sophisticated and Islam is barbaric...

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 13 Dec 2011 14:12

Ambassador Munter's second interview Hamid Mir. I am sorry i it was posted earlier.

http://www.pakistanherald.com/Program/C ... d-Mir-8977

Notice the Paki's essence. He almost pleaded the ambassador to apologies. Pakistaniyat at full display.

parsuram · Post by **parsuram** » 13 Dec 2011 14:55

A_Gupta:

I was going to take the time to respond to your post to me, but I see that JohneeG has saved me the trouble. A recurrent theme that I notice in your response is your tendency to extrapolate from single data points, eg, because I suggested a book by Rodinson on Mohammad, then:

If Rodinson is the only Muhammad you've read, then I've way head of you.

I did not know this was some sort of a track and field event, but no matter. I did not intend to unload a library on any one, just one representative source, so that you guys can stop intoning PBHU every time the man's name comes up. As for your persistant efforts to tar Hinduism with an islamic brush (your dals and senas comment comes to mind - but before you extrapolate from this one example I quote - no, I am not a member of either), I can only ask you to pay attention to the matter of scale, and only then, attempt your equality of effort and purpose. However, it would be of little use for me to nit pic any more of your comments, it not being an excersize to my liking, and a fruitless one at that, considering the substantial record of your own public literary activities to which you have attested. I wish you the best in those.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Dec 2011 15:05

Shri B Raman calls for targeted attacks on terrorist sanctuaries inside Pakistan citing examples of US bombing of Libya and OBL raid!

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot. ... -fist.html

5.The capability of the terrorists to carry out repeated mass fatality attacks or potentially catastrophic attacks was facilitated by the connivance of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and by the availability of sanctuaries and training facilities in Pakistani territory.

6.A repeatedly demonstrated lesson in the history of terrorism is that when terrorists operate with the complicity of a foreign intelligence agency from foreign sanctuaries it would not be possible to eliminate their terrorism unless the intelligence agency and/or the sanctuaries are targeted and irreparable damages are inflicted on them.

7.The US air strikes in Libya ordered by President Reagan in 1986 in retaliation for a bomb attack on US soldiers in Berlin was an example of a justified attack on a foreign State assisting terrorists. The US special forces attack in Abbottabad in Pakistan on May 2,2011, to kill Osama bin Laden was an example of an attack targeting sanctuaries and those given sanctuaries without targeting the State which provided sanctuary. The US has also been using its Drone (pilotless plane) strikes in North and South Waziristan as part of its counter-sanctuaries strategy.

8.Since the mass fatality attacks started in 1985, we have refrained from targeting either the State of Pakistan and its ISI or the terrorists and their sanctuaries in Pakistani territory. Even if we don’t want to exercise a counter-State policy against Pakistan, unless we exercise the counter-sanctuaries policy against the terrorist organisations and their sanctuaries in Pakistani territory, we will be destined to see a periodic recurrence of such attacks on our nationals.

9. There are two requirements for an effective counter-sanctuary strategy---- the political will to undertake targeted attacks against sanctuaries even at the risk of a possible military conflict with Pakistan and the clandestine capability called the covert action capability to translate the political will into action.

10. In India, we do not have either the political will or the covert action capability. Whatever limited covert action capability we had against Pakistan was ordered to be disbanded by Shri Inder Gujral when he was the Prime Minister in 1997. Neither Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee, who succeeded him, nor Dr.Manmohan Singh have shown a willingness to order a re-creation of our covert action capability because they did not have the political courage to order its use against the sanctuaries.

11. The ISI as well as the terrorists sponsored by it know that India does not have a retaliatory covert action capability and that fear of a military conflict degenerating into a nuclear one has stymied Indian decision-making on the inclusion of a counter-sanctuary component into our counter-terrorism strategy.

12. The Indian State finds itself in a state of not having the required covert action capability to act against the sanctuaries and not having the political will and courage to use that capability even if we re-create it.

13. We will never be able to deal with mass fatality terrorism emanating from Pakistani territory unless we get out of this self-created and self-imposed paralysis of the will of the Indian State to act.

14. I am all for talks with Pakistan to improve our relations, but the talks must be accompanied by the will to act against the sanctuaries. Talking alone without demonstrating a will to act will prove counter-productive.

15.As we observe the 10th anniversary of the attack on the Parliament and pay homage to our brave security personnel who died to thwart the attack, it is this question-----the resuscitation of the national will to act as demonstrated by Indira Gandhi in 1971 and the re-creation of the covert action capability to translate that will into action--- that should engage our attention.

16. Instead of doing so, the entire focus has been on the perceived delay in the execution of Afzal Guru, an Indian national, who has been sentenced to death by the court for his complicity with the terrorists who came from the sanctuaries in Pakistan. His execution is not going to put an end to the sanctuaries in Pakistan. Only the iron fist of the Indian State will do so. ( 13-12-11)

While lack of political will is believable, it is hard to believe that we don't have covert capabilities to strike at terror targets. Shri Gujral "ordering" the disbanding of covert capabilities is being referenced in various articles since 1997. How is it possible that they were not restored / ramped up after parliament attacks? at least after 26/11? Is Shri B Rawman deliberately misleading

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Dec 2011 16:28

Excellent article by Col Athale in Rediff:

3 Blunders India committed in the 1971 War

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 13 Dec 2011 16:37

Venkarl wrote: Ahaa Arunji...even a good man like Bali was crossed by Vaman?why??? these are the questions I've reserved to ask my Guru(when I meet him). I've tried these Qs on few spiritualists both in India and Massaland...the only and whole answer I get is "Its daiva leela only..." probably I'm not yet "there" to understand these leelas with logic. Btw, regarding Sri Ram and Sita, why do you think they got married on "Navami" while it is not a suggested "tithi" by any panchanga? and "Navami" muhurtham was suggested by Vishwamitra. Why? He foresaw the becoming of Ravan is the only logic I could interpret. Same could be said of "Ashtami"? I don't know. Anyways all this is OT

Replied Here: Link

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 13 Dec 2011 16:58

Scars of BD independence war LINK

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Dec 2011 17:05

While lack of political will is believable, it is hard to believe that we don't have covert capabilities to strike at terror targets. Shri Gujral "ordering" the disbanding of covert capabilities is being referenced in various articles since 1997. How is it possible that they were not restored / ramped up after parliament attacks? at least after 26/11? Is Shri B Rawman deliberately misleading

Never understand B.Raman these days...one day he suggets forgetting the past and making love to TSP and the other day turns around and says that we should bomb the sanctuaries.

I guess even our TSP policy follows this blow hot, blow cold strategy which is why we look clueless as to what to do after every attack.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 13 Dec 2011 17:08

partha wrote: While lack of political will is believable, it is hard to believe that we don't have covert capabilities to strike at terror targets. Shri Gujral "ordering" the disbanding of covert capabilities is being referenced in various articles since 1997. How is it possible that they were not restored / ramped up after parliament attacks? at least after 26/11? Is Shri B Rawman deliberately misleading

There was a parallel intelligence structure in India which generally remained passive so to avoid exposure. It was these type of elements which were suppressed by IKG doctrine. However,after 26/11 they regrouped again and have been effective since then in avoiding atleast 3 major terrorist attacks on India. It appears to be confusing because he is talking about two different "India"s when most of us think that he is talking about a single "India"
Raman knows what he is talking about.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2011 17:20

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16157177

Pakistan: Karachi police free 'chained' students

About 50 students have been freed from a religious school in Karachi, Pakistan - where some were being kept in chains, local officials say.

Reports suggest the male students, some as young as 12, were kept in what amounted to a torture chamber.

They were beaten, deprived of food and pressured to join the Taliban, the reports say.

At least two people helping run the madrassa have been arrested, but the head escaped, police said.

Pakistan's interior minister has ordered an inquiry into the incident.

The captives were found during a police raid on the site in the central Sohrab Goth district of Karachi late on Monday, police said.

"Those recovered are aged between 12 and 50 and are mainly of Pashtun ethnicity," Gadap Town police superintendent Rao Anwar told Pakistan's Express Tribune newspaper.

Taliban 'link'

A police official told the BBC that most of the students were drug addicts whose parents had left them at the madrassa for treatment.

One boy said Taliban members had visited the seminary and told them to "prepare for battle".

Some Islamic schools in Pakistan are accused of being training camps for militants, and a police official told AFP news agency that the possibility of such links would be part of the investigation into this school.

Government records suggest there are more than 15,000 madrassas in Pakistan, providing education for more than two million students - about 5% of Pakistani children in formal education, AFP said.

But officials suspect thousands more unregistered schools provide the only affordable education option for children of poverty-stricken families.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 13 Dec 2011 17:31

devesh wrote:lot of expressions of angst and sorrow about the Afghan bombing. simple question. Why?

You reap what you sow. while I was looking at that picture, I felt sorry for the human loss, but then I was reminded of the tragedies inflicted by this very population for the last few centuries, in the name of their god and religion. and I find myself wondering why the he** are so many people of BRF falling over their heels to express their dismay and utmost and sincerest sorrow at this?

is it b/c somehow "Pakis" were responsible that makes us sympathize? they are all Pakis. in a green-on-green fight, you and I are still Kafirs worthy of slaughter. when I looked at that picture, I was reminded of similar scenes of massacres that must have occurred to Hindus multiplied by a 1000 times. I feel no sympathy for them. they are reaping the product of their own centuries long karma.

AoA!!!

+1008

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Dec 2011 18:07

parsuram wrote: Not so much of a fact, really. Invective takes effort on part of civil people simply because they are not used to exercising it. Check with GB Shaw. I have never been impolite towards civil, polite people. As for the others, why should I care, and more to the point, why should you, other than you are not entirely familiar with this muhhamat guy. I will offer you and your friends RamaY and Dipankar a corrective path.

I brotest

(burn USA flag, McDonalds and Parsuramji's beard)

I brotest ebil-indutvavadi parsuram clubbing learned and pious Dipankarji and A_Guptaji with an unwashed deracinated, hate-mongering, cow-worshipping kafir like me.

May 786 warnings and 72 bans pee upon you!

Pattom · Post by **Pattom** » 13 Dec 2011 18:25

Walk organized to celebrate Pak-China friendship

God! If I were a chinaman (heaven forbid!!!), I'd be embarrassed at the way these sycophants are carrying on. I'm sure pakis give good head, too.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 13 Dec 2011 19:01

But at the same time, PakBeggars are complaining that taller and deeper friends are not taller and deeper enough:

Bhasha Dam project --
China links $3-4b loan with major components purchase

Islamabad—China has linked its financial assistance of $ 3-4 billion for $ 11.3 billion Diamer-Bhasha dam with 100 percent contracts of major components of the huge and strategic project, a senior official at Ministry of Water and Power told Pakistan Observer.

Beijing has also come up with another condition that the credit will be in Chinese currency, China also indicated that it would also get the repayment of loan in Chinese currency. “This means that China will not extend loans in US dollars to Pakistan.”

The official said, the World Bank is still refusing to give any credit line to Pakistan for the said mega project arguing that site of Diamer-Bhasha dam is in the disputed area. The WB has subscribed to the view point of India as New Delhi is opposing the project at various platforms of the International financial Institutions saying that dam is being constructed in the disputed area.

http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=129799

Upendra · Post by **Upendra** » 13 Dec 2011 19:05

Coincidence????

Belgian honour killing: Pakistani family sentenced to prison
http://tribune.com.pk/story/305893/belg ... to-prison/

A Pakistani family of four went on trial for the "honour killing" of their 20-year-old child and sister.

One dead in grenade attack at Belgian city courthouse
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/ ... 23/1/.html

BRUSSELS: At least one person was killed and a number of others wounded on Tuesday when up to four grenades exploded outside the main courthouse in the eastern Belgian city of Liege, media and witnesses reported.

RTL-TVI said the incident began when a man threw a grenade into the courthouse, with the Belgian press saying a further device was thrown and detonated, with gunfire being heard and police seen pursuing attackers.

Police were not immediately contactable to confirm the toll or events.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Dec 2011 19:07

Pattom wrote:Walk organized to celebrate Pak-China friendship

God! If I were a chinaman (heaven forbid!!!), I'd be embarrassed at the way these sycophants are carrying on. I'm sure pakis give good head, too.

Well they need a new massa. Now that the Khans are not very happy with the actions of the Bakies.

jrjrao · Post by **jrjrao** » 13 Dec 2011 20:15

Today's silly from Gropin' Gilly:

Pakistan wants equality in relations with Nato, Isaf: PM Gilani

We are a proud nation and we want equality in all aspects. Therefore, if US has cut $700 million in aid to us, we have also decided to cut $700 million in aid to the US and NATO.

Okay, I made up the quote, but that is only because gropin' gilly's creative brain circuits are not advanced as mine.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2011 20:30

Pattom wrote:Walk organized to celebrate Pak-China friendship

God! If I were a chinaman (heaven forbid!!!), I'd be embarrassed at the way these sycophants are carrying on. I'm sure pakis give good head, too.

Having the beggar Pakis being "equal" friends of China is hilarious. What is even more funny is to see the Chinese acting like Pakis are equal friends and giving them respect and love and not eating pork for their benefit. Does China have only beggar-losers for friends?

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 13 Dec 2011 20:41

Parashuram , my reply is in Off topic thread.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 13 Dec 2011 20:45

RajeshA wrote:RamaY ji,

I would prefer if India were to use long range highly accurate artillery system and call it normal cross-border fire. We make it so lethal that being stationed on the LoC for any Pakistani Ranger should be considered a death certificate for him. 15-20 deaths a week should be the going average. And we keep pushing all Pakistani border posts 30-40 kms away. Then we just walk in whenever we need! We push them so further back that none of their artillery firing really lands in India-controlled territory.

It should become a war without being called a war. It should just be business as usual for us - normal firing that keeps on taking place between opposing "teams". We should let the Pakistanis keep on complaining about their deaths while we consider it a minor nuisance. We tell them all the time we are ready for a ceasefire, but we keep on shelling them incessantly.

Cross-border firing which is just targeted at their border posts and checkpoints is hardly something due to which they can escalate it into a nuclear war, so they will just have to accept the pounding.

I like your style.

But seriously I've long wondered why there hasn't been any real effort to increase the PA's "cost of living" on the border. I suspect it may have something to do with PA counter-battery radar systems. Anytime our guns engage in sustained firing, they Pakis can zero in on their location and blast them with accurate artillery fire. This was a major problem during the Kargil fighting, from what I've read. Any Indian artillery operating within range of Paki guns had to constantly "shoot and scoot" to avoid being hit, and we lacked counter-battery radars of our own, giving the Pakis an advantage. Things may have changed since then.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 13 Dec 2011 20:47

Pakistan: Karachi police free chained students

We hear about organ farms, but this one has shocked the world.Suicide bomber farm! Please read in detail at this site http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16157177