Indian Military Aviation

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 13 Dec 2011 05:14

All of the known issues of the MiG-29, poor fuel fraction, poor MMI, poor situational awareness due to pilot having too much workload in the cockpit, and possibly a lack of a true BVR weapon like the R-77 (aside from Harry's claim that IAF Fulcrums were capable of firing R-77s, never seen it) are resolved with this upgrade. And it gives it a current generation radar and a truly capable BVR weapon, the R-77 aside from a range of weapons that previously Fulcrum pilots didn't ever need to train on.

My chaiwallah gave me a mind-blowingingly cool photo of a fully armed IAF MiG-29 (4xR-73 + 2xR-77) that is my desktop wallpaper. However, since he gave me no explicit permission, I'm going to assume that I'm not at liberty to share.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Dec 2011 07:51

Raman wrote: My chaiwallah gave me a mind-blowingingly cool photo of a fully armed IAF MiG-29 (4xR-73 + 2xR-77) that is my desktop wallpaper. However, since he gave me no explicit permission, I'm going to assume that I'm not at liberty to share.

sure its not R-27s instead of R-77s ?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Dec 2011 08:35

Air chief’s MiG claim flies in face of facts

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Dec 2011 14:16

^^ Another one goes down:

14:10 Fighter plane crash near Pune, pilots eject to safety: Just in: A fighter plane has crashed at Vadebolai near Pune. Both pilots have ejected to safety. Details awaited.

Sounds like a *gulp* Rambha.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 13 Dec 2011 14:18

@ sum it is :/

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 13 Dec 2011 14:22

News confirmed

IAF’s Sukhoi 30 MKI crashes near Pune , Both Pilot eject safely

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Dec 2011 14:42

Raman wrote:My chaiwallah gave me a mind-blowingingly cool photo of a fully armed IAF MiG-29 (4xR-73 + 2xR-77) that is my desktop wallpaper. However, since he gave me no explicit permission, I'm going to assume that I'm not at liberty to share.

My chaiwakkah does not even give me a phota of the cup of tea

YOU LUCKY &^@%#$%, $@#$%^*^, (*%^!@#$$ AND ALSO #%#@!@##$%^%

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Dec 2011 14:44

Kartik,Abhi,guys,there is a Dec. DTI article on "Enemy in sight",the new silent revolution in combat sensors,which in the words of a Boeing intl. mktg.director,"will make IRST the AESA of the next decade".

In brief,US manufacturers touted the F-22 and F-35 as beinf unmatched in air combat because of their stealth capabilities,but ananlsysts are still determining whether UK EFs detected F -22s using IRST when they made a visit to the UK last year.Very low radar (RF) emissions are used by AESA radars for detection and even Swedish Viggens used to share EW and detect targets using triangulation.An alternative hypothesis is being made out by the US's competitors,that other sensors notably IRST gain importance.
In fighter-vs-fighter scenarios,the (RF) battle is a draw".

IRST has been around for years on Soviet fighters like MIGs and Sukhois,only ow being fitted to EFs.These give a 100km range at med. alt.,according to one EU presentation and in line with Russian statements.It is in use onn Gripens,SH (Intl. versions),J-10Bs and is being retrofitted to US F-19SHs.

Selex is working ion a Grifo radar technique,"hitting a target with a single wide-band pulse
and anlysing return distortions due toi agle change as the target and transmitter move."
Aircraft types will be recognised by dimensions and hot spots and a library oif types is being created.

Analysts now feel that LO (low observable ) characteristics "somewhat unexpectedly lead to more close-in combat".Thuis should give our fighters with TVC especially an edge in such close-combat scenarios and if the LCA is also fitted with a good IRST sensor and perhaps a TVC engine in later avatars,would make it a very formidable dogfighter.

PS:Most unfortunate about the Sukhoi.Fortunate indeed that both pilots are safe.Could it have been due to bird strike? The spread of cities close to air bases such as Pune,and the increase in birds due to the huge amnts of garbage around uncollected,is endangering the safety of air operations.Despite this fact being known for well over a decade,very little has been done by the MOD/local govts. to stop the spread of such settlements.Moving out air bases to new locations is prohibitively costly and a sanitised zone of a few KM should be maitained to ensure eaircraft safety/security esp. from bird strikes.Even at air shows at Yelahanka,far out of town,one sees birds a-plenty being shot by special sharpshooters while the show is on.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 13 Dec 2011 14:45

Raman garu forgot to add "in my dreams"

VinayG · Post by **VinayG** » 13 Dec 2011 16:15

karan_mc wrote:News confirmed

IAF’s Sukhoi 30 MKI crashes near Pune , Both Pilot eject safely

I WONDER DOES THIS HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH HAL MANUFACTURED ONES

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 13 Dec 2011 16:50

ohhh no! say it ain't so... I hope it is still under warranty and we can get on to replace it pronto. I am hoping this is a bird strike on one of the earlier Russian built ones. I hope HAL built ones have no quality related issues. glad the pilots got away.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 13 Dec 2011 17:12

HAL has the ability to screw any plane

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Dec 2011 17:34

can we stop this moaning and unfounded rumour mongering please? its not as if TFTA F-22's made with love and care in atlanta or EF's in germany have not crashed.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 13 Dec 2011 17:37

VinayG / Septimus / karan_mc

Allow me the liberty to extrapolate what you guys are doing based on earlier posts :

karan_mc wrote:HAL is just happy to assemble aircraft , great examples are Hawks and MKI , they have failed to enter any aircraft in production in time , biggest example his their own product IJT Sitara

[Your assumption] HAL built planes are bad quality-wise.
[Your assumption] HAL has historically built bad quality planes
[Your assumption] HAL built Rambha is most likely to be the one that crashed.
[Your assumption] HAL will forever screw any plane

[My assumption] You have studied at HAL School/worked at HAL and know HAL in detail - this gives you the liberty to talk about HAL with impunity.
[My assumption] If HAL can screw planes up, it is also possible that it can screw any person up

Inference: You guys are screw ups.

Adding some smileys for no reason

No offence intended! Maybe intended partly. Dunno . I live near HAL in BAngalore. They inductively screwed me up!
That is the reason for this whole screw up.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 13 Dec 2011 17:47

@Neela , MY Assumption : if you know HAL so so well , then please clarify on my earlier post , rather then resorting to personnel attacks . u living near HAL makes you expert on HAL ???

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2011 17:52

Singha wrote:can we stop this moaning and unfounded rumour mongering please? its not as if TFTA F-22's made with love and care in atlanta or EF's in germany have not crashed.

Singha this is a topic for that "youknowwhat" thread in the burqa forum. Indians instantly revert to start blaming their own kind. The old sense of inadequacy and inferiority of Indian things comes gushing out like tears from jilted lover from Indians the minute they read something that bothers them.

It makes it easier to accept bad news if you first say that Indian stuff is no good anyway. It is OK on the forum- but it extends to Indian industry and I am sure these attitudes exist in the armed forces as well. It is a serious Indian disease.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 13 Dec 2011 17:54

For those who like to complain that IAF has been having too many crashes, just look at our neighbour.It is just that we don't get to read their news as much as we read ours.Read about PAF crashes below.Though the report is not current, it still shows,we are not the ones with the worst record of Air crashes.Another point,one must thank the Sukhoi design that the pilots are safe, no ejection failures.
http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/ayaz1.html

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 13 Dec 2011 17:57

we even don't know if HAL made this plane or not. Why we are criticising a desi firm???

We are not happy with HAL/DRDO...
- if they does nothing
- If they try to do something
- they encounter failures while doing something
- successful in making something, it is not gold plated

for GOD sake please give them a chance and break

Added later: People should move to china ... you will hear only good news there is nothing bad, everything will be gold plated.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 13 Dec 2011 18:12

RKumar wrote:People should move to china ... you will hear only good news there is nothing bad, everything will be gold plated.

RKumarji, Way to put it..
Shivji, you are the resident piskological expert.. What do you suggest as possible treatment.. may be we can do a clinical trial on the above cases and find out why we jump to these conclusions..

chandanus · Post by **chandanus** » 13 Dec 2011 18:27

Neela wrote:VinayG / Septimus / karan_mc

Allow me the liberty to extrapolate what you guys are doing based on earlier posts :

karan_mc wrote:HAL is just happy to assemble aircraft , great examples are Hawks and MKI , they have failed to enter any aircraft in production in time , biggest example his their own product IJT Sitara
[Your assumption] HAL built planes are bad quality-wise.
[Your assumption] HAL has historically built bad quality planes
[Your assumption] HAL built Rambha is most likely to be the one that crashed.
[Your assumption] HAL will forever screw any plane

[My assumption] You have studied at HAL School/worked at HAL and know HAL in detail - this gives you the liberty to talk about HAL with impunity.
[My assumption] If HAL can screw planes up, it is also possible that it can screw any person up

Inference: You guys are screw ups.

Adding some smileys for no reason

No offence intended! Maybe intended partly. Dunno . I live near HAL in BAngalore. They inductively screwed me up!
That is the reason for this whole screw up.

Agree .100% !!!

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Dec 2011 18:31

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:can we stop this moaning and unfounded rumour mongering please? its not as if TFTA F-22's made with love and care in atlanta or EF's in germany have not crashed.
Singha this is a topic for that "youknowwhat" thread in the burqa forum. Indians instantly revert to start blaming their own kind. The old sense of inadequacy and inferiority of Indian things comes gushing out like tears from jilted lover from Indians the minute they read something that bothers them.

It makes it easier to accept bad news if you first say that Indian stuff is no good anyway. It is OK on the forum- but it extends to Indian industry and I am sure these attitudes exist in the armed forces as well. It is a serious Indian disease.

DR Shiv, Do you have a cure for this virulent disease ??

K

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Dec 2011 18:47

Bala Vignesh wrote:
RKumar wrote:People should move to china ... you will hear only good news there is nothing bad, everything will be gold plated.
RKumarji, Way to put it..
Shivji, you are the resident piskological expert.. What do you suggest as possible treatment.. may be we can do a clinical trial on the above cases and find out why we jump to these conclusions..

My OT reply here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1210884

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 13 Dec 2011 18:52

^yes Kersi. One should move to China where only good news is heard or to USA/EU where even bad news is spun into good news.

The environment in India is most fertile for the development and spread of this virus since only bad news is present here

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 13 Dec 2011 19:02

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:can we stop this moaning and unfounded rumour mongering please? its not as if TFTA F-22's made with love and care in atlanta or EF's in germany have not crashed.
Singha this is a topic for that "youknowwhat" thread in the burqa forum. Indians instantly revert to start blaming their own kind. The old sense of inadequacy and inferiority of Indian things comes gushing out like tears from jilted lover from Indians the minute they read something that bothers them.

It makes it easier to accept bad news if you first say that Indian stuff is no good anyway. It is OK on the forum- but it extends to Indian industry and I am sure these attitudes exist in the armed forces as well. It is a serious Indian disease.

Dr. Saheb,

There are two other things that run deep in "us".
- Sukhoi is a Russian product ( high quality) and Indians are just assembly guys / technicians with no qualifications required to put it together
- Indians are doing the menial work here and they do not seem to get even the assembly work done correctly.

But wait it does not end there: the same menial assembly work, when written by the Japanese and titled "Just in time assembly" is hailed as a breakthrough in production despite it being banal common sense

See ?
dark brown Indians doing same work = Menial.
Japs/European doing the same work = Fantafabulistic.

The challenge for "us" is to dis-assemble a Hero cycle and assemble it again! I bet my prized F***skin "we" will struggle.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 Dec 2011 21:22

Marut wrote:^yes Kersi. One should move to China where only good news is heard or to USA/EU where even bad news is spun into good news.
(

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 13 Dec 2011 23:02

Kartik wrote:
Raman wrote: My chaiwallah gave me a mind-blowingingly cool photo of a fully armed IAF MiG-29 (4xR-73 + 2xR-77) that is my desktop wallpaper. However, since he gave me no explicit permission, I'm going to assume that I'm not at liberty to share.
sure its not R-27s instead of R-77s ?

@kersi D saab here is one with r-27s and 73s

@ Raman plz do post it ...

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 13 Dec 2011 23:47

looks like r60 instead of r73

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Dec 2011 23:51

definitely R-60.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 13 Dec 2011 23:58

Ah ... my bad ... on closer inspection, it is indeed R-27 and not R-77.

Sorry for the KLPD.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Dec 2011 05:51

R-60/R-27 combo MiG 29 photos are numerous. But R-27 is BVR.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 14 Dec 2011 08:19

3rd Sukhoi crash, old problem suspected

‘Old aircraft, not pilots’ inexperience, behind MiG crashes’

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 Dec 2011 11:49

Interesting article on the Apache Block III and its capability to download target information from an UAV to its ballistic computer, which will allow it to target it. This will be a very handy capability for the IAF, and something that I'm sure they'll want on the LCH at some stage as well. This is all due to a UTA (UAS Tactical Common datalink Assembly). This will mean that a UAV can be sent ahead of the Apaches and give the Apache crews good situational awareness of what lies ahead, by viewing the UAV's sensor data.

DST Zinio reader

Go to page 27 to read in detail.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 14 Dec 2011 12:10

Somehow i have gut feeling that UAV would replace the point defense fighter. If we can make a UAV which loiters with less fuel consumption and can launch missile. (My understanding is a fighter package can carry 20 air-air missile.)

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 14 Dec 2011 17:23

IAF prefers Swiss trainer jet PC-7 over Korean KT-1

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 14 Dec 2011 19:02

IMO, the IAF is under going massive amount of transformation and flux, something akin to the exapnsion after 1962. And there are certain inherent risks associated with this.

As we speak, more and more pilots are converting to SU-30MKI. Many of these pilots are with >400hrs of flying on their original a/c type. And they do bring with them a certain baggage. MKI represents a phenomenal shift in a/c flying for the IAF. As someone tld me, it is more about mission management than flying. The a/c flies itself. The real task is to derive the maximum from its potential. And from what I've been given to understand, even these seasoned pilots need time to become accustomed to MKI. Something which showed itself in the Red Flag - where otherwise experienced pilots (on other fighter types) were not fully able to exploit the potential of MKI and made mistakes.

From what I understand, the best placed are rookies who graduate from Hawks to MKI. Hawks have given a quantum leap in the training to the rookie pilots - something which was missing in the good old 21s.

And with advent of MMRCA and Tejas, this flux will become stronger. You'll have a large part of IAF Fighter Pilots migrating from older gen a/c to latest and the best out there. The training and conversion regime needs to be handled very carefully.

A conflict in this state of flux will place tremendous demands on its fighter pilots. IMO, IAF will require time till 2017-2018 to fully settle down and institutionalize all the new technology it is inducting.

Just check the Pilatus PC-7 MK2 cockpit here -
http://www.saairforce.co.za/seed/public ... _large.jpg

This little baby has a cockpit which 60% of the IAF's combat fleet does not have. In terms of training regiment, the future pilots will graduate from Pilatus to IJT to Hawk and then particular aircraft type. In between you'll have the simulators for each stage to groom them still better.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Dec 2011 10:26

Rohit,you're spot on with the Pilatus.A year or so ago,Flight had a feature on the latest Pilatus trainer,flown by its editor.It was rated the best lead-in trainer of the lot.The aircraft is so good that according to the article,rookie pilots could even leapfrog an IJT and go straight onto combat jets after training on the Pilatus,whose controls could be configured to suit the next type of aircraft to be flown.It augurs well for the IAF to have both the Pilatus and Hawk to train on.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Dec 2011 17:55

makes a good read, only PVC from IAF.

The Flying Hero of the 1971 War

arthuro · Post by **arthuro** » 17 Dec 2011 14:11

nice set of in cockpit pictures here : (M2K-5)

http://www.foxalpha.com/forums/viewtopi ... start=1275

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 17 Dec 2011 20:28

Philip wrote:The aircraft is so good that according to the article,rookie pilots could even leapfrog an IJT and go straight onto combat jets after training on the Pilatus,.

Wonder if the air force will stick to the 4 stage syllabus in future? Pilatus => IJT1 => IJT2 => Hawk? I think the HAL Sitara may just become redundant.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Dec 2011 20:50

Aditya G wrote:
Philip wrote:The aircraft is so good that according to the article,rookie pilots could even leapfrog an IJT and go straight onto combat jets after training on the Pilatus,.
Wonder if the air force will stick to the 4 stage syllabus in future? Pilatus => IJT1 => IJT2 => Hawk? I think the HAL Sitara may just become redundant.

Anyone who is selling an aircraft would love to push its capability to dream levels. Flight Magazine's editor has been lifafaed by Pilatus. This is not to say the aircraft is not good. But saying that Sitara will become redundant on the basis of a one-line post quoting someone in some magazine saying something is a bit of a stretch.