Indian Military Aviation

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Dec 2011 22:02

lets not get ahead of ourselves

It should be Pilatus to IJT to Hawk

there is a lot of learning before one gets to the least sophisticated combat jets of today

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 17 Dec 2011 23:34

^^^True. But what I recently learned is that Hawks represent a truly phenomenal capability (relative to one available earlier) when it comes to training the pilots. Things like recording of HUD from the flight to plotting the entire sequence of BFM sorties on wide plasma screens to fully evaluate and debate the the training regime has brought about hell lot of changes. Pilatus and IJT will simply add to that. IJT is for replacing the Kiran Mk1 level of training. Pilatus will ensure that the transition from propellor a/c to jet a/c will be smooth.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Dec 2011 00:34

shiv wrote:
Philip wrote:The aircraft is so good that according to the article,rookie pilots could even leapfrog an IJT and go straight onto combat jets after training on the Pilatus,.
Anyone who is selling an aircraft would love to push its capability to dream levels. Flight Magazine's editor has been lifafaed by Pilatus. This is not to say the aircraft is not good. But saying that Sitara will become redundant on the basis of a one-line post quoting someone in some magazine saying something is a bit of a stretch.

And to add to that, AND just to be sure, the IAF was offered the most basic trainer that Pilatus has. Pilatus has two more advanced trainers that the IAF will not get. Some 21 air forces use these. The top-of-the-line trainer is used by 3 air forces - so far.

No was IAF will allow rookie pilot to "leapfrog" anything.

pragnya · Post by **pragnya** » 18 Dec 2011 19:07

per HAL link

HTT 40 Basic/ Primary aerobatic trainer aircraft to meet the Stage-I (ab-initio) training needs. The aircraft will employ classical straight tapered wing platform and all metal construction. The seating is tandem and cockpit will be air conditioned and pressurized. Zero-Zero ejection seat will be provided in each of the cockpit. The aircraft will be configured around a proven turboprop engine and will have retractable undercarriage. Flight controls will be manual. Avionics system would comprise glass cockpit with modern avionic suite

in the light of selection of Pilatus does it have any relevance??

vic · Post by **vic** » 18 Dec 2011 19:42

I think that India should work on a modern turboprop engine series for its HTT-40 series, Saras series etc. We can start from reverse engineering Garett being used in Dornier.

Also I was wondering that Htt-40 and IJT would be suitable for light CAS and support to trooops in mountain terrain?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Dec 2011 20:50

pilots not have to be system managers and decision makers, not just pilots... you need them to get up the learning curve much faster

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Dec 2011 23:07

NRao wrote:
shiv wrote:quote="Philip"]The aircraft is so good that according to the article,rookie pilots could even leapfrog an IJT and go straight onto combat jets after training on the Pilatus,.[/quote

Anyone who is selling an aircraft would love to push its capability to dream levels. Flight Magazine's editor has been lifafaed by Pilatus. This is not to say the aircraft is not good. But saying that Sitara will become redundant on the basis of a one-line post quoting someone in some magazine saying something is a bit of a stretch.
And to add to that, AND just to be sure, the IAF was offered the most basic trainer that Pilatus has. Pilatus has two more advanced trainers that the IAF will not get. Some 21 air forces use these. The top-of-the-line trainer is used by 3 air forces - so far.

No was IAF will allow rookie pilot to "leapfrog" anything.

I thought the IAF is getting the latest model PC-21?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Dec 2011 23:46

srai wrote: I thought the IAF is getting the latest model PC-21?

no, they offered the PC-7 MkII not the latest PC-21, which is quite a bit costlier. Had they offered that, it would've lost and the IAF would've had to go with the KT-1 Woong Bee. the IAF wouldn't be able to justify spending much more on the PC-21 when the PC-7 MkII would meet all its requirements.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 19 Dec 2011 00:09

I am led to understand that the KT-1 package was about 7 per cent more expensive. But that the IAF found it less versatile than the Pilatus.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 Dec 2011 03:59

Kartik wrote:
srai wrote: I thought the IAF is getting the latest model PC-21?
no, they offered the PC-7 MkII not the latest PC-21, which is quite a bit costlier. Had they offered that, it would've lost and the IAF would've had to go with the KT-1 Woong Bee. the IAF wouldn't be able to justify spending much more on the PC-21 when the PC-7 MkII would meet all its requirements.

Ah ok. IAF just wanted a Stage 1 trainer with the PC-7 MkII.

It seems PC-21 is designed for airforces with limited budget to meet Stage 1 and partial Stage 2 training. From there the AJT would take over for Stage 2B and Stage 3 training. So with PC-21, no IJT would be required for Stage 2.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Dec 2011 20:17

Four Pratt & Whitney Engines ordered for Indian Air Force C-17 Globemaster III's

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 19 Dec 2011 22:31

Rupak wrote:I am led to understand that the KT-1 package was about 7 per cent more expensive. But that the IAF found it less versatile than the Pilatus.

has the pc 7 mk2 been chosen ?

abhinavjo · Post by **abhinavjo** » 20 Dec 2011 02:32

Cybaru wrote:
Rupak wrote:I am led to understand that the KT-1 package was about 7 per cent more expensive. But that the IAF found it less versatile than the Pilatus.
has the pc 7 mk2 been chosen ?

Yep

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/fi ... iners.html

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 20 Dec 2011 07:24

WOW.. where have I been.. Thanks abhinavjo..

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 20 Dec 2011 10:28

HSDTV developments on tarmak

Nice set of pictures and writeup on the HSDTV program. Need to be read there and the pics are all there to see. On a side-note bhat ij thij workshop it ij so dirty

Eggjperts like Vina mullah to comment

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 20 Dec 2011 21:45

IAF practices a long range Special Forces deployment to Andamans - Broadsword

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 20 Dec 2011 22:25

Quite hard to believe they did Hindon-Campbell Bay-Hindon without a top-up from an IL-78MKI over Agra (still too much of a stretch) or Kalaikunda (possible).

The open source listed range of the C-130J is ~ 2,900 nmi. Add 10% to that and still you fall short. This is not accounting for headwinds and reserve fuel.

The DefPRO was I guess as usual over-exuberant. I think he has turned a 'no landing enroute' to 'no refuelling'.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 20 Dec 2011 23:01

Kakarat wrote:IAF practices a long range Special Forces deployment to Andamans - Broadsword

Planning revealed that the objective was about 3500 Nautical Miles away. The route was via Kolkata and Port Blair to the simulated Drop Zone over Campbell Bay in Great Nicobar Islands. The round trip would require a staggering 12 hours of flying time.

Distance as crow flies (for comparison):

Delhi - Port Blair: 2480 Km

Delhi - Mogadishu: 4474 Km

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 21 Dec 2011 07:23

That's a good exercise!! How many of C-130J do we have? I thought it was a future delivery.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Dec 2011 07:37

the quoted range of 5250km might be with some payload. here it was flying empty. its unclear if our SF pkg purchased (semi MC130J std) included provision for extra internal fuel tanks to extend range. the star safire-III EO pkg is the same one US supplied to the pakis on one of their C-130

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 21 Dec 2011 09:38

@Singha

Yup they must must have auxiliary internal fuel bladders. You wouldn't do over-water-flights without adequate reserves.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Dec 2011 16:56

Crash-hit Sukhois get IAF chief's thumbs up

I guess for DDM , it is better if aircraft are kept in hangers and never crash.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Dec 2011 18:00

it seems right from Eagle Claw onwards some of the MC-130 models had capacity to mount internal collapsible rubber bladders / tanks on cargo hold floor rails with associated hoses and aux pumps. the idea was to refuel helicopters in FARPs or sometimes to give AAR to MH53.....internally it has 21t and external fixed wing tanks another 8t + whatever bladders.

very tricky op this one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2W1jh8jLOM

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 21 Dec 2011 18:39

Aditya_V wrote:Crash-hit Sukhois get IAF chief's thumbs up

I guess for DDM , it is better if aircraft are kept in hangers and never crash.

I have read even the modernised Su-27SM have crashed in Russia and they ground the fleet routinely pending investigation an SOP.

I doubt there is any thing fundamentally flawed in FBW flanker considering the Chinese ,Malaysian , Russian ,Vietnam ,Malaysian etc fly the similar FBW flanker , unless there is any thing unique about MKI which i doubt. Well lets see what they find out from the latest crash and if they make it public.

manum · Post by **manum** » 21 Dec 2011 20:43

is it like flying for certain period of time the error is occuring? are the crashes happening in fighters manufactured in similar period of time, or sourced from same place....any info?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 13:10

a white n grey Tejas nose CABS HS748 wheeled low over my office today , headed due south-east.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Dec 2011 14:01

A BAE Hawk 200.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1225186889
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1226649300

Can our hawks be modified to carry out a similar payload during wartime?

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 22 Dec 2011 14:03

@Singha

I thought the 'Hack' must be retired since they went with the Israeli radar for the Tejas.

Will watch out for it over my farm now. All the HAL test craft and IAF aircraft from Yelahanka do their flying over my farm near Kanakapura.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 14:12

koti wrote:A BAE Hawk 200.
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1225186889
http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachme ... 1226649300

Can our hawks be modified to carry out a similar payload during wartime?

The 200 is single seat and has that bulbous nose for a radar. Without that radar many of its air to air weapons will not work.

koti · Post by **koti** » 22 Dec 2011 14:25

Does that mean IAF Hawks are useless for wartime conversion into point defense type AC.
Aren't there any pods(IRST maybe) that can help address the nose size handicap of our birds?
Our Bisons also have a similar dimensioned nosecone rite?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 14:38

Hawk is not good enough for any a2a role in our environment....it might be ok for low level african/s.american bush wars but not here.

at best it can be used in a env of complete air superiority as a CAS a/c (bombs, rockets, gun pods) after fitting with suitable CMDS....ie it might be useful to attack bangladesh or SL someday

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Dec 2011 14:39

we have enough fighters and do not need for hawks for point defence. at most they will be used for CAS.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 22 Dec 2011 14:42

Koti, don't you think wartime, especially long wars, would need more training needs to replace injured/dead pilots. Hence training would be more paramount. Hence diversion of scarce training resource to do CAP might hinder overall pilot replacement.
Moreover, there are dedicated aircrafts in the IAF who's job is to provide the point defense. They are the first line of defense if they have taken a hit in big numbers then expecting the secondary aircrafts like Hawk's would stop the enemy is a little too much.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 14:45

koti wrote:Does that mean IAF Hawks are useless for wartime conversion into point defense type AC.
Aren't there any pods(IRST maybe) that can help address the nose size handicap of our birds?

Saar it can be used in the light attack role. With local air dominance it could do a Longewala re run if necessary.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Dec 2011 14:57

a four-ship hawk flight operating with a pair of Mig29's or M2K's in point defence mode could be feasible - assuming we have some level of data transfer. the big birds can handle the BVR and targeting, the little birds can cover off exits with WVR

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Dec 2011 15:08

these hitech:lotech concepts are very risky to use in practice because when a fight erupts you cannot count on the hi assets to always cover up the rear of the lo. ideally all assets must be beyond a certain capability level to look after their own backsides.

a bandar should be handily able to trounce a hawk under most circumstances.

we are better off investing in good SAMs like spyder and akash for point defence than a bunch of hawks imo.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 22 Dec 2011 19:06

Singha wrote:a white n grey Tejas nose CABS HS748 wheeled low over my office today , headed due south-east.

It must be trying to pick you up and whisk you away on a secret hush hush mission near the bad lands of Pak Afg border.

All the Best

K

Abhibhushan · Post by **Abhibhushan** » 22 Dec 2011 20:09

shiv wrote:
koti wrote:Does that mean IAF Hawks are useless for wartime conversion into point defense type AC.
Aren't there any pods(IRST maybe) that can help address the nose size handicap of our birds?
Saar it can be used in the light attack role. With local air dominance it could do a Longewala re run if necessary.

We did use the Vampire in night attack role successfully in 1971

In a new development, a detachment of Vampires from FTW flew into Halwara for night interdiction under command of my friend and course mate Wing Commander WH Marshal. This was a new idea that came about from the success of the sparrow mission over the last four days. The idea was to prevent movement along the railway line even by night.

The Vampires got into action in the early hours of the 9th. These ancient aircraft had no navigational aids what so ever. Even their clocks were so small that it was a strain to read off the correct time. These Vampires therefore were modified to carry a large dial Russian Clock and Its own accurate G4F gyrosyn compass. Its most valuable component was the very experienced pilots from the FTW. These pilots, very much like the Su7 and MiG21 pilots from the nascent Tactical Air Combat Development Unit (commonly known as Mally/Mukho circus) could fly an aircraft at low level by night so accurately that they invariably reached their targets more than two hundred kilometres away with an accuracy of less than a hundred meters. On a moonlit night, that was good enough to press home a very good lay-down attack. Not withstanding the ability of the pilots, these Vampires were very poorly equipped. Apart from a total lack of navigational aids, even its RT communication was temperamental. Marshall therefore worked out procedures by which I could identify their movement track without any RT natter and I could then give out directional information to them from their ground positions as ascertained by my sensors within my defended zone.
The first attack y the Vampires was flown by by Marshall himself just after midnight and he blasted Khudian Railway station with an accurate salvo of T-10 rockets followed by a burst of 20 mm cannon fire.

Just look up

http://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/05/2 ... -the-west/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Dec 2011 20:17

That really should be a hyperlink so:
http://tkstales.wordpress.com/2010/05/2 ... -the-west/

There is stuff in there that has a bearing on whether or not the future will e all UCAVs.

No. It won't be IMO for the very reason that Abhibhushan says in his blog

These pilots, very much like the Su7 and MiG21 pilots from the nascent Tactical Air Combat Development Unit (commonly known as Mally/Mukho circus) could fly an aircraft at low level by night so accurately that they invariably reached their targets more than two hundred kilometres away with an accuracy of less than a hundred meters

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Dec 2011 08:04

I have with me the latest issue of Vayu Aerospace and there is an article by a naval aviator who speaks of the HF-24 that he trained on for fast jet flying before going to the UK for Harrier conversion. I am certain the HF-24 was rejected for the same reasons of self hate - hatred of Indian things and considering them inferior to western stuff that has infected Indian minds for decades - and extends into the polity and armed forces as much as it infects BRF.

I quote from "Marut Memories" Commander Bagicha S Hothi (retd)
VAYU Aeospace Review VI 2100

He goes to join no 31 squadron (IAF) in Jodhpur for flying Maruts

"We had plenty of aircraft in the squadron, but not much enthusiasm to fly, perhaps because the HF-24 Marut was to be phased out of service in a sort while"

"The HF-24 Marut was very steady in the dive and in fact one could trim the aircraft and leave the stick, the gun sight would not move from its intended target"

"It turned out that all my rockets (over four days) were within eight yards of the center of the target. I had also put nine out of eleven cannon rounds on the target <snip> These were by far the best results of mine in weapons delivery and that too with the Marut.

I was both happy but also sad that this magnificent machine despite its low power engines was to be scrapped prematurely. The Marut was capable of clocking 420 knots (nearly 800 kph) at low level even on a single engine. Escorting MiG 21 could not catch up at low level when Marut was cruising on both engines, but instead had to pursue her at medium level and then dive to catch up. The Marut was a perfect weapons delivery platform at low level yet she was being phased out like an unwanted child"

And now the sucker punch

"I cannot end this narrative without relating an incident during one of our farewell functions in the UK. An elderly gentleman from British Aerospace asked whether the Marut was still operational. He touched a sensitive nerve in me and sensed it! He went on to say that if the Marut had succeeded in getting better engines theer would have been little possibility for the sale of Jaguars to the IAF"

Now let us all curse the loser veggie surrender monkeys working on the Kaveri for their pathetic ineptitude.