Indian Naval Discussion

[Roperia]

India to make a big step towards N-arm triad in Feb and achieve it in next

India will take a big step towards achieving a credible nuclear weapon triad in February when its first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant begins sea trials off Visakhapatnam.

Top defence ministry sources say the "sea-acceptance trials'' (SATS) of INS Arihant are slated to begin "towards end-February'' after the completion of its ongoing harbour-acceptance trials (HATS). "It will take at least six months of extensive SATS and missile trials before the boat is ready for commissioning into Navy,'' said a source.

With INS Arihant's induction, India for the first time will brandish the most effective third leg of the nuclear triad - the ability to fire nukes from land, air and sea. The first two legs revolve around the Agni family of ballistic missiles and fighters like Sukhoi-30MKIs and Mirage-2000s jury-rigged to deliver nuclear warheads. Only the Big-5 has nuclear triads till now, with a total of over 140 nuclear-powered submarines. America leads the pack with 71, followed by Russia with about 40, while China, the UK and France have around 10-12 each. India did get delivery of INS Chakra, the rechristened Akula-II nuclear-powered submarine 'K-152 Nerpa', from Russia on a 10-year lease last week. But while it will bolster the country's underwater firepower, it's not armed with nuclear-tipped missiles due to international treatises.

India's nuclear triad will be in place, as Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma has declared, once INS Arihant is out at sea on "deterrent patrols''. It has been a long journey for INS Arihant since it was "launched'' at Vizag in July, 2009, with PM Manmohan Singh himself in attendance.

Each and every sub-system was checked and re-checked, along with high-pressure steam trials of all the pipelines, before the miniature 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor, fitted in a containment vessel on board the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, went "critical'' last year, said sources.

"HATS followed thereafter. Now, things are on track for SATS to begin in end-February,'' said the source. Simultaneously, fabrication work on the three follow-on SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear ballistic missiles), dubbed S-2, S-3 and S-4, is in full swing under the over Rs 30,000-crore advanced technology vessel programme. The second SSBN after INS Arihant is to be named INS Aridhaman, both of which loosely mean "potent destroyer of enemies''. They are to be armed first with the 750-km K-15 and at a later stage with the under-development 3,500-km K-4 SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles). INS Arihant has four silos on its hump to carry either 12 K-15s or four K-4s.

Navy wants to have three SSBNs and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines) in the long term, as reported by TOI earlier. The force is grappling with a depleting conventional underwater arm, down to only 14 ageing diesel-electric submarines.

Nuclear-powered submarines can silently stay underwater for months at end, unlike conventional ones that have to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. India with a clear "no-first use'' nuclear doctrine needs survivable second-strike capability riding on SSBNs to ensure credible deterrence.

India to achieve N-arm triad in February - The Times of India

[krishnan]

From the above link....

Each and every sub-system was checked and re-checked, along with high-pressure steam trials of all the pipelines, before the miniature 83 MW pressurized light-water reactor, fitted in a containment vessel on board the over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant, went "critical'' last year, said sources.

"HATS followed thereafter. Now, things are on track for SATS to begin in end-February,'' said the source. Simultaneously, fabrication work on the three follow-on SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear ballistic missiles), dubbed S-2, S-3 and S-4, is in full swing under the over Rs 30,000-crore advanced technology vessel programme. The second SSBN after INS Arihant is to be named INS Aridhaman, both of which loosely mean "potent destroyer of enemies''. They are to be armed first with the 750-km K-15 and at a later stage with the under-development 3,500-km K-4 SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles). INS Arihant has four silos on its hump to carry either 12 K-15s or four K-4s.

[Austin]

Looks like Pakistan is unhappy with the lease of Nerpa and development of Arhiant

Pak will take steps to credibility of its nuclear deterrence

Pakistan today said it will take steps to maintain the credibility of its nuclear deterrence following India's decision to acquire a Russian nuclear attack submarine on a 10-year lease. "We are looking at these developments very closely. Rest assured, there will be no compromise in terms of maintaining the credibility of our deterrence," Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said during a weekly news briefing. Basit was responding to a question about Pakistan's response to India's acquisition of an Akula-II class submarine on lease from Russia and the construction of another indigenous nuclear submarine.

[Aditya_V]

Looks like Pakistan is unhappy with the lease of Nerpa and development of Arhiant

Pak will take steps to credibility of its nuclear deterrence

Pakistan today said it will take steps to maintain the credibility of its nuclear deterrence following India's decision to acquire a Russian nuclear attack submarine on a 10-year lease. "We are looking at these developments very closely. Rest assured, there will be no compromise in terms of maintaining the credibility of our deterrence," Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said during a weekly news briefing. Basit was responding to a question about Pakistan's response to India's acquisition of an Akula-II class submarine on lease from Russia and the construction of another indigenous nuclear submarine.

WHo cares, they will always wine, this has no relevance to them anyways.

[uddu]

Corruption news
US company favoured over India in boat deal
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/us- ... -boat-deal

The Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) has flouted all procurement rules to nominate a US boat building company for the purpose of buying 150 coastal security boats. The global tender launched for this Rs 500 cr deal kept out all Indian players by introducing clauses that are difficult to be fulfilled by them. Moreover, some of the equipment requirements mentioned in the tender are not needed by the Marine Police Organisation, which will use the boats.

The Request for Proposal (that is the tender), which is on the MHA website, shows (Page 103, para 2.1.6) that the US Arneson's "surface piercing drive" has been nominated for the deal. Further, under "Routine Maintenance", the model "Arneson Drive, model ASD 14" is mentioned on page 67.

Sources say that the propulsion system mentioned in the tender is not required by the Marine Police Organisation as it will not be able to exploit and maintain such complicated equipment. Indian Navy is already facing a number of problems because of this equipment fitted on its Fast Attack Crafts. A regular fixed pitch propeller system is best suited for the Marine Police.

Another clause that keeps out Indian manufacturers is the earnest money deposit (EMD) clause in Para 2.11 of Schedule 1. It states that the EMD requirement is Rs 7.5 cr. The annual turnover requirement for the company that will get the contract is Rs 50 cr in the last three years, making it Rs 150 cr in the past three years. A source told this newspaper, "Clearly no Indian boat builder, who makes boats of this type, can qualify. In addition, the requirement of having built at least 25 boats in one year in the past three years may even disqualify public sector yards like GSL and GRSE, who have set up significant infrastructure and built the previous series of boast for the MHA (Phase-1 boats)."

All this amounts to a single vendor nomination, which as per procurement procedures of security equipment is not acceptable, and has in the past resulted in retraction of tenders.

When The Sunday Guardian contacted MHA officials, they said that the ministry had held a pre-bid conference in November, in which it sought the views of the manufacturers. These views are under consideration and if needed the RFP would be amended. The officials said that a level playing field for Indian manufacturers would be considered by introducing changes in the tender before it expires. The last date for the RFP is 16 January 2012. The MHA follows the procurement manual Directorate General of Supplies and Disposal (DGS&D), for all its purchases. 15 boat manufacturers attended the pre-bid conference in November.

According to sources, GRSE and GSL officials met Home Minister P. Chidambaram recently to say that since they had won the first contract and had delivered the boats, they should be given the second contract too.

The tender also combines the vessel order along with annual maintenance contract (AMC). AMC contracts are usually tendered out separately to service providers suited best for such jobs.

[Philip]

Scam after scam! In the Indian context,the Chinese word for "crisis" and opportunity" are supposedly the same,but in our context,the opportunity lies in fahtering one's own est at the expense of the taxpayer.Take any natural disaster,for example the tsunami,the amount of moolah spent on rehabilitation and the amount that went missing,even swindling by CSI churchmen which became an international issue! In the aftermath of 26/11,knee-jerk decisions were taken in extreme haste,with the GOI openiing its pockets for organising public PR events like the farcial parade down Marine Drive of the latest toys of the police! These toys now lie rotting and rusting and new toys from just one supplier with specs designed to keep out other bidders are on the verge of being procured.Is their any accontability for the huge loss of allowing this valuable eqpt. to end up on the scrap heap? Only a revolution will see India freee from the octopus like tentacles of our corrupt babudom and politicians.

[srai]

India to make a big step towards N-arm triad in Feb and achieve it in next

India will take a big step towards achieving a credible nuclear weapon triad in February when its first indigenous nuclear submarine INS Arihant begins sea trials off Visakhapatnam.

...

"HATS followed thereafter. Now, things are on track for SATS to begin in end-February,'' said the source. Simultaneously, fabrication work on the three follow-on SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines armed with nuclear ballistic missiles), dubbed S-2, S-3 and S-4, is in full swing under the over Rs 30,000-crore advanced technology vessel programme. The second SSBN after INS Arihant is to be named INS Aridhaman, both of which loosely mean "potent destroyer of enemies''. ...

Navy wants to have three SSBNs and six SSNs (nuclear-powered attack submarines) in the long term, as reported by TOI earlier. The force is grappling with a depleting conventional underwater arm, down to only 14 ageing diesel-electric submarines.

...

India to achieve N-arm triad in February - The Times of India

It looks like the IN's submarine fleet in 2030 looks to be the following:

• 6 x P-75 SSK -> Scorpene class
• 6 x P-75A SSK -> TBD
• 12 x P-X SSK -> indigenous design (or follow-on P-75/75A)
• 6 x S-X SSN -> indigenous design
• 5 x S-X SSBN -> ATV Arihant class

Total: 24 x SSK, 6 x SSN, 5 x SSBN => 35 submarines by 2030

Typically, one SSN is assigned for protection duties of a SSBN on deterrence deployment. With 5 x SSBNs planned, IN can deploy around 3 SSBNs on deterrence patrols regularly. This means 3 x SSNs (out of 6) would be tied to SSBN protection duties at any given time leaving only 2 to 3 SSNs available for other tasks, such as hunting enemy SSBNs and CBGs.

After 2030, it can be expected that all new submarine acquisition by the IN would be SSN or SSBN. Since the oldest of the SSKs would only be 15 years old in 2030, it can be expected that the SSKs would be in service well into 2050+.

[Philip]

SR,there appears to be only 9 N-boats to be built locally from the reports.Of these 5-6 will be SSBNs while the number of desired SSGNs is also 6.Therefore the extra N-boats will have to be acquired from abroad,like the lease of the Akula.Perhaps we may lease out another 1-2 to make up the numbers,especially as Indian sub-building,even with the well-known Russian assistance will not be able to manufacture so many N-subs in so short a time.Our ATV appears to be a basic "sub-for-all-seasons" design,a compromise that allows the basic design to be used for both SSBN and SSGN roles.The Akulas are much more sophisticated ,can dive upto 600m ,and are larger boats able to carry out missions anywhere in the Asia-Pacific or Oceania region on a normal 60-80 day patrol.Our homebuilt SSGNs can serve as escorts for our SSBNs too,in fact with their design being almost similar,from their signatures ,determining which is an SSBN or SSGN will complicate matters for the enemy.

The cost of the conventional AIP subs is a matter for concern though.The Scorpenes are just too expensive for their worth.The need is for a cost-effective AIP conventional sub.European derived subs will be far more costly than Russian derived ones and because of the JV for BMos,it is unlikely that we will see a European sub carrying the missile,which is game-changer.An Indo-Russian line could be built to replace the Kilos and I would still have both Scorpenes and U-boats to evaluate which AIP system is better and have a unique sub fleet,given that the PLAN has double the number of types in service,nuclear and non-nulear.There was in a link I posted,the agreement with Germany for the building in series of the extra U-209s and their future designs/upgrades.I don't see why this cannot be resurrected as we built only two at home.The German fuel-cell AIP systems are extensively being used,"proven" systems,and a larger sub design that could accommodate B'Mos be developed with Russia too.We should've initially examined the cost of the Scorpene contract vs that of building extra U-boats.I am sure that the German option would've been much cheaper.

[srai]

SR,there appears to be only 9 N-boats to be built locally from the reports....Our ATV appears to be a basic "sub-for-all-seasons" design,a compromise that allows the basic design to be used for both SSBN and SSGN roles....

You are right. The report states 3 x SSBNs and 6 x SSNs.

Looking at the ATV Arihant design, you are right in that it can take on a dual role SSBN/SSGN. When not in a SSBN role, it could act as a SSGN and use those VLS tubes for 12 x cruise missiles. In a SSBN mode, it would carry 4 x 3,500km nuclear ballistic missiles.

I would think the 3 x SSBN variants would be slightly larger and have more ballistic missiles carrying ability (i.e. 6-12 3,500km missiles).

[tsarkar]

Arneson Surface Drives were first procured for Super Dvora boats two decades ago. It enables operations in the shallowest of waters - Sir Creek & Sundarbans - where MHA CPOs operate.

It is a specific technology, similar to waterjets. At one point, only Rolls Royce KaMeWa manufactured reliable waterjets and all our FAC tenders specified RR KaMeWa waterjets.

Government can definitely request platforms around a specific technology. For example, it can float a tender for corvettes/frigates specifying it needs to carry BrahMos or Barak.

Now the conspiracy brigade will scream for paddle wheel steamer propulsion be given a chance!

[Austin]

As to her weapon load - anything that fits in 533mm. Russian 971 project boats are not fitted for Klub missiles and I do not expect them on Nerpa.

Thanks SNaik. I was expecting she would come with atleast Klub , else she wont have any stand off anti-ship/surface capability.

Some one told me today Nerpa will reach india by Feb

[Philip]

Austin,most reports on the Akulas say that she can carry upto 18 Klubs in a weaponload of 40.The interesting factor is whether the Akula is coming with her larger tubes also,which can accomodate std. 533mm weaonry using liners,or has the std. sized tubes alone.It would be a great pity if the larger tubes were completely deleted,preventing larger diameter indigenous missiles from being carried.In a lese as well,it makes little sense for the Russians to downgrade such a sub's capability by deleting the larger sized tubes.

[SNaik]

As to her weapon load - anything that fits in 533mm. Russian 971 project boats are not fitted for Klub missiles and I do not expect them on Nerpa.

Thanks SNaik. I was expecting she would come with atleast Klub , else she wont have any stand off anti-ship/surface capability.

Some one told me today Nerpa will reach india by Feb

Austin, Nerpa will have 8x533 TT, same like the last 971 sub for Russian Navy - Gepard. Weapon load for Russian Navy is 40 in total: TEST-71, USET-80, UGST torps, RPK-6 Vodopad and M-5 Shkval antisubmarine missiles as well as Granat SLCMs (currently not carried due to Ru-US disarmement agreement). Only if India requested and paid for necessary modifications she will carry Clubs. I have no indication that this has happened.

[Austin]

Austin, Nerpa will have 8x533 TT, same like the last 971 sub for Russian Navy - Gepard. Weapon load for Russian Navy is 40 in total: TEST-71, USET-80, UGST torps, RPK-6 Vodopad and M-5 Shkval antisubmarine missiles as well as Granat SLCMs (currently not carried due to Ru-US disarmement agreement). Only if India requested and paid for necessary modifications she will carry Clubs. I have no indication that this has happened.

SNaik , India actually paid for this sub to be built when it was just lying in yards ..... rian now quotes $900 million for 10 years lease ...... so the question is have they actually tested Klub with Nerpa , I agree with you i havent heard of Klub trials .... but integrating it with Akula BIUS will not be an issue ...... give me some time I will try to find out from some one.

Vodapad will still offer some stand off capability which is good. So they dont carry the Type-65 any more a fall out of Oscar tragedy ? Thanks.

[arnabh]

India: Naval Superpower?

http://www.defenceiq.com/naval-and-mari ... ent=1/3/12

[prahaar]

Most of the press reports refer to Nerpa as Akula II class submarine. The Wiki claims K-152 Nerpa is a "Akula I Improved" submarine and not Akula II as claimed referred to in DNA article linked above. Is there any official link that mentions what modification version of Akula is Nerpa?

[Austin]

Austin,most reports on the Akulas say that she can carry upto 18 Klubs in a weaponload of 40.The interesting factor is whether the Akula is coming with her larger tubes also,which can accomodate std. 533mm weaonry using liners,or has the std. sized tubes alone.It would be a great pity if the larger tubes were completely deleted,preventing larger diameter indigenous missiles from being carried.In a lese as well,it makes little sense for the Russians to downgrade such a sub's capability by deleting the larger sized tubes.

Klub is a possibility and I am fairly certain they would have those but we will find it out. Why would they delete larger tubes when they can use liners to fire 533 mm weapon and BTW the Vodapad is a 65 cm weapons and is standard weapon with Akula.

This is the Nerpa http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/273/VSXPptHgZz.jpg

The towed is that of Akula-2 and not the Gepard type ..... the Gepard likely has more slender pod becuase it carries a new type of Thin line Towed array sonar.

Any ways no one can look at the sub and say how capable it is , much like no one can look at the Stealth Aircraft and say what is the RCS of it .. for most part IN would never talk about it and keep it away from all eyes ..... Its almost 2 decade that we operated the Chakra and there is hardly any thing we know about it , the secrecy around Akula will be similar and so for Arihant ......you know that Subs are Silent Service.

[sum]

Any ways no one can look at the sub and say how capable it is , much like no one can look at the Stealth Aircraft and say what is the RCS of it .. for most part IN would never talk about it and keep it away from all eyes ..... Its almost 2 decade that we operated the Chakra and there is hardly any thing we know about it , the secrecy around Akula will be similar and so for Arihant ......you know that Subs are Silent Service.

Given that it would have to make its way through the crowded Malacca straits, would expect a large welcome party from diverse navies of the regions waiting with their eyes and ears open for signature collection.

[Manish_Sharma]

Philip since we are only going for few nuke subs unlike SU having 100s of them, can't we make Arihants all titanium like Sierra class, is it matter of money or tech also?

[alexis]

SR,there appears to be only 9 N-boats to be built locally from the reports....Our ATV appears to be a basic "sub-for-all-seasons" design,a compromise that allows the basic design to be used for both SSBN and SSGN roles....

You are right. The report states 3 x SSBNs and 6 x SSNs.

The report also talks about 4 in Arihant class (S1-4) ! So we will have 4 SSBNs

[sum]

^^ Nope...as discussed above, S-1 was the land based prototype at Kalpakkam. S2-4 will be the SSBNs.

[SNaik]

Klub is a possibility and I am fairly certain they would have those but we will find it out. Why would they delete larger tubes when they can use liners to fire 533 mm weapon and BTW the Vodapad is a 65 cm weapons and is standard weapon with Akula.

This is the Nerpa http://militaryrussia.ru/i/284/273/VSXPptHgZz.jpg

The towed is that of Akula-2 and not the Gepard type ..... the Gepard likely has more slender pod becuase it carries a new type of Thin line Towed array sonar.

Any ways no one can look at the sub and say how capable it is , much like no one can look at the Stealth Aircraft and say what is the RCS of it .. for most part IN would never talk about it and keep it away from all eyes ..... Its almost 2 decade that we operated the Chakra and there is hardly any thing we know about it , the secrecy around Akula will be similar and so for Arihant ......you know that Subs are Silent Service.

Nerpa is built to the Gepard standard. She has the tail pod just because the hull was already in advanced stage of readiness, the pod was already there so it was retained.
RPK-6 Vodopad is the 533mm caliber missile, RPK-7 Veter is the 650mm version. As it was nuclear-tipped only, it has been grounded the same way as Granat SLCM and Shkval.
As I said earlier, Club is a possibility, but I have no definite info on it being installed.

[Austin]

Nerpa is built to the Gepard standard.

Thats means a all digital submarine and similar acoustic performance ? Or do you mean something else by Gepard standards ?

RPK-6 Vodopad is the 533mm caliber missile, RPK-7 Veter is the 650mm version.

My understanding is the surface ship version is the 533 mm class weapon while the submarine launched version carrying the 83R torpedoes are the 65 cm weapon , irrespective if the carry the conventional or nuclear charge.

As I said earlier, Club is a possibility, but I have no definite info on it being installed.

Ok we will eventually find that soon.

[Singha]

will it have the 25" tubes active and the Type65 'carrier killer' passive wake homing torpedo?

[Boreas]

IN should procure atleast one more (Deepak class) fleet tanker.

[Austin]

the Type65 'carrier killer' passive wake homing torpedo?

From what i have read the type65 torpedoes are out of all Russian submarine after the Kursk tragedy which was blamed on a leaking Type 65 but no evidence was found to support it but for safety reason it is out , although there are many in the navy who want it back for obvious reason.

I am fairly certain the Type 65 wont be there on Nerpa but they would still retain the 65cm TT becuase it would be capable of firing a bigger cruise missile and it can also fire bigger decoys and you can still fire all the 533 model Torps with liner. Not to mention for special forces ops a bigger TT is more comfortable to swim out with all those specialised payload.

[Singha]

I guess might have been a good idea to have a couple such tubes built in (with liner for now) into the Arihant class and some bigger racks for 25" weapons.....perhaps a desi Type65 upscaled from the HWT.....would certainly be needed once the PLAN carriers come online...nothing like a long range torpedo to chew the tail end off a carrier and inflict massive damage into the engine bays. a single hit would mission kill the carrier instantly and make it limp home towed by tugs, drawing away its protective DDGs and SSN as well. incapable of manouvering to sustain air ops, it could then be targeted by ASMs and airstrikes.

[vina]

would certainly be needed once the PLAN carriers come online...nothing like a long range torpedo to chew the tail end off a carrier and inflict massive damage into the engine bays

That kind of long range strikes is done by subs these days not by maneuvering in close and unleashing a Shkval like "vengeance weapon" , but by firing tube launched anti ship rockets (Harpoon, Exocet, Klub-S) etc , giving far better range (upwards of 100km), much lower reaction time (couple of 100 s) and a salvo of these can wreck total havoc.

Sure,a torpedo will carry a bigger punch and might well sink the ship with one strike while a missile strike has to be extremely lucky to sink a large ship, but can mission kill it effectively.

[nachiket]

^^Wouldn't anti-ship missiles be easier to intercept with the carrier's ADS?

[bahdada]

Another burning Russian SSN in the news.

[Singha]

>> but by firing tube launched anti ship rockets (Harpoon, Exocet, Klub-S) etc , giving far better range (upwards of 100km), much lower reaction time (couple of 100 s) and a salvo of these can wreck total havoc.

a sub commander would always prefer a quiet kill using passive wake homers than announce his position loudly to hostile radar and LRMP units with a ASM salvo. the Exocet SM39 even has a cartridge that moves the missile through the water for some distance in a preset move to somewhat mask the exact firing location of the sub...also inflight missiles can be targeted by all means incl active and passive EW, AAMs, SAMs, guns...against smaller targets its fine, but a carrier will always have LRMP a/c and helis prowling around.

he would lie in wait as a bottom feeder letting the target transit his area, then release some wake homers using a quiet swimout mode wherein no compressed air is used and torpedo goes out quietly on own power and mininal RPM before it rises and locks onto the wake of the ships using optical sensor...then starts quietly following it @ 50kmph for upto 100km in the case of the type65 or atleast 50km in the case of smaller ones.

the sub has nothing further to do and quietly slips away from the scene...monitoring passively for any threats. ofcourse he can also unload a salvo of ASMs to add into the matrix before sprinting away...but first let the 'fish' pickup the scent and start running into the hunt....

[member_20163]

Hi Singha - Excellent strategy chief, it got me right into the virtual action.

[SNaik]

Nerpa is built to the Gepard standard.

Thats means a all digital submarine and similar acoustic performance ? Or do you mean something else by Gepard standards ?

RPK-6 Vodopad is the 533mm caliber missile, RPK-7 Veter is the 650mm version.

My understanding is the surface ship version is the 533 mm class weapon while the submarine launched version carrying the 83R torpedoes are the 65 cm weapon , irrespective if the carry the conventional or nuclear charge.

As I said earlier, Club is a possibility, but I have no definite info on it being installed.

Ok we will eventually find that soon.

Yes, all digital and similar acoustic performance. As well as 8 533mm TTs.

You are wrong. Both RPK-6 and RPK-7 are initially submarine weapons. RPK-7 is nucelar tipped ONLY and was never used on surface ship. RPK-6, when used on surface ship, will also launch the missile into water first and it will take off from there. There is footage available of 1155 firing Vodopad.

[Austin]

Some old INS Chakra Stories

FIRST HAND | How Shrimp Nearly Wrecked India's First Brush With A Nuke Sub

[nelson]

If the writeup on IN submarines dated 05 Jan is true or close enough, i think we are in serious trouble in the not so distant future.
http://orbat.com/

[Philip]

From the above link.

· The issue is India cannot get its defense production act together, and is not bothered to get it together.

· In Indian cosmology, God created this, and an infinity of other universes, simply by dreaming of them. It’s a variant of the Christian God’s speaking the word, and the Christian God, of course, created just this one universe.

· What the Indians have yet to understand is that once manifest on the material plane, it takes a little bit more than dreaming of being a superpower to make it so. It takes planning, organization, and execution.

· Planning? Organization? Execution? To the Government of India, when it comes to defense, these are foul words that must immediately be banished from the vocabulary. And so they have, leaving India not a potential superpower, but a potential potential superpower.

One has for aeons,year after year, bemoaned the state of the sub fleet,in fact I remember reading the same when Ad.Bhagwat was CNS and his plans for the "24" subs! Is this all due to our "cultural problem" ? In other spheres one often sees a similar attitude.

[NRao]

The guy is right.

Planning? Organization? Execution? To the Government of India, when it comes to defense, these are foul words that must immediately be banished from the vocabulary. And so they have, ...............................

[Kartik]

Great article on how a new approach to the carrier for the IN's SHar's was perfected..This allowed the IN to use the relative recovery method for landing on board a carrier, thus obviating the need of the carrier to turn into the wind to allow the SHar's to land.

Navy Quarterdeck issue

the article appears on page 55.

[Kersi D]

The guy is right.

Planning? Organization? Execution? To the Government of India, when it comes to defense, these are foul words that must immediately be banished from the vocabulary. And so they have, ...............................

Also banish honesty, integretiy, GSQ, Europe, Israel, USA etc

[Austin]

Yes, all digital and similar acoustic performance. As well as 8 533mm TTs.

If true that Nerpa performance is similar to Gepard type then its really something nice. I read Gepard had acoustic quitening similar to sea wolf but at slower speed and it had fast search rate at high tactical speed similar to sea wolf ,

http://www.wps.ru/en/pp/kursk/2001/10/16/1.html

Captain Pavel Nychko, a representative of the Defense Ministry, said, "There are no submarines which can compete with the Gepard in the world's oceans."

Up-to-date submarine sonar systems do not detect the Gapard, which moves at a high speed. The Gepard can discover the enemy before it spots the submarine.