India selects Typhoon & Rafale for MMRCA shortlist - Part 3

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 17 Jan 2012 23:17

over engineering beats the crap out of the sdre psyche. i just can't believe that. one can't go by the looks alone.. it might be even a more hollow shaving of the materials or change of materials itself. nevertheless, I doubt we are such poor people on the topic of SoM.

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 18 Jan 2012 00:06

SaiK wrote:over engineering beats the crap out of the sdre psyche. i just can't believe that. one can't go by the looks alone.. it might be even a more hollow shaving of the materials or change of materials itself. nevertheless, I doubt we are such poor people on the topic of SoM.

You're right : look & feel is not the purpose (although it's always more an agreement), and i doubt that Paf or Plaaf would blush just because of it

But Rafale has proven over Lybia that it was already the real multirole aircraft we need. Typhoon first started war only in a2a role, and from may it was tasked for 1000lbs laser bombing (the only a2g weapon available) coupled with Tornado for laser guidance, and with its own Pod since july. But bombs were too heavy for collateral damages and RAF Typhoon number decreased from 10 to 4.
Does one of you know about scores between Tiffy vs Raffy during a2a exercices such as Red Flag or Tclp ? This could be interesting.

atma · Post by **atma** » 18 Jan 2012 00:27

Singha wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6okVNJ6 ... re=related

Rafale's over the med....very nice music....there is a certain sadness and emotion about this noble beast that cannot be expressed in a dry formula...its hard to let her go if we let her go...marriage is done for many reasons....but first love is always first love...damn she's beautiful!

Looks like the refuelled aircraft in the beginning and end are M2Ks, hainji? The alluring Rafale seems to appear with storm shadows(?) towards the center of the clip.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2012 00:28

Raf Khan wrote:
SaiK wrote:over engineering beats the crap out of the sdre psyche. i just can't believe that. one can't go by the looks alone.. it might be even a more hollow shaving of the materials or change of materials itself. nevertheless, I doubt we are such poor people on the topic of SoM.
You're right : look & feel is not the purpose (although it's always more an agreement), and i doubt that Paf or Plaaf would blush just because of it
But Rafale has proven over Lybia that it was already the real multirole aircraft we need. Typhoon first started war only in a2a role, and from may it was tasked for 1000lbs laser bombing (the only a2g weapon available) coupled with Tornado for laser guidance, and with its own Pod since july. But bombs were too heavy for collateral damages and RAF Typhoon number decreased from 10 to 4.
Does one of you know about scores between Tiffy vs Raffy during a2a exercices such as Red Flag or Tclp ? This could be interesting.

Please don't speak about DACT exercises between the two ... we have discussed them to hell already

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Jan 2012 00:36

atma wrote:
Singha wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6okVNJ6 ... re=related

Rafale's over the med....very nice music....there is a certain sadness and emotion about this noble beast that cannot be expressed in a dry formula...its hard to let her go if we let her go...marriage is done for many reasons....but first love is always first love...damn she's beautiful!
Looks like the refuelled aircraft in the beginning and end are M2Ks, hainji? The alluring Rafale seems to appear with storm shadows(?) towards the center of the clip.

What are you speaking of? The aircraft in the beginning are definitely Rafales ... the Mirage provides a fleeting glimpse at 2:50 and appears prominently between 3:15 to 3:40 and 4:45 to 4:51!

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 18 Jan 2012 05:30

IMHO all this discussion about negative outcomes is much like the hand wringing experienced by Class 10/12 students in the days leading up to announcement of the much anticipated results.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2012 08:32

the black nose white painted B707 is also one of the prettiest a/c ever, after the de havilland Comet.

koti · Post by **koti** » 18 Jan 2012 12:12

MarcH wrote:Point is, even if Eurofighter is identified as L1, there are good reasons to go for Rafale. It is as program way easier to handle.

I agree.
Added to that, it is politically safer too.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jan 2012 12:25

Singha wrote:the black nose white painted B707 is also one of the prettiest a/c ever, after the de havilland Comet.

That's how we used to draw an airliner back in the KG days .

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 18 Jan 2012 14:52

Avid wrote:IMHO all this discussion about negative outcomes is much like the hand wringing experienced by Class 10/12 students in the days leading up to announcement of the much anticipated results.

Not really, at least in my case. I don't particularly care who gets the contract (both are fine birds) or if the contract is even awarded. Would be happy enough to see either bird in IAF colors - if I wasn't paying so much for them.

What bothers me is the unclear, diffused rationale for the MMRCA program. Maybe there are good solid and coherent reasons but I can't fathom them. Are there any articulated principles on which our force posture is based? Any argument as to what is needed to make that posture a reality? Any mapping of these identified needs to how the MMRCA program will fulfill them? Finally the lowest level, least interesting bit (which has taken the most discussion space on BR) as to which selection best meets the MMRCA criteria.

Ten different people will give us twenty different reasons why we are buying and why this purchase might be good. But haven't really seen anyone argue with anything other than hand-waving as to how this purchase will help us achieve the objectives they think this program should address. We might be getting a good piece of kit for quite an ransom, but the underlying feeling I get is that a burst of economic growth gave us a bad case of Ameritosis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jan 2012 17:53

AWST has in recent issues (in fact the latest has a cover feature on "one decade of the JSF,big goals,problems,questions") given details of the extraordinary extent to which the Japanese have plumped for the JSF,reasons which beggar belief even to AWST.Examples:

One F-2,made in Japan will cost $190+M ! The JSF (which has not undergone competitive trials,still in its development stage, "has peformed the best",against the EF,etc.! How did they do it? At a gaming arcade? It is also "the cheapest",while even the USAF cannot predict what the actual cost will be! Finally,as far as TOT/exchange of technicla knowhow,is concerned,the EF was the highest with "95%",othere "85%" and the JSF,was "much less".Many Japanese politicans were fully in favour of the EF as being the best option,readily available,able to replace old Phantoms,and when ready,recommended a buy of JSFs too.

The Japanese desperately seem to want 5th-gen tech,for the sake of it, and there appears to be strong vested interests both in Japan and the US who want this deal to go through,which will then put pressure upon US allies in Asia like SoKo.Oz,etc.,to "keep up with the Japanese". Why this is relevant to us with the MMRCA,is that we too cannot afford to be profligate like the Japanese in our decision,which must be based upon sound technical and cost-effective reasons,that fit in with the grand masterplan for the IAF for the coming decades.If the financial "pinch" right now is biting too hard,then "we must cut our coat according to the cloth".

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 18 Jan 2012 17:57

Badar wrote:We might be getting a good piece of kit for quite an ransom, but the underlying feeling I get is that a burst of economic growth gave us a bad case of Ameritosis.

What do you mean by "Ameritosis" ? Do you mean "Amitosis", kind of cellular division with somehow degeneration ?

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 18 Jan 2012 18:22

Raf Khan wrote:What do you mean by "Ameritosis" ? Do you mean "Amitosis", kind of cellular division with somehow degeneration ?

Ameritosis - "american disease". To spend beyond ones means on 'exquisite' weapons systems.

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 18 Jan 2012 18:24

Philip wrote:The JSF is also "the cheapest",while even the USAF cannot predict what the actual cost will be!

We just know by now that the 2443a/c required for US (USAF, Navy, Marines, National Guard) will cost 325Md$ to USA only, which values 135M$ each JSF (385Md$ is the full international program for 2800a/c). (weapons not included)
Due to some flight test bad results (bad hook design for naval version, flutter problems), the airframe could be revised and thus increasing the development price and delaying the production aircraft.
The initial price of 50M$ per JSF has already reached 135M$ per F35, and many buyers divided their initial command (some by 2) because of this higher price.
But F35 is really a 5th gen a/c, even if RCS is a bit larger than the JSF prototype (see http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-2009-01.html).

Indeed F35 is mainly a political choice, and US will never let their Asian customers go for another a/c (South Korea, Singapour, Japan, Taiwan) putting all they can in the balance. I think that Japan couldn't choose any non-us a/c. I assume that being refused F22 by congress, they had seduced BAE to propose EF in order to threat US that they were not happy with that. But you cannot fight against Uncle Sam, nor bargain. You have to follow their instructions or they will be very angry.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jan 2012 19:13

:Ameritosis" is a very contagious disease truly,when you "embrace" Uncle Sam!

On another note,here is an excerpt,about SU-30 engine problems,due to either faulty components,being left out in the tropical heat,poor IAF maintenance,etc.,but what is interesting though is the stated cost of an SU-30MKI,just " less than $40m"! Thhs is leas than half the price of the two touted Eurobirds!

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatri ... 20118.aspx

Mad Dogs, Englishmen And Su-30MKIs

January 18, 2012: The Indian government is investigating a number of recent accidents involving its Russian Su-30MKI jet fighters. Recently, investigators discovered that many of the Su-30MKI aircraft were routinely parked in the open. India is a tropical nation and the direct sunlight not only heats up the aircraft, but the ultraviolet radiation levels are highest in the tropics. The prolonged exposure to all this heat and radiation is not good for a high-performance aircraft. Although built to handle high-altitude, high-speed conditions, these aircraft are usually parked in a shelter to reduce the potential weather damage. When powered down, components normally protected by cooling systems are exposed to extremely high levels of heat. It's not known what sort of component failure this might induce, so the investigators are trying to find out what long periods of high internal heat might do to aircraft performance. Russian aircraft designers have long paid more attention to designing aircraft that survive prolonged exposure to extreme cold. In the past, Russian military equipment has been found unable to handle exposure to the tropical heat of India, and other tropical countries.

Among the other suspected causes for recent Su-30MKI crashes are shoddy Russian made components, especially in the Russian designed AL-31 engines. There have been several AL-31 failures lately, both in Indian and Russian Su-30s. The $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-27/30, and the Chinese J-11, and J-10) is assembled in India. The assembly process is exacting and India has created thousands of technicians and engineers with valuable experience working on these engines. India has not been able to develop the technology to manufacture core components (that deal with very high pressures and temperatures) and buys these components from Russia. It is some of these components that are failing and India is telling the Russians that the problem must be fixed, soon, or Russia will lose more weapons export sales. But shoddy aircraft maintenance by the Indian Air Force is also suspected.

India buys bare bones fighters from Russia, and equips these Su-30MKIs with Israeli sensors and communications gear. India has about a hundred Su-30MKIs in service, and is building about one a month under license. India bought fifty in the late 1990s, and another 40 three years ago. This is in addition to the license to build 140 locally. Another 42 are on order. India wants to have nearly 300 within four years, partly because of the increasing threat of invasion by China. The first 18 Su-30s India received from Russia have been retired after a decade of service. In many respects, the Indian made Su-30s, the Su-30MKI, is the most capable version available, due to its Israeli and European electronics, and the well trained Indian pilots.

The 38 ton SU-30MKI is most similar to the two seat American F-15E fighter-bomber. Even though equipped with Western electronics, the aircraft cost less than $40 million each, about half what an equivalent F-15 costs. The Su-30MKI can carry more than eight tons of bombs and hit targets over 1,500 kilometers away.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 18 Jan 2012 21:01

StrategyPage......seriously??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jan 2012 21:22

its a paki run page.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 18 Jan 2012 21:47

With MOD busy with fighting legal battle with COAS, the MMRCA announcement might be delayed.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Jan 2012 23:26

The $40m price tag on the MKIs is from the 90s. The last 42 ordered cost us a lot more.

kuldipchager · Post by **kuldipchager** » 19 Jan 2012 03:02

nachiket said:
The $40m price tag on the MKIs is from the 90s. The last 42 ordered cost us a lot more.

Now if we are paying higher,with that we are getting special goodies which were devolp later.
If we pay extra, we can absurve it. These new bird are super mki,can fire Bramo missiles plus more.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Jan 2012 03:07

I'm sorry I was mistaken. Even in the 40 aircraft deal in 2007, the price was $40 mil per aircraft. But the 42 aircraft order in 2010 cost $4.3 billion...that's $100+ million per aircraft. There are no details on what is actually in these aircraft to warrant a 100+% price increase.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jan 2012 03:31

don't ask don't tell.. it is all khanizing our future. if a loop hole is found anywhere, we will import it first. /rant.
q: what is the fastest way to get rich?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jan 2012 07:09

Even if the Super Flanker's cost is the equal of the MMRCA bird of choice,which appears to be unlikely,look at the gap in performance and capabilities? Forget Stratpage,whatever,there are numerous other reports from AWST etc. on Flanker costs.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Jan 2012 07:42

chaanakya wrote:With MOD busy with fighting legal battle with COAS, the MMRCA announcement might be delayed.

I agree. With the COAS controversy raging, I doubt if the bureaucrats in the MoD or the ministers in the CCS will announce a major procurement decision which could raise another controversy.

I think it will delay the decision for another six months. Another possibility is that the whole MMRCA deal may just end up dying on the shelf.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Jan 2012 07:52

> will announce a major procurement decision which could raise another controversy.

the process has been long and transparent. what scope is there for controversy?

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 19 Jan 2012 07:58

Singha wrote:> will announce a major procurement decision which could raise another controversy.

the process has been long and transparent. what scope is there for controversy?

Whoever loses will feed media stories about shenanigans in selection. 'Inferior product was bought at a higher price. Calculations were fudged at the direction of so-and-so. Scam! Scam!'

Will the Govt. risk such headlines at this juncture?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jan 2012 08:11

I agree,with the MMRCA,there has been an attempt to be as transparent as possible,as the political pressure upon the GOI from foreign nations has been massive on all sides.Being transparent has kept them (foreign interests) at bay.There should be no delay in announcing the decision whatever happens in the ongoing "Battle of the Birthday". Babudom might have its own vested interest in seeing that the decision is delayed so that it can inject a new (discarded ) player as a less costly option,as thus far,technical evaluation has decided the finalists,not other considerations.Given the smallest opportunity,babudom will be upto mischief and derail the decision just as it has done with other long-pending procurement decisions.ACM Browne appears to be most keen that an early announcement is made (esp. with further LCA delays) adding to the pressure in case the political will/backbone develops an "ailment"!

PS:In the current critical context,on the contrary there will be extra vigilance and scrutiny of the smallest decimal point by the bean counters to ensure that the most critical of observers will be satisfied as to the fairness of the evaluation.Thus far there has been little criticism of the decision in choosing the finalists and a steady stream of info about the progress ,unusual for the GOI/MOD, has aroused no controversy.The loser no doubt will beat his drum in protest,but that is to be expected.The same happened when the Rafale was rejected in other contexts.It is happening right now with the Japanese decision to buy the JSF,where a string of ridiculous excuses and arguments have been used to decide upon the JSF ,rejecting the EF,etc.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 19 Jan 2012 09:44

Today is the CCS meeting. Will we get to know?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jan 2012 09:54

yes.. lot of tweets here:
http://livefist.blogspot.com/

The sense I get is the government has until Republic Day (Jan 26) to declare the lowest bidder -- if it wants to, that is. After that, the country enters a phase of an elaborate series of crucial state elections that bring with them their own political sensitivities and code of conduct guidelines. The sense I get, therefore, is that if the government intends to make an announcement this month, it has to be in the next 10-odd days. Otherwise, it could drift for months as the establishment's mind gets diverted. As always, stay tuned.

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Jan 2012 10:21

rajanb wrote:Today is the CCS meeting. Will we get to know?

But what i heard..is that CCS meeting is about trainer aircraft.. i don know MMRCA discussion will also happen there

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 19 Jan 2012 10:37

Washington is pushing New Delhi to cancel the tender between the Rafale and the Eurofighter in favor of his F-35, a source close to EADS.

@AlainRuello

Tweets flying around...

nash · Post by **nash** » 19 Jan 2012 10:42

saurav.jha wrote:
Washington is pushing New Delhi to cancel the tender between the Rafale and the Eurofighter in favor of his F-35, a source close to EADS.
@AlainRuello

Tweets flying around...

currently this rumour can also possible

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 19 Jan 2012 10:53

saurav.jha wrote:
Washington is pushing New Delhi to cancel the tender between the Rafale and the Eurofighter in favor of his F-35, a source close to EADS.
@AlainRuello

Tweets flying around...

They must be in cuckooland!

Will · Post by **Will** » 19 Jan 2012 10:59

Kakkaji wrote:
Singha wrote:> will announce a major procurement decision which could raise another controversy.

the process has been long and transparent. what scope is there for controversy?
Whoever loses will feed media stories about shenanigans in selection. 'Inferior product was bought at a higher price. Calculations were fudged at the direction of so-and-so. Scam! Scam!'

Will the Govt. risk such headlines at this juncture?

You got a point there. With State elections around the corner this decision might get delayed well past the elections .

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 19 Jan 2012 11:25

saurav.jha wrote:
Washington is pushing New Delhi to cancel the tender between the Rafale and the Eurofighter in favor of his F-35, a source close to EADS.
@AlainRuello

Tweets flying around...

Aah, looks like you are back from your ban.

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 19 Jan 2012 13:04

US already won the contrat for C17 : 10Md$, as much as MMRCA but they always want more ! And all the more went it can defeat european aircraft makers.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 19 Jan 2012 13:08

Raf Khan wrote:US already won the contrat for C17 : 10Md$

That sounds too cheap to be true. Surely you mean 10B$?

member_22516 · Post by **member_22516** » 19 Jan 2012 13:29

In fact it's around $7 billion, for purchase of 16 C17s, in april (2011)
India became the biggest C17 foreign buyer.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Jan 2012 15:00

The JSF over the Typhoon? What a joke! The problem plagued aircraft is so delayed in development that it will be 2019,when it enters service with the USAF first! AWST 12/12/11 has a front page feature: "Big Goals,Big Problems,Big Questions",giving detailed news of the status of the aircraft.Some excerpts:

Cost:
Will be "7%" over the target cost of $111.6m for F-35A,$109.4 for the F-35B,and $142.9m for the F-35C! This too is only estimated costs for the LRIP aircrat,limited series production.In fact,LRIP 1-3 has cost already $136m and fingers are being crossed in the hope that new problems are not encountered.

Testing:
Marked improvement,"but too early to declare victory".Testing in the supersonic corridor",630 kts to M1.6,as max Mach design number is only M1.6 as the designerss hoped that stealth would siffice (remember my posts about stealth degradation with new IRST and ohter sensor developments)."One of the challenges is to get all the computers to talk to each other when they wake up".The problem peaked in Dec.Let us hope the computers "wake up " faster than Rip Van Winkle! Other problems include vibration,stress cracks requiring thicker sections,recurring failure of fan door actuators in the C variant,tailhook "skip" on the carriier version and most seriosu,"lift fan clutch plate overheating" to "unacceptable levels" in the STOVL version,which may require much expensive redesign
.
Training:
Still unable to train pilots! Chief tester says,"risk of a mishap would overcome the very modest benefits of beginning flight training this fall".
Winslow Wheeler,longtime Pentagon critic,suggests that "the entire programme-ncluding production and training be put on hold",until more testing is completed.

Key F-35 Dev. issues:
Aux. inlet doors.Fluttermhinge wear.Solution-stiffer mechanism.
Bulkhead 496-early cracking.Solution-stuiffer material.
Roll posts-actuator overheating.Solution-insulation,redesign.
Lift fan driveshaft-length variations.Solution-flexible coupling.
Lift fan clutch-plate drag.overheating.olution-temp. sensors,extra cooling.

So this is the aircraft,where pilots cannot be trained upon as yet,for fear of accidents,coming in at a min. of $120m+ at current estimates,which will enter service for us only a decade from now,which will only fly at a max speed of M1.6,is supposed to be the better option than a cheaper Eurobird,both of whom have been battle tested in Libya?! IAF,any takers?

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 19 Jan 2012 15:12

Lightning hai muscular, hai popular, climb rate hai spectacular
uska ka engine tez hai, wo Japan mein craze hai,
uska RCS light hai, wo dikhat 5th gen hai,
.
.
.
but lightning can't land sala