Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 12:42

Chandragupta wrote:
bahdada wrote:Oh lordy. Any of you read the comment sections of those French dailies?
Links please!

I assume, the ToT and 108 to be mfg in Bangalore is clearly getting the attention. People are unhappy and cursing Sarko.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 13:07

Sid , I think the price quoted would be with all current internal eqpt incl Spectra and with the desired missing must haves like RBE2AA. and would include some years of support/training and spares also. I would expect the loaded cost to be north of 100 mil for sure.

external pods (recee, targeting), weapons would again be separate and a deal will need to be worked out once IAF chooses the weapons matrix and numbers. this might involve some Dassault integration also as in for SDB, sudarshan, astra and SLAM-ER.
my guess is the weapons pkg will be north of $5b again....though not in one shot.

one way we can reduce cost is by buying less weapons - which renders it ineffective in a hot war and more a airshow pony.

another way is get local weapons more and more into service asap.

1. they are testing the 1000lb bomb + sudarshan kit. why not with 500lb and 2000lb also? if sudarshan can cover that there is no need for GBU
2. stuff in a GLONASS seeker into sudarshan and you have JDAM
3. I hear no talk of CBU type submunitions with sudarshan laser guidance or glonass. we need 1000s of these units not just the 400 or so CBU105 we purchased from khan. even if our submunitions are not as lethal or smart as khan we still need 1000s.
4. Astra being ready would have cancelled the need to buy mica or amraam
5. we have no standoff hard target missile locally - so again popeye, SLAM-ER, taurus, scalp - pay big $$ for pitiful small units
6. we have ample nos of R73 missiles but I wonder if they can be used in rafale

this is a urgent area to pay attention to - local weapons.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Feb 2012 13:14

IF this deal is expected to be around $18-20 billion, then the add-on should be around $10 billion. This MMRCA will total around $30 billion US Dollars when all is said and done.

Now on the flip side, what will $15 Billion in off-sets bring India? It better make Indian self sufficient in most respects, I would hope, in the next 10 years or so. Not having to go back to France for upgrades and building the confidence to make a very competitive AMCA.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 01 Feb 2012 13:18

Chandragupta wrote:
bahdada wrote:Oh lordy. Any of you read the comment sections of those French dailies?
Links please!

I'd advise using Chrome or Google translate if your Francais isn't up to par.

http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01022 ... s-a-l-inde

Sacrebleu!

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 01 Feb 2012 13:20

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html

Most french comments on the deal are negative... I think it is more to do with unpopularity of Mr Surkozy and Mr Dassualt than anything else. Main gripe being production in India. Cost is substantially lower that what was offered to other countries and of course the fact that announcement came so close to elections.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Feb 2012 13:32

Interesting comments there , one even calling us thieves

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 01 Feb 2012 13:38

vina wrote:
Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well.

I do hope your prayers do not get answered. That is surely the easiest way to wreck the design and development of AMCA.

trushant · Post by **trushant** » 01 Feb 2012 13:40

Sri wrote:http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/ ... _3234.html

Most french comments on the deal are negative... I think it is more to do with unpopularity of Mr Surkozy and Mr Dassualt than anything else. Main gripe being production in India. Cost is substantially lower that what was offered to other countries and of course the fact that announcement came so close to elections.

So India continues to be the knight on the white horse for politicians in trouble

First Boris Yeltsin - For Su30 - PM - Narsimha Rao

here's the link to wonderful story by Shekhar Gupta on Sukhoi Deal

http://www.indianexpress.com/oldStory/66287/

Now the mystery of what exactly that “larger” national interest was that had led to such haste and a large advance payment in the last days of the Rao government. It seems that Yeltsin had told Rao that he, too, was heading for elections, that the Sukhoi factory happened to be in his constituency, was too broke to even pay salaries to its staff and if India could pay it that advance it would work like magic in his election campaign. That advance was, therefore, a political deal between the big boys, to be adjusted in the final pricing later. It was a conscious, diplomatic decision, cleared by Rao (who, in retirement many years later, confirmed this to me with a wicked smile), and executed by none else than the then finance minister, Manmohan Singh.

Now Nicholas Sarkozy - For Rafale - PM - Manmohan Singh

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 13:45

Selling tech manufacturing know-how, and aircraft to less than half their real value and which cost the skin of the ass to French taxpayers .. BUT WHAT IS HUGE SUCCESS .... SUCCESS .... thieves!

Will · Post by **Will** » 01 Feb 2012 14:56

Indeed, with the Rafale joining squadron service, the air force will be top- heavy because there will not be enough light fighters which can carry out combat air patrols on the cheap. The air force is making its bed, but it is the taxpayer of the country that has to sleep on it.

[/quote]

Well rather the armedforces or the airforce as in this case than politicians siphoning off billions of dollars to secret accounts.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 15:22

I have tried to sum up the mood of the Rafale deal French public sentiments negative on Dassault win in India

Shortly, I will be posting an article from an ex IAF Sqn leader.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 01 Feb 2012 15:34

JAI HO!!
FINALLY , AFTER A LONG BATTLE THE BEST AIRCRAFT WINS
SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST

CHEERS TO ALL BRFITES

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 01 Feb 2012 15:42

Just for the sake of laughs by ex Sqn Leader George Menezes and his posting to France as an Air Attache in 1962. My problems with corruption in Paris

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 01 Feb 2012 15:48

Why is it that on every forum in BR we see the same thing..

AMCA - YES !! now that rafale is chosen we could get xyz from french....
Kaveri - YES !! now that rafale is chosen we could get xyz from french....
Scorpene - YES !! now that rafale is chosen....
UCAV Nueron -.......

When Pak-fa flew fist time immediately people started on how that program could feed technology and experience into AMCA. But these things never happen, least of all immediately. Nobody will be gifting technology just because they have signed a major defense deal with India.

We have to work hard towards making things at home. As soon as we get the initial batch of Rafale, we should look at understanding how it works, probably assess materials and designs - develop alternatives, go through the source code, learn what is shared, hack into what is not being shared. By the time of the mid-life upgrade, we should be having options to do it ourselves.

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 01 Feb 2012 15:54

Wonderful News! I am really impressed this time how well this whole process has gone. In my gut, I feel this is based on India's history of having a extremely reliable supplier in France, as has been proven in the past. Going forward, this will bring on the least headaches since we are dealing with only one party i.e. the French Govt that has proven to support India in times of crisis, like the sanctions after the 1999 tests.

With the other contenders, the political headaches of dealing with several decsion makers and political interests would have been a constant headache.

This deal will retain India's political independence on the world stage.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 01 Feb 2012 15:59

Finally ...Rafale has made to the finish line.
I recall last year, a poll conducted by shiv on MMRCA, and I voted for Rafale.
Nothing sweeter than the news of its selection!

Sharma · Post by **Sharma** » 01 Feb 2012 16:07

Sore loosers....

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 01 Feb 2012 16:22

Sharma wrote:Sore loosers....

Its immaturity is funny till you get to the vitriolic comments.

I wonder if the beef buffon (like the mango abdul) in the UK realises that we placed a significant order to BAe for the Hawk trainer. From the sound of it the 1Billion pound aid was to buy this order?

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Feb 2012 16:23

Sharma wrote:Sore loosers....

You can bet on Brits being sore loosers, in any type of competition.

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 01 Feb 2012 16:24

Jingo Bahut Khush Hua!

I think politically it is a smart decision.

Rafale – we deal with only one country

Typhoon – we would have been required to deal with 4 countries

However, I am puzzled as to why no country has bought Rafale so far – is it because it is considered ‘too expensive’?

Also, will all Rafales be fitted with AESA?

Ajit.C · Post by **Ajit.C** » 01 Feb 2012 16:28

Sharma wrote:
Sore loosers....

Well the 1 billion aid is repentance for centuries of exploiting our resources.

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Feb 2012 16:30

any new on price quoted?

member_20453 · Post by **member_20453** » 01 Feb 2012 16:53

well I think now is the real challenge for Raffy since they have come often to the final leg and messed up. It really isn't over till the deal is signed.

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 01 Feb 2012 16:56

Neela wrote:
vina wrote:
Going forward, I do pray, that the AMCA is a multi national deal with us roping in the Swedes , Brazilians , South Africans and the French in as well , pool all resources and strengths and build a truly great fighter with good assured market and satisfying the needs of all friendly countries and to rub chilli into Panda's backside, export those to Vietnam and a threat of sales to Taiwan as well.

I do hope your prayers do not get answered. That is surely the easiest way to wreck the design and development of AMCA.

I dont think AMCA would be 100 percent indigenous either, so why dont we seek reliable partners rather than outsourcing.

As regards technology development, IMO only an innovator has the advantage of taking his own time and still be assured of market feasibility. we still have a long way to climb the learning curve.

I think learning is at its best when there is a strong mutual co-operation. so no harm in seeking a few partners, provided there is ample freedom for technical expertise to move within the cluster.

All this if we wish to see an operational AMCA with minimal budget overruns.

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 01 Feb 2012 17:01

JTull wrote:
Sharma wrote:Sore loosers....
You can bet on Brits being sore loosers, in any type of competition.

'The Typhoon is a superb aircraft which supports thousands of highly skilled jobs in the UK, both at BAE Systems and in the supply chain.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1l86lsnjw

I am laughing my arse off looking at the brits comments.
P.S which billion pound aid are they talking abt? I thought they owe us over a trillion pounds+ cumulative Interest for the past 150 years.

I see more benefits with French in our guild than brits,italy,spain,germany.
The only country in this consortium that's worth mentioning is Germany..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Feb 2012 17:03

I am waiting for comment to my comment if it gets published

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Feb 2012 17:10

glad to see Rafael win.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 17:11

Sharma wrote:Sore loosers....

O Boy!
Here I am, thinking Indian media is sensational and ungentlemanly...

Seems we don't have much to catch up now...

Ravi Kumar · Post by **Ravi Kumar** » 01 Feb 2012 17:13

Italy and Spain are part of the coffee club that opposes G4 in UNSC reform. Just wondering, to what extent would this have effected the typhoon.

koti · Post by **koti** » 01 Feb 2012 17:14

jaladipc wrote:
JTull wrote:You can bet on Brits being sore loosers, in any type of competition.

'The Typhoon is a superb aircraft which supports thousands of highly skilled jobs in the UK, both at BAE Systems and in the supply chain.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1l86lsnjw
P.S which billion pound aid are they talking abt? I thought they owe us over a trillion pounds+ cumulative Interest for the past 150 years.

I see more benefits with French in our guild than brits,italy,spain,germany.
The only country in this consortium that's worth mentioning is Germany..

OT
jaladipc jee, whats more is that UK seems to have a policy to give aid only if there is a business benefit in that.
And they still call it Aid....

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Feb 2012 17:15

If IAF is going for Rafael then what is the need of Mirage upgradation ?

just like Su-30MKI replaced Su-30s initially we brought, IAF should negotiate for replacing older Mirages with newer Rafaels i.e, additional 52 Rafaels. Making a total of 250 fighters (52 old Mirage + 126 New order + 72 additional order).

Is IAF looking at above option ?

silod · Post by **silod** » 01 Feb 2012 17:16

I know this is not a right forum to ask this question but as this is the newest forum, I am taking the liberty to ask "where is Mr. Vivek Ahuja nowadays?" His solo book was supposed to hit the market in January this year. Any news on that?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Feb 2012 17:35

Congrats to IAF. I actually thought India will go for Euro. In late 1998 during a chat with another couple of BRF jingoes we were making a list of wishes for IAF and Raffy was one of them. The thought was that Indian budgets will never reach a stage to buy and maintain Raffy. It is amazing speed India reached that day's wishful thinking. Hope it goes complete indegeneous like an upgraded LCA and MCA.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 01 Feb 2012 17:46

Sharma wrote:Sore loosers....

i m enjoying rubbing it on em on aid issue... But the sense on betrayal seems pretty ingrained. Brit will be brit I tell you...

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Feb 2012 18:06

One reason why the Typhoon was knocked out could very well be Saudi Barbaria's AF have signed a deal with BAE to supply 72 (yes) of these. And the Barbarians do employ as we know plenty Paki's. So why go for a fighter that your enemy probably knows pretty well.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Feb 2012 18:11

well we still buying MKIs which the chinese MKK is broadly similar with, Pakis have got exposure to M2K in UAE.

the only plane the pakis cannot catch a ride in is Tejas (our own) and Pakfa.

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 01 Feb 2012 18:19

Well, this is not a time for exuberance as far as IAF is concerned. It has a monumental task as far as recovering lost ground is concerned in terms of total sanctioned strenght. Current Procurement system only highlight the fact that our Political leader are too Pak centric and seems to have completely forgotten formidable China which can outnumber IAF any day. Our IAF have been reduced to an airforce akin to those situated in Arab World which is building an airforce to showcase its all new jets only during national days. India really need to put Tejas on the block and begin airforce building by putting homegrown resources in mind. I don't know how our government will be going to purchase this jets when we are running high fiscal and current account deficit.

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 01 Feb 2012 18:52

You never know. It could be a clever tactic of the Indian Goverment. Hold on in there Blighty - we may steal it away at the last minute afterall !

- Jon, London / UK, 1/2/2012 14:55

Simple. From 13billion we would have made 1 billion profit at least so take back the billion we offered in aid and bingo we make the profit without the need to supply and we can go after other work. Cameron should be held to account if a single penny goes to India in aid. They have a space program. They are one of the richest nations on earth. Why cant they be forced to look after their own poor.

- Pete, Wrexham, 1/2/2012 13:02

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 01 Feb 2012 19:04

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 714642.cms

Eurofighter Typhoon: UK says will urge India to reconsider warplane decision

British Prime Minister David Cameron said on Wednesday that India's decision to choose France's Dassault Aviation over Eurofighter as preferred bidder for a $15 billion war plane contract was disappointing and he would urge India to reconsider.

"Of course I will do everything I can, as I have already, to encourage the Indians to look at Typhoon (Eurofighter) because I think it is such a good aircraft," Cameron told parliament.

"The decision is obviously disappointing but it is about who the Indians have assessed as making the lowest bid and therefore asked to enter into further negotiations. They have not yet awarded the contract," he added.

He said he did not expect any job losses in Britain as a result of the decision and said "it doesn't rule out Typhoon for India."

"We must go on making the case. This (Eurofighter) is a superb aircraft with far better capabilities than Rafale and we will try and encourage the Indians to take that view," he added.

Rafale, made by Dassault, emerged on Tuesday as preferred bidder in the contest to supply India with 126 warplanes.

While exclusive talks are not a guarantee of sale, they deal a probable knockout blow to Rafale's chief rival in India, the Eurofighter Typhoon, a fighter plane developed by a consortium of four European aviation companies --the German and Spanish branches of EADS, Britain's BAE Systems and Italy's Finmeccanica.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 01 Feb 2012 19:06

Bihanga wrote: I don't know how our government will be going to purchase this jets when we are running high fiscal and current account deficit.

yes ..that's a big concern...however..recent market sentiments have been positive...

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/mar ... 713672.cms

rupee-hits-highest-level-in-nearly-3-months

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 713827.cms

fii-inflows-cross-5-billion-in-january-scale-to-16-month-high