Rafale & MMRCA News and Discussions

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 03 Feb 2012 13:02

^^^
SS was,is and shall remain a US agent....

manum · Post by **manum** » 03 Feb 2012 13:08

I don't think so...or else this deal could have taken middle path a long ago...
It involved too much media glare to risk it...specially with constant ghosts of past...Subram... must have been waiting for L1 to shoot this pre-written letter...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 13:10

I think the letter is written to PMO long time back April 29 2011 , his twitter says end of Feb he will revel something on Rafale corruption

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2012 13:21

Austin wrote:I think the letter is written to PMO long time back April 29 2011 , his twitter says end of Feb he will revel something on Rafale corruption

Schweppes. And the UK has already said they tried to bribe us with their "Aids".

What makes me think that this is going to be a rocky ride?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2012 13:24

even if the C919 project ends up not exporting anything outside PRC, the project will help them get to next level. the GE and other techs they can get is icing on cake.

likewise we need to pull in proper partners into the NAL RTA project to avoid it becoming a low cost science project that the Saras was done as. the goal must be clear - a a/c that can sell across the world not just a NAL prototype and orientation must be on product not just science. I am afraid NAL is incapable of this and a separate SPV needs establishment staffed with people from HAL and new hires from aviation and manufacturing industry. the country has not yet made a single civilian passenger a/c on its own and it will be a great challenge to find the kind of people who can manage such programs to timely completion.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Feb 2012 13:59

Saar while you point about the civilian aviation project is valid, my point was wrt TOT and the art of deal making.

It is GE which is driving the deal making and not the Chinese. It is them that convinced commerce, defense and state departments on details of the deal. They also acknowledge that there was no Chinese pressure. All for a share of the pie worth $400 billion over the next two decade.

G.E., which said it had briefed the commerce, defense and state departments on details of the deal, acknowledges that pairing up with a Chinese firm is a delicate dance. But because the commercial aircraft market in China is expected to generate sales of more than $400 billion over the next two decades, it is not a party the company is willing to miss.

“This venture is a strategic move that we made after some thought and consideration, with a company we know,” Mr. Rice said. “This isn’t something we were forced into” by the Chinese government.

But the G.E. avionics joint venture, analysts say, appears to be the deepest relationship yet and involves sharing the most confidential technology. And G.E.’s partner, Avic, also supplies China’s military aircraft and weapons systems.

That in my opinion is the correct way. The MMRCA deal, if it goes through in its current form, will set the right expectations in all the interested capitals of the world and will spur similar (GE-Chini) deals for India in the future.

After all self-preservation is one of if not the strongest motivations for humans, corporations and countries.

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 03 Feb 2012 14:01

Austin wrote:Just got this via email from a friend ... what if its credible ?

http://janamejayan.files.wordpress.com/ ... age2b2.jpg

How genuine is that letter? Just name is mentioned without any signature.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Feb 2012 14:02

This is like Intel gifting the laptop business to China.
It is not just about money but also about making sure PRC is tech rich and just above India in term tech import

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 14:06

MN Kumar wrote:
Austin wrote:Just got this via email from a friend ... what if its credible ?

http://janamejayan.files.wordpress.com/ ... age2b2.jpg
How genuine is that letter? Just name is mentioned without any signature.

Genuine to the extent its written by Subbu and sent to PMO .... not sure how genuine is his claims thats written there.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Feb 2012 14:19

In the tender process,it is extremely unfair after the techinical evaluation is over,finalists chosen and the call for final financial bids completed,bids opened and calculated,winner announced,to have the loser who now knows what his rival bid to lower his price suitably to appear lower! The winner can then also demand the right to do the same.Unless for some huge problem where the winner cannot deliver on the promised requirements,technical and financial,and officially says so,it would be wrong to "have it on the side" with the EF team.

Coming back to BK's advice and observations on Indo-US defence deals,Ramanna is right.We cannot be agents funding US politicos through NRI's and PIOs,we'll leave that dubous distinction to the Pakis.Secondly,Govt.-to-govt. discussions and negotiations is the proper conduit and method to acquire foreign hardware.The services canot become independent "import agents" outside the MOD/MEA. One is also sure that the quoted assistance from the USN for the NLCA would've had approval from the right ministry/MOD and routed through it and not arrived at through a buddy-buddy deal! It was probably smoother using the USN instead of approaching the manufacturer.Here one must remember that the IN was reported to have sent to the US some of its aviators to train on carrier landing techniques ,as we had no current experience o the same ever since the Harrier arrived and the Alzes were retired.

As for wanting to relieve ourselves from govt-to-govt relations with Russia,what a pipe dream! One supposes that N-plants,N-subs,N-sub tech and ahost of other key JVs for weapon systems ,unavailable from the west/US arrived on Christmas from Santa Klaus! The Indo-Russin defence cooperation is the bedrock of the core capability of the armed forces,if you look at their inventories.While we pursue indigenisation alongside,which is our long-term goal,it is through JVs with Russia and now widening our base of acquisiitions and JVs,with some other nations like Israel,etc.,where we are narrowing the gap,expanding our def. tech knowhow,and step by step improving our desi design,dev.and production capabilities. One must also remember that we are Russia's most priviliged customer/partner,where even the Chinese with their bags of cash are unable to obtain cutting edge weapon systems and tech that India does,like aero-engines,carrier aircraft, and 5th-gen stealth aircraft tech,etc.

BK has reiterated in his missive above that we can never expect cutting edge US mil-tech and will thus have to satisfy ourselves with acquiring less critical systems and eqpt. which is less controversial to export like transport aircraft,etc.,until such time when there is a radical new US policy when it comes to miil exports,IF not,it will be France and Europe who will

member_20617 · Post by **member_20617** » 03 Feb 2012 14:41

We have waited for 10 years. Bribe or no bribe, we should go ahead with this deal. Some losers are trying to derail this under the pretext of bribe being paid.

Just compare with Bofors – how useful they were in Kargil war.

I think that even after the induction of 126 planes, we would still have a shortfall of 4 squadrons.

Hence India must look after its own interests.

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Feb 2012 15:12

Austin wrote:Genuine to the extent its written by Subbu and sent to PMO .... not sure how genuine is his claims thats written there.

I hope the Heads I win, Tails I win too kind of situation that has been played out here has not been missed.

If Typhoon had won then the "Italian connection" would have "surfaced". And if Frenchies won then there's the fall back unsigned letter from last year with "my sources..."

Sigh! Here we go again.

What better way to derail IAF modernisation than throw in an "unsubstantiated" allegation from "my sources". Mark my words, the next stage in this three-step process would be to whip up momentum through media and political channels. The third step would be demand cancellation.

If that's successful then the first thing that will happen is the 10 year tender process will be cancelled by this shit scared govt and particularly St Antony. And maybe after a few years the allegation would be proven false but the objective would have been fulfilled, like long range artillery don't allow the IAF to get a potent fighter which tilts the balance against China.

The games people play and the way crowds lap it up!

PS: The picture that was sent to Austin wasn't signed for a good reason. I hope folks realise why. A signed letter would have been legal evidence. SS never studied law but he could teach a thing or two to legal eagles.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 15:21

Flight Test Rafale

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... le-334383/

I wished we could have some one do a similar flight test of MKI and we could have learnt more or is the IAF too touchy about the subject.

YOURAJ · Post by **YOURAJ** » 03 Feb 2012 15:22

Sir, Scandals make stuff costlier to us and may some times we land up with less quality stuff, However it seems defence deals are never done without bribes, If we are buyer then we have control, Hope this deal will not be cancelled as 2G spectrum allotment (may not be the case as we are dealing with country not companies here)

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 15:27

On Swamy allegation , not sure if what drives Swami is his vindictive mentality towards Sonia Gandhi or he has genuine reason and proof to believe that there is some pre-arrangement and meetings of mind on Rafale.

Suffice too say any one can say any thing , MOD wont give much credibility to it unless Swami can prove it legally or has credible evidence which the opposition and media can make most from.

Rafale till such time will remain the MMRCA winner

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2012 15:37

from the flight global article - superb stuff - this thing is probably the best autonomous DPSA bird on earth...right from the day it flew 2000km from St dizier on its own to strike around benghazi declining growler SEAD missions in favour of self protection, it has been a commanding show.
---

In line astern, the refuel "RFL" DFCS switch was activated, which reduced the flight-control sensitivity and made the aircraft "feel" much more stable and conventional in response, much like a BAE Systems Hawk. With "RFL" selected, a pilot would find an in-flight refuelling probe contact to a tanker drogue to be routine.
................
The covert mode used a GPS database, but it can also use TF Radalt or the RBE2 TFR mode as back-up. Low-level ride was excellent in the gusty Mistral conditions, as was the accuracy of the TF profile followed by the aircraft over the semi-mountainous terrain, including flying towards sharply rising cliffs. The "ground watch" system painted a constantly updated escape profile floor in the HUD. With the TF engaged, Nino explained to me some more of the "data fused" symbology in the tactical HLD and altered the flight planned route and the time over target, which was then followed by the autopilot and autothrottle in speed mode.

At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us, and used the Spectra RWR to cue the FSO TV to do the same against a passing Mirage 2000 on a low-level mission.

Approaching the target, the release envelope ground "bubble" for the AASM was displayed in the tactical HLD, and "shoot" in the HUD. When within the AASM envelope, target bomb track is largely immaterial and, with the weapon button depressed and held, the five simulated programmed AASMs released to individual targets in a 0.5s separated salvo.
---

here we see a libyan grad battery opening fire at the same time a rafale is tracking it ... moments later the bombs strike home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlaZj6cyBS0

amit · Post by **amit** » 03 Feb 2012 15:39

Austin wrote:Suffice too say any one can say any thing , MOD wont give much credibility to it unless Swami can prove it legally or has credible evidence which the opposition and media can make most from.

Normally that would be the case. But one needs to remember that this Govt is already tainted with the corruption tag. The 2G spectrum allocations have been cancelled by the Supreme Court which made damning observations about a UPA minister (Raja). Then there's Anna Hazare. And don't forget the Gandhi family is scared of a Bofors redux.

If the intention is mala fide, then all it will require is a well orchestrated political campaign to get this govt to back off. Mind you the objective of this campaign has nothing to do with Raffle it's to do with dislodging the UPA govt, which is perfectly OK. The problem is it's so easy to manipulate such agitations.

There's another aspect, such allegations, if they prove to have no basis just show utter disregard to the hard work put in by the IAF, MoD babus etc to get a transparent process up and running. If you remember that article, which said EDAS was hopeful because the process was so transparent.

If this proves to be a red herring, on a personal level I will lose whatever little respect I had for SS. It would only prove he puts personal vindictiveness over national priority. Let's see how it pans out. One thing is certain, we haven't heard the last of it.

JMT and all that.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 03 Feb 2012 15:42

Fidel Guevara wrote:

If we are in a position where the US imposes long-term military sanctions on India, then the sh!t has truly hit the geostrategic fan, and we have much more major problems to deal with, i.e. an upcoming war with the US. If that is the case, whether we have 126 Rafale or 126 Eurofighter or 126 F18...we are anyway looking at 126 minutes life expectancy for the entire IAF fleet.

Mr. Fidel,

The 126 minutes is bull shit, You guys are not able to clear up the mess you started in Iraq/Afghanisthan in 12 years. Mind you this is not Iraq/Afghanisthan. BTW, when was the last when you really fought a equal adversary? WW 2 perhaps.

Dont try to threaten us. We will do whatever is in interest of our nation, All options are open with us. Missiles and nukes dont pay any heed to whether it heading towards the nation which developed them originally.

Better try gun boat diplomacy with your munna nations. We have already shown we dont give a damn about it.

If you want respect, show respect or else we dont care what/who you are...

Mods - Sorry for the OT but could not resist such threat posture. In case you still feel so, I will remove my post

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 03 Feb 2012 15:49

My Latest Photo shows (in-part) Dassault's Successful Marketing

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/ ... -rafale-b/

More here http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/05/13/dassault-rafale/

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Feb 2012 15:51

Thales Avionics Wins Big With Indian Selection of Rafale

Thales is a major player on the Rafale team. Thales reports that the company provides equipment and systems that account for approximately one third of the total value of each aircraft. The Rafale combat aircraft is equipped with the Thales RBE2 radar. Thales is currently working on an RBE2 active electronically scanned array (AESA) variant. One year ago, Thales announced that a production model RBE2 AESA radar had been validated on the Rafale aircraft. This announcement followed a three-month flight test program with an RBE2 AESA-equipped Rafale. During the test program, Dassault Aviation confirmed that all aspects of the radar's performance complied with the technical specifications of the French defense procurement agency (DGA).

The Spectra electronic warfare system for the Rafale provides identification, location, jamming, and decoying against an extensive range of electromagnetic, infra-red, and laser threats. Thales is the prime producer and integrator of Spectra; other companies provide the subsystems, such as missile warning systems and chaff/flare dispensers.

Thales also manufacturers the Damocles multi-function targeting pod. Damocles gives the Rafale day and night, all-weather, laser-guided weapon capabilities. According to Thales, Damocles' powerful laser and high resolution imagery provide the aircraft with a long stand-off range and tactical ground and air defense system survivability. Damocles is in service with French Air Force and Navy Rafale aircraft. Recent press releases have not disclosed if India will be purchasing targeting pods. India may equip a portion of its new fleet with Damocles pods.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Feb 2012 16:27

who is this beautiful woman? the shopping bags of deepam silks etc piled up indicate she directly came from MG road lol

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 16:36

Well who ever she may be the crew seems quite happy to entertain her and she is happy to climb up and stand besides the Rafale.

She is pretty though ....and so is Rafale ......now only if those guys shove off .....it would be a perfect match of French beauty with Indian one

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2012 17:06

..and the refueler probe is emboldened for a long flight!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Feb 2012 17:10

Singha wrote:who is this beautiful woman? the shopping bags of deepam silks etc piled up indicate she directly came from MG road lol

Good catch - there is another female foot to the right of the Deepam bag.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Feb 2012 17:15

Vishal Jolapara wrote:My Latest Photo shows (in-part) Dassault's Successful Marketing
http://www.airplane-pictures.net/photo/ ... -rafale-b/

More here http://vishal.jolapara.in/2011/05/13/dassault-rafale/

Vishal Excellent pics .....

.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Feb 2012 17:22

What does the orange cover, right under the refueling probe, cover? TIA.

Would be nice if they could make a retractable refueling probe for the IAF batch.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Feb 2012 17:55

India's MMRCA decision continues to create ripples

First it was the United States that got annoyed and now it is Great Britain's turn to ask some tough questions about its India policy.

Ever since the French Rafale fighter was declared the lowest bidder in the multi-billion dollar contract to provide new generation fighter for the Indian Air Force, a debate is raging in the UK as to what has gone wrong with David Cameron's charm offensive in wooing India. His visit to India in 2010 was widely viewed as a highly successful. He made all the right noises in India about Pakistan and terrorism and there was a sense that the UK-India ties finally turned a new corner.

Cameron government has also decided to give India £1.4 billion in aid between now and 2015, amounting to almost 1 per cent of Britain's own £159 billion debts. But when it came to the much sought after the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft contract, France was the winner and the Eurofighter, produced by a consortium of four nations, including Britain's BAE systems, lost. Apparently, saying right things and giving aid doesn't get you any influence in New Delhi! {Is it difficult to understand that doing the right thing is more important than saying the right thing?}

From the very beginning, this saga has been rather interesting. Last year in April, India rejected bids by Lockheed Martin and Boeing (along with Russian and Swedish bids) for the $10 billion-plus contract for 126 medium multi-role combat aircrafts, despite extensive lobbying by the US military-industrial complex, supported by President Barack Obama himself. Nothing works better in New Delhi than a put-down to the US -- and that was quite a snub indeed! Instead, New Delhi short-listed Dassault Aviation's Rafale and the Eurofighter Consortium's Typhoon. There were extensive field trials, and technical considerations ostensibly drove the final decision. But the dismay in Washington was widespread and to some extent understandable given the investment that the US has made in cultivating India in recent years.{Shouldn't the same be said of the Russians?}

As if to underscore the importance of this development, US Ambassador to India, Timothy Roemer, also decided to announce his resignation at the same time that the decision on MMRCA was being made public, though he has insisted that his resignation is related to "personal, professional and family considerations."

At a time when the political dispensation in New Delhi was embroiled in a whole host of corruption scandals, it used this decision to insulate itself from charges of favouritism towards America.

To its domestic policy critics, the government signalled that despite all the heft of the US military-industrial complex, India refused to budge. To its foreign policy critics, there was a signal that New Delhi remains in thrall to no one, not even the US. The United Progressive Alliance government had been viewed as being too cozy with the US and there were signs of discontent within the ruling Congress party itself on this score.

Some of the revelations by WikiLeaks about the pressure on New Delhi during the negotiations over the US-India civilian nuclear energy pact had put the government in a difficult position. The decision on MMRCA allowed the government to make a case that it was its own master.

The focus then shifted to the French-British rivalry over Rafale versus Eurofighter with the French coming out on top. Dassault Aviation, Rafale's French manufacturer, will be entering into commercial negotiations with India over the next few months before final deals are signed. But this is a company that has been struggling to get foreign buyers, so it would be keen on signing the contract more or less on Indian terms.{If this is true (French craft came out on top both on technical and financial parameters) shouldn't it be reason enough?} Deemed as expensive and not cutting edge, the Netherlands, South Korea, Singapore, Morocco, Brazil, the United Arab Emirates and Switzerland have all turned Rafale down in the last few years.{Forget that the assumption is wrong on the rejection being technical in nature, Hasn't it been declared the lowest bidder in this contest? Who's opinion do we go by on the tech part, IAF or these other countries AF?} India, in more ways than one, will now be subsidising the French defence sector.{Should it matter if the tech is top notch as per IAF, cost is the lowest and the French gov. guarantee on maximum possible TOT? }

India's decision was clearly influenced by the price factor as the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon is a much more expensive venture. But technology transfer was clearly another guiding factor with the tender stipulating 50 percent direct offset obligation for the winning bidder. Indian Air Force's familiarity with French Mirage 2000 aircrafts would also have helped as Rafale is operationally and technically similar to Mirage 2000. India would be buying the aircraft over 10 years with 18 Rafale jets being constructed in Dassault plants in France and 108 will be assembled by Hindustan Aeronautics in India.

Coming just before French elections in which Nicholas Sarkozy is trailing, this decision will boost his campaign. No wonder, Sarkozy was euphoric suggesting that "France is delighted at the decision by the Indian governmentIt will include important technology transfers guaranteed by the French government." At a time when major European countries are drastically cutting down their defence budgets, the defence sector needs external help to survive and the Indian decision will be a big help to France.

Dassault was quick to react, saying it is "honoured and grateful to the government and people of India." In Britain, on the other hand, there are fears of job losses at the BAE Systems which owns 33 percent of Eurofighter. The deal has been described a "major win for France, and a major loss for the UK." The UK government, at least publicly, is still hoping that New Delhi could yet reject the French offer and turn to Eurofighter.

This is India's largest defence contract at a time when India's defence modernisation has been attracting a lot of attention. The fighter levels in the IAF have dropped to an all time low of 32 squadrons compared to an official level of 39.5 and desired 42 squadrons. The IAF is desperate to replace its ageing fleet of MiG 21 fighters.

At one level, the seeming transparency of the process should indeed be heartening to those who have been puzzled by India's inability to get its defence modernisation program on track for some time now.

For a usually lackadaisical Indian ministry of defence this is a welcome change. After years of returning unspent money, the MoD last year not only managed to spend its entire budget but also asked for money to spend on capital procurement. And now with movement on MMRCA bids, it is clear that the ministry wants to move swiftly on new defence procurement, relegating its ultra-cautious approach to the sidelines.

But there is a larger question that still needs to be answered. Major defence purchases are not an end in themselves. Ideally, they should be a means of helping a nation achieve its strategic objectives. It's not readily evident what strategic objectives of India are being served by choosing Rafale over Typhoon. One can only hope that the Indian defence establishment is not missing the wood for the trees!{Wallah! How is sucking up to the English better than sucking up to the French?}

I am all for good relation with massa and its poodle but they have to step up to the plate and exceed the French.

Badar · Post by **Badar** » 03 Feb 2012 18:00

NRao wrote:Would be nice if they could make a retractable refueling probe for the IAF batch.

Is there space for that in the fuselage plus the actuators to pull/push the probe in and out? Rafale seems like a fairly dense design.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 03 Feb 2012 18:10

B. Raman on the deal

India: Back To France – OpEd

The Government of India must press ahead with its last-lap negotiations with Dassault Aviation of France for the finalisation of the definitive contract for the acquisition of 126 Rafale multi-role fighters.

Now that the decision of the Indian Air Force to go for Rafale has been announced, attempts will be made by others who failed in their bid to sell their aircraft to the IAF such as the European consortium producing the Typhoon to create confusion in the minds of the Indian political leadership and public opinion about the wisdom of the decision to choose the French aircraft.

Arms trade is a dirty business and often a Psywar is waged with no holds barred to create suspicions in the minds of the buyer about rival competitors. We had seen this dirty Psywar in the run-up to our decision to acquire a modern jet trainer aircraft. Both British and French arms dealers and their agents fought a bitter Psywar against each other by planting stories which were meant to create doubts in the mind of P. V. Narasimha Rao, the then Prime Minister.

I was in service at that time and had personal knowledge of the way stories—which ultimately turned out to be false— were planted through politicians, bureaucrats and journalists to create doubts in the minds of the decision-makers about the integrity of those involved in the decision-making and of the decision-making process itself. As a result, there was inordinate delay in signing the final contract for the purchase of advance jet trainers.

The British particularly played a very dirty game by planting suspicions in the minds of Narasimha Rao through their contacts in the Indian intelligence community. It is quite likely that history may repeat itself and a similar Psywar may again start. The only way of pre-empting and preventing it is by pressing ahead with the negotiations with Dassault Aviation and signing the final contract quickly. The longer the delay, the dirtier will be the Psywar.

Analysts have already started discussing about possible strategic collateral benefits to India as a result of the IAF’s decision to go for Rafale. Two possible benefits have been highlighted—- a greater keenness on the part of the French to step-up their co-operation with India in the nuclear and space fields and a revival of the 1970s project for co-operation between the intelligence agencies of India and France to monitor developments in the Indian Ocean in the waters to the West of India.

The credit for giving a French orientation to India’s strategic thinking should go to Indira Gandhi. Her bitter experience with the USA’s Nixon Administration during the 1971 events that led to the birth of Bangladesh and the difficulties sought to be created by the US in the way of our nuclear and space programmes after the 1974 nuclear test made her turn to France for understanding and co-operation. At her instance, R. N. Kao, the then head of the Research & Analysis Wing (R&AW), our external intelligence agency, visited France in 1974 for meetings with Le Comte Alexandre de Marenches, the then head of the French external intelligence, Michel Poniatowski, the then French Interior Minister, and Giscard d’Estaing, the then French President.

Kao’s fruitful discussions in France facilitated the co-operation between the two countries in the nuclear and space fields and led to an agreement between the external intelligence agencies of the two countries for operational co-operation to monitor developments in the Indian Ocean. Their common targets were the fleets of the US and the Soviet navies.

The intelligence co-operation progressed in fits and starts till the assassination of Indira Gandhi in October, 1984. After her death, the operational co-operation lost momentum, though intelligence-sharing continued. No other Indian political leader after Indira Gandhi and no other intelligence chief after Kao and no other intelligence chief of France after Le Comte evinced similar interest and enthusiasm for operational co-operation between the external intelligence agencies of the two countries.

The interests of both the intelligence agencies have changed since 1984. They no longer have common concerns over the activities of the US and Russian navies in the Indian Ocean. If operational co-operation—-as distinguished from intelligence sharing—is to be revived in a meaningful manner, we have to identify new areas of common concern. Two such areas are the activities of the Somali pirates and the intentions, capabilities and activities of the Chinese Navy in the Indian Ocean.

There is already a mechanism for co-operation between the Navies of India and the NATO countries to counter piracy. Joint monitoring of the activities of the Chinese Navy is a subject of common concern for India and France that has not received adequate attention till now.

In the favourable strategic ambiance that is likely to follow the Rafael contract, we should revive and intensify the pre-1984 operational co-operation in the Indian Ocean — with different targets this time. Such a project for Indo-French co-operation need not come in the way of our ongoing strategic co-operation with the US. It can supplement it.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 03 Feb 2012 18:13

Subbu Swamy's purported unsigned letter has no meaning. It could be a plant by interested parties (or influence peddlars on commission) knowing that they were losing out.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Feb 2012 18:15

IIRC - at one stage alphajet had been selected as the future trainer then rejected?

Ganesh_S · Post by **Ganesh_S** » 03 Feb 2012 20:44

whatever the case, as long as L1 is being met these allegations doesnt matter unless the eurofighter consortium raises its concerns on L1.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Feb 2012 21:18

What a turn of events...continuously fed on Tiffy diet, selection of Raffy indeed might look as a surprise...but then i guess it is from good to better.

Yes, it is very much true that this Gov promised to buy Raffy one way or other considering heavy lifting done by France in other areas. As SSwamy picked his reason that France defence dealings are known for bribes so is UK/BAe Tiffy sales to Saudi. Of course, there may be bribes involved we can't say no for sure, but implying that Tiffy consortium members are saints and only France can push dollars under the table is silly.

Eliminating Tiffy is one way good as it removed the back door entry of perceived US control.

Only the issue assumed to be with Raffy is the price and if its ok then I guess it will sail throu'. Let's see what kind of off sets it can bring to us. In another way, India is rewarding her long time friends - Russia throu FGFA and France throu MMRCA. US gets C-17 and UK those Hawk trainers. That tells the relative position of UK is this scheme of things.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 03 Feb 2012 21:26

shiv wrote:
Singha wrote:who is this beautiful woman? the shopping bags of deepam silks etc piled up indicate she directly came from MG road lol
Good catch - there is another female foot to the right of the Deepam bag.

Oh boy. The jingoes on BRF are REALLY observant, especially of a lady's foot ! Some eyesight !!!!!!
Perhaps we in BRF should start working closely with RAW (or ISI, Mossad, CIA, MI6, Savak etc)

K

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Feb 2012 22:21

Most likely MMS will go after/expose the bribe seekers(see the 2G scam) if they are there instead of cancelling the MRCA contract as was the past practice.
So dont worry.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2012 22:36

one only becomes hakim with such gifted ankhs.

--

^^yup.. and they can bring that event of lost mrca file on a dilli road/the air show bribery case.. and somehow create a scenario such that some of the fabricated missing documents were turned in by some chaiwala.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 03 Feb 2012 22:42

The financial bids were checked by the representatives of both companies before opening.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Feb 2012 23:22

Sure.. if we are opening a controversy and conspiracies, I can fake anything including representatives. bhaki sab, master card.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 04 Feb 2012 00:11

pankajs wrote:David Cameron pays price in India for poor links with Gandhi dynasty (Al-Guardian)

low grade journalism. They're now trying to find excuses for why the Typhoon didn't win, when all signals point to just the fact that it was costlier than the Rafale by a significant margin of nearly $5 million/unit. That is where they should be looking - why is the Typhoon so expensive and who is to blame for that (the truth is that the consortium approach is one of the biggest factors).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Feb 2012 00:15

The MRCA competition has revealed the self admitted wrongs that UK and others did to India!