India-US Strategic News and Discussion

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 20 Mar 2012 19:15

And he was one of the Jurors on the Ravi Case.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 19:26

- wrong forum

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 20 Mar 2012 19:31

I could not hear the audio, but if it shows he does not understand what bias intimidation is ....... *facepalm*

I am certainly glad we don't have juries in India

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 19:32

^^^^

Man the system in US is really messed up. A nearly illiterate (at least of law) person gets to decide the fate of human being on a critical matter of interpretation of law, and that too one which is so poorly drafted.

This is not law, this is a lynch mob run by worst types of prejudices.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2012 19:58

Folks I am literate but i am having some trouble understanding this case.

A 19 year old boy joins college and gets to share a room with a roommate who is homosexual. The homosexual roommate is visited by a 30 year old same-sex partner. The 19 year old sets up a webcam to see what is going on in his room. That webcam shows some scenes of the homosexuals making love.

The homosexual roommate then proceeds to commit suicide.

So how was the 19 year old implicated? Were the recorded scenes shared with others on Facebook or YouTube, or otherwise made public? There was some mention that the homosexual roommate knew that he was live on webcam.

Exactly what was the crime committed by the teenager in the land of the free and the ~~homo~~ er home of the gay?

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 20 Mar 2012 20:04

Sanku - this is an unfair assesment of the system.

Both defense and prosecution typically get input into jury selection. Most jurisdiction allow waiving the right to trial by jury, and the defendant can opt for a Judge to decide (some jurisdictions do allow the prosecution to have a say too).

Judges explain the specific law(s) that are to be applied and interpreted for the case.

Given its structure, system of appeals and checks and balances, on the whole, the US system works just fine, especially on the civil side.

The criminal end does prima-facie appear to have a racial bias, but roots of that are beyond the legal/justice system itself and are a broader reflection of American society imho.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 20:07

subodh wrote:Sanku - this is an unfair assesment of the system.
........
The criminal end does prima-facie appear to have a racial bias, but roots of that are beyond the legal/justice system itself and are a broader reflection of American society imho.

Dont look now Subodh, but you are essentially saying the exactly same thing as I am.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 20 Mar 2012 20:09

shiv wrote:So how was the 19 year old implicated? Were the recorded scenes shared with others on Facebook or YouTube, or otherwise made public?

No, they were not. No video was ever recorded.

Please read The New Yorker article about this, it gives the facts of the case quite dispassionately.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... act_parker

shiv wrote: Exactly what was the crime committed by the teenager in the land of the free and the homo er home of the gay?

The gay rights lobby wanted to punish someone for all the (actual) hate-crimes against gays that are endemic to White, Judeo-Christian towns and suburbs across the USA.

The legal system wanted to show that it would go overboard to support the gay rights lobby.

The political system wanted to placate the gay rights lobby, but didn't want to do it at the expense of angering White, Judeo-Christian conservatives in middle America.

The media wanted a lynching circus (for the headline value) with minimum backlash from ethnic or religious groups who might be offended.

Finding a brown, Indian, non-Jewish/Christian kid in this specific unfortunate situation has been a godsend for all these parties.

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 20 Mar 2012 20:14

Sanku -

I may well be - but the bias is less against indian/brown (sample size is too tiny overall) and more against the black population.

To be more specific - i do believe, in this case, racial bias, if any, played too insignificant a part as compared to the elephant in the room - the liberal agenda around sexual orientation. That drove the media frenzy, it moulded the muddled laws that were applied and it may well have guided the jury's hand. Not Ravi's skin colour.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 20:19

subodh wrote:Sanku -

I may well be - but the bias is less against indian/brown (sample size is too tiny overall) and more against the black population.

To be more specific - i do believe, in this case, racial bias, if any, played too insignificant a part.....

I would say that there is a difference in the racial bias against the two groups, in the first case that of blacks, there is overt and continuous hostility, an active racism so to say (as seen by figures of law enforcement)

In the second case, that of browns, the racism is more latent, that is no one will probably go out of their way to make a example of a brown person to ensure that all browns are under control (they already are) -- however if one of them slips even just a bit, god help him/her.

I completely agree with Rudradev-ji scenario, this mistake on Ravi's part was godsend for any number of special interest groups in US and in line with majority expectations as well.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Mar 2012 20:26

In a US criminal case the jury verdict has to be unanimous. Are you saying a black male has racial bias against an Indian. No system is perfect because it relies on human beings who are by definition imperfect. To rely on judges only is to me, from my personal experience, too scary to contemplate.

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 20 Mar 2012 20:27

US to launch website to help donate funds to Indian NGOs

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/235 ... onate.html

To ease concerns over some NGOs in India misusing foreign aid, the US is set to launch an online portal that will help Indian-Americans to safely donate funds to non-government bodies back home.

At the initiative of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, the State Department is in the final stages of launching the ambitious website.

It would change the way Indian Americans and others make donations back home at the click of a mouse rather than going through a combursome bureaucratic process and getting rid of the strain of identifying the kind of genuine NGO that would help them deliver the money and services to the targetted group.

Following months of research and series of brain-storming sessions both in India and the US, the State Department is slated to launch website in late April or early May.
"Right now there are a lot of people, who want to help, want to give back, but it's not as easy as it should be," Mitul Desai, Senior Advisor for Strategic Partnerships in the US Department of State's South & Central Asian Bureau, told PTI in an interview.
With the help of Guide Star India, the State Department is working on the website which would put together all the genuine non-governmental organisations working in various parts of India in different field, Desai said.

All these NGOs, he said, would be certified by a third party and FCRA complaint.
This is designed to make it easier for Indian Americans, in fact any Americans, to support an NGO in India, he added.

Through a user-friendly interaction, the website would help individuals sitting in the US to identify NGOs working in various regions and various field of their choice to whom they can collaborate or send money for the work they want to get done, he noted.

Entrusted with the task, 18 months ago, of engaging all non-stake actors including foundations, non-governmental organisations, private sector and the Diaspora, Desai said initially it would start with donating money online, but overtime it could be actual tangible things and services too.

Hopefully it would become a hub for education, he said."Educating Indian American community about the importance of strategic giving, strategic philanthropy. India is a very big place, when you think about giving to India, think beyond the place you came from – think broadly what India needs, how do that really need, the concept of strategic philanthropy, which I think the Indian American community can help advance," Desai said.Precise data on the amount of charitable giving to India by Indian-Americans specifically (as opposed to giving to India by major foundations like Gates Foundation) is not readily available.

The estimates of total annual giving from the United States to Indian NGOs ranges from USD300 million to USD400 million, but this includes giving by major foundations like Gates, Ford, Dell and Rockefeller.

Desai hoped that this would become a place through which a lot of donations to India are given, but not necessarily the only one.

"There are so many different ways to contribute. Ultimately the sector itself has to decide," he said adding that the State Department is just adding to the conversation and letting the donor in US and NGOs decide what is the best.

Science and technology is another area of diaspora engagement.Indian Americans from the Silicon Valley have been brought on board of the India-US Science and Technology Endowment Fund, which decides on funding to major science projects.
Working on a major health project in Tamil Nadu with private partnership, Desai said health is another major area identified given the huge potential of the Indian American community in this field.

The members in India's Upper House of parliaments have recently said that the Centre should put in place a strong surveillance network to monitor inflow of foreign funds to NGOs, besides creating a database in the interest of national security

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 20:32

^^^ Give funds to NGO's which align with US geostrategic vision and goals. How clever

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 20:32

tejas wrote:In a US criminal case the jury verdict has to be unanimous. Are you saying a black male has racial bias against an Indian. No system is perfect because it relies on human beings who are by definition imperfect.

Black male is also a part of US system, he said yes even without understanding what he was doing, that much everyone agrees, right.

Why?

If you think about it you will get what I am saying, why would a black man rubber stamp a decision without understanding it.

To rely on judges only is to me, from my personal experience, too scary to contemplate.

No doubt, there are issue with judges too, but at least no fig leaf of "trial by peers" is the case. A judge is squarely responsible for the decision.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 20:35

^^^ Reminds one of the Bob Marley song about the system

The system forces certain groups to walk a narrow path. Live like Dhimmis - pay disproportionate taxes, keep numbers down, white collar serfdom

Those who have grabbed the worlds resources (including exploiting our lands) are now gatekeepers to those resources and privilages and levy huge conditions on outside groups for access to those resources. The penalty is always higher and in this CASE a godsend because it can be buttressed against so called rights of a very fringe group. A large proportion of the so called fringe group is part of this gatekeeper group. It is just that the overlaps are not visible to all. This is a very stable situation where orchestrated fringe groups are used to penalise and punish real tribes and groups.

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 20 Mar 2012 20:42

Jarita - We still have long lines outside the visa windows at US consulates in India.

No one is forcing any Indian person to come to the US.

This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 20:45

^^^ Exactly. I was making the same observation about the larger picture.
Long lines because certain groups are now gatekeepers to resources and lands. Long lines because of the poverty in our country driven by 400 years of rape by these elite groups which then used the resources to fight their wars and build their grabbed lands.
Of course conditions are better for you than India.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 20 Mar 2012 20:46

Justice via the jury system is still prone to bias. The individuals that comprise the jury do collective decision making and know each others views over the course of the trial, isn't it.

Any group think will lead to bias and experiments have been done to even show how people as they work in groups do get influenced by what others think and suggest.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 20 Mar 2012 20:51

subodh wrote:Jarita - We still have long lines outside the visa windows at US consulates in India.

No one is forcing any Indian person to come to the US.

This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

that is why I hope the trend reverses. Today a lot more can be done in India that it was 10 years ago. In 2020 US would hardly offer anything special to Indians which cannot be done back at home . I hope that by 2030 , India has opportunities which are impossible in the US. So the long queues in the US consulate disappear .

When India matches US economically , it ll be a far better country than the present day US .

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Mar 2012 20:52

>> This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

This country offers to you because you provide valuable services to it. It is not an act of charity.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 20 Mar 2012 21:02

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

This country offers to you because you provide valuable services to it. It is not an act of charity.

In some cases I feel that US is over hyped. Frankly speaking I am not sure , why I am here myself . Majority of my engineering friends do mundane coding jobs which are aplenty even in India . Many of them chose US for research. Barely 1% of them turned up anything useful. I myself have yet to achieve anything earth shattering on that front. Echo-cardiography and coronary stenting could have well been done in India . With a lot more respect.

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 20 Mar 2012 21:03

Abhishek - i offered the same to people in India - but found no takers, and still dont. Its fine, my connections to India remain strong, I visit often, and invest a fair bit.

Dr Kakkad - indeed - i own more real estate back in Delhi than I own here. Long term, your point is well taken - though I doubt the time frame you envisage will be met - however you and i wish it was the case.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Mar 2012 21:07

>> Abhishek - i offered the same to people in India - but found no takers, and still dont.

I am not sure about your case. In many instances, India does not have enough resources to invest in high-end research. No comparison should be made between India and US in those cases.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 21:14

gakakkad wrote:
subodh wrote:Jarita - We still have long lines outside the visa windows at US consulates in India.

No one is forcing any Indian person to come to the US.

This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

that is why I hope the trend reverses. Today a lot more can be done in India that it was 10 years ago. In 2020 US would hardly offer anything special to Indians which cannot be done back at home . I hope that by 2030 , India has opportunities which are impossible in the US. So the long queues in the US consulate disappear .

When India matches US economically , it ll be a far better country than the present day US .

But why? Should the US resources not be accessible to all immigrants. Why should Indians have lesser rights than Europeans? Don't get me wrong, there may be a perfectly legit answer to that but I'd like to hear the answer/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2012 21:36

subodh wrote:Jarita - We still have long lines outside the visa windows at US consulates in India.

No one is forcing any Indian person to come to the US.

This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

In India there are long lines outside cinema halls also. If you look at other threads you will find that most people feel that long lines in India is because of inefficiency and unavailability. But in the case of the US consulate long lines seem to translate to "I am lucky and the US is good".

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 20 Mar 2012 21:41

subodh wrote:
This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

Like a lap dance by a well endowed young blond?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2012 21:45

It seems SD will setup a website to channel US funds for Indian NGOs. Off course approved NGOs!

~$300M-$400M annually goes out to Indian NGOs.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 20 Mar 2012 21:46

People are beating up a strawman here. I don't see anyone saying that the US is somehow a land of utopian fairness or without racial bias of any kind. The disagreement here, narrowly construed, is whether D.Ravi's trial and conviction was driven by racism against Indians and more broadly, whether this alleged anti-Indian racism represents a threat to the life and liberty of Indians and Indian origin people in the US.

Now - all of the hyperbolic claims of Indians living as 'Dhimmis' or 'knowing their place' is frankly pathetic and in and of itself betrays the very 'dhimmi' attitude that the posters are claiming to be against. If we were to use similar arguments in common situations seen in India today, the types of conclusions one would reach would be worse. What would that make India look like? I bet only Arundhati Roy or Pankaj Mishra would be happy with those types of descriptions.

Dharun Ravi got screwed especially with the anti-gay 'hate crime' charge. But that does not make him totally innocent. He had no business video-recording his rommmates end of their shared room. He is definitely guilty of that. Now, I'm still to be convinced as to whether his being bootstrapped with the hate crime tag was a function of a poorly written new law, the power of the gay lobby in a liberal state and a bad lawyer vs. racism.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Mar 2012 21:47

gakakkad wrote:that is why I hope the trend reverses. Today a lot more can be done in India that it was 10 years ago. In 2020 US would hardly offer anything special to Indians which cannot be done back at home . I hope that by 2030 , India has opportunities which are impossible in the US. So the long queues in the US consulate disappear .

Speaking strictly of migration for employment, looking out to 2020 (only 8 years from now), this trend is poised to intensify for a number of reasons -

1. Demographic bulge in India means that a lot more young people will be looking for work

2. Most economic activity in India will still be prone to misallocation under the jackboots of socialists (think Kapil Sibal and the Aakash tablet), and thus the country will continue to lack economic freedom.

3. Consequently, wages will stay low, due to a mismatch in the number of workers and the amount of employment available

4. More of these people will be educated, and able to work in a first world economy where wages are higher

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 21:47

Dharun Ravi should choose deportation over all other options. His life is finished in the US but karma may still have her play and who knows what he will do in 10 years.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 21:49

ramana wrote:It seems SD will setup a website to channel US funds for Indian NGOs. Off course approved NGOs!

~$300M-$400M annually goes out to Indian NGOs.

Most of these NGOs are useless. I've seen them up and close. The so called employees are flush with funds which they use for free travel to glamourous places when teleconferencing will do, entertainment, long vacations etc. Many get US salaries. This is such crap.

subodh · Post by **subodh** » 20 Mar 2012 21:53

Altair - you say it like its a bad thing. And by the way, that was available in India even in the mid 90s, when i used to work in New Delhi. You just needed to know where to look.

Abhishek - no, I am not into research. I work in the financial industry, doing some (relatively) obscure stuff that happens to be impossible to do in the scale I do it, back in India. Its a skill, it adds value to my customers, but Indian rules and regulations will not allow it there - while its been a good deal for my employer and myself here.

Rangudu - succintly put. Much better than I could have.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Mar 2012 21:57

gakakkad wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:>> This country offers a lot - and for me personally, let me do things that would have been impossible back in India.

This country offers to you because you provide valuable services to it. It is not an act of charity.
In some cases I feel that US is over hyped. Frankly speaking I am not sure , why I am here myself . Majority of my engineering friends do mundane coding jobs which are aplenty even in India . Many of them chose US for research. Barely 1% of them turned up anything useful. I myself have yet to achieve anything earth shattering on that front. Echo-cardiography and coronary stenting could have well been done in India . With a lot more respect.

Kakkadji when I was in my 30s I found myself with medical degrees from two countries and decided that one more in the US would be a waste of time. I returned to India although I was sponsored for immigration to the US by a first degree relative. I was past 50 when I got the call for an interview to get a "Green Card" that was worth more than gold to members of my family and peers in the 1970s and 80s.

Being settled in India I was able to weigh my options mainly because people urged me that my children might benefit. But the post 2000 USA is not the golden USA of the 1970s. In the 1970s doctors were featured in Life magazine as the richest professionals. My family and friends who were engineers easily got assistantships in Universities and settled in with little difficulty. Education was less expensive and no one was burdened by huge loans.

Nowadays education costs a bomb. Indians, with their dharmic ways insist on paying for their children's expensive education. Even my rich doctor classmates in the US complain about how much they have to shell out for their children's education. For a person like me, the equivalent money in India can be invested in ways that earn me a handsome income.

Another factor that I considered was the fact that "green card" nowadays means that I have to either live in the US or keep visiting every 6 months. If I look at society as a pyramid, I find that my personal status in India is closer to the top of the societal pyramid in the things I get to do and the people I meet. A shift to the US would put me right at the bottom of the societal pyramid. And my wife, who runs her own business told me "Balls. You go. Don't involve me in this"

For me the choice of rejecting the Green card call was a no brainer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Mar 2012 22:00

You guys need to get ready for the post modern, post Westhphalian state.

We can already see the nation-state transforming to contigous economic zones (armed with nukes) with peripheral jahliya lands. Economic prosperity depends on hard working intellect to take advantage of opportunities and connections. The world economic center of gravity is shifting back from Europe and its extensions to Asia. With the largest pool of high IQ individuals we need to be flexible and capable of being the next economic kabila like the gypsies of yore who were the land trade pioneers. The development of sea routes devasted them along with religious and racial intolerance.

So dont be too hard and rigid about the permanance of any power. Only the kabila survives.

Note the 1965 Immigration Act is what opened up the borders for Indian immigration. The 3M strong community is really an economic gypsy kabila in US. It might be uprooted and driven out. Be ready for change all the time.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Mar 2012 22:02

Rangudu wrote:Dharun Ravi got screwed especially with the anti-gay 'hate crime' charge. But that does not make him totally innocent. He had no business video-recording his rommmates end of their shared room. He is definitely guilty of that. Now, I'm still to be convinced as to whether his being bootstrapped with the hate crime tag was a function of a poorly written new law, the power of the gay lobby in a liberal state and a bad lawyer vs. racism.

Reading up on this, there is disagreement even over whether privacy can be expected in such cases within the political spectrum. The Republican candidate Santorum for one takes the position that sexual activity cannot be considered private for two reasons - a) there is no constitutional right to privacy and b) not having the right to privacy is what allows the government to prosecute incest and polygamy

If that is the basis of the conviction, the case should end up before the local Supreme Court I'd think given the constitutional issue involved.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Mar 2012 22:07

Rangudu wrote: If we were to use similar arguments in common situations seen in India today, the types of conclusions one would reach would be worse. What would that make India look like? I bet only Arundhati Roy or Pankaj Mishra would be happy with those types of descriptions.

Rangudu-ji; as Shiv has been trying very hard to explain in the "inferiority" thread in GDF, the above precisely is the case. The Indians did not turn Dhimmi when they went to US. The Indian class being talked about are Dhimmi to a great extent in India too.

And yes, they let India be a play ground of Pankaj Mishras and Arundhati Roys of the world.

That is what is.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 20 Mar 2012 22:08

Jarita wrote:
ramana wrote:It seems SD will setup a website to channel US funds for Indian NGOs. Off course approved NGOs!

~$300M-$400M annually goes out to Indian NGOs.

Most of these NGOs are useless. I've seen them up and close. The so called employees are flush with funds which they use for free travel to glamourous places when teleconferencing will do, entertainment, long vacations etc. Many get US salaries. This is such crap.

oh! yes..I was shocked when a young cousin of mine described the first class travel, car waiting at the village, chai biscuit with BDO, headman, separate house to stay etc. when working on "up-lifting the life of women in Indian villages" for some charity organizer. And there I was, a donor to similar orgs, traveling by train or economy class flights even when on business trips (I was working for an MNC).

Basically need to look deeper into who you donate to, or go work for one of these orgs...

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 20 Mar 2012 22:13

^^^ Look at their overheads - how much of your rupee goes to the end beneficiary.
The smaller NGO's are much better and more reliable.
The Ramakrishna missions, Iskons etc do much better work and take very little for themselves. Check out Ekal Vidya as well.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 20 Mar 2012 22:19

subodh wrote: Abhishek - no, I am not into research. I work in the financial industry, doing some (relatively) obscure stuff that happens to be impossible to do in the scale I do it, back in India. Its a skill, it adds value to my customers, but Indian rules and regulations will not allow it there - while its been a good deal for my employer and myself here.

Whether India should change her rules in the financial sector is debatable and controversial (particularly after the 2008 financial crisis.) You might want to discuss this issue in the e-con thread with e-con people.

member_23061 · Post by **member_23061** » 20 Mar 2012 22:22

Problem with India is that the reformation is not taking place fast enough, if it did ..... those lines next to the US consulate would dry up.

In medicine there is a acute scarcity of Post Graduate seats. This has turned into a battle of survival to get a seat for young medicos. Even if you get a rank, you need to get a high enough rank to get a specialty of your choosing else you have to settle down with what you get or risk another year of your life. Or .... you can avoid all this if you pay nearly 1 c or more, approximately 200,000 $.

Other professions are doing better, but our education system is still stuck in a rut.