Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP) : 24 July 2012

[BijuShet]

from Tribune (article posted in full).
No money, no trips: chess federation

By Natasha Raheel - Published: September 1, 2012
Pakistan squad received invitations from Azerbaijan, Iraq and Nepal for Grandmaster events.PHOTO: FILE
KARACHI: The Pakistan Chess Federation (PCF) has refused to send 13-time national champion Mehmood Lodhi to three international events due to lack of funds.

Lodhi, part of the Pakistan squad at the ongoing World Chess Olympiad, received invitations from Azerbaijan, Iraq and Nepal for Grandmaster events starting from September 18 and wanted the PCF to sponsor his trip. However, federation president Altaf Ahmed Chaudhry turned down the request as was not able to provide the funds.

“Lodhi is a seasoned players but we need to promote chess all over the country and not just with one person,” Chaudhry told The Express Tribune. “We’ve sent him to the Olympiad anyway but can’t help him participate in these three events.

“We need to promote other players. India has 18 grandmasters, Bangladesh has four, we have none. So it’s time to work on other players too.”

Meanwhile, Lodhi said he needed to participate in these events in order to become the first grandmaster from Pakistan. He has also been asked to coach children in Nepal but, again, funding the trip remains a worry for the player.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 1st, 2012.

[BijuShet]

from Tribune (article posted in full).
Allaying concerns: ‘Nuclear programme not at risk from foreign investment’

By Shahbaz Rana - Published: August 31, 2012
Negotiator says a clause in draft Pak-US investment treaty addresses essential security. PHOTO: FILE

ISLAMABAD: The Strategic Planning Division (SPD) of Pakistan has expressed concerns over the security of the country’s missile and nuclear programmes, if opened to foreign investment, but the issue has been addressed in a draft of the Pak-US Bilateral Investment Treaty (BIT), said the country’s top negotiator.

“The SPD had concerns that the sovereignty of the country should not be compromised and this issue has been taken care of through the insertion of a clause in the treaty which deals with essential security,” said Chairman Board of Investment (BOI) and chief negotiator from Pakistan Saleem Mandviwalla during a briefing on Thursday on the outcomes of Pak-US talks held to finalise the much-delayed treaty.

According to a draft of the treaty under negotiation, Pakistan is willing to allow foreign investment in all sectors, including defense and nuclear technology. There is also no restriction on foreign nationals serving in executive positions in firms, irrespective of the sector they are involved in.

Foreign investment in defense

China and France have already invested in Pakistan’s defense and Islamabad also “welcomes US investment in the same,” Mandviwalla said.

He added though that permission will be required for investment in arms and ammunition and nuclear programmes.

Although these sectors are not excluded from investment, Pakistan will exercise its right to deny investment through non-conforming measures (NCMs), he said. NCMs are standards and laws that each country has to observe for bringing in any investment, he said.

Mandviwalla said that talks on the text of the treaty have concluded but the NCMs have not yet been agreed upon. They will not be part of the main text but will be annexure with the treaty, he said.

Article 18

The chairman also highlighted the article of the treaty which deals with security concerns.

According to Article 18, “nothing in this treaty shall be construed (1) to require a party to furnish or allow access to any information the disclosure of which it determines to be contrary to its essential security interests or (2) to preclude a party from applying measures that it considers necessary for the fulfillment of its obligations with respect to the maintenance of restoration of international peace or security.”

This article is not unique to Pakistan, as article 18 is a standard clause in every treaty that the US has signed with other nations.

Foreign executives

On foreign executives, the BOI chief said that foreign nationals can be appointed to senior management positions by the US firms, but insisted that their clearance will have to be obtained from security agencies.

“Pakistan’s security agencies have nothing concrete to establish they really have any concern while reviewing clearance applications of foreign executives,” he said.

Other issues

Mandviwalla said that the issues related to paid-up capital for opening bank branches and companies’ registration fees in Pakistan were also resolved.

He added that the BOI will soon send the summary to the Cabinet for approval of the treaty.

Unlike Pakistan, the US has stated that the talks have not concluded as certain issues still remain unresolved.
Published in The Express Tribune, August 31st, 2012.

[BijuShet]

from Tribune (article posted in full).
How far will Islamabad go to attract US investors?

By Shahbaz Rana - Published: August 30, 2012
Bilateral investment treaty under discussion opens all sectors to foreign investment, including defence. PHOTO: FILE

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is keen on getting American investment, but how far is Islamabad willing to go for the investment dollar?

Quite far, if the draft of a bilateral investment treaty (BIT), currently under negotiations, is to be believed.

The extraordinary leverages being negotiated under the BIT include foreign investment in all sectors, and that does not exclude defence under the current draft, and foreigners, regardless of their nationality, filling senior management positions in these foreign ventures.

Both Washington and Islamabad have been locked in discussions over the treaty for the last three days and hope that talks will continue, according to senior officials of the American negotiating team.

Foreign senior management

In a background briefing to a select group of journalists, senior visiting US officials said the “investors can choose senior management without regard to nationality.”

This would be a departure from the existing practice under which intelligence agencies grant a no-objection certificate (NOC) for allowing foreigners to work at senior positions in Pakistan.

Currently, intelligence agencies have denied NOCs to roughly 200 people on security concerns, according to the Board of Investment (BOI) officials.

On the issue of appointment of executives by US firms from countries hostile towards Pakistan, the BOI said “the country’s security will not be compromised at any cost.”

To another question, the US officials said there will be no restriction on investment in any sector, except government procurements.

US firms can invest in both, manufacturing and services sectors, officials said.

Contents of the treaty

While the US officials largely remained tightlipped over the contents of the treaty, according to a legal document duly signed by both countries and available with The Express Tribune, “each party shall accord to investors of the other party treatment no less favorable than that it accords … to its own investors with respect to the establishment, acquisition, expansion, management, conduct, operation, and sale or other disposition of investments in its territory.”

The treaty will also ensure that no state can expropriate or nationalise the assets and investments covered under the treaty. There will also be no ban on exports, imports and there will be no condition of achieving a given level or percentage of domestic content. The host country also cannot force the investor to transfer the technology.

Nuclear investments

Would the Americans be able to invest in the country’s nuclear industry?

Yes, according to BOI officials, but only in civil nuclear technology including nuclear power production.

The US team had meetings with the officials of Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission and Conventional and Open Programme Directorate of Strategic Planning Division, according to the BOI officials.

The US officials, however, refused to share details of their meetings.

Conclusion of the treaty

While commenting on the likely conclusion of the bilateral treaty, the US officials said the negotiations were at the final stage but nothing can be said about the signing of the treaty.

Pakistan, however, announced on Wednesday that the treaty will be finalised on the sidelines of the United Nations General Assembly session, scheduled for September.

The US officials said both the sides were in the process of finalising ‘non-confirming measures’ that include non-discriminatory treatment to investors, basic investment protection from minimum standards and access to respective markets.

Published in The Express Tribune, August 30th, 2012.

[Nandu]

Ayaz Amir reports from the scene with more or less full details of how Rimsha was accused of blasphemy and arrested.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-9 ... -the-march

[Rangudu]

Mr. Muntazir is currently affiliated with a think tank at which he offers advice on terrorism-related issues, including the Lashkar; {Which think-tank is that ? American ?}

Why would this joker be in a US think-tank? Actually, his organization is more like a septic tank than a think-tank. It's a wee bit more sophisticated than the usual ISI/Pakjabi/Ahmed Quraishi type set ups, but it's as fake as it comes. See for yourself

It's all a part of ISI efforts to "mainstream" LeT figures while letting the Sajid Mir types plot attacks in the background.

[Prem]

Exploring prospects : Female entrepreneurs’ delegation leaves for India

Rajesh's dream come true

ISLAMABAD: A 17-member delegation of Pakistani women entrepreneurs left for India through the Wagah Border here on Friday on a seven-day visit for a dialogue with their men counterparts on issues including bilateral trade, non-tariff barriers and visa policy.The delegation under the leadership of Islamabad Women’s Chamber of Commerce and Industry (IWCCI) Founder President Samina Fazil will also explore opportunities.Apart from a series of meetings, the delegation is also scheduled to participate in expos and conferences including 12th Global Conference on ‘Trade Liberalisation and its Global Impact on Women Entrepreneurs’ scheduled at New Delhi on September 3, 4 and 5.Talking to media before leaving, Fazil, flanked with adviser to IWCCI Malik Sohail Hussain, expressed hope that progress would be achieved during the visit. She said that efforts are being made for the growth and promotion of trade and economic activities and the establishment of peace between the two countries.In this regard meetings with the officials of International Federation of Women Entrepreneurs, PHD Chamber of Commerce and industry and the Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry will be fruitful, she said.Fazil said that women entrepreneurs will have exposure and capacity building opportunities and they will be able to bridge gap among businesswomen of India and other countries.They will find a good international platform to promote their business through one women to two men networking, she added.We will also inform Indian businessmen about sentiments of Pakistani business community regarding the most-favoured nation status to India. “We would be representing fair image of Pakistan,” she said.

[MurthyB]

from Tribune (article posted in full).
No money, no trips: chess federation

By Natasha Raheel - Published: September 1, 2012
Pakistan squad received invitations from Azerbaijan, Iraq and Nepal for Grandmaster events.PHOTO: FILE
KARACHI: The Pakistan Chess Federation (PCF) has refused to send 13-time national champion Mehmood Lodhi to three international events due to lack of funds.

Lodhi, part of the Pakistan squad at the ongoing World Chess Olympiad, received invitations from Azerbaijan, Iraq and Nepal for Grandmaster events starting from September 18 and wanted the PCF to sponsor his trip. However, federation president Altaf Ahmed Chaudhry turned down the request as was not able to provide the funds.

“Lodhi is a seasoned players but we need to promote chess all over the country and not just with one person,” Chaudhry told The Express Tribune. “We’ve sent him to the Olympiad anyway but can’t help him participate in these three events.

“We need to promote other players. India has 18 grandmasters, Bangladesh has four, we have none. So it’s time to work on other players too.”

Meanwhile, Lodhi said he needed to participate in these events in order to become the first grandmaster from Pakistan. He has also been asked to coach children in Nepal but, again, funding the trip remains a worry for the player.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 1st, 2012.

Lodhi is wajib ul cattle material as chess is haram in izlam. Pakistan is the land of pure muslims, so not having any grandmasters in a haram game invented by yindoo kuffar should be a cause for ak-phyrrring.

[kshatriya]

^^ Well the Country itself was created by a Kaffir Shiite...Don't know what the Pures feel about that

[MurthyB]

^^ Well the Country itself was created by a Kaffir Shiite...Don't know what the Pures feel about that

They don't need to feel anything about that. In fact, they probably feel good that a kuffar was made to create a country for pure muslims, since it shows kuffar accepting the superiority of muslims. As long as the cause of islam is advanced, all ij vell. Too bad he was only a shiite, and not a jew, or yindoo.

[Dipanker]

Too late, the TTP has already displayed the chopped off heads. Paki need more Islam!

Fifteen Pakistani troops missing after clashes: officials

KHAR: Pakistani security officials said Friday that 15 troops were missing following fighting with militants in the country’s northwestern Bajaur tribal region three days ago.

The clashes on Tuesday came as part of a Pakistan army operation to repel Taliban militants who had crossed over from Kunar province in Afghanistan last Friday and occupied the village of Batwar in the Bajaur tribal agency.

“At least 15 of our soldiers are still missing,” a senior security official told AFP.

Another security official said “more or less” that number of soldiers were missing but declined to give the exact total.

[arun]

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a country claimed to have been created as a safe haven for the Mohammadden’s of the Indian Sub-Continent, the Mohammadden Sabbath of Friday notwithstanding claims of Mohammaddenism being “the religion of peace”, yet again sees Green on Green Intra-Mohammadden violence.

What is it about Mohammadden Sabbath of Friday that causes such the day to see such frequent demonstrations of the IEDology of Pakistan?:

Targeted attack: Car bomb kills 11 in Peshawar market

[SSridhar]

Too late, the TTP has already displayed the chopped off heads. Paki need more Islam!

Fifteen Pakistani troops missing after clashes: officials

Also,from this,

". . . . you see 12 heads here, and more heads are on the way," he {TTP spokesman Sirajud Din} said.

The attacks on the PA are picking up these days.

[ramana]

Nightwatch, 30 Aug.,2012

Pakistan-India: Last week the Amir of the Jammat ud Dawah (JuD),Hafiz Muhammad Saeed, said in his end of Ramadan, Eid al Fitr message that was posted on Facebook that India will not be able to hold onto Kashmir any longer than America is present in Afghanistan.

He did not explain his meaning, but the threat to India is plain. The JuD is the front organization for the Lashkar-e-Taiba, which is one of the most extreme and dangerous Islamic terror groups.

Comment: The US has placed a $10 million bounty on Saeed for his role in masterminding the 26 November 2008 terrorist attacks and bombings in Mumbai, India. The UN considers him a terrorist, but Pakistan does not.

While the implied threat against India after US forces leave Afghanistan probably is bravado, it is a threat that must be taken seriously in light of the Mumbai attacks. This is the first statement by a terrorist leader that linked the US fight in Afghanistan with the security of India.

Through all the turmoil in Afghanistan and Pakistan since 2001, India has been steady. It is the only continuous democracy east of Israel and west of South Korea since its independence. It has reduced the Kashmir insurgency to a police problem and has not taken advantage of Pakistani internal troubles to cause even worse stress.

Nevertheless, India's leaders also are extraordinarily difficult for Americans to deal with. The Indians actually practice their variation of George Washington's advice to avoid foreign entanglements in that they are rigorously non-aligned. Just ask the Russians.

Nevertheless, the ripple effects of the US intervention in Afghanistan is that India, not Pakistan, could become the next, primary target of intensified South Asian Islamic terrorist attacks.


With luck, someone in the Pentagon, at least, is thinking about how the ripple effects of a US and NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan might affect the security of India. .

As for Pakistan, it is only a small exaggeration to suggest that the Pakistani Taliban would have attempted to take over the government in Islamabad long before now, but for the presence of a US and Western field army in Afghanistan.

After US and allied forces leave Afghanistan, Pakistan will become fair game for the Islamists. Most Pakistan Army soldiers and officers below the rank of brigadier already are Islamists, so the Army is unreliable.

The message is that the US combat forces in Afghanistan have helped protect, indirectly, the elected governments of Pakistan and India, but that protection is coming to an end. That matches what happened in Southeast more than a generation ago. The US fight in Vietnam gave the other countries of Southeast Asia a chance to defend themselves and to develop their economic and political strength.

Pakistan has not taken advantage of the opportunity the US has afforded Pakistan's elite, secular political forces to make Pakistan more stable and safer. As a result, after the US forces leave Afghanistan, India becomes a frontline state in the fight against Islamic extremism. That is how the law of unforseen consequences works.

Is he nuts or is he threatening India? India has been the frontline against fighting Islamist extremism since before Independence.
And it was UK and then US that have been supporting the religious extremists and holding back Indian retaliation since then

[SSridhar]

It's all a part of ISI efforts to "mainstream" LeT figures while letting the Sajid Mir types plot attacks in the background.

True. May be, this guy will form a political wing as is the practice among terror outfits which also create a political unit with some of their members professing a false peace to mislead everybody while the parent outfit continues with its activities unabated.

Why would this joker be in a US think-tank?

A couple of years back, a much bigger joker and a much, much bigger terrorist going by the name of Musharraf, was offered a job in a Philadelphia-based think-tank headed by Wendy Chamberlain. So, nothing surprises me especially when it comes to US (and India).

[nakul]

He is still deluding himself with the typical American propoganda that American presence in Afghanistan is making the world safer. Perhaps he should be reminded that American presence in Afganistan is the ruse used by Pakistan to pay for the 'good militants' which is indirectly funded by the US.

The surge in militancy is also related to Pakistan's financial health. The law of unintended consequences might just make the global economic crisis be the cause of reduced militancy. Even Unkil has to count his coins these days.

[hulaku]

Meanwhile the Shia Genocide continues in the wretched Pureland

Seven gunned down in Quetta

QUETTA: Gunmen dragged seven passengers off a bus and killed them at point blank range on Saturday morning, DawnNews reported.

The attack happened in Quetta’s Hazar Ganji area. According to police, the incident took place near Sabzi Mandi at 9 am in Hazar Ganji.

All seven deceased belonged to Hazara community.

http://dawn.com/2012/09/01/five-gunned-down-in-quetta/

[SSridhar]

Meanwhile the Shia Genocide continues in the wretched Pureland
Seven gunned down in Quetta

Lashkar-e-Jhangvi is on a spree these days.

[SSridhar]

Meanwhile, the bird droppings kill 6 more in North Waziristan

A senior security official told AFP that several drones were flying in the area at the time of the attack.

[rajanb]

This has been a really productive friedin. I could not help but notice that it is also a full moon Friedin.

28th Dec is the next one. Sooo far away

Must keep that in mind.

[anupmisra]

This has been a really productive friedin. I could not help but notice that it is also a full moon Friedin.

Correction: This Eid, it was a blue moon. Wait till the moon is green. That's when mayhem and chaos take over.

[nvishal]

.......

[shiv]

I was watching Asha Bahawalpurkar er Bhosle with some Paki singers yesterday and it suddenly struck me that Aman ki Asha is a Paki elite to Indian elite thing. It is an advantage for the Paki elte. It helps some (but not all) the Indian elite. Mango Indian has nothing.

[sadhana]

Sadhana! Welcome to BR

In 1945 after end of second world war, Churchill (before he lost election) wanted to secure the strategic interests of Britain in Indian subcontinent for which he wanted some strategic military bases in India close to Iran (which was under Soviet Union protection in world war II) and for which he asked Nehru, Patel and Gandhi. All three Indian leaders rejected the proposal but Jinnah who was already against the three Indian leaders accepted the proposal if Pakistan was created. Thus Pakistan is nothing but a place to protect the strategic interests of Britain and America.
Please watch this

Thanks. I did watch the video and look forward to Tarek Fatah's book(IIRC, he is writing one on the subject).

IMO, Jinnah's desire was to settle scores with Gandhi (whom he hated for personal reasons) and Nehru whom he regarded as unworthy of being even compared with but whom he had to deal with due to prevailing circumstances.

Yes. IMO, Jinnah hated Gandhi for being his rival for influence with the British, like other Congressis had never been before. IMO, like Churchill, Jinnah considered any mass following of Indian leaders, particularly Congress mass following to be fakery and fraud. Churchill said in 1935 (Durga Das)

" We have as good a right to be in India as anyone there except, perhaps, the Depressed Classes, who are the original stock. Our Government is not an irresponsible government. It is a government responsible to the Crown and the Parliament. It is incomparably the best Government that India has ever seen or ever will see. It is not true to say that the Indians, whatever their creed, would not rather have their affairs dealt with in many cases by British courts and British officers than by their own people, especially by people of the opposite religion."

In 1939 Jinnah said to the British(Narendra Singh Sarila)

'The Hindus were not capable of running a government as we will find for ourselves before we had finished.'

But the Muslims of course were. Jinnah said in 1942(Speeches and Statements, Khurshid Yusufi)

..Congress leaders have now started foreign propaganda. According to them the Congress is fighting purely from an altruistic point of view and does not wish to have any share in the authority and power of the government; the government of India may be handed over to the Muslim League and they will willingly accept Muslim raj rather than British raj. What is most amazing is the fact that Mr. Gandhi has endorsed such individual utterances.

Too Good
In the first place no intelligent man can believe the sincerity of such a desire, for it is too good to be true. But if they are sincere, I should welcome it. If the British Government accepts the solemn recommendation of Mr. Gandhi and by an arrangement hands over the government of the country to the Muslim League, I am sure that under Muslim rule non Muslims would be treated fairly, nay, generously: and further the British will be making full amends to the Muslims by restoring the government of India to them from whom they had taken it. I am sure Muslims would welcome such a decision on the part of the British Government...

I think Jinnah shared Churchill's opinion - that most Indians, particularly Hindus could not rule themselves. The fact that you BRF haters with no complexion, lineage, foreign education or wealth to overcome your natural disadvantages still have a vote and deign to speak up on national and international affairs with your dhotis flapping would (IMO) be disliked equally by Churchill and Jinnah as trickery by bad rulers to rob good rulers of their right to rule Gandhi was also a pretender claiming to speak up for rest of such pretenders.

This was his accommodation with the Deobandis and Wahhabis. His promise to the Pir of Manki Sharif to implement shariah in Pakistan was his accommodation with the Sufi Berelvis. The Raja of Mahmoodabad, his closest adviser, was a Shi'a. The point is that he promised an Islamist governance to the various sects. I believe that Jinnah was reckless and that bothered him in the least, though that satisfied his ego immensely, because he knew what he was getting Pakistan into and yet went ahead with it because he was aware that he would not live long enough to face the consequences as he was dying due to TB & Cancer.

Yes, quite possible. He probably calculated, the more Islamised the expectations of Pakistanis, the farther would they move from the rest of India, including Congress, 'ideologically', and the safer Pakistan would be from re-integration.

[RamaY]

Self delete

[darshhan]

Too late, the TTP has already displayed the chopped off heads. Paki need more Islam!

Fifteen Pakistani troops missing after clashes: officials

Also,from this,

". . . . you see 12 heads here, and more heads are on the way," he {TTP spokesman Sirajud Din} said.

The attacks on the PA are picking up these days.

Sridhar ji, This is an interesting development. Because previously only frontier corps was being targeted. This also shows degradation wrt tactical performance on the part of Pakistani Army which only points to poor training and leadership.It is now increasingly clear that they are seriously lacking in small unit tactics like Patrolling and setting up a defensive position.They are also unable to generate adequate intelligence which is a must to defeat counter insurgency.And I am not even talking about hearts and mind mission(Reverse is a speciality of Pakistani Army). Also from these incidents it seems that Pakistani Army is unable to provide its troops adequate reinforcements in time leading to whole squads being wiped out. Now it is squads, next it will be platoons.

Important point is that Pakistani Army has completely failed as far as counter insurgency and counter terrorism is concerned. Their lack of adatabilty and hollowness is slowly but steadily becoming visible to the rest of the world. And in 21st century any military which is unable to adapt rapidly will face irrelevance.

[CRamS]

Aman-ki-asha is a Social preparation for mass exodus of Paki elites. Indian society is being slowly but surely made immune to Paki presence in media, entertainment and business fields. The next phase will be JVs in these fields followed by pure Paki owned and operated organizations in these fields.

I venture to predict a pure paki owned media outlet to cater Indian minorities within 5-10 years.

If such an outcome comes about as out as you predict, then can you call the entity in which this happens as India as we know it? Or will India as we know it will disintegrate into a loose federation of "South Asian" states? Unless India develops some form of Hindu nationalism with genuine secular safeguards built in, and Indians are willing to collectively stand up for a cause, I see a distinct possibility of this latter outcome as the final denouement of TSP's and its 3.five's relentless assault on India's nationhood.

[RamaY]

Self delete

[johneeG]

Aman-ki-asha is a Social preparation for mass exodus of Paki elites. Indian society is being slowly but surely made immune to Paki presence in media, entertainment and business fields. The next phase will be JVs in these fields followed by pure Paki owned and operated organizations in these fields.

I venture to predict a pure paki owned media outlet to cater Indian minorities within 5-10 years.

If such an outcome comes about as out as you predict, then can you call the entity in which this happens as India as we know it? Or will India as we know it will disintegrate into a loose federation of "South Asian" states? Unless India develops some form of Hindu nationalism with genuine secular safeguards built in, and Indians are willing to collectively stand up for a cause, I see a distinct possibility of this latter outcome as the final denouement of TSP's and its 3.five's relentless assault on India's nationhood.

I had posted a few thoughts on similar topic in Apr, 2012:

I had a theory for sometime now. Pakis are going down the drain. And they know it. The west along with Pakis have tried all methods to stop India's rise. They have failed to a large extent. Of course, without west or pakis, India would have been the top player. Anyway, the fact that India is rising despite all their tries is a testimony to the failure of pakis and west.

Now, we have two points. Pakis are going down, India is rising up. Further, even the west(particularly Europe) is also going down. Infact, pakis are going down because west is not able to piggyback pakis proportionate to India's rise.

So, what is the next option for them?

If you can't beat it, join it. And work internally.

So, the pakis may want to join India in future(say a decade or two).

In a decade or two, position of pakis will be much worse. Their provinces will be so much more on the path of secession. Already, many parts of pak are not really under pak. The federal system is creating new warlords who will act more independently.

So, pakis can float a proposal of undoing the partition. The pakjabis can again become representatives of all the muslims of paklands(including the Bdesh) and bargain on behalf of them. Pakis may place some pre-conditions for this like separate electorates for muslims, or autonomy or something on the lines of article 370...etc.

The carrot for India is the possibility of 'akhand Bhaarat'. The carrot for 'secular' parties of India is the possibility of bigger vote bank. The carrot for pakis is to get the pie of Indian development and of course, green flag on red fort through taqqiyya. The carrot for the west is to use the pakis to hamper India internally.

Ironically, 'the rightwing nuts' maybe the only ones opposed to this project. The secular media will go after them for opposing this extra-ordinary reunion.

In 1947, the Indian ummah dreamers were divided into 2 groups. One group believed that they needed a separate land from where they could launch attacks and subjugate the whole India. Another group believed that it was better to stay within India and try to take it over.

Both the groups followed their opinion. After so many years, it seems the first group has failed in their goals. So, they may come around to accepting the view of the second group.

The essential point is that if one cannot make India part of Ummah, then lets make ummah part of India.

PS: I am unable to articulate all that is in my mind properly. Hope, you guys can get what I am trying to say.

JohneeG Garu,

I agree with your two points. I think they are true. But I don't know them joining India under conditions of art 370 etc with separate electorate just because them joining Bharat would mean Akhand Bharat would be a good idea. The reason is they are like Sakuni of Mahabharat, they will make every attempt to break the whole from within. It would be difficult to manage internal enemies raging mad, that will only increase with their segregation and pacification with separate electorate etc. if TSP is a failing nation, and they have a need to save something, H&D or whatever is left, then the need is theirs not ours to compromise.
Just my thoughts.

The need is, indeed, theirs. And it is precisely for this reason that they may want to join India. They will do that only when they think that they have no other option. And soon, such time may come.

But, it will be sold as the best solution to India-Pak crisis...the ultimate love-making...greatest re-union...triumph of secularism...victory of peace over war....return of lost younger brother into the family....the greatest moment for Indian nation. In such a great time, people would preach that India should not be too hung up on few conditions placed by pak. After all, when pakis are ready for making such a big sacrifice, shouldn't India also do something.

From an anti-Indian perspective, the first gain of such union would be to demand that India roll back its military program. Now that there is no pakistan threat, India does not need nukes, mijjiles, ...etc.

Of course, the pakis can take a leaf out of the commie book and play the double game within India.

Pakhanis will never join India under the current dispensation. And India will not accept them. They have spent decades in rivalry with India but that has not taken them far. The best they can do is to stop rivalry. The problem is that "rivalry with India" itself has been used for Paki unity. No rivalry and the unity itself gets upset.

But that is something they have to work out.

Why would India not accept them? Who or what would oppose and what are the points of opposition? As I understand, the principle opposition will come from those parties that fear the demographic increase of minorities. While, those parties that stand to gain by such demographic increase will support the merger.

As I understand, the only thing that is true of the Pakis is that they care for only themselves. Everything else is pretensions. So, if and when, they see that joining India is the only way to keep themselves in power, they will do so in a blink of an eye.

The oligarchy and feudals who have been power for long in Pak may bargain for such a merger with some conditions that will perpetuate their hold on power.

The main reason for merger may be that the descend of pakis into chaos becomes unmanageable. It becomes unmanageable because their maibaaps are not able to piggyback them.

Infact, you have nailed it when you say that rivalry with India is directly linked to the paki nationhood. If there is no rivalry, there is no nationhood. In time, pakis may find that the only nation ready to piggyback them is India.

Your question is:

If and when the Pakis get sick of their nationhood and decide that the solution is to join India they will offer to do that. And you want me to answer who in India will oppose it. Have I understood your question properly? You think Pakis will do X. I think Indians will do Y. And you are asking me which Indians will do Y in response to your X?

You have made up a hypothetical scenario and my answer too can be totally cooked up and hypothetical, making this conversation meaningless.

You asserted that India will not accept pakis. I wanted to know the basis of that assertion.

My point or hypothesis is that when paki oligarchy(army, mullah, and feudals) have no other option of saving their nationhood and their power, they will look towards India. As you have said, when rivalry with India ends, the very basis of paki nationhood ends.

So, the next step would be to officially merge into India while taking care to keep conditions that protect their position, privileges and demographic size.

Would India reject an offer from pakis to undo partition?

PS: While the scenario maybe hypothetical, the analysis of possible Indian reaction may not be hypothetical. In any case, many things that are discussed in the forums are hypothetical or hypothesis.

Pakistan was setup to first build and then set the foundation for its kind of people. Then they will expand everywhere using this base and get more land by conquer and by their gazi. Then they will control other regions and other countries. This is what we need to know how they think about their country and influence in the rest of the world. They have sold this vision to China and also to many people in the west including USA.

The purpose of connecting with India is for the same reason. One is to expand and also to survive and then expand the base. The memory of their nation is of paranoia and survival and make their fort strong. Now thay want to expand.

I think I am unable to explain my theory properly. I understand it is a weird theory.

Anyway, I'll try to explain it.
Pakis have already cleansed the parts under their control of all yindoo presence. BDs have also done the same. So, saturation has been attained. Lack of yindoos is forcing intra-islamic fight within paki society.

Paki nation always depended on the crumbs thrown by the west. The rivalry with India demanded that pakis keep a pretense of equality with India. If and when pakis become irrelevant to India, the paki nationhood loses its Raison de taire.

So, pakis are funded to keep India locked up in a tussle with pakis. If pakis are unable to lock India, they will not be funded. But India is rising. This means, the cost of funding pakis has gone up. This proves more expensive when there is economic downturn. If funds of Pakis are cut, then they cannot keep the pretense of equality with India. If they cannot keep up that pretense, the very nationhood of pakis comes into question. You see, the paki nation is locked in vicious circle.

Now add to it, the growing radicalization of paki society. This radicalization is forcing an intra-islamic fight. They need to infuse some alternate targets into their system. They can do so, in two ways:
a) increase the demography of kaffirs in their nation.
b) divert the radicalized energy towards a nation that has lots of kaffirs.

The pakis have tried the option b through out their history. But, the option is not paying any great dividends anymore because the number of radicalized entities is in much greater proportion than the targets.

The powers within Paki society are losing their grip on their society and their position is being threatened. New warlords are on the rise. The nation is unable to even keep a pretense of a nationhood.

The only scenario for such nation is secession of various parts. In this scenario, would the paki oligarchy think of joining India to save their power and also their grip on paki society? I think they will.

From Indian side, IMHO, the ruling powers have always tried to save the pakis. But the pakis have forced them to take some actions. So, if pakis make an offer of undoing partition, then the ruling powers(that includes intelligentsia and media) will lap up the idea. The secular parties will love the option of greater vote banks. It will be sold to Indians as the triumph of secularism over Islam.

The points that you describe are not contradictory to what I am saying. Pakis have already internalised the lands that are now Pak and BD. Now, the next land target is India. The only difference is that I am saying they can use this taqqiyya method instead of ghazi method.

Anyway, I think the idea is still a bit premature. So, I'll keep quiet.

Saar,
this is just the beginning. Eventually, they will talk of coming back to India...undoing the partition.

Just to clarify: When I say, undoing the partition, it does not mean seamlessly undoing the partition and becoming one big happy nation. Paki oligarchy will beg Indian oligarchy to accept them and their nation back into India. Western Oligarchy will have to bless the project for it to succeed. Just as the partition was a deal between these 3 parties, undoing the partition or continuing it will also be the decision of these 3 parties. The aam abduls and Rams need not consent to the project.

Someone said that Pakis want to have relation with India similar to Mexico's relation with US. I agree. But, I think Pakis would want better. They would want to have a relation with India similar to Maoists(and their commie 'eminent intellectual brethren').

So, when I say undoing the partition, what it means is: Paki oligarchy will get all the perks and privileges of Indian nationhood. They get to be part of the parliament and decision making. But some kind of autonomy(like say article 370) will be bargained for. Most jihadis will not like the idea of undoing the partition. They will play the role of maoists. The Paki oligarchy will then offer themselves as the go-between the jihadis and the Indian state...very much similar to how paki oligarchy have offered themselves as go-between US and jihadis. Then, the paki oligarchy will hunt with hounds and run with hares. The pakis can then again leech.

The obvious question would be: Why will India accept such losing proposition?
I am not saying that India will accept the proposition. I am saying that Indian oligarchy may find the proposition quite tempting. Why? To keep the jihadi network and paki oligarchy intact. Without such a lifeline, jihadi network and paki oligarchy may soon wither away.

BTW, the precedent to this is partition. Partition was also a losing proposition, but was accepted by the Indian oligarchy.

More importantly, in a decade or two, the Indian oligarchy maybe facing a threat from the rising middle-class Hindus. And they can be neutralised by the pakis.

It may not happen the way I am envisaging. It may happen in a different manner also. Say, the paki nation may secede into smaller parts. These smaller parts, then, offer to join the Indian union with certain preconditions. The end result may still be similar.

Of course, there is every chance that Hindus may use such an event to end all the pakiness once and for all.

Interestingly, the initial influx is happening from both sides of the border(BDs and Pakis). While, BDs are aiming the low level(of social order), the pakis are aiming for high level. If and when the demographics reach a certain threshold, the next stage will start.

[RamaY]

Self delete

[eklavya]

Aman-ki-asha is a Social preparation for mass exodus of Paki elites. Indian society is being slowly but surely made immune to Paki presence in media, entertainment and business fields. The next phase will be JVs in these fields followed by pure Paki owned and operated organizations in these fields.

I venture to predict a pure paki owned media outlet to cater Indian minorities within 5-10 years.

If such an outcome comes about as out as you predict, then can you call the entity in which this happens as India as we know it? Or will India as we know it will disintegrate into a loose federation of "South Asian" states? Unless India develops some form of Hindu nationalism with genuine secular safeguards built in, and Indians are willing to collectively stand up for a cause, I see a distinct possibility of this latter outcome as the final denouement of TSP's and its 3.five's relentless assault on India's nationhood.

It is Indian media, Indian entertainment, and Indian business organisations that will dominate Pakistan, not the other way round. India's 'soft-power' and hard-power already far exceeds that of Pakistan's, and the gap is growing exponentially in India's favour. The whole world can see this: why can't you?

[Guddu]

Pakis give up POK(In school atlas)


Maybe subconsciously they have given up POK

I think they just xeroxed some Indian maps...after all they are chor's.

[ArmenT]

.........

Not sure what you're talking about? Anything major?

[vivek_ahuja]

Too late, the TTP has already displayed the chopped off heads. Paki need more Islam!

Fifteen Pakistani troops missing after clashes: officials

Also,from this,

". . . . you see 12 heads here, and more heads are on the way," he {TTP spokesman Sirajud Din} said.

The attacks on the PA are picking up these days.

I don't understand how the Pakistani Army units manage to "lose" fifteen of their soldiers? One or two, I can understand. Stragglers or lost in the confusion. But fifteen? That sounds like either incompetency of unit commanders or the units involved have been compromised by Islamists (providing Tali-bunnies with real time intel of stretched out sections of the units). Perhaps a combination of both factors. Note that these units are supposedly operating on home turf, which makes this kind of performance even more surprising.

Overall, it reflects very poorly on the Pakistani Army as a whole

Compare with the win-loss statistics of Indian COIN forces in J&K and you get an idea of the contrast in performance. Many of our soldiers have been hurt/killed in combat with bearded jihadis, but you never hear (thankfully!) stories like this (of dozen or more soldiers gone 'missing' etc) at all.

[Prem]

Last week TTP claimed they have penetrated PA at high level and receive solid intelligence from inside sources. Next phase will be that of whole sale desertion by Non Pakjabis.

[vivek_ahuja]

Last week TTP claimed they have penetrated PA at high level and receive solid intelligence from inside sources. Next phase will be that of whole sale desertion by Non Pakjabis.

TTP receiving High Level Intel from the PA has been known for some time. But now it seems they are also receiving tactical intelligence about unit dispositions and timelines for attacks etc (or that the PA is utterly incompetent in COIN operations; see pictures showing them using tanks and APCs in these operations against their own villages! ) which suggest that the PA is indeed thoroughly compromised at the lower/mid level ranks. Attacks on Kamra etc is also indicative of this fact.

But I would beg to differ on the desertions. Yes they will eventually happen, but not until the deserters know that the side they are deserting to has a bright future. Right now these potential deserters are likely to sit it out within the PA until the time comes.

Frankly it makes me wonder how much the PA as an organization has begun to rot from the roots to the tallest branches...

[darshhan]

TTP receiving High Level Intel from the PA has been known for some time. But now it seems they are also receiving tactical intelligence about unit dispositions and timelines for attacks etc (or that the PA is utterly incompetent in COIN operations; see pictures showing them using tanks and APCs in these operations against their own villages! ) which suggest that the PA is indeed thoroughly compromised at the lower/mid level ranks. Attacks on Kamra etc is also indicative of this fact.

But I would beg to differ on the desertions. Yes they will eventually happen, but not until the deserters know that the side they are deserting to has a bright future. Right now these potential deserters are likely to sit it out within the PA until the time comes.

Frankly it makes me wonder how much the PA as an organization has begun to rot from the roots to the tallest branches...

Vivek ji, +1. When whole squads are wiped out, it does reflect poorly on the leadership and training capabilities of Pakistani Army. They have been unable to adapt to COIN. And come to think of it, this is precisely the kind of mission that they will have to undertake. I feel they have failed in mastering small unit tactics. Something is definitely wrong. For eg. while patrolling they are not following Standard Operating procedures like maintaining distance between the soldiers/inability to choose defensive positions which provide interlocking fields of fire/weakness in logistics(lack of ammo)/suboptimal orgainzation for COIN/inability to generate quality intelligence including humint/low morale etc

The last point is very important(Morale) for COIN since insurgency is all about psychological attrition rather than physical attrition.

If Pakistani Army cannot handle taliban, what will happen to them if we decide to use Paracommandos/Garuds/Ghataks against them. They will be seriously screwed.

Pakistani Army is lucky that Indian Govt has till now avoided military operations against them. Otherwise they would have been complete Nude(Nanga) in front of the world by now.

[RamaY]

Self delete

[RamaY]

I don't understand how the Pakistani Army units manage to "lose" fifteen of their soldiers? One or two, I can understand. Stragglers or lost in the confusion. But fifteen? That sounds like either incompetency of unit commanders or the units involved have been compromised by Islamists (providing Tali-bunnies with real time intel of stretched out sections of the units). Perhaps a combination of both factors. Note that these units are supposedly operating on home turf, which makes this kind of performance even more surprising.

Overall, it reflects very poorly on the Pakistani Army as a whole

Compare with the win-loss statistics of Indian COIN forces in J&K and you get an idea of the contrast in performance. Many of our soldiers have been hurt/killed in combat with bearded jihadis, but you never hear (thankfully!) stories like this (of dozen or more soldiers gone 'missing' etc) at all.

My guess is that these lesser greens thought they are surrendering to darker greens but did not expect to be waj-ub-cutletted. No wonder they surrendered without fight. I was told army is trained to fight till death and this light-green terrorist army of Pakistan mastered the art of surrendering to every and any opposition. A note for the Baluchis (all they have to do is to demonstrate darkest shade of green).

If a couple of these incidents happen at this scale, a possible development is that this terrorist army will fight to death instead of surrendering. But my 4th cousin says that is impossible. Will the holy book and the prophet allow such a fight with true greens?

[Lilo]

Regarding PA COIN tactics..wrt a different incident in SWaziristan..

...regarding the activity which happened in Saurang Baba Ziarat village in which abt 9 soldiers were killed and 18 militants too.....i just got the details, to say that it was a fiasco wud be putting it mildly......negative points are
1. JUST 40 soldiers told to OCCUPY 3 new peaks.....
2. However, they occupied only 2 of them, leaving the THIRD and THE MOST critical and dominating one alone......
3. To top it all, all this under the command of a year old LT.....
.....wht happened was bound to happened, tangos climbed the third peak undetected and poured heavy fire on them, our troops were suppressed as the tangos were holding the high ground, seeing lack of fire from our side, tangos converted this fire raid into a full blown physical raid and overran the middle peak, since the times were desperate, own troops called in DF (OL)....Defensive Fire Own Location.....meaning artillery fire on their location.........2 of our men were killed in that fire, which was expected once u call such a fire task, rest 6-7 were killed in the fire fight out of which 1-2 were beheaded.......
......AND WHAT MORE....my dear HakimUllah Mehsud was personally commanding this activity.......

The quoted part was an account of a recent OP as revealed by a person who claims himself to be a serving TSPAian. Since it is sourced from one of the deaf-and-dumb outposts, veracity is unknown as conflictingly, ISPR and MSM reported on this Op as just another "raid on a checkpost" titled as "18 militants, 8 soldiers killed in South Waziristan"
8 soldiers, 10 militants killed in Taliban attack on Pak checkpost

[RamaY]

Rsangram ji,

My response in off-topic thread.