Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 27 Aug 2012 22:22

RajeshA wrote:johneeG ji,

many many thanks for your effort to clarify! It was engrossing reading!

Thanks for appreciation.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 27 Aug 2012 23:42

svenkat wrote:Carlji,
I do not know whether your harsh remarks in your first post was directed at me about 'morons fighting reservation system'.

Nope, it wasn't directed at anyone, certainly not you. Its for the mentality I described.

Of course I agree that its become some sort of a cynical joke, with different castes jockeying to be labelled "backward". Therefore its the cynical atmosphere that needs to be removed by substituting it with a constructive, charitable and visionary movement. That way everyone benefits while helping one another.

I still believe that reservation quotas for specific target communities is a good thing, and that capacity building and proliferation of educational institutions, along with delivery of higher quality education, is the way to go. We need a much greater investment in education.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 27 Aug 2012 23:47

RajeshA wrote:On another forum, I am having to wrestle with someone spreading big time lies about Ramayana being based on the Dasaranya War.
<snip>

RajeshA garu,

I tried to research Ramayana on the reference to Saraswati river. The areas I looked for were
1. When Rama's coronation was cancelled and Vashistha sends people to bring Bharata from his maternal uncle's house in Kekaya. The messengers traveled in one route and Bharata return to Ayodhya thru another route.
2. Sugriva's explanation of entire earth's geography

And I found this about Bharata's return journey from Kekaya

Valmiki Ramayana - Ayodhya Kanda in Prose Sarga 71

sarasvatiim ca gaN^gaam ca ugmena pratipadya ca |
uttaram viiramatsyaanaam bhaaruNDam praavishadvanam || 2-71-5

Arriving at the confluence of Saraswati and Ganga rivers, Bharata entered the woods of Bharmuda, the north of Viramatsaya region

I do not think the Dasaranya war is same as Ramayana or Bharata. For the following reasons

1. By the time of Ramayana, Vashistha and Viswamitra became friends. We can see this in the episode where Viswamitra approaches Dasaratha for Rama's help in protecting his yaga.
2. By the time of Ramayana Viswamitra already got his siddhi w.r.t Astras and Gayatri mantra. He already became a Brahmarshi.
3. Vashistha and Viswamitra's competition is much earlier than Rama's time. For example between the rein of Trishanku (who took care of Viswamitra's family while he was on penance) and Bharata (is the same Bharata whose mother Sakuntala is daughter of Viswamitra and Menaka?).

Rama's lineage is

Manu > Ikshvaaku > Kukshi > Vikukshi > Baana > Anaranya > Pruthu > Trishanku > Dhundumaara > Yuvanaashva > Mandhaata > Susandhi > Dhruvasandhi > Prasenajit > Bharata > Asita > Sagara > Asamanja > Amshuman > Diliipa > Bhageeratha > Kakutstha > Raghu > Pravriddha > Shankana > Sudarshana > Agnivarsna > Shiigraga > Maru > Prashushruka > Ambariisha > Nahusha > Yayaati > Naabhaaga > Aja > Dasharatha > Rama

Let me do some research on Devi Bhagavatam (Book is at home

in NJ) so I can get more details. In fact IIRC that Devi Bhagavatam talks about a severe drought that is caused by Vashistha/Viswamitra's curse. Will get back to you.

On Vedas - Krishna Dwaipayana just recompiled the Veda Vangmaya and structured it to be what it is now. The vedas existed even before him. For example

Valmiki Ramayana - Kishkindha Kanda in Prose Sarga 3

"Nay...the non-knower of Rig Veda, or the non-rememberer of Yajur Veda, or the non-scholar of Saama Veda... can possibly, or truly speak this way...

And some explanation:
From hereon Rama's analysis of Hanuma is depicted. In Rig Veda every letter has too many phonetically deflected variations, in many ways to mean many things. It is practically impossible to contain that knowledge, unless the recitalist has complete control over it. Hence the word, viniita , 'well trained' is used. In Yajurveda many anuvaaka-s or passages occur recursively, with different utilisation. Remembering not to mix one with the other is a difficult process. Hence the recitalist has to have enormous remembrance. In Saamaveda the pitch and duration of the rendering is of high importance, as such it requires a scholarly bent to control vocal notes. The three words, vinaya, schooling; dhaaraNa, remembrance and vedana knowledge are required to each of the above Veda-s. Atharva Veda, on the other hand, has no recital performance other than the above. Hence, it is said, is not quoted by Rama. Hanuma said 'you two are eligible to rule the earth' as at 4-3-15, which tantamount to the quote brhamaa vaa idam ekaeva agra aasiit... from Rigveda aitereya. Next he said that you are deities inhuman form at 4-3-13, which has its bearing on the Yajurveda quote ajaayamaano bahudhaa vijaayate... Then Rama is said having lotus-petal like eyes, at 4-3-11, taking clue from cChandogya of Saamaveda, myathaakapyaasam punDariikam evaakshiNii.... Hence these utterances of Hanuman are said to have direct base in the Veda-s.

Why this Balakanda says this...

tasyaam puryaam ayodhyaayaam vedavit sarva sa.ngrahaH |
diirghadarshii mahaatejaaH paura jaanapada priyaH || 1-6-1
ikshwaakuuNam atiratho yajvaa dharmaparo vashii |
maharSikalpo raajarSiH triSu lokeSu vishrutaH || 1-6-2
balavaan nihata amitro mitravaan vijita indriyaH |
dhanaiH cha sa.nchayaiH cha anyaiH shakra vaishravaNa upamaH || 1-6-3
yathaa manur mahaatejaa lokasya parirakshitaa |
tathaa dasharatho raajaa lokasya parirakshitaa || 1-6-4

He who is well-versed in Veda-s, who is a gatherer of all scholars, riches and forces as well, a foreseer and a great resplendent one, also one who is esteemed by urbanites and countrymen alike, one who is a top-speeded chariot-warrior aamong the emperors of Ikshwaku kings, one who has performed many Vedic rituals, a virtuous one, a great controller, a saint-like kingly sage, one who he is renowned in all the three worlds, a mighty one with all his enemies eradicated, nevertheless who has friends, one who conquered all his senses, one who is similar to Indra, or Kubera on earth with his wealth, accumulations and other possessions, he that king Dasharatha while dwelling in the city of Ayodhya protected the world, like Manu, the foremost protector of mankind. [1-6-3,4,5]

In addition to this Ravana is said to be a master on Vedas. Up until Vyasa, Ravana's separation of Veda-chapters when he recited Vedas upon lifting Kailasa parvata is said to be in use (no references, just hearsay).

Now a Map so you can visualize Bharata's journey

1First he see a river in the Sudama mountain(Present Sulaiman )called Sudaama river.
2.Then he see a broad river ,flowing to the west as Hladini
3.Sathadru
4.Elaadhanee river
5.The silaa river(stony river )of Aparapappada.Towards its Agnikon is a silavaha where salyakarthana is done.
6.Reaches the Chaithrarathavana after crossing several mountainous tracts
7.He sees the saraswathy and Sindhu snghamam
8 Reach Bharundakaananam north of Veeramatsya
9.The swiftflowing kalinga river enclosed by mountains.There he rests and gives rest to his horses
10.Dense forests
11.He see Ganga in Ansudhana but do not cross the river there
12.Instead he crossed it at Pragvapuram
13.Kutigoshtika
14.Dharmavardhana
15.Towards the south of its thorana lies Jambuprastha
16.He reaches the Varoothagraama an
16.He reaches the Varoothagraama and stays at the Ramyavana for the night
17.To the east is Ujjihana garden with the famous red cotton plantations.Bharatha walks around and see this cotton garden
18.Crosses the river Uthanika
19.Crosses several rivers to reach Hasthisrishtaka
20.Crosses Kudika river
21.Crosses Kapeevathy river in Louhitya
22.Crosses Sthanumathy river in Ekasaalam
23.Crosses river Gomathy in Vinatham
24.Then he cross the forests belonging to the Kalingadesha
25 And reaches the ancient city of his ancestors .

The route that the messengers of Vasishta took is as follows
1.They traveled along the river Malini
2.Crossed Ganga at Hasthinapura
3.Kurujangala/Anupadesa is crossed where they see numerous migratory birds
4.Kalpatharu is seen and they pay homage to it
5.See the Bodhi of Kalingadesa
6.The Ikshumathy river of the ancients
7.Crossing it they reach the Sudama mountain and the Girivraja of kekayarajagriha.

Look for Kekaya under Gandhara...

hope this helps...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Aug 2012 07:27

Vidhura, himself, followed caste system. After teaching Vidhura Neeti, Dhritarashtra requests to be taught Brahma-Vidya. Vidhura says that he is unfit to teach Brahma Vidya because of his caste. (This episode also shows that even if he were offered the empire of Hastinapura, he would have definitely rejected such an offer owing to his caste. His own definition of Dharma includes adhering to the caste system...)

So, caste system was not completely irrelevent. In fact, caste played a very important role. For example, Karna accompanied Duryodhana to Draupadi's swamvara. Many king tried their hand at the challenge and failed. Karna was about to try his hand at the challenge(of hitting the high hanging fish's eye by looking through the oil in a bowl). Everyone(including the Pandavas) thought that Karna would surely do it and thereby win the hand of Draupadi. But, he was stopped from trying by Draupadi. She declared in the assembly that even if Karna succeeded in hitting the fish's eye, she would not marry him(because of his caste).

So, caste played an important role. Yet, there are also simultaneous behaviours that disregarded the caste. So, I would think that it showcases a period when the caste system was very strong but was steadily being corrupted(or broken down).

Just a few thoughts on this.

Is acquiring knowledge important or having the authority to pass it or both? I think Vidura had brahma-Jnana based on what he says to Dhritarashtra. I can give numerous example to this from MB.

The next question is, is Vidura qualified to impart that knowledge to others? I do not know about it. I strongly believe that this qualification is different from having knowledge of that subject themselves.

Unlike other knowledge, Hindu brahma vidya is nothing but making the seeker self/God aware, which takes a completely different approach. It is not like giving knowledge which is separate from the seeker. Here the seeker must become aware that his true being is Atman and that atman is nothing but Satya, Ananta and Jnana which is same as God consciousness.

If (sic) caste is the only criteria, then Hastina had many of them but Vidura refers only a Brahma Jnani.

ugandhar · Post by **ugandhar** » 28 Aug 2012 08:19

Regarding charity and donations by Hindus. Every Rupee donated at a church is their own, which is not the case for Hindu temples controlled by Government.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Aug 2012 22:24

RamaY ji,

I am feeling guilty for having loaded you with so much research work! Thank you very very much!

It turned out that my discussion partner was really a jerk and he came down very quickly to hurling abuses so the discussion terminated.

However you have posted fascinating stuff. It certainly gives a lot of information on the geography of the land!

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Aug 2012 22:47

Going by induction, Saraswati should have been flowing definitely during Rama days and beyond back. I hope pakis can allow us to do scientific research on the dried out Saraswati river banks.. we could send teams. Will GoI support it?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Aug 2012 22:57

^ I was thinking in same lines, but think we can do some homework before going Paki way.

1. We can use s/w like google earth and do some math/calculations to see where the tributaries from Satadru, Saraswati and Drisadvati are cut off (in above pic) and see if there is any possibility of large landslides that altered the routes. We can use the altitude numbers to draw possible routes using a geographical mapping algorithms.

2. Then conduct some research on those possible locations to see if the current streams have any difference in soil samples and erosion patterns. For example if water was flowing in one direction is altered by a land slide we should be able to study the erosion patterns on both sides.

3. We can use the same algorithm to go backwards (up towards north) and see where the possible catchment areas can be.

Really appreciate if anyone knows relevant s/w tools/algoritms.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Aug 2012 02:00

RajeshAji

My pleasure. I learn new things every time.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Aug 2012 05:04

http://greatandhra.com/viewnews.php?id= ... 10&scat=25

The job of giving spiritual discourses is usually done by the pundits and scholars but have you ever heard of an IPS officer doing this? Well, it is happening here in our state. The man who is responsible for that is former DGP Aravind Rao. Known as the honest and tough cop, Aravind Rao was a major inspiration to many honest and sincere police officers.

Currently, he has changed his profile and has begun giving out Bhagavad Gita in English. These discourses are being explained in sophisticated English. Those who are interested can watch the video by clicking the link below. This is indeed a good thing. A person who used to enforce law and order is speaking about dharma and karma in the most effective manner.

That way, he is setting an example. It will definitely attract many people towards Bhagavad Gita. It would also be getting a lot of aura for the people to come and listen to the discourse. For the record, Rao was also heading the anti-corruption bureau and was the intelligence chief during the regime of YSR. He was also the IG for Greyhounds. A cop who has handled the toughest profiles is now showing the path to many through his discourse. Truly commendable!
www.livestream.com/advaita_aravindarao

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Aug 2012 06:57

I had linked in OiT thread the coordinates of Saraswati and Arabian sea/Indian ocean confluence. You can see the hanumongous gorge that can scare you about the depth and breadth of it, now lying under the sea.

23.412847,67.321014

Perhaps one could take that as the starting point [reverse traversal], and come up with the most appropriate river map.

btw, ignore the top sediments.. 1000s of years of sand and sedimentary rocks has actually destroyed the land and the current deltas. however, one could visualize and trace on from there.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Aug 2012 11:08

No text is there discribing the war of 10 kings from Vedas. Surprising.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 31 Aug 2012 08:42

Question: How were Draupadi and Drishthdhumna born? Normal birth? or something extraordinary?

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 31 Aug 2012 09:53

After defeat in the hands of Arjuna - Dhurupada performed Yagna to have a son who can/will kill Dronacharya and a girl who will marry Arjuna. While the Yagna is being compleated his wife was called and she could not come so out of anger the rushi who was performing the yagna has poured the sacred water/Yagnaphalam into the fires of teh Yagna itself and from that sacred fires a black girl of exceptional beauty and a great man fully armed and on the charriot born. That is why She is called Krishna ( Black) and Yagnaseni. The man is Dhushtadhumna who lead the armys of Pandava side in the great was at Kurushethra. Insidentally an other son of Dhurupada was Sikhandi and we all know what he did. Dhurupada sons killed first 2 senapathis of Kuru army in the great war. They died in the hand of Ashwadhama while sleeping along with Upapandavas.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 31 Aug 2012 09:59

^^ So it was not a normal birth. theek hai. Dhanyavaad.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 31 Aug 2012 21:51

RamaY wrote:Let us see how the exalted Christian dharma is doing when it comes to Varna and Caste.

1. Varna :

The Brahmins of Christianity can come from any back ground. The only qualifications required are unflinching intellectual slavery towards the institution of Christianity, unapologetic harvesting of souls, pedophilia as long as it doesn't become public, sexual exploitation of nuns, embezzlement of church funds and finally unethical intervention into local societies affairs, secularism be damned. Some of the brahmins of Christianity not only defined but encouraged the crusades, holocaust and the religious clans like KKK.

The Kshatriyas of Christianity too can come from any background. But they need to remain loyal to church meddling in geopolitical affairs and ensuring steady supply of Jambie soldiers who do not show any morals or ethics in killing and plundering other states and nations. Invading non-christian societies and Running Abu-Grahib type jails is their speciality.

The Vaisyas of Christianity too can come from any background. All they have to do is to ensure that their shameless exploitation of natural and otherwise resources with no social responsibility or accountability. These folks took the animal husbandry to the next level, where they raise populations of domestic cattle as if they are edible plastic with no respect for life and they shamelessly destroyed any living organism that they find unsuitable for human consumption of economic value.

The Shudras of Christianity demonstrate the foundations of that faith. These jambies life lives larger than their and surrounding ecosystems, indulge in excessive carnal pleasures so their societies get the distinction of highest police, jail, drug addicts, homicides ratios.

2. Caste: it took more than 100 years for the Christian societies to give voting rights to woman, more than 200 years for blacks to get treated equally. Even in 2008, the most influential person on the face of earth, the president of the united states, have to proclaim that he is a Christian even though he was born a Muslim and demonstrate that he was more loyal white than a white.

+108.
This post needs to be spread far and wide:

Just to add:
The jambies are discouraged from any independent thinking. They are deliberately kept as ignorant, weak, poor and dependent. They are like unacknowledged slaves open to exploitation by the elites.

And though, there is an illusion of birth having no importance, the reality is quite different. Few families occupy the top 3 Varnas. Most ordinary folk (and their successors) are perpetually caught in the 4th Varna. They are dangled a carrot that if they work hard enough they can join the 3 Varnas. But, generally, it is an illusion(Maya). This illusion lures the 4th Varna into rat race through out their life serving the needs and desires of the other 3 varnas. And yet, they end up with what?!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Sep 2012 05:55

X-post...

RamaY wrote:And why age old tradition of poliyandry is brought back to life, especially in an elite family. Pandava's have different mothers and different fathers. Remember what happened after Rama made his and other brothers' sons as kings of Bharat.

BTW, many thanks to Abishek ji.

Please elaborate,

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 02 Sep 2012 06:17

Rji

Will post the details (I posted them earlier and will find them) later... But this coment is of my inference so pls add some salt...

The Krishna generation learned from the Rama experiment, which ended with Ravana's death and went back to normal life. Rama coronated lava, Kusha, Bharata (and his sons), Lakshmana (and his sons), and satrughna (and his sons) as kings of various kingdoms based on what they inherited (Kosala kingdom was given to his sons) or what is won in Aswametha Yaga etc.,

If the sons of Pandu and Dhritarashtra can fight, so can the sons of Pandavas. Jealousy is not the right of few. Like Vikarna joined Pandavas side, it's opposite too could happen based on how one sees dharma (remember how it can be misunderstood from Sri Malladi's speech?).

IIRC, Dharmaraja too had a wife other than Draupadi. Then what is the necessity for them marrying Draupadi in the way they did?

After getting Sri Kohli's insight I think it is to ensure that the Panchala support comes for all the brothers (since there is less possibility of Arjuna becoming the king). Since it is not possible for Dharma Raja and Arjuna to marry Draupadi leaving the others out, much planning has happened to do what is needed. And even the kinds of Vyasa were brought in to get the divine sanctity (not that it could be made up or wrong.).

No wonder the Pandavas treated Draupadi with the highest respect and love as they did. She consciously (not unwillingly) became part of this Yajna called MahaBharata (not Maha Pandava, please note). Perhaps Sri Krishna made her member of this secret Yajna, leading to the stories that they have 'platonic love' (as depicted in yarllgadda's Draupadi and more recent govinda novel).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Sep 2012 04:18

Also see Kohli's interpretation of what went in Dhritarashtra's mind before the Coronation. And relate to modern times.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 03 Sep 2012 17:18

RamaY wrote:Rji

Will post the details (I posted them earlier and will find them) later... But this coment is of my inference so pls add some salt...

The Krishna generation learned from the Rama experiment, which ended with Ravana's death and went back to normal life. Rama coronated lava, Kusha, Bharata (and his sons), Lakshmana (and his sons), and satrughna (and his sons) as kings of various kingdoms based on what they inherited (Kosala kingdom was given to his sons) or what is won in Aswametha Yaga etc.,

If the sons of Pandu and Dhritarashtra can fight, so can the sons of Pandavas. Jealousy is not the right of few. Like Vikarna joined Pandavas side, it's opposite too could happen based on how one sees dharma (remember how it can be misunderstood from Sri Malladi's speech?).

IIRC, Dharmaraja too had a wife other than Draupadi. Then what is the necessity for them marrying Draupadi in the way they did?

After getting Sri Kohli's insight I think it is to ensure that the Panchala support comes for all the brothers (since there is less possibility of Arjuna becoming the king). Since it is not possible for Dharma Raja and Arjuna to marry Draupadi leaving the others out, much planning has happened to do what is needed. And even the kinds of Vyasa were brought in to get the divine sanctity (not that it could be made up or wrong.).

No wonder the Pandavas treated Draupadi with the highest respect and love as they did. She consciously (not unwillingly) became part of this Yajna called MahaBharata (not Maha Pandava, please note). Perhaps Sri Krishna made her member of this secret Yajna, leading to the stories that they have 'platonic love' (as depicted in yarllgadda's Draupadi and more recent govinda novel).

Vikaran did not join Pandavas. He was killed by Bheema in the war. Yuyutsu joined Pandavas before the start of the war.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Sep 2012 19:57

^ thanks I stand corrected. Yuyutsu is born to Dhritarashtra out of another non-Kshatriya.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 03 Sep 2012 23:03

RamaY wrote: In addition to this Ravana is said to be a master on Vedas. Up until Vyasa, Ravana's separation of Veda-chapters when he recited Vedas upon lifting Kailasa parvata is said to be in use (no references, just hearsay).

Hanuman(Anjaneya) entered Lanka after crossing the ocean. It was night time and He saw the following:

svaadhyaaya nirataamH caiva yaatu dhaanaan dadarsha saH |
raavaNa stava samyuktaan garjataH raakSasaan api || 5-4-13

There Hanuma heard ritual chantings muttered by rakshasas in their houses. He saw rakshasas engaged in regulated study of Vedas. He also saw groups of rakshasas roaring in praise of Ravana.

diikSitaan jaTilaan muNDaan gaH ajina ambara vaasasaH |
darbha muSTi praharaNaan agni kuNDa aayudhaamH tathaa || 5-4-15

Hanuma saw those who were initiated into various Vedic practices, those who wore matted locks on their head, those who had shaven heads, those who wore cow hides and other clothing, those who were carrying Kusa grass as weapons and also those who had fire vessels as weapons.

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/sundara/s ... _frame.htm

Hanuman scouted Lanka, house to house, finally entering Ravana's palace. There He saw Pushpaka vimana. Pushpaka vimana is described thus:

niyujyamaanaaH ca gajaaH suhastaaH |
sakesaraaH ca utpala patra hastaaH |
babhuuva devii ca kR^itaa suhastaa |
lakSmiiH tathaa padmini padma hastaa || 5-7-14

Images of elephants in a lotus-pool with filaments of lotus on body, with lotus petals held in their trunks, were devoted to the worship of an image of Goddess Lakshmi. And also an image of Goddess Lakshmi with four graceful hands and holding lotus in Her hand was made to exist in Pushpaka.

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/sundara/s ... _frame.htm

Hanuman entered the inner chambers of Ravana, where He witnessed Ravana asleep in his chambers along with several women. The whole place bore marks of a great festival or party. Those women are described in the following manner:

vyaavRtta tilakaaH kaashcit kaashcid udbhraanta nuupuraaH |
paarshve galita haaraaH ca kaashcit parama yoSitaH || 5-9-46

Best women with disturbed sacred marks (tilaka/bindi) on forehead became with displaced anklets, became with necklaces fallen off to side.

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/sundara/s ... _frame.htm

Much later, Vibhishana goes to Ravana's mansion to advice him to return Sita to Her Husband, Rama. There, in Ravana's mansion, Vibhishana sees:

puNyaan puNyaahaghoSaamshcha vedavidbhirudaahR^itaan |
shushraava sumahaatejaa bhraaturvijayasamshritaan || 6-10-8

Vibhishana with great radiance, heard the auspicious sounds of felicitous recital of prayers uttered by the knowers of Vedas (scriptural texts), wishing for the victory of his brother.

puujitaan dadhipaatraishca sarpirbhiH sumanokSataiH |
mantravedavido vipraan dadarsha sa mahaabalaH || 6-10-9

Vibhishana of great strength, saw scholars(Viprah) well-versed in Mantras (sacred texts) who are revered by offering them with pots filled of curd, clarified butter as well as with flowers and unbroken rice.

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sa ... _frame.htm

After the death of Indrajith(Ravana's son), Ravana is incited by anger and resolves to kill Sita. He fiercely rushes to Ashoka Vatika were Sita is lodged. Then, a Rakshasa named Suparshva convinces Ravana to desist from such an action. In course, of dissuading Ravana, Suparshva uses several praises for Ravana. Following is one such verse:

veda vidyaavrata snaataH svadharmanirataH sadaa || 92-6-64
striyaaH kasmaadvadhaM vIra manyase raakShaseshvara |

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sa ... _frame.htm

Meaning:
"O valiant king of Rakshasas(demons)! (You) are always devoted to your own duty(svadharmah) ever since you have been initiated into vedic ceremony called Snaatakam which marks the beginning of regular study of Veda Vidya. Why are you thinking of killing a woman?"

The inference is that Ravana is being praised as a person who adhered to the teachings of Veda. And that killing a woman is against the vedic teachings, so he should desist from it.

Ravana listens to the advice and does not kill Sita.

The last rites of Ravana was performed by Vibhishana according to Vedic teachings:

raavaNam prayate deshe sthaapya te bhR^ishaduHkhitaaH || 6-111-114
chitaaM chandanakaaShThaishcha padmakoshiirasaMvR^itaam |
braahmyaa saMvartayaamaasuu raaN^kavaastaraNaavR^itaam || 6-111-115
vartate vedavihito raajJNo vai pashchimaH kratuH |

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha/sa ... _frame.htm

Meaning:
Keeping the body of Ravana on a consecrated spot, Vibhishana and others, who were very much afflicted with grief, piled up a sacred pyre, with logs of sandalwood, moistened with perfumes called Padmaka and Koshira and covered with the skin of black antelopes, turned about to perform the obsequies in accordance with Vedic rites in honour of the king.

----
The above excerpts refute the claim that Ramayana supports AIT.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2012 21:12

JohneeG, Note they dont call it chatur vedah anywhere in Ramayana. The number comes later with Vyasa's re-arragement.

I was talking to two elders about how the Westerners translate Purusha Suktam as a sacrifice rite. They both were astounded and said its the problem of the translator projecting his culture on the great suktam which is divinley sublime.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Sep 2012 22:22

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 62#p641962

shaardula wrote:in kannada there is a classic 'remake' of mahabharatha called gadhayuddha. basically it is all about the battle at vyshampayana between duryodhana and bheema. but it goes about the precedents to that battle in the form of flashback - ranna the author calls it simhavalokana.

since it is in old kannada, it is about accessible to modern day lay men as sanskrit. but once you have got a hang of the meter and have found a good teacher to break down complex sandhis, you get a hang of what ranna was going for. awesome, vivid stuff it is.

+ what it makes it unique is that it takes great pains to describe duryodhana's pov. we had an awesome teacher. by the time he was done with it, most of the class was rooting for suyodhana.

so when krushna thumps his thighs, to hint bheema on the sly, we were all so dissapointed. the greater disappointment was that bheema who was until then possibly the most chivalorous and brilliant pandava succumbed to it.

but then hey, there was no way he could have bettered duryodhana after gandhari had shielded him up using up her all powers. bheema had no special powers, simple human application he represents. but i personally love him because he avenged every single attrocity draupadi had to suffer. and always played the protective husband to her.

i would have loved him more if he would have held dharmaraja accountable for putting her in trouble in the first place. but hey, that is me speaking in 21st century. what do i know of nepotistic pressures of that era?

Sorry for replying so late (~ almost 3years>

Malladi Chandrasekhara Sastri in his Mahabharata discourses says there was perfect understanding between Dharmaraja and Draupadi. Its only after getting summons from him via a messenger she comes and asks the questions. The reluctance to provide answers to the questions show how brefit of Dharma the Kaurava court had become. This exposes them to the punishment they get in the war.

My thoughts(MT)
Also note that it was period of Yuga Sandhya or intergennum between the Dwapara and Kali yuga and hence the great breakdown in Dharma

I submit that it started from Shantanu himself desiring Satyavati.

BTW, RamaY was telling me that Krishna Udayshankar in her book "Govinda" also portrays Duryodhana in a more understandable light.

He is first born of the then current ruler Dhritarastra who was set aside to make Pandu as the king. As Dharmaraja is born earlier he gets th first chance to rule Hastinapura and not Duryodhana.
Duryodhana is surrounded by numerous useless brothers with no good skill set. He thus leans on Karna to make up for the shortcoming.

MT follows:

He is the tragic hero of the Mahabharata and not Karna.

Recall that Maharaja Bharata had layed down the rule of yogyata or capability for royal succession. He also wanted janasamudhayi or people agreement to the ruler. Sort of selection criteria for royal succession.

This rule got violated repeatedly when first born (primo geniture) was adopted. Howver in the Bharata Vansh/dynasty the first born were capable and got the people's concurrence. The duwida or trouble comes after Shantanu when his irresponsible sons(Vichitravirya and Chitrangadh) are made the rulers with the capable Bhisma sidelined. Again primo geinture was invoked. Dhritrasthra is set aside by Vidur's arguement about the need for fit king and Pandu becomes the king. Sort of yogyata criteria is back. But when Pandu leaves for the forest and sits Dhritarastra on the throne, its not clear whether it was temporay like a steward(Lord of the Rings style) or as king? If he is a steward or caretaker then if primo geniture is invoked Dharmaraja as the frist born of the Pandavas and even the second generation would should be the next king. Dhritrastra by making Dhramaraja the yuvaraja recognized he was a caretaker.

However by making Dharmaraja only the yuvaraja and not the king, Dhritrastra still clung to the throne and fed Duryodhana's desires to wrest the kingship eventually. By partitioning the kingdom with capitals in Hastinapura and Indraprastha, he managed to feed his own desires to have his progeny on the throne of Hastinapur. But again it didnt happen as they got killed in the Mahabharata.

Sorry for the ramble!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2012 04:14

Ok, here is my review of Krishna Udayashankar's (KU) Aryavarta Chronicles.

The author did a good amount of research (details are given at the end of the book) before writing this novel. The author says that this is not an yet another rendition of MB, which is good. But she presents the plot very nicely, IMHO, without making any specific character too good or too bad.

Interesting thoughts expressed -
1. Draupadi - presented as someone who was found/saved by Drupada along with dristadyumna from a forest fire and adopted as his daughter. She is depicted as childhood freind of Krishna/Govinda and as someone who loved him and wanted to live with him. She is won by Arjuna in swayamvara, but was married to Dharmaraja. Unlike in MB, KU's Draupadi doesn't marry other Pandavas, eventhough they were attracted to her. Draupadi is an independent and righteous woman (I do not want to use the word feminist like others) and genuinely wanted everyone to live happily. She becomes Dharamaraja's best friend and counsellor to the extent that she runs the finance and administration of Indraprastha.

2. Dharma - as the first born of the Kuru family as well as Pandavas, dharma is the head of Pandavas where as others are the limbs, with Draupadi being the sakti/force/chaitanya. He is never interested in the politics and hoped to live an ascetic/intellectual life. But as the politics and power is thrusted on him, especially by the successes of Arjuna (Draupadi and Khandava-prastha/Indra prastha) and Govinda (getting western/northern Kuru and Indra prastha), Dharma becomes self-conscious. From this fight for self-identity comes the idea of doing Rajasuya (how to outwit others? By taking even grandeur project). Vyasa and Govinda both think he is the right choice to be the leader of entire Bharat due to his virtues.

3. Duryodhana - I am pleasantly surprised with KU's description of Duryodhana (Syodhana as she says). Duryodhana hoped to be Yuvaraj but did not fight when Dharma becomes one. North Kuru (the original capital by Puru - Hastina was build by an ancestor of that name) was already lost to forests and Takshaka, king of Nagas, so Duryodhana did not feel bad when that was given to pAndavas. Apparently being the east-Kuru prince even as an uncoordinated one, He claimed more and better connections with then prevailing kingdoms. When Dharma started Rajasuya, Duryodhana was not jealous because (A) he knew it was not an easy task and (B) he doesn't have the honest, dharmic and loyal brothers like dharma. Perhaps it explains why he relied on Karna so much. He couldnt rely on his asuric brothers (he knew of their character).

4. Sikhandi - this is another pleasant surprise for me and opened new thoughts. Eventhough he is real son of Drupada, he did not accept his father's inhumane behavior and attitude towards what KU calls the fire wrights (the inventors and scientists). He didn't like what he saw when Drupada persecuted them and he rebelled. Apparently Bhishma (read below) is also against fire wrights so he too treated Sikhandi as un-Arya. Sikhandi did not fight against Pandavas when they imprisoned Drupada so that is another reason for his sidelining as a prince. He is a great warrior who contributes much to dharma's Rajasuya.

5. Bhishma - he is a true Kshatriya for that he sacrificed everything for his glory and honor. He was the student of Parasurama, who was a fire wright (inventor of Astras). But he sided with first borns (the other camp) lead by Vyasa, because (my inference) he fathered Ambika and Ambalika, in addition to Bhishma's trust in social order. He raged Kashi for it hosted Fire Wrights in addition to their fight for A3 (Amba, Ambika, Ambalika).

First Borns - the group who put emphasis in orderly transition of kings (perhaps the first born of the king to be the prince) and who put legitimacy of social order in the name of gods and recreating heavens on earth. This group was started by Vashista and led by Vyasa in MB.

Fire Wrights - the group started by Angirasa (author of Atharva Veda) the leader of innovators and scientists. This group respected an individuals self worth instead of their birth and social order. They were accepted as long as their inventions were useful or society but shunned when they rebelled against social order.

Who is right? - Both. The innovators and scientists are important to a society, but they cannot rule the society. Imagine one day DRDO wanting to rule India just because it contributed much to our society's security. The social order is a management solution because it gets best of division of labor, predictable social security, rule of law and peaceful succession of political power. It is same as today's (combination of ) constitution, civil/penal code, democracy etc., imagine sometime in future one wonders why a child molester should be punished for life, because it was fine to do so in that time and space (hypothetical scenario).

More over who will decide who is the best in a fire wright scenario? The strongest?, the highest IQ? Passing a test (we know how many IITians became CEOs) and so on...

I know I left the hero Govinda. Will write at the end of the series. I will put some of the interesting topics here so I am not killing the book ( I highly recommend this book ) yet am posting the topics that are relavent to this forum - Bharat Rakshak.

P.S: Throughout the book i saw a subtle theme of persecution similar to Christian persecutions. The original MB doesn't present any story of persecution but individual by individual dharmic test and their actions/consequences. My worry is that our next generations view our epics as records of persecutions (even that Shiva series has that underlying theme). Otherwise this book is great. I hope this book motivates our deracinated to read mB original.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 06 Sep 2012 16:41

I feel this kinds of stories are hight of imagination and nothing else guruji. I do not know any other "source" which support what you mentioned above. While I do not claim I know all the info on MH, as a Hindu I do have reasonable knowledge on the story of MH. In MH storyline, Vyaya or Vasishta and other rushis did not lead any political groups. Writers like KU need name and fame and invent all kinds of stories in the name of research. Ashok Banker wrote similar books on Ramayana story. You will feel serious pain in reading them. Droupadi married 5 persons and no one objected because the society then is more "libaral" then than today. Victorian (Cristian) values may find it wrong. But Hindus need not find reasons to justify the storyline to Mlechas and give all kinds of stupid reasons in the name of "research". We also have one book of Lord Shiva contending him as a tribal man from Tibet and its second and their parts are coming around.

Of course no one is having courage to write about Muslims and at least no one tocuhes Cristians.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 06 Sep 2012 18:53

NarayanaRao garu,

I agree 100% with your concerns. Please read the first para and the post script I wrote above, where I expressed the same concerns.

After reading and contemplating the few of many versions of MB and associated stories, I started to appreciate the wisdom of our seers. I will point a great story I came across and I translated for forum friends so you can see the insight for yourself.

I realized that it doesn't matter if Draupadi married or slept with how many and who. That interests/excites only the minds that are dwelling in the Muladhara or Swadhistana. No wonder Duryodhana/Karna/Dussasana/Sakuni became dustha-chatustayam.

Anyways, I liked some extrapolations KU drew w.r.t Indic geopolitics, internal dynamics and dharmic rationale, which are most important and valid for Bharatiya interests now and in future. Will write them in next few days.

At the same time, it is also important that we strive for improvement in Divine/Dharmic Quotient (DQ) in all Bharatiyas irrespective of their birth/caste/religion/social-status etc., Only the self-hating will think that their DQ depends upon those variables.

partha · Post by **partha** » 06 Sep 2012 19:49

shaardula wrote:in kannada there is a classic 'remake' of mahabharatha called gadhayuddha. basically it is all about the battle at vyshampayana between duryodhana and bheema. but it goes about the precedents to that battle in the form of flashback - ranna the author calls it simhavalokana.

since it is in old kannada, it is about accessible to modern day lay men as sanskrit. but once you have got a hang of the meter and have found a good teacher to break down complex sandhis, you get a hang of what ranna was going for. awesome, vivid stuff it is.

+ what it makes it unique is that it takes great pains to describe duryodhana's pov. we had an awesome teacher. by the time he was done with it, most of the class was rooting for suyodhana.

so when krushna thumps his thighs, to hint bheema on the sly, we were all so dissapointed. the greater disappointment was that bheema who was until then possibly the most chivalorous and brilliant pandava succumbed to it.

but then hey, there was no way he could have bettered duryodhana after gandhari had shielded him up using up her all powers. bheema had no special powers, simple human application he represents. but i personally love him because he avenged every single attrocity draupadi had to suffer. and always played the protective husband to her.

i would have loved him more if he would have held dharmaraja accountable for putting her in trouble in the first place. but hey, that is me speaking in 21st century. what do i know of nepotistic pressures of that era?

Sorry for replying so late (~ almost 3years> (Will retain ramanaji's apology

)

some thoughts on this -

I think understanding Mahabharata is tricky. We can get misled easily. No incident in Mahabharata should be viewed in isolation. Gadayuddha (I have not read it), if I am right, focuses on the war between Bhima and Duryodhana i.e it views that part of Mahabharata in isolation. Hence it is possible to derive a different meaning after reading it. It is even possible to praise Duryodhana as dharmic and condemn Bhima and Krishna as cheaters which was not the case. Mahabharata war was a dharmayuddha. It was a war for dharma. Dharma was supposed to win. Duryodhana was adharmic all his life - not sharing
the kingdom with Pandavas, attempt to kill them through deception (wax house), disrespecting a woman in the worst possible way so on and so forth. Duryodhana had received adharmic lessons in statecraft from a political master from Gandhara (who was invited by Shakuni to preach Duryodhana). If he had become the king, he would have turned out to be an evil ruler. Kamsa or Jarasandha 2.0. Taking all these into consideration, which I am sure the all knowing Krishna did, there was nothing wrong in Krishna helping out Bhima in finishing Duryodhana. Bhima was more powerful than Duryodhana and would have probably won on his own. krishna just accelerated the process. Also note that Bhima had declared during Draupadi's vastrabharana that he will break Duryodhana's thigh. Krishna just reminded him of that.
Bhima did take Dharmaraja to task for betting on Draupadi. Only he and Vidura (probably Arjuna too?) spoke out against the injustice with everyone else from Bhishma to Drona remaining silent.

What is dharma or adharma depends on the situation and circumstances, no?

Let me give an example - assume you are in Hitler's Germany. A Jew comes knocking on the door requesting for a hiding place to escape the Nazis. You grant him the permission to hide in your place. When the Nazis come looking, you would lie to them that there are no Jews in your house. If somebody reads about it not knowing about Nazi persecution of Jews, it would appear that you lied. Only when the complete picture is given that one can conclude you did the right thing.

You are walking on a road and see that a powerful man (you just can't over power him) is trying to rape a woman. You fortunately have a gun. Will you shoot him or not? In this case violence is dharma and non violence is adharma. But if someone just sees your shooting in isolation, it appears as adharma.

Lies, violence, cheating etc can be dharma depending on the situation. Similarly Ahimsa can be an act of adharma.

IMO, literary works like Gadayuddha might be awesome poetry to read and enjoy, but they might not give the full picture and mislead the reader.

PS: Some time ago, a friend of mine was in a heated argument with another friend. I had the misfortune of being present during the argument. He was so passionately arguing that it was in fact Duryodhana and Kauravas that were dharmic and Pandavas and Krishna were basically a bunch of cheaters. According to him adharma prevailed in MB. I thought Duryodhana himself had come down again to make his case. I remained silent for I am/was no Bhima.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Sep 2012 19:59

To add to partha's post even after the Pandavas left Duryodhana to die he authorized Aswhatthama as the senapati and ordered him to carry out the night attack on the Pandava camp and died only after hearing the death of the upa-Pandavas and Draupadi's relatives in the camp.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 07 Sep 2012 07:10

Excerpts from Krishna Udayashankar's Govinda - Part 1

Before going into the details I would like the members to refer to this map to understand the details. I am mixing up various sections to get a coherent picture.

For example, please note where Panchala is, it is not Punjab.

Despite the glory of being the king of West Kuru and building Indraprastha, Dharma had one regret. He could never forget that his triumph rested on the achievement of others.

It had been Partha who burnt down Kandava, and Govinda who had returned with a treaty with the Naga king Takshaka negotiated and sealed. When Kandava was burnt, Takshaka Naga and his people had migrated north to Kuru's fields at the border of the kingdom. There they had used their skill in working rock and stone to build a passage that connected directly to the five rivers that patterned their way thru the Sindhu and Gandhara kingdoms. Trade with Danavas and other nations to the west had boomed beyond expectation and it has soon become necessary to extend a section of the Great Road from Hastina to Indraprastha. Meanwhile work had begun on. Wide, well-cobbled caravan trail from the northern pass running right thru western Kuru, it met the Great Road at Indraprastha.

Govinda also helped build the newly appointed army of western kuru, sending his war-hardy captain Daruka to help train forces.

Also there is more than romance and hurt egos to Govinda's help in getting Rukmavati, the princes of Vidarbha kingdom and daughter of Rukmi, married to Pradyumna, adopted son of Govinda after breaking her planned marriage with king of Chedi, Sisupala. If the alliance between Chedi and Vidarbha had gone as planned then Dwaraka would effectively have been cut off fom central Aryavarta. Sooner or later Sishupala and Jarasandha would have attacked Dwaraka and Indraprastha wouldn't have been able to help hem. Govinda has achieved what many considered impossible. And that too without a war. Here in the center the Kuru-Panchala alliance holds strong while the Chedi-Vidarbha alliance has been foiled.

The point that Sisupala and Duryodhana did not fight Govinda (during the elopement of Rukmini wih Pradyumna - only Rukmi fought with Govinda) means that Jarasandha's power has been undermined already in that his most faithful followers have begun to think for themselves instead of blindly supporting him (it was Jarasandha who planned this Chedi-Vidarbha alliance to begin with).

Indeed, Dharmaraja was now monarch of a bustling, prosperous nation, one he ruled from his etherical capital, which many said was the most beautiful city in all of Aryavarta. Yet nothing here was of his making. Now he had an idea, a way to ensure that he could indelibly etch his own mark on history.

He shared it with Vyasa, the moment the two of them were alone.

He wanted to become Emperor of Aryavarta by doing Rajasuya

But there is more to becoming Emperor than just being crowned. First, the kings of Aryavarta must accept him as their liege-lord. Second, the noble scholar-priests must sanctify his ritual sacrifice and willingly perform his coronation. Above all, the gods must accept his offering and consecrate as Emperor.

Vyasa tells Dharma
perhaps the third is the easiest of all. In your heart, in the depths of your consciousness, do you believe that you deserve to rule? For then the gods can't deny you the opportunity and for that matter, neither can we of the priesthood.

Then it is up to the kings of Aryavarta. You must get them to accept your dominion. You will have no problem with the Panchalas, thanks to your wife. And as for the Kuru's, I assure you that the Grandsire Bhishma and I will be happy to advise your uncle to support you. Your cousin Syoddhan has many allies and they too can be made to accept you as Emperor.

But there remains a fundamental problem. To solve it you will need Govinda Shauri.

Jarasandha. Jarasandha is Emperor and as king of western Kuru you owe him your allegiance. For you to dethrone him and then declare yourself Emperor would be.... Unwise. The legitimacy of your actions should never be compromised.

Dharma, listen to me. Aryavarta doesn't need civil war. Everyone knows that. Even Jarasandha. As I said, I can get many of the kings - your uncle Dhritarashtra and your cousins Syoddhan included - to accept you as their emperor, provided we don't upset their reign p, or their consciousness.

For both of these you need to let Govinda bring down the emperor for you, let it play out as a personal affair between the two men. I too won't interfere, except perhaps to ensure discretion and smooth a few ruffled egos one the deed is done. Then when Aryavarta lies bereft of leadership due to Govinda's actions, you will step forward to bear the burden.

Govinda becoming an emperor is impossible. He will lose the legitimacy he has gained over the years. He also knows that it will take a civil war for him to become the Emperor (because many kings - who put their honor, glory for being Kshatriyas by birth and lineage, will not accept a cow herder become their emperor.) No one wants to avoid civil war more than he does.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 07 Sep 2012 10:01

http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/panchala/index.html
Ramay, where bhagirati river in that map?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 07 Sep 2012 11:08

Bhaagirathi is another name of Ganga. AFAIK, until triveni sangama of Rudra Prayag in Himalayas, Ganga flows in three streams- Alaknandaa, Bhaagirathi and one more whose name evades my memory at the moment. But these names along with many others are other names of Ganga.

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 07 Sep 2012 18:01

Great reply Partha. Also it is said , when fighting with Adharmiks, it is not necessary to follow the Dharma strictly. Bheeshma, Drona et al were personally Dharmics but their survival would mean the flag of adharma would fly over Bharatvarsha. So they had to go in the larger interests of Dharma prevailing over the society.

<OT ON>
When I was studying in school, one of my muslim classteacher who did not know head and tail of Mahabharata read a AmarChitrakatha comic story of Karna and told the same in story telling period.
She criticised pandavas to such an extent . But there was huge shouting in class, when we started that this is not the case. Many filled her up with details. She was adamant. Thinking back now, I really feel astonished that at such a young age most of the class rose up against the story.
One guy brought his parents to school next day and they berated the teacher for telling the wrong story. The HM who was a hindu told her to stick to generic moral stories.
<OT Off>

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 07 Sep 2012 19:36

I was quite young - The girls were given Bible distributed and kept them on the Table. The Children were asked to take the book on the table. - None of the kids were not even ready to touch the book and all the bibles were kept on the tables in the school with not even one was even touched by kids about 10 years or less aged. I still remeber it.

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Sep 2012 20:50

Why have I not heard of it??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raja_Sukhdeo

Battle of Bahraich

The nephew of Mahmood Gazni, known as Masud Gazni, invaded India with army of more than 100,000 men in May 1031. This time, the army was not a raiding party like that of Mahmood who came with intention of raiding, looting and retreating with the loot to Afghanistan. They were backed by the imperial army Persian empire and came here with the intention of permanent conquest and Islamization of India.
King Anandpal Shahi tried to check this Gazni advance towards heartland of India. He was helped by King of Sialkot, Rai Arjun. But, this alliance was overwhelmed by superiority of numbers of Pathan army. After defeating Anandpal Shahi and Rai Arjun, Masood advanced towards towards Malwa and Gujarat. King Mahipal Tomara tried to check their advance here but was defeated too.
After victories across North Indian plains, Masood Gazni settled at Bahraich near Lucknow. He stayed here up to mid 1033. Meanwhile, 17 Rajput Kings of north India forged an alliance. This is biggest confederation that have ever existed in India . They were Rai Raib, Rai Saib, Rai Arjun, Rai Bheekhan, Rai Kanak, Rai Kalyan, Rai Makaru, Rai Savaru, Rai Aran, Rai Birbal, Rai Jaypal, Rai Shreepal, Rai Harpal, Rai Hakru, Rai Prabhu, Rai Deo Narayan and Rai Narsinha. Various kshatriya clans that participated in this war included Bhale-sultans, Bais Rajputs, Arkawanshi kshatriyas, Kalhans Rajputs, Raikwars and bhar warriors. The head of this confederation was Raja Sukhdev, a Gurjara-Rajput King.

In June 1033, as per Hindu traditions, Masood Gazni was intimated by Rajput confederation that the land belonged to Rajputs and Hindus and Masood should evacuate these lands. Masood replied that all land belongs to Khuda and hence he would not retreat.
On 13 June, Morning, Rajput army of about 120,000 descended on Gazni camp of Bahraich. Masood's army was completely besieged and encircled. The battle continued for hours. In the end, each and every man in Masood's camp was killed. No POW's were taken, no mercy was shown on the Afghan army. The location of this battle to be precise was near Chittaura Jheel, a lake about 8 KM away from modern Bahraich on Bahraich-Gond Road. The battle ended on 14 June with Victory of Raja Sukhdev and his Rajput alliance.On the evening of 14 June 1033, Sunday Salar Masud was beheaded by Raja Sukhdeo. The battle ended with Victory of Raja Sukhdev and his Rajput alliance.
The invasion was completely crushed and such resounding was this victory that none of the king from Northwest dared to invade India for 160 years.
This is one of the golden pages of Indian History. India is indebted to series of Rajput Kings along the western border of India and in Central India. They were extremely instrumental in keeping Arab invaders at bay for 3 centuries. This was the time when Arabs were at their zenith. The Khilafat extended from Western Sindh to Spain. However, they could not defeat Rajputs and enter Indian heartlands.
The location of this battle to be precise was near Chittaura Jheel, a lake about 8 kilometres (5.0 mi) away from modern Bahraich on Bahraich-Gond Road.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Sep 2012 23:56

SaiK wrote:http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/panchala/index.html
Ramay, where bhagirati river in that map?

Try this map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... anges1.jpg

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 08 Sep 2012 23:35

harbans wrote:
The reason Hinduism is so special is because a hindu cannot totally cut his links from India. A dharmik can.
That can be said of every faithful in any region of the planet. Nothing to make the Hindu special. He is after all defined by a foreigner to belong to a particular geographical region off the Indus river. Even the paki's who left after partitions from UP have not disclaimed India. Heck Musharaff has not, nor Kiyani. They all would love having it all back. Green flag over the red fort..beloved India here i am. All those invaders loved India..and they kept coming with swords, guns, canons..A true Dharmic will NEVER cut his roots off from India. NEVER.

India is the land and origin of Dharma:..Righteousness, Compassion, Equality, Search..Truth. 5 words..Ramay ji.

I was reading a book on Tantra and Yoga yesterday and this question came to my mind. Can one separate Dharma from Hinduism and Bharat? I don't think so.

I see many efforts by EJs and the liberals who think Dharma is different from Hinduism. How would they describe the divine consciousness that is adhistana or a given chakra and how would the seeker visualize the consciousness dominated by a given chakra like a Ganesha, Lakshmi, Saraswati, Kali, Vishnu, Shiva etc?

What would be a dharmic equivalent of such a manifestation, if it were to be different from Hinduism? Would they come up with another Ganesha or would it be Abraham/David/Ayesha or what? Would a non-Hindu dharmic perceive that divine consciousness manifestation different from a Hindu?

How far we can go from Hinduism so we are dis-covered by it!

Do I make any sense?

nakul · Post by **nakul** » 08 Sep 2012 23:39

Let me try

If you consider science & religion inseparable, dharma & hinduism are same

If separate, dharma is science & hinduism is a religion.

partha · Post by **partha** » 09 Sep 2012 00:13

Good explanation of how Abhimanyu broke into the Chakravyuh -

http://www.quora.com/Mahabharata/What-w ... ahabharata

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 09 Sep 2012 00:15

How far we can go from Hinduism so we are dis-covered by it!

Do I make any sense?

Nope. You don't. Hinduism is well proven to believe in millions of Gods, worship of rats. It is different from the upanashadic religions, the Jains, Buddhistic religions that EJ s an Liberals are right. They can define Hinduism. You can't Ramay ji. You go by what they define..and then you regret it? They created it. They can bottle neck the description too, while you frustrate yourself. I am still awaiting your 5 word definition challenge as per you. I gave you..your turn.