Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

[member_23651]

Upshot of all that is that we need special Laws which would have better conviction rate and deterrent value.

next comes implementation We shall examine next.

I thin we need Law enforcement agencies and judiciary who is free to do their job, and should be made to their job. Without that every law is bound to fail where high and mighty's influence comes into play...

[yogendra]

Yogendra,

What facts, other than some middle aged male pontificating about how India is soo-pee-rear and hence is all perfect already.

This sort of thinking is endemic to India. The vast majority of males think this way.

Yet here we are, in the how to make India safe for women thread.

The factual rebutal against the incessant breast beating that gangrapes happens only in India? It was the first point.

[ramana]

Folk discussing other countries is nice for data but wont solve Indian problems. Despite world statistics, in India women feel unsafe for a variety of reasons. And Indian laws and enforcement have to deal with that perception. So saying its better than xxx country doesn't fix that problem right? So with in the solution constraints try o find the solution if you can.
Lilio has done a good job of bring about awareness of violence against women in India. How many of you with twitter accounts follow the account?
What can you suggest to improve the data? Can you help him validate the news reports?
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Chaanakya, Thanks for clarifying the legal position. When the chargesheet comes out on Jan 3(Why the delay?) please let us know how it was framed.


Can you comment on the lax language of the IPC. It looks like its written in favor of the perpetrator. And it hasn't changed since 1862.

[Prasad]

As for "wimmin feeling safer in Amerika", if the western countries, esp America is so safe then why are there so many rapes reported there in the first place. Percentage wise they may be less than what is believed(believed is the key word here) to be the real percentage in India. But the figure is still pretty high.

And for these Indian women who feel safe there, let them go stay in some ghetto, alone and unarmed, roam around late at night wearing short clothes. Then lets see if they say the same thing.

Nuff said!

This sort of nonsense still exists? Precisely why a number of women don't even want to talk about these issues and get away from it all. Read the earlier post of a young woman who still doesn't want to move back to India. And you, all of your mighty pontificating self, tell her to go to a ghetto? Brilliant. A woman who feels safer wearing shorts in a city compared to the city she grew up in, where even when she was a salwar wearing 18 year old was grabbed, groped and molester, is now told to walk into a ghetto and attempt to stay safe. Convoluted logic if I have ever heard of it.

Now do you folk see why this problem is so difficult to fight in our country?

Personal experience talk - I'm not going to generalise. Every single lady that I know has had atleast one experience of being groped or grabbed or eve-teased on the streets, in buses, movie theatres, everywhere. Many of them have worked in India for years before moving to the US for various periods and their experiences have been vastly different. Heck, how many people do you think talk to womens breasts instead of their face? Go ask any girl you know this same question and you'll be surprised at the answer. Yes, women get groped in the NY subway everyday too. Go read Jezebel to read accounts of so many women who have been in such incidents. Nobody is denying that either!

Example #2 - http://daddysan.wordpress.com/2012/12/2 ... n-capital/
Read the comments too. All 204 of them.

The Subjugation Capital

Having pontificated for two days over the tornado of protests that have hit Delhi, I found time to contemplate if I *really* knew what they were protesting about. So I asked someone who has lived there and experienced the alternating splendor and horror of Delhi; my wife. This is what she had to say.

I love Delhi, the city. I love its wide, open roads, its wonderful architecture. I’ve made great friends in Delhi. I went to a wonderful school in Delhi. I’ve also suffered in Delhi. I’m one of millions of women with tales to tell of how Delhi has ground our self-respect and security to dust. General descriptions of harassment can’t adequately describe the horror a woman faces every day in the city. There isn’t a single moment when you’re walking its streets that you can think “I’m safe, I can breathe easy and enjoy the sunshine. What a lovely day!” If you have breasts, you’re fair game. It doesn’t matter who you are, where you’re from, how old you are, you can be a man’s property. You can be used for his gratification. You can be dominated.

I don’t want to recount the hundreds of times I’ve been groped in crowds in Delhi. Hands moving over you, pinching your bottom, rubbing your breasts as you desperately try to find some inch of ground that will be safe. Women routinely carry sharp objects like needles and drawing instruments to dissuade such attacks but there are too many incidents to deal with.

Once, while attending a wedding in Delhi, I was at a friend’s place and was about to leave for the venue. I called the bride’s mom to tell her I’ll walk down to the venue and I heard an unmistakable sense of terror creep into her voice. She dropped the bonhomie and almost shouted at me to stay where I was. She would send a car. I laughed and told her that she was being ridiculous. Her response was that of anger. “Stay where you are. DON’T MOVE! I’m sending a car. DO NOT walk alone, especially all dressed up. There’s no telling what might happen.” The venue was two blocks away in Southex, a very posh part of Delhi. It was five thirty in the evening and it was broad daylight.

I accompanied my friend’s relatives to a function at Pragati Maidan. With us was her 70 year-old grandmother. The lady was a widow, dressed in the characteristic white sari. She hobbled on a walking stick. The ground was crowded and dusty. As we made our way through the crowd, a young adolescent boy shoved his hand between her legs. He felt up a seventy year old woman hobbling on a walking stick. We were unable to reconcile this incident with any semblance of logic or sense. Why did this happen? Just. It was a female with female parts, which of course are the property of every human in Delhi blessed with a penis.

As a student in Delhi, I’d attend tuitions literally across the road from where we stayed. The proprietor was a burly man with a shy fourteen year old son. Every evening, after classes dispersed, it was that young boy’s job to make sure we girls safely crossed the street. That’s all. He’d just stand outside the gate and make sure we crossed a distance of fifty feet safely. He wasn’t worried about us being hit by cars. He was making sure we didn’t get molested. If a mob of men had shown up, the poor boy wouldn’t stand a chance. And yet, he’d be there every evening, standing alert and looking responsible for us.

If you think misogyny and sexism are the refuge of the rich and powerful alone, think again. As I sat in a car in Delhi, a beggar came up to my window, begging for alms. A pathetic creature shod in tatters. He saw that I was a woman and suddenly his demeanor changed. His face lit up in an evil sneer and he started flicking his tongue in and out. I was so stunned I laughed. Here’s this pathetic creature with no food or clothes to sustain him but so desperate was his sexual need and so fearless his demeanor that it trumped all else. A woman can be ******. Should be ******. Oh, and can I also have some money for food?

Delhi’s sexist culture is a festering cesspool that permeates its families. A friend of mine lived in a joint family in a palatial house. Rich, educated folk. I remember we were nine year old girls, hanging out at her house, playing with Barbie dolls. Her younger male cousins barged in and started creating a ruckus. We shooed them away, treating them as a nuisance but they had a stunning response up their sleeve. These boys brought their GI Joe figurines and said “hum tumhare Barbies ka rape karenge”. We were stunned. These were six or seven year old boys. They probably didn’t even know what rape was. They didn’t even know how it was done. But they knew it can be used to teach women a lesson. They must’ve heard their fathers and uncles talk about putting women in their place. “Zyaada bak bak karegi toh uska rape kar denge.” This is also why I find casual remarks or jokes about rape extremely unfunny.

This dehumanization of being, steady erosion of self-respect, the constant looking over your shoulder no matter where you are, is what makes Delhi such a horrible place for women. There are some well-reasoned arguments why we shouldn’t trivialize the larger issues surrounding rape by laying blame at the doorstep of one city alone, but there’s a reason for this insidious association; it breeds and lives on the fear that power creates. Let’s just call Delhi the capital of subjugation. I also need to mention that I’ve never felt this CONSTANTLY afraid in any other city in India. You can quote examples of rapes in Mumbai, Kolkata, or other cities and you’d have a point. This pathetic patriarchal culture pervades India, but there’s no other place quite like Delhi where patriarchy and power mingle to create a sense of male entitlement.

I saw pictures of these young girls standing their ground getting beaten up, screaming in the cops’ faces. Learned pundits question why. What is the point of this protest anyway? What do they want? It’s a pity they can’t even see this basic point. They want to be treated as humans again. I read about the rape in Delhi and the anger in me has refused to go away. Memories of those years of harassment came flooding back. If you’re a woman in Delhi, you’ve been groped and violated five times a day since you were eight. Since you were too young to even know what breasts are and what they can do to men. My years in Delhi exacted a heavy price from me. I’d instinctively step back when a man entered my personal space. This instinct finally started ebbing away after I moved to Pune. Even there, I’d instantly be on my guard, alert and tense, when a man looked over my shoulder as I worked on the laptop. This was because of Delhi and it took years for it to go away.

When you’d get molested for the first time you’d come back tearfully to tell your mother or the other grown women in your family. “Kya karein beta, aisa hi hota hai”. What can you do, this is how it is. That crushing realization as an eight year old girl that you’re somehow going to have to deal with this for the rest of your life. Groped by the domestic help, groped by the boy who delivers the groceries, groped by your uncle. Never being able to step out unless you have a “man” accompanying you. Men, who deal with the status quo without changing it. Men, who ironically feel a greater sense of entitlement by being the “protectors” of their women. This feeling is what that girl in the protest is screaming against.

I’m still angry when I see those pictures because I haven’t moved on. I’m angrier when I read men lamenting about what ails us. Here’s a reality check: if you’re a man, you don’t know what the ****** you’re talking about. You have NO IDEA what it’s like to live a life that doesn’t belong to you. I understand your sympathy but have no use for it.

I’m angrier when I read scholarly articles about civil society, better governance and societal and infrastructural reforms. I read words like five years and “long term” and seethe. Of course one wants to live in a civil society that believes in redemption and the rehabilitation of its worst members but you have no bloody idea what you’re dealing with in Delhi. These are men who operate on an animal instinct. You need a brutal deterrent, employed continuously and consistently in the short term to let them know we mean business. When you’re cornered by a wolf snarling and baring its fangs do you lecture it on the sanctity of life? No, you react. If I could come face to face with these brave men of Delhi who tormented me, I’d shoot them between the eyes. Even today, if a man stares at me a moment longer than necessary I have this visceral urge to rip his eyes out.

So ****** you and your calls for long term change. Don’t waste my time talking about the next five years. Tell me what you’re going to do in the next five hours when your mother, sister or wife leaves the safety of her home and wades into the filthy muck of the city, telling herself that there’s a distinct possibility she may not come home unviolated or even alive.

Edit from Mommysan – Thank you so much for your comments and concern. I want to clarify that not all of the examples of harassment or abuse I mentioned in the post involved me directly. The incidents in the latter half of the post involve people close to me. For example, I know the 8 year old who tearfully complained to her mother about harassment for the first time, because I was present in the room with her. I know someone who’s faced abuse at the hands of family members. The point of this post isn’t to dwell on specific examples alone, but to communicate the extent to which a woman’s liberties are disrespected. It’s to highlight how such horrifying incidents get swept under the sanitized terms “molestation” and “eve-teasing”, which dulls their severity and impairs understanding of the circumstances that enable them. The examples you’ve so courageously shared in the comments will also go a long way in this regard.

This is what is happening in our country. Comparison, be in in esoterical terms of feeling safe, or in hard numbers terms to any country, developed or developing, is an act in futility. There will always be rapes, no matter what country. What matters, is whether redress is available to women if it does occur, and how safe do women "feel" wherever they are. That is the whole point. Redress acts as a deterrent.

[chaanakya]

It is not that Simple when most of us cant lead our daily lives without breaking one or two Laws ( or 25 as theo would say)

The system makes us non abiding by and large and enforcement becomes an issue. That breeds tolerance towards behavior against the Law. And enforcement becomes slack as we are too compromised , none spared.

That is the reason for special circumstances we need special laws just like Anti Terror laws, though all offenses can be covered under IPC. Evidence standards in IPC are more stringent then in special laws which provide for relaxed standards having regards to circumstances . Prone to misuse but that is the price we have to pay for general lack of law abiding behaviour among ordinary citizens.

[Theo_Fidel]

Chaanakya,

How is it that people go from blasting through a red light to groping a woman as she walks down the street. How can that be equivalent. Because there is no concept of private space maybe?

[chaanakya]

Raman Garu IPC is heavily loaded against the Victim of rape.

let us see how

1. It does not recognise the socio-cultural aspects and the weaker/submissive position of Women vis a vis man
2.It places the onus of proving rape on the Accuser beyond doubt.
3. It needs penetration to constitute rape. Mere disrobing and touching or forcing on the body of woman without penetration would not be rape. It would be assault.
4. When evidence Act is applied , the type of questions that are asked ( in reference to IPC question) are to be seen to believe,. It does not recognise the fact that Our women would feel uncomfortable to answer such questions asked by a male investigator/prosecutor/defence lawyers in a predominantly male proceedings.
5. IPC puts women in a vulenrable position when it is a know fact that women dont find it easy to discuss these things openly whether forced or consensual.

One example of such ingrained prejudices is non consensual sex by Husband when wife is a minor ( or even Major) above 15 years but below 18 years is not rape though forced and unwilling penetration may occur.

It also does not recognise the fact that touch by a non family member , third person is treated as offensive in our society ( though many might find it titilating to grope a woman against her will) and not properly classified as sexual offence.

Only in TamilNadu eve teasing is recognised as serious offence under a special Act and treated as sexual in nature.Otherwise it has to be deat with in some obtuse clauses of IPC and would never stick. It is difficult to prove mens rea in absence of corroborative evidence.

There is always a possibility of missue but then it is a price we should be willing to pay to make street and office premises. domestic and public places safer for them

[Sagar G]

The reason why the word of the victim is taken as the truth is because the courts know that the system has failed intentionally or otherwise to produce any other shred of forensic/medical evidence. If this is because of police apathy, then putting the onus on correcting that back on the failed system won't work.

Oh so now the courts are an independent authority with nothing to do with the system in place they just magically sprouted out of nowhere on a beautiful sunny day ??? Courts are not "believing" the complainant because they think system has failed but they are doing so because they know that being a part of the system they have horribly failed as well to provide any sense of justice to the citizens. Hence taking the statement of alleged victim as the "gospel of truth". SC even after all it's "heroics and machismo" hasn't been able to make states government to follow it's 2006 order of implementing the Police Reforms. You can fool anyone only upto a point by blaming the cops for failing the system but the hard reality is that the system has failed them.

Cases are not filed immediately because the police dilly dally to verify and investigate the charge and then - if there is no money making potential - file the case. You also have been repeatedly stating that the SOP is for a forensic examination. If it is a SOP then why is almost everyone (including the courts causing them to give more weight-age to victim's words) complaining about the lack of medical/forensic evidence?

See making assumptions like the one you make that cops always are on the run for money will only blind your logic and keep you pushing towards irrationality. Had it been so then how come many thousands conviction happen as well ??? And it can be very well possible that the cases in which convictions aren't happening are genuine only i.e. no rape was done. Since your personal belief is that the victims testimony is the "gospel of truth" and what you see around doesn't fit your pet theory you automatically judge that the system has failed, police is totally corrupt hence victims don't file cases immediately. While you are not entirely wrong but it's not the thumb rule that applies all the time.

I don't see "everyone" complaining about lack of forensic evidence, please point out where "everyone" is complaining about lack of forensic evidence.

You seem to have overlooked a very important point said by Madhu Kishwar in that article she says....

“In most cases the tendency of our legislature is that if there is consistent failure to deliver justice whether it is anti-dowry laws or anti-rape laws, if the police don’t do honest investigation… instead of fixing the police, instead of expediting court proceedings what we tend to do is to make laws more draconian,” Kishwar said.

and another very good one...

“The burden of proof is very often put on the accused as is the case with anti-dowry or domestic violence laws. The testimony of the person who claims to be the victim is supposed to be given much greater weightage. In a way this is good sense because women are treated shoddily. Rape trials tend to be so ugly that it’s like being publicly raped all over again. The rape law says the identity of the victim cannot be disclosed because women’s lives are ruined if they are publicly identified. Here we have declared the alleged perpetrator of crime a rapist even before the trial,” Kishwar added.

She is saying that instead of fixing the system we end up doing chootiyapanti (I am breaking it down to common parlance so that no one misses the message) and that's what I am also trying to say that stop doing chootiyapanti and start fixing the system.

Expecting the police to carry out an impartial and proper investigation is again passing the ball back to the current failed system.

Again taking the easy way out by blaming the 24x7 available bakra instead of trying to understand where the actual problem lies.

The article is based on an old discussion from Shiney Ahuja's case from before his conviction. His guilt has been established and he has been convicted based only on the fast action of the police (because of pressure from women's group) and the immediate medical examination and forensic analysis. What about many many more cases where rich/powerful men are involved, eg Abhishek Kasliwal, son of the owner of Shriram Mills

Shiney Ahuja convicted !!! You should update yourself and do a bit more reading other wise you will only end up humiliating yourself.

Shiney Ahuja rape case: Victim not to face perjury charges

HC expedites Shiney Ahuja's appeal against conviction in rape case

I don't give a damn about shiney or any other blah-blah-wood moron but for the sake of stating facts putting up the links. I didn't knew about Kasliwal's case but doing a quick search and read throws up this

Abhishek Kasliwal walks free from 2006 rape case

Timeline of the case

Abhishek KasliwalMarch 11, 2006: Case registered against Kasliwal

March 13: Police records statement of Dinesh Shetty and Stephanie Jordan, who claim that he has a record of drug abuse and sexual violence

March 17: Jordan claims she had earlier introduced Kasliwal and the 52-yr-old victim, contradicting the victim

March 21: Cops say polygraph and brain mapping tests will help case

April 20: Kasliwal granted bail, asked to stay away from Mumbai

March 24, 2007: Police says it is clueless about whereabouts of the victim

July: Prosecution asks court to proceed with trial by examining other witnesses

February 2009: HC raps police for being unable to trace victim

June: Victim is traced, identifies Kasliwal as the man who had raped her in a Mercedes Benz on March 11, 2006.

March 30, 2011: Court acquits Kasliwal

I don't understand what are you finding problematic here ???

(I am assuming that medical examination also involves forensic samples being collected and analyzed. The reason why I am not sure is that, the SOP for child sexual abuse specifically states at STEP 14.
The investigating officer shall promptly refer for forensic examination clothing and articles necessary to be examined, to the forensic laboratory which shall deal with such cases on priority basis to make its report available at an early date.)

I am no expert but what I have gathered up from reading and can think of logically is that during medical examination it is established whether penetration happened or not, whether there is injury to the victims private part or not and to also collect forensic samples like semen left over victims body, blood/hair or any other DNA left by the attacker. These are then collected and then sent to a Forensic Lab which then carries out forensic investigations over the samples.

The SOP to be followed to investigate Child rape cases tends to tutor the cops more in the initial steps that's why it has been pushed to no.14 but look at what has been said from procedure no.12 to 14.

12. The investigating officer shall ensure that the child victim is medically examined at the earliest preferably within twenty four hours ( in accordance with Section 164-A Cr.P.C.) at the nearest government hospital or hospital recognized by the government.

13. The investigating officer shall ensure that the investigating team visits the site of the crime at the earliest to secure and collect all incriminating evidence available.

14. The investigating officer shall promptly refer for forensic examination clothing and articles necessary to be examined, to the forensic laboratory which shall deal with such cases on priority basis to make its report available at an early date.

Now what would happen if we moved the step d) -specifically the medical examination- to step a)? How is that going to increase or decrease the chance of the law being misused than what it currently is? Infact with the forensic evidence being the basis for all rape cases, the court can become more accommodating of the accused's version too.

You are not reading the SOP properly the step a is actually a directive ordered by the court to be followed by the cops 24 x 7 so the SOP to be followed when a rape case is being investigated starts from b. Now what does b,c,d say's
b. Comfort the victim and her family
c. Call Rape Crisis Cell
d. After making preliminary enquiry/investigation, the Investigation Officer along with the lady police official/officer available, escort the victim for medical examination.

Now why has the court said this and placed it in third position of SOP ???? Here is a hint for you....

Deaf & dumb girl fakes rape drama in Trombay

I don't want the onus of the impartial investigation to be in the hands of the local police. It is not going to happen. The victim needs to have the option to only disclose the perps name after the medical test and forensic sample are collected and stored.

This would correct the asymmetry in the system because the women is not just a victim but also the (container of the) evidence. The woman must have the option to select which she wants to be at what stage not the police or anyone else. She can be the evidence initially and one's it is duplicated (in the form of forensic samples) can go back to becoming the victim by naming the perp.

I have already given many articles and logically tried to make you see the fallacy in your argument but if you insist going round and round whining about the same thing then I don't have anything else to discuss with you.

[chaanakya]

Chaanakya,

How is it that people go from blasting through a red light to groping a woman as she walks down the street. How can that be equivalent. Because there is no concept of private space maybe?

I think its a power equation. manliness or ego. Women are treated as subject. Breaking the Law is prerogative of thsoe who feel power or want to feel it. The bribe giver is alway in a powerless situation. that is why there is special law which takes more stringent action on taker.

Similarly blasting through red light gives them a psychological edge. excitement and sense of power. No one ca do any thing to them. The display of wealth or firing of arms in celebration is also in the same vein.


I think if there was no concept of private space then we would not feel violated. It is very much there but it is limited. Women's place is in home . That is her private space and there she is master of all. She has no business to be out in a public places where only men should roam. In fact it is men's private space that is in Public . Once women enter that space they invade the privacy of men. hence they are easy target. We as a society are yet to approve that though things are changing.

Our concept of private space is surrounded by four walls for women. But women have different thinking. Being person they have same private space even in public places. Hence while men do not feel sanctity they feel violated when their personal space is invaded.

In Europe and America things were different. Women went on to become liberated from the substandard position because, and I say this tentatively one may differ, of two world war which led women to take charge of Home from and they wen out worked in offices while men killed each other in wars. That was to become their private space. When later men returned , they , perhaps found no alternative but to accept and give due respect to what was now their private space in public.

i dont know if I made any sense.

[Theo_Fidel]

In keeping with the theme. I have to say I agree...
What is the proportion of women gainfully employed in the problem areas?

http://bovinewings.blogspot.in/2012/12/ ... woman.html

A letter to an Indian woman

Dear anguished Indian woman

I have always been a feminist.Basically I have always believed that men and women are equals.Maybe this is because I was brought up in a family where my being a girl was never an issue. At school I saw that only the sports competitions differentiated between the sexes. And so I learned that men are physically stronger. But everywhere else we were equals. So when I started realizing that there were people in the world who thought it wasn't so, I was greatly amazed. And then I found out that many had fought for my right to sit in the same classroom with the boys. That made no sense. Because I figured out what 2 plus 2 was and so did the boy sitting next to me. There were no extra classes for girls. We weren't slow or anything.

And yet as I kept growing, I learnt that this was a world that hates women. As a teenager I learnt what rape was. It was a devastating thing to have to know about. That’s when feminism became anti-men for me. Men were stronger. Men had penises. Men were responsible. Men had been doing this for centuries. And with this ideology I felt utter helplessness. Because what could I do now? How could I make things better? And then there were questions. How is female education gonna help? We gotta cure the men somehow. And there was disgust. And there was anguish.

And then in the second year of college, my view of feminism changed completely. I met a girl, a smart competent girl and she honestly believed that men were intellectually superior. Here was a girl in an NIT on the cusp of a corporate career who honestly believed that half the population was smarter than her. And the more I tried to reason with her, the more insistent she became. That was just absurd. Personally I have quite a healthy sized ego and I just couldn't figure out why a girl would really think of herself as inferior. And slowly I figured it out. She believed it because somewhere in her upbringing this is what society had communicated to her. She believed it because her family had somehow taught her this. And then I started thinking. And what I realized is that if your parents say you are an ape, you sort of start believing that you are an ape over a period of time. Whatever the mirror may say. Because our parents define the world for us. They tell us of the sky and the moon and of food and our sex. And we love them so much and we owe them so much. We can’t discard what they say. It clings on. And that is what had happened with this girl. How could I , some random girl she met in college, wipe over what she had learnt from the people she loved more than life?

And suddenly it wasn’t the men anymore. It was society. And suddenly education made sense. Because education may make you question. When I added 2 and 2 and so did the boy next to me, I might, just might wonder, hey, I am not slower than him afterall. And then when I join a job and I work and get results, I might, just might wonder, hey, I am not so bad am i?

And so ladies, A girl would grow to respect herself. A girl would earn the respect that society has denied her for centuries. And so my only solution to what we face today is : Study and then work.

Work even if it drives you nuts. Work even if you can’t take the stress. And work most of all for the sake of your children.

Children,you say? The ones who you feel you abandon every time you leave the home to work?The one who you have this whole guilt trip over?

Yes, your children. (Oh btw I have got a working mum so please reserve the nasties)

Firstly, your children will not require in the exact same way throughout their lives. Your one year old needs you physically present 24/7 but can you say the same about your 9 year old who goes to school, has football practice and friends to play with in the evening? And what about your 15 year old, do you see him/her before dinner time anyway? But what your 9 year old needs is that you know what is going on his/her life, that you know hows school going and who his/her friends are. Will your job come in the way of this especially in this age of mobile phones soon to be video phones? Most probably not. Also Your children will always love you. Unless you really really screw things up. The love that you feel is a two way street. Your working and not spending your afternoons with them will never change that. See the way my mom is my idol.

Secondly, your son and daughter need to see you as an individual. They need to see how you can earn money, lead people and achieve things. They need to see this so they learn to respect you. They need to be proud of you. Because the way they think of you, is how they will think of women. Your daughters will see your strength and follow suit. Your sons will see your strength and learn to see women as individuals not sex objects. You will raise a good man and good woman by setting an example

Thirdly and most importantly, motherhood is a full time job. It doesn't end when your kid is 15 or 16. It lasts for life.

I started working less than a year ago. And I am a novice trying to make sense of bosses, office politics, projects, stress- all of it. But the one support I have, the one mentor I have is my mother. Because I may bitch about office to my friends but they are all like me : new. But my mother has lived through every thing that I will experience in the next quarter of a century. And of course she loves me in a way that only she can
.
So please work. Work so that you are not just loved. Work so that you are respected. And some day little by little your children will set this horrible imbalance right. Someday all this “battle of the sexes” stuff will end. Someday there can be peace. Because we should live peacefully side by side. Man and woman. The way it was intended.

[ramana]

SagarG, Yogendra, Theo, Please concisely state your views and not go on polemics. Thanks, ramana

Anyone else who has an opinion can do so an not feel slighted that I didn't ask you.

The thread is going no where with arguments that others cant follow.

[ramana]

@violenceonwomen has just 8 followers:

https://twitter.com/Violenceonwomen/followers

Where are all the high mighty talkers?

Spread the feed folks its not like a big deal for you.

[svinayak]

It can happen remarkably quick. So. Ko. went from arranged marriage to personal responsibility from 1940's to 1970's. One generation.

THis is fake claims and does not have any basis

Western culture has no bearing on this thing and it does not apply to India atleast.

[svinayak]

Pray tell bhai log how you make India safe for women without embracing modernity. Enquiring minds want to know.
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What is 'embracing modernity'.? What is is 'Modernity'? What is 'western modernity'?
Is it real or is it some media created social engineering.?

[Manny]

When Kiran Bedi came to clean up this congress town, they threw her out.

Kiran Bedi...a brave INDIAN woman is a villain in the eyes of the "sick-ular" congressies. Krian Bedi as PM would clean up this Sadom and Gomrrah town of N.Delhi in a NY minute.

[Theo_Fidel]

Ramana,

Hold on. Right now we can't even agree if there is a problem or not. Ironically exonerating the entire GOI and essential going with MMS's theek hai.

I have to these opinions don't surprise me at all. This too is India.

[Muppalla]

Way to go. Instead of intellectual masturbation of whether Hinduism should be dismantlyed or not, here are the methods that people started adopting. I wish they get some INSAS rifles as they are being replaced in IA

Delhi women gun for licences

Since December 18, the day the news of the brutal gang rape appeared in newspapers, the licensing department of Delhi Police has received a total of 274 applications from women. In addition, it has also been flooded with hundreds of queries on how to obtain a licence.

"We have received over 1,200 calls since that day. These include not only the average working woman, but even students who travel long distances to colleges and even their concerned parents. They were eager to find out more on the procedure to acquire arms," said a Delhi police officer.

In general, 20-22% of all applicants are now women. Since the past two weeks, the percentage has shot up to around 35%. The officer said 27 licences were issued to women in 2010. Of these, 17 applied under the inheritance clause. Till July this year, five women were granted licences for personal threats. In 2010 and 2011, over 600 applications were rejected as no "personal safety threat was assessed".

This where the agitation should fight. To get assault rifles for women on a fast track. My family's entire next generation is 90% female and that means I can see a lot of rifles at home.

[Gus]

I think the first steps should be to fix, the police, laws, the politicians.

Fixing the police starts with De-politicising them. Unfortunately no politician wants to do that. We probably need some sort of a higher law that makes them free to follow their charter. Or accountability to the people they serve, like elected police chiefs and hopefully enough safeguards to prevent bad policemen getting elected to top job.

[Gus]

Prasad - thanks for that Charanya's post. That is more or less, the typical experience of a person approaching police station (if you are not backed up with influence).

[Theo_Fidel]

Gus,

You are sounding suspiciously like Rahul Mehta.

[Gus]

he is ahead of his time. that's all I can say in this thread.

quote from daddysan's post by Prasad

Men, who ironically feel a greater sense of entitlement by being the “protectors” of their women.

That's a very astute observation by the lady.

I’m angrier when I read men lamenting about what ails us. Here’s a reality check: if you’re a man, you don’t know what the ****** you’re talking about. You have NO IDEA what it’s like to live a life that doesn’t belong to you. I understand your sympathy but have no use for it.

well said.

[SaiK]

I think we are getting lost into specifics from abstraction. Fixing the system is quite abstract about the problem at hand, and how police force should be established, what system of employment be made, quota to merit, et al are aspects of the systemic corrections that needs to be done. Of course, these details needs to be discussed.. But primarily, and fundamentally, do we all agree that our police needs revamp structural and culturally? It starts from police, and after that we need to really focus on Politicians. Politicians can't have quotas.. they must be purely chosen on merits.. and they need to retire too (max public servant retirement age - It is more evil to keep them than to pay them pension).

[ramana]

Theo, Nothing stops you from psoting your views in one cogent piece. So far I see snippets of ideas here and there.

[JwalaMukhi]

Will help next time when one goes to the polling booth. Netas in control...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A_RDdPXCEAAC8mP.jpg

[SaiK]

The age itself should tell a big story to voters. If we can educate the voters, then it is easy to replace these buddas. else:

Policy: All Politicians must retire, and perhaps get pension
Rule: No politician can contest elections above 60 years of age.

All politicians retire per gov retirement age. All of them get paid per fixed salary, and work towards their pension, against serving the nation for minimum of 15 years.

People review their job done, and re-vote them back within age limits. Simple to suggest, but hard to implement. It is not the politicians who is deciding here, but the people.

People want some thing like this extreme to happen (ganga-rape+muder) in this case to get out their gullible shell. Basically, our political system is not based on sound principles. PERIOD.

Everything needs to be relooked.

[Anantha]

Yogendra,

What facts, other than some middle aged male pontificating about how India is soo-pee-rear and hence is all perfect already.

This sort of thinking is endemic to India. The vast majority of males think this way.

Yet here we are, in the how to make India safe for women thread.

The factual rebutal against the incessant breast beating that gangrapes happens only in India? It was the first point.

As much as I am disgusted with the current happening, West has a lot of gang rapes and other violence on women. Even as the girl died on 29th, there was a gang rape in a moving vehicle in.... Philadelphia. The mainstream US media refused to cover this.

[ramana]

Anantha, How is that a consolation and how does it help the anguish of Indians?

[Arjun]

What matters, is whether redress is available to women if it does occur, and how safe do women "feel" wherever they are. That is the whole point. Redress acts as a deterrent.

Good point... We should also apply some of the same yardsticks within the country - which cities do women "feel" safer in, and what might be some underlying reasons for the variation ?

The West would probably stand out on this parameter: Gujarat & maybe MH? The South may have been high at one point, but based on the "feelings" one sees of women in media from that region, it looks to be just as bad as the North.

[yogendra]

When it comes to outraging a women's modesty (non rape attacks like groping, passing lewd comments etc) the solutions that need to be thought about are societal. Doesn't mean we tear down the current structure and replace them with brand new ones.

I had pointed that post about the subjucation capital to my wife and she was one of the first few to comment there. We had a lengthy discussion on various solutions. Oneof them was legalizing prostitution for the short term, say ten years, so that a lot of that repressed sexual energies of the Indian male can have a sink while the society catches up and becomes more open. She was against that. When i asked her why, she was initially uneasy but on further probing stated that she felt that it would lead to decrease in faithfulness of married men.

Let me make it clear that it is not just a womens sexuality that is controlled by the current system, it is also the mens albeit to a lesser extent. Women have had to carry a far greater share of that burden than men without a doubt. You will see that the greatest opponents to legalizing prostitution would come from women and especially married women. And not just from poor/rural/uneducated households, but from more emancipated women. Their answer may very well be that for centuries they have had to bear the burden, why is it wrong if for the next 10-20 years men bear it with stricter policing.

In the longer term what Harbanji states is the inevitable approach. I feel making most schools co-education and promoting earlier interaction between the sexes outside the house should be an unstated goal of our system. That is not going to reduce rapes of this kind. (consistent and speedy application of the law is the only thing that can alleviate the problem.)

Promoting early marriages is again in my view an unbalanced solution as under the current setup (western or indic) a marriage and more specifically pregnancy bogs down a women and holds her back from her career. Only when we have a system that actually recognises the importance of the first 2 pregnancies to the society by according special privileges - like a longer maternity leave to deliver and raise a child, and a legally mandated program from workplace/college to re-orient all returning mother and fast track any applicable time based promotions/responsibilities/payhikes/classes - can encouraging early marriage as a solution even be thought off. Even then i feel the costs of maintaining the system would end up dispropotionately borne by women.

[Comer]

Wading into the murky waters of West vs India on safety of women, there is a whole spectrum of harassment of women ranging from catcalls to rape. It seems that incidence of rapes, which is on one end of the spectrum, are high in the West(US), the daily harassment is on the lower scale. In India, it the daily harassment which is a constant bane.
On the other hand, does an individual woman in the West, as part of daily life, have to interact with strangers as much as women in India do? Apart from big metropolis, US doesn't have much public transport. And most of the sexual harassment happens in public transport in India, going by anecdotes. Do women walk as much in the late night in US for commute as they have to do in India? Safe neighbourhoods is a well defined concept in US rather than the mishmash of zones we have in India. I doubt an Indian woman would feel safe walking around South Central LA at anytime of the day. Wearing shorts in public is a question of conditioning of the public rather than feeling safe.

[yogendra]

Ramanaji
The reason why I feel we have to look around while trying to form solutions is that this incident has colored our perspectives on women safety.

While we can have a discussion for strenthening laws to prevent rapes and we may even succeed to a greater extent in implementation, that does not guarantee the freedom of a women.

There are 2 problems here
a) Rape and other brutal physical acts against women which needs to be tackled by by better policing and implementation of better laws.
b) Guranteeing the freedom from not being groped, not being passed comments at, not being killed by family for daring to make a choice and not have their dignity shattered day in and day out in public spaces. I am not talking about guarateeing the safety of the women alone. It is about guaranteeing the freedom to the women folks that men take for granted.

If there are protest all across India, it is because of the second reason which has been kept boiling internally. This incident was a catalyst. And that catalyst has been so strong that our discussions are biased from that perspective./ And that is why the opinion that this particular incident is unique to India needs to be broken down and needs to be shown that brutality of such kind exists every where. Because it deviates from what is uniquely and consistently wrong in India.

Sometimes a stronger and separate law can set the right tone for the country. Inspite or because of the anti dowrt law being misused initially, there now has been vast change in how the bride's family is viewed and treated even in conservative marwaari communities.

The question is would a stronger rape law with higher convictions set the right tone for the country as a whole such that women feel empowered enough to stop the second evil. Or do we also have to work on that aspect separately by trying to socially engineer the Indian society (based on a western or an indic model comes next)

[Arjun]

Wading into the murky waters of West vs India on safety of women, there is a whole spectrum of harassment of women ranging from catcalls to rape. It seems that incidence of rapes, which is on one end of the spectrum, are high in the West(US), the daily harassment is on the lower scale. In India, it the daily harassment which is a constant bane.
On the other hand, does an individual woman in the West, as part of daily life, have to interact with strangers as much as women in India do? Apart from big metropolis, US doesn't have much public transport. And most of the sexual harassment happens in public transport in India, going by anecdotes. Do women walk as much in the late night in US for commute as they have to do in India? Safe neighbourhoods is a well defined concept in US rather than the mishmash of zones we have in India. I doubt an Indian woman would feel safe walking around South Central LA at anytime of the day. Wearing shorts in public is a question of conditioning of the public rather than feeling safe.

Good post, Saravana ji.

I would tend to agree with the assessment that daily harassment is probably much higher in India, but the actual incidence of rape is probably signficantly lower than in the West.

This is in line with what one would find in every other walk of life....If you work for an Indian firm for example, you would find the day-to-day experience far more draining than say working for a US firm. However, when it comes to handing out pink slips it is the US firm which is the one far more likely to pull the trigger than the Indian one.

I think Harbans ji had posted sometime back a hypothesis - that crimes against women of higher severity is proportional to, or a fixed percentage of, crimes against women of lower severity...I am not sure if that hypothesis holds in its entirety in the case of India.

[vera_k]

What options are available for freeing police from political control? The term "police reforms" is mentioned in this context, but how would it differ from how things stand today?

[eklavya]

What options are available for freeing police from political control? The term "police reforms" is mentioned in this context, but how would it differ from how things stand today?

Control over postings and promotions should be taken out of the hand of the elected officials.

Make appointment of the 12 senior-most officers in any state subject to decision by a State Police Commission. SPC should be comprised of retired Supreme Court / High Court judges, retired IAS officers, retired Armed Forces officers, leading businessmen, leading academics, etc.

SPC to also investigate complaints against the top 12 policemen in the state.

All decisions of the SPC should be posted on the internet.

Below the top 12, make the police chiefs (i.e. the top 12) responsible for all promotions and postings below them.

Recruit policemen preferentially from among retired jawaans of the Indian Army.

Mandatory quota of 25% of women at all levels of the police force.

So much work has been done on "corporate governance", "organisational behaviour", etc. Institute a commission made up of IIM professors, senior mandarins, etc to come up with a blue print.

[Advait]

eklavya, so what you are saying is that we should have another committee, run by self-appointed community leaders and NGOs, and women quota (aurat hi aurat ka dard samjti hai attitude).

How will that system be any better.

Having elected sheriffs/police chief every year will be more direct and democratic = more efficient and honest

[member_20317]

vera_K ji, the Police reforms would matter a lot, IMO. And so does Judicial reforms.

Our police is presently geared to a mob control and information extraction role. At ops front we need an investigative role that needs to be addressed. There was a Judge (I think an SC judge) on a TV channel who voiced this need. Media recently has claimed an year on year conviction rate of around 20% but due to low reportage I believe we need to trust it at somewhere around 2%-5%. These convictions are of criminals that are basically entirely careless in covering their tracks. If you have even a slightly smarter one then he is able to exploit the system to his advantage. Even the CID type set ups are not very helpful and we should take a cue from Firangs in this respect. Truth serum and Lie detectors are actually treated as science in Indian policing. There is no database of guns, tyres, fibers, paints and such like that we see iin the west. Some of our members would never ever highlight this. The specialization in my view should start from the FIR stage itself. Victim goes straight to the speciallised investigative set-up. There is a beat constable going around in urban areas and semi-urbans. This ideas should be used to nip the problem of small time criminals in the bud. Give some good treatment to a molester and you stand a better chance of deterring him from turning into a rapist. Right now the beat constables are hafta wasooli guys. So it could help to have a database of molesters also available with such a centrallised and statutory investigative agency independent of political office in Delhi. Right now Policing is a state subject and hence used in political matters and given to under-reporting or mis-reporting but the Criminal justice system rightly treats the crimes as an 'offence against the State/People in general' but without the benefit of a proper investigative set up to back up such prosecution cases. And the cost is going to be minimal.

The adminstrative policies for the general policing also need to change. Mis-reporting of incidents of communal nature is also rampant inspired by an 'secular' political set up. A couple of years back there was a case of 4 Muslim nawabzaade moving around in a Merc in Gujarat raping girls from the Hindu community. This was reported as a regular rape spree when in fact it is a communal targeting. This kind of mis-reporting happens because the general police infrastructure is now entirely compromised by threats of transfers/suspensions and other intra-departmental bribing. The police is so bloody politicised that just a few years back a case of policemen harrasing their own collegue came to light in Delhi because and if I remember correctly his wife got raped or perhaps ran away with somebody or some such other cause that should normally have gotten the policemen to cooperate with one of their own. Advait ji has suggested elected sherrifs. Perhaps that too can be used. But the involvement level is very low in India with a large floating population in cities which are actually the seeding and breeding grounds of criminal tendencies.

The legal system as such needs more judges and support staff. The judge I spoke of earlier also mentioned this. A lot of people do not know that courts work on 6 day basis below HC level and the environment is not conducive to honest working. This itself needs to change. For the rape cases the line of questioning is held up as oppressive but that cannot change in a situation where the Jurisprudence is take lock stock and barrel from the western world unless as chanaakya ji suggests we relax our understanding of the rights of the innocent. I personally would not agree to it. Then the system of bails may have issues too. I do not know much on that, but ideally if we can have a system where the cases are fast tracked and well investigated the whole thing is do-able in very few days. A faster judicial disposal working in tandem with a faster and scientific investigation mechanism will go a long way in curtailing the 'Misc. applications' that serve mostly to dilate the proceedings.

But all this cannot happen because the vote gathering requires a compromised system. Which is where the role of Kongis in the present state of affairs comes in.

You may or may not remember but Advani ji did drop something along the lines of capital punishment for rapes in 2002 when he and his accolytes could have gotten something passed in parliament in double quick time. That was the time our so called civil society should have taken a cue and enlarged the debate to all such matters but they choose to be 'oh so modern/secular/WTH'. The lesser educated are guilty of not knowing that the sun has risen. The better educated are guilty of burying their collective heads deeper in the Razai - Kambal to avoid the morning sun.

[eklavya]

Advait,

What I am asking for is the "independent regulator" model. The "police regulator" and the police itself needs to be independent of "day-to-day" political control.

Democratic legitimacy can come from the State Legislature having to confirm the appointment of SPC members.

There will also need to be an Appointments Committee for the SPC. The Appointments Committee can be a constitutional body consisting of serving judges from various courts, serving Chief Secretaries chosen at random from a hat, etc.

Women have historically suffered discrimination at the hand of society and positive discrimination in favour of women is required to redress the imbalance. For the SC/ST and OBC reserved categories, representation of women should in fact be 50% as SC/ST/OBC women are the most discriminated against in our society.

Having elected police chiefs in India will be a disaster. Absolutely all professionalism will disappear from the police force. The election of the police chief will be like any MLA or MP election, with all the money power and muscle power involved. No honest man will ever become police chief. The police chief will be the person supported by Congress or BJP or BSP or SP or Shiv Sena or such like.

Elected officials in India already have way too much unaccountable power. IAS and IPS were much better at serving the public when the elected officials did not control postings and promotions.

[darshhan]

Wading into the murky waters of West vs India on safety of women, there is a whole spectrum of harassment of women ranging from catcalls to rape. It seems that incidence of rapes, which is on one end of the spectrum, are high in the West(US), the daily harassment is on the lower scale. In India, it the daily harassment which is a constant bane.

That is my observation too. Incidence of rape and other violent crimes are much higher in US. It is the daily harrassment(ogling/groping/commenting) where India ranks high.

I think this is due to the mindset of Indians(females too). While due to certain factors a woman's value in society has greatly diminished, Indian males would usually avoid usage of rape and violence against women to the extent that Americans or South Africans do. This has more to do with the ingrained pacifism in Indians rather than moral uprightness.

Events like this Gangrape outrage us simply because we are not used to such kind of violence. In countries like US or Mexico no one would have even batted an eyelid.Gangrape, murder, mutilation etc is very common in US. It would have been just another criminal case.

Even feminists in US do not seem much concerned about rapes and violence against women from a moral point of view. It is almost like they have actually accepted threat of rape and violence as an inseperable part of women's life.

[darshhan]

A couple of years back there was a case of 4 Muslim nawabzaade moving around in a Merc in Gujarat raping girls from the Hindu community. This was reported as a regular rape spree when in fact it is a communal targeting.

There is one difference between a rapist who has a kaffir name and a rapist who is a follower of islam. The former types are equal opportunity types who will attack any women. Whereas the later types will only target the kaffir women. This is all a part of Jihad.

[Prasad]

Even feminists in US do not seem much concerned about rapes and violence against women from a moral point of view. It is almost like they have actually accepted threat of rape and violence as an inseperable part of women's life.

Eh what?