Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

[brihaspati]

ah ekalavya ji,
are you claiming that taste in art or architecture has to be determined by majority voting, and once voted, like parliamentary representatives of heads of state - they have to be universally admired or followed or agreed to?

As I pointed out - this cult of Taj admiration seems to be rather a recent phenomenon, and neither the Brits nor Indians seem to have given it much "appreciation" even as late as middle of the nineteenth century. You do have a habit of pointedly ignoring counter-factoids! so you are saying that the Brits of 19th century - with someone representing the highest of the high of Britistan in India as Bentinck - did not follow the "universal" appreciation cult? Or the Jats were not Indians?

Are you disputing - that this appreciation is not much referred to in Indian texts, until the late 19th century - and started off only after Victorian imperialism had decided to play off the Anglo-Islamic card for India?

[brihaspati]

By the way, are we not cleverly shifting the discussion from connections to Indo-UK to "what! you dare to disagree with UNESCO art appreciation laws"?

[Agnimitra]

Note, its not just the context of India itself, but the fact that between the Hagia Sophia in Ottoman Turkey and the Taj Mahal in India they couldn't find anything else to "wonder" at and hype up. As if Persia didn't exist in between these two.

Its another matter that in Turkey you have the Sultan Ahmed 'Blue Mosque' which is as beautiful, and the Topkapi palace, etc. They had to choose a christian cathedral conquered and converted into a mosque. India has such a plethora of architectural styles, but they had to pick an extremely Persian Moslem mausoleum. But they leaped clean from Hagia sophia to the Taj Mahal, and that's the giveaway - right over the Persian Empire which was being buffeted by the Russians in the north-west and British India in the south-east.

Because the Anglo-Saxons have a flair for not just understatement, but the unstated. Its like the "axis of evil". It starts in Iraq, then Iran, and then jumps over a 9.5 million sq.mi. country called China and pegs the next node of the axis in North Korea.

Those who "unwittingly or willingly" peddle such stuff - their innocence is charming, even as they hector others on how to be broad minded and appreciate cultures other than your own.

[JE Menon]

Get back to topic. Eklavya, responsible selection of topics to discuss on this thread please. Take the issue to some other suitable thread if you wish.

[Agnimitra]

'We're happy to help MI5 – but coercing us to spy is unacceptable': British Somalis say intelligence agents asking for too much

For many of Britain's estimated 400,000 Somalis, such experiences are depressingly familiar and there is growing anger about how they are treated at Britain's ports. Top of their list of complaints is the allegation that pressure is being put on young Somali men in particular to spy on their own community.

[...]

The Independent first revealed concerns about such tactics being used by the security services in 2009, when five east African Muslim men said they were harangued by MI5 officers who wanted them to work as informants, and were threatened with sanctions if they refused to co-operate. Three of the five were approached after returning from family holidays. One of the men, Mahdi Hashi, had his citizenship revoked late last year by the Home Office and was suddenly rendered from a jail in Djibouti to the United States – an incident which has caused consternation among many British Somalis.

[...]

The cultivation of sources is key for national security, and many Somalis work with MI5 and MI6 to combat militant groups such a al-Shabaab. But there are fears that stories of coercion are starting to backfire on the intelligence-gathering community.

[...]

The security services do not usually comment on intelligence matters and declined to respond to The Independent last night, but MI5 has previously denied on its website that Muslims are harassed by its officers.

[RajeshA]

'We're happy to help MI5 – but coercing us to spy is unacceptable': British Somalis say intelligence agents asking for too much

For many of Britain's estimated 400,000 Somalis, such experiences are depressingly familiar and there is growing anger about how they are treated at Britain's ports. Top of their list of complaints is the allegation that pressure is being put on young Somali men in particular to spy on their own community.

[...]

The Independent first revealed concerns about such tactics being used by the security services in 2009, when five east African Muslim men said they were harangued by MI5 officers who wanted them to work as informants, and were threatened with sanctions if they refused to co-operate. Three of the five were approached after returning from family holidays. One of the men, Mahdi Hashi, had his citizenship revoked late last year by the Home Office and was suddenly rendered from a jail in Djibouti to the United States – an incident which has caused consternation among many British Somalis.

[...]

The cultivation of sources is key for national security, and many Somalis work with MI5 and MI6 to combat militant groups such a al-Shabaab. But there are fears that stories of coercion are starting to backfire on the intelligence-gathering community.

[...]

The security services do not usually comment on intelligence matters and declined to respond to The Independent last night, but MI5 has previously denied on its website that Muslims are harassed by its officers.

Just asking around, is this revocation of citizenship possible according to laws and international treaties? I haven't run across this earlier, except say if the citizenship was acquired through dubious means or by providing false information to acquire it. However if that is not the case, can it still be done?

[RamaY]

RajeshA ji,

If plea bargains, witness protections, GC for joing army and political asylum are legal then this too should be legal, right?

[Lisa]

RajeshA ji,

If plea bargains, witness protections, GC for joing army and political asylum are legal then this too should be legal, right?

What does GC stand for?

[Mahendra]

Green Card

[Lisa]

RajeshA ji,

If plea bargains, witness protections, GC for joing army and political asylum are legal then this too should be legal, right?

If above post is true, you may be thinking of the wrong country.

You cannot plea bargain in the UK,

You cannot apply for a change of passport based on joining the army,

You cannot apply for Nationality because you have been granted asylum

and lastly, passport is a privilege not a right.

[Anantha]

Indo-Islamic/Indo Sarcenic is all unadulterated BS floated by colonial westerners.

One look at the Tanjore temple built in 1010 CE will tell you that the basic design of a Taj type structure (whether built by Shahjahan or not,) was existent half a millenium before Taj was claimed to have been built.
For an architectural analysis of Tanjore periya Kovil refer to a book called "Tanjore Brahadishvara temple.. An architectural study" by Pierre Pichard.

[brihaspati]

RajeshA ji,
its correct that for UK - passport is a "privilege" and not a "right", citizenship is not automatic on asylum, etc. The fact of the matter is that the Anglo-Saxon and especially the old colonial sadists in European national polity - have always been paranoid of every possible loophole in their own walls that they had used against other nations in their looting raping missions.

If you apply the underlying criteria/principle now applied by the Brit government to allow immigration or naturalization, and tick it off against when they came to India:
(a) did they have enough "means" to support themselves in India? Nada - they started thieving early enough
(b) did they have enough proof of wealth back at "home"? Nada - most were of very very humble origin.
(c) did they have any intention of subverting the laws, and society of their hosts? Very very much - right from the beginning.
(d) did they intend to conspire against the state and plan to overthrow it? Yes, very very much!

Do they have reasons to be paranoid of even "skilled professionals"? By their own experience and strategy on Indians - even early "doctors" and "missionaries" and "genuine traders/merchants" were only the harbingers of attampts to overthrow the existing political regime, state, loot and rape and massacre.

They model the rest of the world by their own mentality, and see in everyone the ghost of their own infernal past. Especially what they did deceptively at first to gain toeholds in countries more prosperous than theirs at that time.

[sanjaykumar]

It is curious that some find Iran has monuments to rival the Taj. I have heard the same said of Central Asian mosques, especially Kazakh.

I can't imagine anyone forming such an opinion, not someone who has visited the Taj. Yes the architects and some stone masons may have been influenced by Persian court culture, but to mistake it for a Persian structure does not do justice to the Indian ( yes Indian) genius. It may be that a one off structure could be equivocal in its testament, but damn, Shah Jehan pulled off another masterpiece in the Moti Masjid in the Lal Qila.

In comparison, the Blue Mosque is merely pretty. The Istanbul structure does have a majesty on the inside, but perhaps somewhat utilitarian as a whole. Further, the contemporaneous Christopher Wren's St Paul's cathedral seems almost grotesque in its proprtions and execution.

[Agnimitra]

It is curious that some find Iran has monuments to rival the Taj.

Esfahan, Kashan, Shiraz, etc., all have their beautiful architecture in addition to Samarqand, Bokhara, Herat, etc. But I do agree with you that the Taj Mahal and other Indo-Islamic architecture beats them even while borrowing from their style!

[RajeshA]

Lisa ji, brihaspati garu,

I can understand they declare passport to be a "privilege" not a right, especially for asylum seekers. My query was something different. It was about revoking citizenship. How is it if somebody is a second generation immigrant? Can they cancel the citizenship of any British citizen?

[shyamd]

'We're happy to help MI5 – but coercing us to spy is unacceptable': British Somalis say intelligence agents asking for too much

For many of Britain's estimated 400,000 Somalis, such experiences are depressingly familiar and there is growing anger about how they are treated at Britain's ports. Top of their list of complaints is the allegation that pressure is being put on young Somali men in particular to spy on their own community.

[...]

The Independent first revealed concerns about such tactics being used by the security services in 2009, when five east African Muslim men said they were harangued by MI5 officers who wanted them to work as informants, and were threatened with sanctions if they refused to co-operate. Three of the five were approached after returning from family holidays. One of the men, Mahdi Hashi, had his citizenship revoked late last year by the Home Office and was suddenly rendered from a jail in Djibouti to the United States – an incident which has caused consternation among many British Somalis.

[...]

The cultivation of sources is key for national security, and many Somalis work with MI5 and MI6 to combat militant groups such a al-Shabaab. But there are fears that stories of coercion are starting to backfire on the intelligence-gathering community.

[...]

The security services do not usually comment on intelligence matters and declined to respond to The Independent last night, but MI5 has previously denied on its website that Muslims are harassed by its officers.

This is very common now. MI5 are really directionless at the moment on how to deal with the terror threat.

[Haresh]

Why does the West refuse to act over the Kashmir stand-off?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... q-comments

[RajeshA]

This is very common now. MI5 are really directionless at the moment on how to deal with the terror threat.

They should think of doing mass deportation, including of their Islamist citizens, even second, third generation ones. But they will not do it, simply because the Queen, the Anglican Church, the political leadership of Britain are now all closet Muslims.

[IndraD]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 997317.cms

India denies visa to British journalist

[shyamd]

They should think of doing mass deportation, including of their Islamist citizens, even second, third generation ones. But they will not do it, simply because the Queen, the Anglican Church, the political leadership of Britain are now all closet Muslims.

Not really the situation here. you know people think here that they are only giving show time to the islamists and not the work that muslims here are doing to stamp the extremists out. They think there is a conspiracy that the extremists are being given show time on TV and they want people to think that muslims are all extremists.

[brihaspati]

Onlee islamists themselves and their friends and whitewashers from outside their community who will subscribe to the idea that its all a conspiracy to paint Islam/Islamist as extremist.

The reality can be checked easily enough - by the numerous groups, youth activists who have mushroomed - sometime with community, Saudi or even governmental/NGO style funding - who carry on essentially Islamist propaganda. Who never cease to criticize the "ills" of contemporary British society as due to lack of sharia, the need for enforcing sharia [of course several prominent "white British" (a valid gov recognized identity category) thinkers are quite soft on the prospect of sharia], the eventual inevitability of conversion of all into Islam etc.

Most of them take up staunch positions in favour each and every perceived Muslim dominated insurgencies all over the world. Undercover investigations by the media never fail to uncover covert Islamist hate propaganda by the ulema and maulavis and maulanas and sheikhs - all pretending "peace" and "Islam is peaceful", "extremism is a propaganda by enemies of Islam etc., outside for the consumption of the general public.

British ruling circles are too tied up or bought up into the Sunni sector of the Gulf finances to object. Especially with Saudis, Bahrainis and Quawaitis.

Any country or nation that laps up to the three, will be unable to prevent growth of Islam and Islamist structures within their own societies. Until the time point that Islamist leadership thinks that they rae not yet demographically strong enough physically and militarily overwhelm their host society - they pretend peace outside, and jihad is taught through history, precedence and example and "merely part of holy texts" within their own educational and dissemination networks. This is what is being followed through in UK. Eventually, the land will follow through exactly as how the frontier states of India were occupied by Islam.

At first there is pretension of peaceful coexistence, just a minority seeking to worship in their own way, harping on the "liberality" of their hosts to insist on being different and separate - and backing it all up through promise of trade, and financial benefits. Then the next step is to ensnare the ruling elite or parts of them, through financial linkages as well as political factional inputs. Once the elite is sufficiently compromised, use the paralysis of the state resulting from elite compromise, to expand the organizational structure and prepare for greater militancy - all the while assuring the compromised elite that they will be protected and empowered if they continued to cooperate.

Once sufficient military power has been obtained, overthrow the remnant elite and take power for Islam itself. They recognize that it is crucial to eliminate the intellect of the previous society, destroy as much as possible of any cultural icons that reminds of a pre-Islamic past, and destroy the educational apparatus of the society - to unleash the bearded mullahs in a Arabo-forming enterprise.

UK has gone beyond the immune stage.

[brihaspati]

RajesA ji,
by an amendment of the immigration Act in 2006 - yes, the UK Home office can revoke UK citizenship. It is however not yet very clear for the legal side as to how this applies to all the various "types" of citizenship allowed in UK. Most European countries have graded "types" of citizenship - literally implying 1st class, 2nd class, or tiered hierarchy of citizens. So it is still not clear if the revocation applies equally to citizenship by "descent" and "naturalization". Several cases are pending.

[Vayutuvan]

One look at the Tanjore temple built in 1010 CE will tell you that the basic design of a Taj type structure (whether built by Shahjahan or not,) was existent half a millenium before Taj was claimed to have been built.

I have visited neither but going by the photos but in no way they look alike - at least the facades. Are they comparing internal spaces and floor layouts?

[brihaspati]

There is a long dispute in historical architectural innovation - regarding the hemispherical [and other mathematically defined curve profiles] dome. The hemispherical dome structure appeared almost simultaneously in Buddhist and Persian strata. They also had geographical and political overlap - so its hard to say who taught it to whom.

The latter day popularity of Islamic "domes" can be traced back to their secret admiration of Byzantine-Roman domes [in Rome and Hagia Sophia] and Persian remnants of Buddhist architecture. But we should be honest enough to recognize that by the time Persians still retained a taste for the dome - Indians had left it behind, with teh decline of Buddhism. The Chola temples were not curved-spherical domed, neither do surviving literature describe such styles in the north.

The very "dome" structure, with "minarets" - is more Romano-Persian, and the garden layout is based on Quranic-Biblical genesis narratives. The symbolism of "water" is different - from a "Hindu/Indian" represnetation, say as in Ankor Vat.

The branding of the Taj as "Indo-Saracenic", somehow retaining its non-Indian flavour with a base of "indian" is typically illustrative of the imperialist British ideological propaganda of representing and India, convenient for their image.

If one has to retain both "Indo" with "Saracenic" - it implies a conscious recognition that Indo- and Saracenic do not gel together to form a new homogeneous whole. If you can still trace the distinctions, surely the structure is not a proper meld.

The Taj as Indic or "Saracenic" belongs to a different thread - and is not relevant for this thread. If we still insist on expressing our admiration for it on this thread, we should be able to understand or trace, why we admire it. Are we sure we admire it for some intrinsic beauty, or because it has been touted in put texts from childhood as a symbol of undying grief for the beloved wife- which was not the reality, since the grief-stricken had many other wives, and marriages even after grief, and archeology now reveals that the complex was much concerned with generating economic income rather than pure "grief"?

Making a propaganda about "Taj" - was a subtle but self-explanatory line by the Victorian imperialists. The Brits were casting themselves as the successors of the Mughals - who wanted to retain their extra-Indian identity as a colonizing force that wanted to retain superiority over native society - but spin it as beneficial, "enriching" for India - something that must be gracefully accepted by the Indians loyally bootlicking the foreign marauder and rapist.

The reason - is stated clearly many times - the British hatred for the "pagan" Hindu temples, their "erotic" reliefs, Hindu-architecture as decadent compared to Islamic "purity" of form, and their deliberate Christian fundamentalism sourced suppression of Hindu temple reliefs and sculptures [they plastered over many] - in which they had to deny the Hindu architecture any place in the public imagination. This was how they sought to erase the Khajuraho and Chola temples from public appreciation space - nationally and more importantly globally.

People who fail to see the British imperialist construction of the image of "Taj" as authetic represnetation of India are serving British imperialist purposes - long after their formal rule is over.

[sanjaykumar]

I don't about Romano-Byzantine or Persian-Buddhist curved structures but the true dome was unknown in pre-Islamic architecture.

It may be that admiration of the Taj is an example of a British social engineering. Aesthetic neglect of Hindu temples is probably because most of them are squat, ponderous and ungainly. Uncomely, much like the pagoda further east.

[eklavya]

^^^^
There are simply thousands upon thousands of Hindu temples that are outstandingly beautiful and recognised as such universally. One of my favourites is the Sun Temple in Konarak (well worth a visit):

Sun Temple, Konarak
Majestic in conception, this temple is indeed one of the sublimest monuments of India, notable as much for its imposing dimensions and faultless proportions as for the harmonious integration of architectural grandeur with plastic elegance.

The point is there is not much use for any self-appointed ayatollahs and their fatwas who seek to examine our likes and dislikes for influences of cultural imperialism / impurities. In my experience what these paranoid worthies lack in common sense, they more than make up for in rancour, bad taste and an impoverished sense of humour. See it, like it, take a photo, end of story. Read it, like it, cherish it, end of story (even if the author was a long-dead Englishman / Englishwoman).

[brihaspati]

Sanjaykumar ji,
Why is the shape generated by a smooth curve so much more "preferable" and "less decadent" or "less ungainly" than their "squat", cuboid, or pyramidal structures? According to British justification as to why the "Taj" should be loved is because it is much more "pure", "the purity of geometric form" minus the voluptuous aspect of pagan religions.

Curves are more associated with a full-fledged adult female body. Hemispheres or globes connect more to the erogenous zones of the female form than the more basic geometric forms like cuboids or pyramids - in the public imagination.

It could also be an inversion - the more the female form is seen as source of evil, the strayer from the "true" path - the stricter the injunctions on the public and private behaviour of the female, the greater seems to be the obsession and surfacing of the repressed desires.

Note that the greatest influenza bout of Taj-appreciation coincided with and came from the intensification of Raj holier-than-thou proselytization during the second half of 19th century, and the most extensive period of Victorian prudery.

[ashish raval]

+1
http://www.jainuniversity.org/art-galle ... &pageno=10

[Agnimitra]

They should think of doing mass deportation, including of their Islamist citizens, even second, third generation ones. But they will not do it, simply because the Queen, the Anglican Church, the political leadership of Britain are now all closet Muslims.

Not really the situation here. you know people think here that they are only giving show time to the islamists and not the work that muslims here are doing to stamp the extremists out. They think there is a conspiracy that the extremists are being given show time on TV and they want people to think that muslims are all extremists.

shyamd ji, I once came into contact with one such British Pakistani who was doing work "to stamp the extremists out". His name is Jahan Mahmood, from a RAPE background hailing from Peshawar. He also managed to become a "community historian" for British Moslems and such a position at a local university there was created for him (see one of his projects here - British Muslim Soldiers). He would work with "extremist" elements (which basically means the lumpen street thugs) and help them get back to school, stop being involved in criminal activities, etc. But make no mistake -- this guy himself was a hardcore Islamist. He was still loyal to the British Crown, but he was a hardcore Islamist. He would give even deeper tarbiyat to his lumpen wards and only enhance their profile to become more substantially involved in the British system. His "extremist" side could be seen from the networks he was involved in, from the kind of "community history" he wrote, from the nature of his "interfaith activism", and most of all from his obsession with "Hindu extremism" all the way in India. Therefore, I urge you not to naively drink this koolaid about "extremists" versus "moderates who help work against extremists". Its actually only an organizational churning (manthan) between the elites and the lumpens, and their mutual churning makes deeper space and inroads into British power structure.

[brihaspati]

Thomas Walker Arnold and the Re-Evaluation of Islam, 1864-1930 : Katherine Watt : Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Feb., 2002), pp. 1-98.

Similar ideas of Western superiority underlay general European disapprobation of nearly all oriental art and architecture, with the result that the artistic achievements of Islam remained a largely undeveloped field of European scholarship. Epigraphical research, which dated from the eighteenth century, acquired greater popularity from the publication of Stanley Lane Poole's pioneering catalogue of Islamic coins in the British Museum, published between 1875 and 1890o, and Islamic architecture attracted increasing interest from the 1870s onwards, funded by large-scale government exploration missions, but it was not until the turn of the century that Muslim art became a dynamic field of research."9 This chapter will discuss the factors contributing to new intellectual interest in Islamic artistic activity and Arnold's personal contribution to the expansion of the field.

The development of oriental themes by various European artistic movements provided the basis for a reappraisal of oriental art itself. The early nineteenth-century Romantics turned to the East to fulfill their emotional ideals and spiritual quests, producing visually arresting images of Arabian scenes in particular, and Islamic influences provided inspiration for the Art Nouveau and Arts and Crafts movement at the end of the century, acquiring commercial appeal in Libertys of London, Samuel Bing of Paris and Tiffany's of New York.90 Artistic and commercial receptivity, together with museum acquisitions of Islamic art works and artefacts, made Islamic art and design available at several different levels. In Britain, for example, the London museums housed various oriental collections, Liberty's Oriental Bazaar popularized Islamic-inspired objects and designs, and the 1885 Persian and Arabian art exhibition at the Burlington Fine Arts Club, established leader of artistic taste, effectively sanctioned the vogue for all things oriental.91

The roots of academic reassessment were two-fold, in both general Islamic scholarship and art historical studies. Kulturgeschichte generated interest in Islamic art and architecture as cultural products, greater sympathy for Islam enhanced the possibilities of artistic reappraisal, and as historical scholarship looked beyond textual sources for evidence, artistic analysis and archaeology became seen as valuable tools for documenting the past (see chapter I). Ernst Herzfeld, an historian of the Middle East, was the first orientalist scholar to systematically combine historical research methods with stylistic analysis.92 Artistic appreciation of Islamic motifs and designs led several art history scholars to reevaluate Islamic art and architecture on its own terms, by rejecting Western artistic conceptions as judgmental criteria and emphasizing historical factors affecting artistic developments. The former approach originated with Ernest Binfield Havell, whose attempt to discard 'the full equipment of European academic prejudices' in order to fully appreciate the achievements of Indian art contrasted sharply with prevailing contempt. Havell turned orthodox ideas on their head by asserting that Indian art had become stale only when 'the unimaginative Anglo-Saxon succeeded the imaginative Mogul in the sovereignty of India'.93 The latter development owed its professional acceptability to the work of Max van Berchem and Joseph von Karabacek, both pioneers in emphasizing art and archaeology's wider historical context.94 With such strong German academic interest in Islamic culture and art, Berlin became the centre of this new scholarly appraisal.95

British intellectual interest in Islamic art owed a particular debt to E. G. Browne's work in directing academic and political attention towards Persia and its history. His influential accounts presented a distinctive vision of Persian race and religion and resurrected art as evidence of spiritual creativity, and between 19o8 and 191o he campaigned in favour of a foreign policy to protect Persia's national integrity.9" Persia's prominence in the wider contemporary arena amplified art historical awareness, but political concerns probably influenced academic developments more directly in the 1920s, when Britain was anxious to maintain friendly relations with Reza Shah Pahlavi's constitutional government. For example, the Royal Academy's 1931 Exhibition of Persian Art both responded to and stimu- lated intellectual re-appraisals, but it was also an exercise in political propaganda to promote Anglo-Persian links.


Academic reassessment created the notion of a distinctively Islamic artistic tradition which united Muslim artistic schools and practitioners across historical and geographical boundaries. A number of factors were probably at work in this replacement of earl-ier regional and ethnic frameworks of analysis.97 Islamic
scholars retained their pan-Islamic perspective when branching out into the art history field, and conversely, art history specialists seeking to place Muslim arts in a wider context were willing to consider religious factors. The development of pan-Islamism may also have encouraged European researchers to focus on Islam as the chief influence on its followers' history. The concept of a peculiarly Islamic tradition is now a subject for criticism, partly because it encouraged research on the 'golden age' of Islamic culture at the expense of the developments after c.15oo, partly because it focused on Muslim iconoclasm.98 Considered within the Saidian paradigm, the subordination of geographical and historical differences to the unifying feature 'Islamic' merely reflected Western desires to essentialize 'the Orient'.99 Yet the notion of 'Islamic' art and architecture was at the time liberating, as it released artistic achievements from restrictive regional analyses, in which they were frequently considered evidence of decline. Furthermore, it paralleled non-European intellectual developments which emphasized religious and supra-national identities. New Indian swadeshi art was ideologically underpinned by a predominantly Hindu nationalist ideal and a sense of pan-Asian unity, while pan-Islamic ideas asserted a broader political and religious vision.'00

Arnold was key figure to promote "sympathetic" reappraisal of "islamic art" primarily based on his supposed study of Indian sourced Islamic art during his extensive stay at Aligarh. He was a close associate of the "Aligarh circle" around Sayeed Ahmed, Shibli, Iqbal etc.

Arnold continued to support Muslim self-identification in primarily religious terms. He explicitly argued at Aligarh that Muslims formed a single nation, despite internal differences, and should pursue 'a high national ideal'.403 Furthermore, he believed that only a sectarian institutional framework could protect Muslim nationality against becoming 'a Hindu sect'.404

[ramana]

Bji, Here is an article for you to critique.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/india ... /1058557/0

I would like to start a new thread:

Aesthetics and Colonial Othering from Islam and the West.

What do you think?

[brihaspati]

Architecture and the Representation of Empire: India, 1860-1910 Thomas R. Metcalf: Representations, No. 6 (Spring, 1984), pp. 37-65

British study of India's architecture at once reflected this colonial sociology and reinforced its hold. The "architecture indigenous to the soil" as Fergusson called it,that is,buildings erected in states with Hindu rulers,was labeled "Hindu," while the buildings of the Muslim dynasties that ruled between 1200 and 1800 A.D. were classed together as "Saracenic,"a term for Islam derived from the European encounter with the Arabs of the early conquests. All scholars,and especially Fergusson whose work was devoted to its elaboration, recognized that India's architecture comprised a number of different styles corresponding to various "ethnological" and political divisions among its people; Fergusson himself counted thirteen distinct "Saracenic" styles. Yet it was accepted as a matter of course that "the division of the whole of India into two great classes-Hindoo and Saracenic- was undoubtedly happy and true." The insistence on the centrality of a religious identity which took shape in fixed architectural styles, defined an India that was in effect an "Orientalist" construct: a timeless land of tradition- bound peoples for whom religion alone had meaning.'0

For the most part the British disdained the so-called "Hindu" style. Lord Napier, amateur student o architecture and Governor of Madras, in a speech in 1870 acknowledged that Hindu building "is imposing; it is even poetical... ; yet, regarded both from a scientific and an aesthetic point of view, it is manifestly defective." The ruling feature of this style, he argued, was "the horizontal line: the wall or the column supports a beam, the beam supports a flatroof. When the building is lofty, the fabric ascends by successive horizontal stages,one succeeding another in diminishing proportions to the apex." Though such a structure might rise with a "certain measure of continuity and elegance," with its method of construction "ingeniously concealed" by decoration, still the inherent "mechanical deficiencies" of the style could always be discerned.


Hence, Napier concluded, the Hindu style was "unavailable, under the present Government, for the purposes of the State,and ill-adapted for the common and public use of the collective people." It was alone suited to domestic building, where its principles of shade and seclusion fitted it ideally to social and climatic needs alike."

The arch and dome, the principal features of the "Saracenic" style, were by contrast, in Napier's view, the "most beautiful, the most scientific, and the most economical" ways of covering large spaces. Saracenic forms were in consequence, he argued, as suitable for modern buildings-railway stations, theatres, galleries, and lecture halls-as for the traditional employment in mosques and tombs; and he even urged the Government of India to adopt this as its official architectural style(Fig. 1).12 What made the Saracenic as a style so much more appealing? Part of the answer no doubt lies in its engineering, which managed stresses so as to avoid the "vast application of material in its most weighty and expensive form" that the horizontal style demanded. But most important surely was the association of the arch and dome with early Christendom,with the Roman and Byzantine empires, and with Renaissance notions of ideal beauty.Moreover,as the style associated with the Indian empire the British had themselves recently dispossessed, that of the Mughals, its use would enhance their own sense of power and majesty. Of the indigenous styles the Islamic was, simply, the most suited for the representation of empire.

Lord Napier himself inaugurated the new era by employing R.F Chisholm (1839 -1915), the Government Architect to design a building in the "Mussulman style" for the Madras Board of Revenue(Fig.2). With this design, Napier proudly proclaimed, Chisholm"has paid the first tribute to the genius of the past; he has set the first example of a revival in native art, which, I hope, will not remain unappreciated and unfruitful. Chisholm too saw his role as that of advocate for a new archiecture.He told the Madras UniversitySenate in 1869:

We have arrived at a most important period in the history of architecture in this country, and it will be decided in the course of the next five or ten years whether we are to have a style suited to the requirements of this country, or whether we are to be the mere copyists of every bubble which breaks on the surface of European art,and import our architecture, with our beer and our hats, by every mail-steamer which leaves the shores of England.'

Regarding why the dome is so "lovely" :

use of Byzantine styles in India especially for those types of buildings, such as Christian churches,where Europeans would feel uncomfortable in Saracenic surroundings. The two styles, he wrote,"have ever retained a certain family likeness, and the common possession of the dome constitutes a capital point of union." Besides, as the "most venerable" of Christian styles, Byzantine could never be "repugnant" in an ecclesiastical structure.15

And why onlee the Taj qualified to be appreciated:

at home there was always grumbling at the Indian Government's commitment to the strange and unfamiliar Indo-Saracenic. The Builder, though upset at Chisholm's unfair treatment in the Bombay municipal competition, never the less found it difficult to share his-and Fergusson's-enthusiasms. The editors wrote in a leading article:

You may learn to like anything if you try hard enough. Fergusson made Indian architecture his specialty, and managed to work himself up into an enthusiasm (not always communicated to his readers) even over things that are like the architecture of nightmare, without form, proportion, or logic.

Of Indian buildings only the Taj Mahal was "marked by a purity of line and balance of proportion which may really be called quite Greek.

[Vayutuvan]

Aesthetic neglect of Hindu temples is probably because most of them are squat, ponderous and ungainly. Uncomely, much like the pagoda further east.

I have to vehemently, but respectfully, disagree. One has to but to see the magnificence of gopurams of south Indian temples to appreciate the Indian temple architecture.

By the way, the only surviving original wonder of the world - the pyramids - have similar shape to any numbers of "gAli gOpuram"s one would find in S. India.

The shapes are dictated by the the shapes seen in nature by the respective civilizations, I suppose. In Indian subcontinent, one would see a lot of mountains which look triangular from afar (and also 2D simplices - the simplest polygon with area) but when one goes close one can would perceive the intricate interplay between crags, boulders, and flora. In deserts one would see sand dunes which are dome shaped. Moreover as one goes closer no more details come into view.

A direct question to sanjaykumar ji: What is your take on the architectural differences between Notre Dame and Sacré Cœur? I have some more thoughts but later.

[brihaspati]

ramana ji, not sure if I replied earlier (thought I did, but cannot see the post) - so yes, good for a thread!

[Vayutuvan]

No curves here

Old St. Pauls



The curved domes were imported by Wren from Arabia after the draw (or even an early Vietnam for UK) that was crusades recognizing that they were beaten and thus adopting the art of their superiors?

[ramana]

Folks, Please continue the architecture discussion in this thread...

Asthetics and Colonial Othering of India by Islam and the West

[Lisa]

'We're happy to help MI5 – but coercing us to spy is unacceptable': British Somalis say intelligence agents asking for too much

This is very common now. MI5 are really directionless at the moment on how to deal with the terror threat.

So that one could better undestand your opinion, kindly list MI5's failures, say for the last 10 years.

[shyamd]

shyamd ji, I once came into contact with one such British Pakistani who was doing work "to stamp the extremists out". His name is Jahan Mahmood, from a RAPE background hailing from Peshawar. He also managed to become a "community historian" for British Moslems and such a position at a local university there was created for him (see one of his projects here - British Muslim Soldiers). He would work with "extremist" elements (which basically means the lumpen street thugs) and help them get back to school, stop being involved in criminal activities, etc. But make no mistake -- this guy himself was a hardcore Islamist. He was still loyal to the British Crown, but he was a hardcore Islamist. He would give even deeper tarbiyat to his lumpen wards and only enhance their profile to become more substantially involved in the British system. His "extremist" side could be seen from the networks he was involved in, from the kind of "community history" he wrote, from the nature of his "interfaith activism", and most of all from his obsession with "Hindu extremism" all the way in India. Therefore, I urge you not to naively drink this koolaid about "extremists" versus "moderates who help work against extremists". Its actually only an organizational churning (manthan) between the elites and the lumpens, and their mutual churning makes deeper space and inroads into British power structure.

Didn't say that I bought everything that is said at all, but my point is to highlight how their community views. It varies from place to place in the UK . In the city where I live, there was a recently a BBC documentary into extremism here. The way it was phrased and ran - really pissed a lot of people of here. They didn't mention this Al Muhajiroun linked group here had been banned from all the mosques, its members banned, to the point where the local community filed reports with the police, they can only meet in their own houses. The govt decided to allow them to take a protest (with the usually virulently islamist placards - only 10 people turned up for the protest with police giving them security) out here on the streets - which pissed off people living here. Climax came when the group booked a hall in a community centre (outside their local area) for their annual meeting (lets ignore the fact that these people couldn't even hold their meetings in 2 or 3 mosques (6 or 7 in the city in total) and 2 community centres in the area) and the police arrested about 10 or 11 of them. But why were they even given permission to hold it in the community centre in the first place?

Then there was another incident where a somali and yemeni - brainwashed by the above group to fight for al shabaab - these 17 year olds left to kenya on his way to somalia. The father went to the police and a team of officers along with the boys fathers went to kenya and managed to track down his son in somalia and the boys were I think arrested and brought back to the UK. Of course, little press coverage of this - it did make it to BBC.

These incidents do back up that view

[shyamd]

So that one could better undestand your opinion, kindly list MI5's failures, say for the last 10 years.

Can't talk about it but they are randomly profiling. The ones that have been caught are the stupid ones - the ones who are boasting on internet forums, talking about it on the phone and all that. They lack understanding of islamism, the way they think and all that at the local level. There are some who are trying to provide some direction to it now. In some locations they are really desperate, so at airports they stop people and asking them to join informant networks (hence the outburst in the article).

[Agnimitra]

Didn't say that I bought everything that is said at all, but my point is to highlight how their community views. It varies from place to place in the UK . In the city where I live, there was a recently a BBC documentary into extremism here. The way it was phrased and ran - really pissed a lot of people of here. They didn't mention this Al Muhajiroun linked group here had been banned from all the mosques, its members banned, to the point where the local community filed reports with the police, they can only meet in their own houses. The govt decided to allow them to take a protest (with the usually virulently islamist placards - only 10 people turned up for the protest with police giving them security) out here on the streets - which pissed off people living here. Climax came when the group booked a hall in a community centre (outside their local area) for their annual meeting (lets ignore the fact that these people couldn't even hold their meetings in 2 or 3 mosques (6 or 7 in the city in total) and 2 community centres in the area) and the police arrested about 10 or 11 of them. But why were they even given permission to hold it in the community centre in the first place?

Then there was another incident where a somali and yemeni - brainwashed by the above group to fight for al shabaab - these 17 year olds left to kenya on his way to somalia. The father went to the police and a team of officers along with the boys fathers went to kenya and managed to track down his son in somalia and the boys were I think arrested and brought back to the UK. Of course, little press coverage of this - it did make it to BBC.

These incidents do back up that view

shyamd ji, I understand where you're coming from. Looking at such incidents from the outside will logically lead to your current PoV. But let me try to provide a view of the same dynamics from the inside.

1. Here in the US also there are hardcore Wahabi sections in any major Moslem settlement, along with the rest of them. By "hardcore Wahabbi" I mean the al-Mohajiroun types who rant and rave in public at kaafirs, and even at other regular Moslems. They themselves would never even go near a regular mosque, except to create a commotion - that's why they're debarred and usually have their own mosques. They accost others demanding to know their "minhaj", and they are in turn ostracized by others, though they do manage to spin the youngsters' minds with their propaganda questioning traditional fiqh, and the youngsters then go around asking for clarifications.

2. Then there are the less obnoxious but ideologically still Wahabi types, who base their doctrine on the likes of Ibn Taymiyyah. I've seen some of the brightest young Somali lads here take this line. They have the ability to rigorously argue against the "Sufi" and other traditions of their own community and the larger Islamic community. But they are allowed to mingle in any mosque and congregation, because they have impeccable manners. They are not ostracized. So the only difference between this section and the one above is 'adab' (etiquette).

3. Then there are the various other Deobandi, Barelvi, Gulenist, Naqshbandi and Shadhili 'Sufi' types in these mosque congregations. Here's the important thing: They don't consider the attitudes of the Wahabis to be wrong, they merely consider it out of place in the current time. In fact they believe it is even necessary for youngsters to go through a "Wahabi phase" in order to internalize certain things about the tradition. What they don't like is the bad publicity it brings when outsiders see the same thing, especially because of the politicized atmosphere about Islam these days.

A friend of mine is a convert and married to a Somali lady and has children from her. He takes a deep interest in the religion and community affairs, and is currently taking training to be an 'alim at a seminary, having given up his job. He often mentors young Somali boys. Often some of them get involved in terrorist plots right here in the US, while others want to go back and fight in Somalia. From time to time the FBI approaches him with questions on certain individuals in his community. He has to often struggle with himself about what to divulge and what not to. He wrestles with these moral questions. In the end, he asks himself: "What would damage the community more - not telling on them, allowing them to do something terroristic, and then the whole community may suffer a backlash? Or telling the FBI, which can then let the law take its own course?" Especially if the agents promise to treat them as juveniles according to certain laws, he will divulge. It goes without saying that he strongly feels that Moslems are being oppressed in the US and other parts of the world. Once when I mentioned the problems of Coptic Christians in Egypt, he brished it aside angrily, suggesting they were acting on America's instance to subvert the emergence of an Islamic Egypt. Etc.

What I'm pointing out is that it is not about "hardcore Islamists" versus "moderate Moslem citizens", but rather about management of certain intrinsic dynamics within the community that is settled in non-Moslem societies. It must first be seen in this proper perspective, before a real solution can be proposed.