Indian Interests

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2013 10:14

ShauryaT wrote:
Rudradev wrote:Gentlemen, let me just say here that I've known Shaurya personally for a number of years. And while I don't agree with certain of his opinions, I know for a fact that he has done more- in the real world- to inculcate a sense of dharmic identity among young people, and arm them against the forces of deracination, than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.
RD: Thanks for that personal vote. If we all have to agree with each other all the time, then what is the need for a discussion forum. Regardless of our differences, I have no doubt who's interests you speak for or I do. Indian interest is what keeps us going, the abuses from the clattering warriors notwithstanding. Many informed views have been shunned from the forum, precisely due to these clattering warriors. I can only hope that moderation will steer the forum towards inviting more diverse and informed views so that people who do have a view can share, without being hounded.

I know both of you in person so I am very curious about the references... So kindly indulge me.

Being senior, informed members it would be nice if you can spell who these clattering warriors are. Since we don't know who the real people behind these clattering handles are it may not be wise to judge them as no do-gooders. Who knows, they might me doing 1000 times more than what we have been doing on the ground for the same interests we all are working. (last year Shivji made a personal comment about me on this topic, hence I know what this is about)

And who are the worthies that got shunned from the forum? Why would they leave the forum especially when they are "informed" verity? What are they informed about by the way, the inner workings of C-system? If so, Then why the need for this forum as we have unditv which is more informed and integrated with the ruling 2-g disposition?

Are we missing something here?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 21 Jan 2013 10:19

ShauryaT garu,

The whole discussion started with this post. It has multiple pointers, to which I responded.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 4#p1395984

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 21 Jan 2013 21:44

Found an interesting cartoon:

Nehru 'balancing' two sides: Seculars(Jana Gana Mana) and Hindus(Vande Matram).

---
About do-gooders of real world vs clattering keyboard warriors:
How can 'doing good' be quantified and declared that one is more 'do-gooder' than another? For example, if a person X does
a) in his personal life, supports an ideology and works towards educating others about the ideology.
b) in his public life, supports a regime that works towards undermining that ideology and eliminating it, if possible.

Is the above person X, 'doing good' for the ideology through his personal acts? or is he doing great damage to ideology by supporting anti-ideology regimes?

How does one quantify the above and reach a conclusion?

Personally, I think supporting anti-ideology regime means undermining the ideology. And I don't think one can make up for it by some personal acts because one person's personal act can never be equal to the state's policy.

According to Hinduism, if a sin/crime has taken place, then there are 4 culprits:
a) The actual criminal/sinner.
b) The ones who motivated the criminal to commit crime/sin.
c) The ones who did not stop the crime/sin despite being in a position(and having a duty) to do so.
d) The ones who cheered the crime/sin (instead of being passive or protesting against it).

The least that can be done by the public, when a regime resorts to 'sin/crime' is protest, if not publicly, then atleast in private. If even that cannot be done, then maybe one should remain quite. But, if one chooses to support the regime, then one shares the blame, from Hindu perspective. This is the logic used support burning of Lanka by Hanuman, even though it was only Ravana who abducted Sita Amma. This is the logic used to punish Bhishma, Drona, Kripa and Ashwattama, even though it was only Duryodhana and his friends(Shakuni, Karna and Dusshasana) who insulted Draupadi. In both the cases, Vibhishana and Vidura were spared for protesting against the decisions of the regime.

Lastly, Hinduism goes one step ahead and accepts 'crime by association'.

---
Another interesting cartoon of those times by R K Laxman:

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 21 Jan 2013 23:39

There was an article posted by a senior poster. It was about "how to conquer a nation" I am seeing a pattern where media and nations morale is being compromised in a systematic manner by various means. Then we have nation's economic and defense sectors compromised. India as a nation is being systematically dismantled. Correct me if i am wrong

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 22 Jan 2013 00:34

Altair wrote:There was an article posted by a senior poster. It was about "how to conquer a nation" I am seeing a pattern where media and nations morale is being compromised in a systematic manner by various means. Then we have nation's economic and defense sectors compromised. India as a nation is being systematically dismantled. Correct me if i am wrong

Welcome Altair!! Even though the realization is almost decade late.

Bharat will die unless interanal NSAs rise and make sacrifices .

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jan 2013 00:45

JohneeG garu,

There is a well concerted propaganda throughout india that took this JLNism to prophetic levels.

We need to ask an honest question about that RKL cartoon. Was Hindu Bharat ever against progress, prosperity, dharmic & uniform civil/criminal code, equal rights and ultimate protection for women and so on?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Jan 2013 02:57

Today's political situation in India is best summed up by this:

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Jan 2013 03:00

^ Is this the reality or is it how the media want us to see it?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Jan 2013 04:54

Nehruji was built up as the Jesus and Caesar of modern India that is Bharat. Those who built him up were the Kongigoons.

You see them on the left side of the Janus faced cartoon.

BTW anyone notice the bulldog barking at the Vande Mataram crowd on the right and looking like one of them? Who is that?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Jan 2013 05:01

That buffoon Shinde has to go. The idiocy with which this Government is functioning is just unbelievable.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 22 Jan 2013 05:17

ShauryaT wrote:
brihaspati wrote: Hence the contradictions of the complex foxtrot evident in the debates. I hope you see that both RamaY ji and SahuryaT jis are right, depending on which aspect you choose to highlight.
B ji: My fundamental charge is the leadership of the time, led by the INC failed to prevent the partition of the land and failed to rise to the challenge of the ML.

I am in no denial of the magnitude of effort required to resist or have any illusions of a grand outcome even if successful, but the charge remains- they failed to rise to the challenge. The counter by some is no "it was good and a tactical retreat" and some admit that looking at the post facto situation, it was probably best. What is your view on the matter. There are probably multiple questions there.

My views are very clear. It was a blunder for some, and for the remainder it was a crime - motivated by greed for personal power. That was the time to finish off the anti-Indian forces forever. At the minimum, three geographical areas should have been secured - the access to the sea bordering on the Gulf-Sindh-Baluchistan, the access to Tajikistan, and complete blocking of the KV upto Swat, and rounding up all the areas bordering Myanmar.

The British chose their candidate well. At one stroke they had defanged indigenous and independent militarist forces coming up, and the complete replacement of British recruited state admin functionaries+intel, secured enough blackmail material to last generations, and eliminated those brains that would never accept foreign "friendly" handshakes.

The one side of "Indic" meme that attracts me most is the possibility of rebirth, to fulfill unfulfilled tasks. So I look at this blunder-crime in a very positive light. I do not entirely subscribe to the karma-rebirth-penalty-reward theory (as it is logically inconsistent) but I subscribe to the possibility of purposive births - and whole collections of souls arriving to provide the effort to take forward unfinished tasks. I therefore see this as a lesson as to what should not be done the next time around, and what should be done right.

We need to repossess these three pivots - the three key vulnerabilities-gateways to the core, and ensure that ideology and society is rebuilt with a view to prevent even contrary movements to reappear in all our hinterland (including CAR and Gulf and across the Himalayas). It means expansion, and power to drive that expansion. Until that happens, no moksha - let that be the motto. Return, again and again, until this is accomplished.

If we accept what JLN managed to do, JLN deserves all credit he is given. If we can eventually reverse what JLN managed to do to Indian society and polity that resulted in foreign imperialist ideology's agenda for the subcontinent being forwarded, we would be able to justify our claim that JLN was wrong. Many dynasties have risen and fallen into the dust of time, so I don't really care about dynasties. It is going to be a matter of time onlee.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Jan 2013 09:39

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19872

I attended this talk by Shivshankar Menon yesterday. I put to him pretty much the same question that I put to home secretary GK Pillai at a talk about 3 years ago and got pretty much the same reply, indicating the state of thought on the issue in GoI.

I asked why the GoI did not address face-on the issue of warped education in Pakistan causing Pakis to hate India in general and Hindus in particular. His reply, like that of Pillai was that the government did not want to concern itself about these things which were best left to lay media. Menon went on to add that the GoI would not simply talk about something that they could not do anything about.

I disagree with GoI, Menon and Pillai on the following counts
1. The people of India take a cue from the GoI, and unless GoI indicates that it is intereated and concerned about an Issue, Indians do not even know if anyone in the GoI knows about it or is concerned at all. People in the GoI, bureaucrats and politicians seem to be so far removed from the population that they do not seem to care that they need to create and mould awareness among Indians. No point lamenting that Indin civilians are not appearing in droves to contribute to security of the GoI itself takes the attitude that it can ignore issues. No Sir. I think Menon and Pillai are sophisticated and smart. But both are wrong on this count.

2. If Menon says that this is not the 1950s when we simply made statements about which we could do nothing, why the the GoI keep firing dossiers at Pakistan about an issue regarding which the Goi has made little progress? Sorry Mr Menoin sir. You are a suave diplomat, but you represent GoI and you are speaking on behalf of the GoI. I disagree.

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 22 Jan 2013 10:22

Shinde diatribe: The murkier it gets, the merrier they are

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... r-they-are

Perhaps India’s home minister forgothe represents India and not Pakistan.Or maybe they wanted to divert attention from the humiliation Indian soldiers received from Pakistan and the price rise debate. Sothe attack, instead of targeting Pakistan, was diverted towards Hindus: Hindus are terrorists.
They train Hindu workers in terrorism. They have their terror camps. And who else but RSS and the BJP are running training camps.
Three cheers for the highly revealing disclosures, Mr Home Minister.
And since the home minister is speaking, why do they need any proof to substantiate their allegations?
So far we have been hearing Pakistanis having training camps in Muzaffarabad, they collect funds in Rawalpindi and Karachi openly to support terrorist organizations, someone called Hafiz Saeed is the kingpin and India’s most wanted criminal getting all protection in Pakistan, they are not helping us to investigate26/11 attackers and their handlers.
But now let us train our guns on BJP and RSS, India’s most dreaded terrorist outfits because we are unable to do anything in this regard. Hence turn the enemies into friends. Say, Hafiz Saeed saheb, Dawood Ibrahim ji. So that their heart melts and become friendly to us.
The murkier this debate would turn, the merrier would be the Congress and the media channels.
In a year when the govt also paid tribute to the cyclonic Hindu monk Swami Vivekananda, willy-nilly, in a half empty Vigyan Bhavan, the very tribe of Vivekananda is attacked by the same government.
No government on this planet would become so hateful towards its own majority, just because the Hindus are a fragmented lot, Hindu leaders are not united and the votes are precious.
No government would turn a blind eye to its own children, the soldiers, their insult and humiliation and try to put their angst under the carpet through murky tricks.
And no government will ever turn its guns on its political rivals, however bitter the rivalries might be, in a communally devastating manner justto divert attention from issues that were uncomfortable to it.
The interest of the nation remains supreme for most civil and sane governments. And those governments act for the people and not for party workers alone.
What interest of the nation this worthy home minister and the UPA isserving by triggering a debate that is bound to divide the society on communal lines? Is that the interests of the rioters and the vote dividend gatherers that this government has in mind?
Thank you, sir.
Now the Hindu leaders and their spokespersons would be quoting Swami Vivekananda, will say look, even after we were hounded out of Kashmir and exiled, we didn’t turn terrorists, we are the biggest victims of Islamist terrorism since a thousand years, look at our temples, Kashi, Ayodhya, Mathura, see how we were bombed at Akshardham, Sankatmochan, Delhi, Kolkata, Guwahati, and how we are being outnumbered by a demographic aggression from across the borders. Yet we have kept moving, working hard, learning, excelling in software, engineering, medicine, creating media houses that deride very faith fully Hindus only.
Sir, we can be cowards, as Gandhi said, but we can't be terrorists.
And everything they say would go unheard in the din of the assaulters.
They would scream: ‘No you are’.
‘No you are a terrorist’.
Till someone would really stand up and say: do you really want me to be a terrorist so that you may win Muslim votes?
They were getting bored of the continuing debate on India’s pusillanimous attitude on Soldiers who were brought back home with their heads chopped off. Still the peace talks with Pakistan should have continued. So the change in the public debate’s colour helped. They can assure their Muslim vote bank- look how we have turned the focus on Hindu consolidation, put them on the defensive and we shall take on them.
They can also delight the hearts of the ISI and Islamabad handlers of terrorist butchers -- keep your cool, neither Afzal is being hanged nor anyreprisal is planned in the wake of soldiers’ humiliation. We are taking care of the noise makers: the Hindus, who were demanding strict action against Pakistan, against terrorists, against the hate mongers.
The issues and the points being raised on the debate are not how to combat terrorism, of any variety, shade or size, together. The issue thisgovernment wants to discuss is how to divide the society on Hindu-Muslim lines, make the leaders representing the so-called Hindu organizations attack Muslims, or at least create an atmosphere where Hindus are seen as fighting and attacking Muslims and Muslims are provoked, encouraged to give ‘befitting’ replies.
It helps every one of these vote-harvesters.
Like a famine helps all except the poor people, who suffer, a communaldivide and tensions on Hindu-Muslim lines help Congress and the Pakistan rulers alike. Except the common Hindus and the common Muslims.
So precipitated has turned the communal hatred and a pathological alienation from the ethos and civilization of this nation, that like the babus who formed the foundation of British rule in India, these leaders attacking Hindus provide ideological shield to all anti-national outfits. Shielding terrorists in Pakistan, using respectful words for who h

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jan 2013 10:48

shiv wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=19872

I asked why the GoI did not address face-on the issue of warped education in Pakistan causing Pakis to hate India in general and Hindus in particular. His reply, like that of Pillai was that the government did not want to concern itself about these things which were best left to lay media. Menon went on to add that the GoI would not simply talk about something that they could not do anything about.

What is the reason to plead inability? True, they may not be able to change Pakistani school curriculum, but

1) they can bring out a detailed analysis and critique of the education there;

2) they can start Indian media to highlight the lies and hate the Pakistani are taught;

3) considering how the Pakistanis are tuned in into Indian Television and Indian films, and even Indian content on the Internet, they can certainly make an impact;

4) by taking the initiative, they give the Indian media the direction and talking points, and perhaps then the Indian media too would be talking more about it;

5) by countering that what they are teaching in Pakistan, they can build a firewall against such propaganda seeping in into the Indian Muslim community.

By not countering it, they are sanctioning it! So one does wonder, whether they are stupid or whether they take Indians for stupid.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 22 Jan 2013 13:18

Very true Rajesh Ji between being 'able to effect change and not doing anything there is a big yawning chasm. It's like the health ministry people smoke, i can't stop them..so better to keep quiet. The problem is too fold with Indian GOi. First they have made it sacrosanct to not touch upon others' internal affairs. They pretend as if interference' in the affairs of other states is the wisest mantra discovered by Foregin policy experts in India after tawa roti. This irrespective if the worst schemes, propaganda, camps are daggers are being drawn against India right across where our border ends.

But just like between banning cigarettes and keeping mum there are a wide range of choices available in campaigning in schools, creating awareness, assistance etc, the same is available if India has values left to make a stand. Which brings us again to the fundamental lack of the GoI and it's occupants to get a backbone that people and other nations can notice. We don't stand up for anything because we have stopped standing up for something quite sometime back. Now it requires outrage from citizenry on the streets to push the GoI to observe, note or move a bit. This should have happened on it's own. When the adherence to the Ism has truly conquered fundamental values, we see complete lack of outrage on the part of the Institutional machinery. It will still take a long time for us to base our actions on values, than the basing our actions through the prism of isms that have clouded our thinking.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 23 Jan 2013 01:24

Amazing interview from Francois Gautier.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jan 2013 11:17

http://newindianexpress.com/prabhu_chaw ... 427280.ece

Chintan check: Between Sonia’s left and Manmohan’s right is a confused Congress

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 16:58

Suppiah ji in TSP thread:

It fits a pattern...what we are witnessing is nothing adjust of a pogrom to destroy India by destroying dharma...

I disagree with this. INC is not destroying Dharma. It is acting in complete good faith to the best of it's ability. The good faith is in interpreting the Consititutional preamble. That of Socialism and Secularism. A large section of society buys that notion. BJP and Hindu parties are seen as opposing both the fundamentals of the constitutional preamble by opposing largesse dole outs like NREGs, not being sympathetic to minorities etc. This is not just a matter of interpretation. It is a matter of faith in the preamble that INC demonstrates better than others.

The BJP and Hindutva parties can never unite under a Hindu banner, It will always be meaningless to most Indians or non (Xtian, Muslim and Jew). What is more meaningful to most Indians is value based interpretation of Dharma. Many seers interpreted it a millenia ago wrt society then and laid out Dharmashastra's. While we cannot go by them today as they are, we can certainly agree to many values systems that most citizens in this country agree to and find common ground. Those fundamental value systems enshrined in Dharmic values remains firm and untainted. They cannot be tainted by either INC or BJP or Commie antics.

The big elephant in he room that everyone seems to give the short stick is Dharmic value systems and not Hinduism or Secularism. A lot of confusion and junk isms and their votaries in good faith of course will see sunset without a fig of a fight. After all who wants to oppose a simple value system like say Truth that comes first in the constitutional preamble. Satyameva Jayate should not be a slogan. It should be made the primary in the preamble. We would instantly be a Dharmic state by doing so. After all Truth=God. Massive confusion in society is eliminated by that simple one liner. Simply because instead of looking at events, issues through the prism of Isms, secularism, socialism that courts, institutions, commissions in India look through all the time and consequently giving idiotic judgements and conclusions that enrage the common man, the issue will be dealt with directly wrt no ideology but the plain truth in perspective. If lacking in arriving at the truth, mechanisms will be put in place to arrive at it, rather than mechanisms to uphold Isms like secularism etc rather than the simple truth.

The rise of India will not coincide with the rise of INC or fall of it, neither will it coincide with the rise of BJP or Modi or the AAP. It will only coincide with our investment in upholding those Dharmic value systems. The faster we realize that, the faster we make progress and stem the confusion in polity.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Jan 2013 17:24

No amount of convoluted logic is going to rescue the INC from its own recent actions. The party runs riot over Indian national interests for the sake of appeasing vote banks and afilliated anti-Indian organisations in Pakistan, pay masters perhaps.

No thanks, harbans ji.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 17:48

The party runs riot over Indian national interests for the sake of appeasing vote banks and afilliated anti-Indian organisations in Pakistan, pay masters perhaps.

No Pratik ji, you didn't read what i wrote. INC is completely acting in Indian Interests. So is Akbaruddin Owaissi. If you think they don't have India's interests in their mind, then you have made major error in judgement. The Taliban too have nothing but Pakistan and Afghanistan's interests in mind.

The only quibble i have with is what interests they are acting upon. Some put 'Secular' or Psec interpretation of the constitution. Remember before any value system in the constitution, we have Secular and Socialist first. They are PRIMARY. Everything else comes after. Now INC is only through many GoI institutions interpreting Secular and Socialist through that prism. Each issue that is tackled in the country including many that make it to headlines if you notice are being tackled through exactly the prism of secular and socialism.

Owaisi's consider Indian interests best served through not secular socialist policy but through Sharia rule. So they too have India's national interests very much in their minds. So does Imam Bukhari. Only the notion by which they interpret Indian National interest is changed.

But never say they don't believe in Indian national interests. They do, in their own way. That is why i keep stressing why it is important to define Indian National interests through the prism of value systems and not through the prism of isms like secualirism, socialism, mughalism, islamism, whatever'ism etc etc..

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 23 Jan 2013 18:33

I understand you now. Thank you for explaining.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 20:07

To myself, and crores of others, there is no difference between Hinduism and "Dharmic Value Systems." I always have, and always will refer to the traditional value and knowledge systems of India by the term "Hinduism" in English, and "Hindu Dharm" in Indian languages.

It is Hindu Dharm, not some amorphously delineated "Dharmic Value System", which propounded the national movement for independence under Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bipin Chandra Pal. It is Hindu Dharm, not some confused notion of "Dharmic this or Dharmic that" which Vivekananda restored as a beacon of inspiration for the modern nation of India. And it is Hindu Dharm, not some vague high-minded abstraction, which keeps 80% of the people of India invested emotionally, psychologically and spiritually in the welfare of India today.

Hinduism is here to stay, and attempting to change the terminology proffers even less value for effort than a dog chasing its own tail. Surely we have more important matters that demand our time and energy.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 20:22

RamaY wrote:
Since we don't know who the real people behind these clattering handles are it may not be wise to judge them as no do-gooders. Who knows, they might me doing 1000 times more than what we have been doing on the ground for the same interests we all are working.

On this issue, Rama Y bandhu, you are absolutely right. Every BRF-ite (at least, those of our generation and younger) began as a clattering keyboard warrior onlee. The clattering keyboard is the beginning of the journey for all of us, all motivated people in the information age. From there on the journey can go in many directions and for long years. So it's perfectly possible, that some of the people behind the clattering keyboards may have done 1000 times more than you or I to serve our common interests.

But how many? How many go on from clattering at the keyboard to those increasingly difficult and dangerous stages of this journey? Versus, how many are negatively motivated by opportunity cost for leisure time/ opportunity cost for making money/ opposition from wife and family/ fear of boss and career consequences/ fear of offending strangers and facing nasty consequences/ fear of reprisal from powerful people etc. etc. etc.?

Therefore, does the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors go on to do more, or do they remain clattering onlee?

You know the answer to that question, and that is exactly what my original post said:

I know for a fact that he has done more- in the real world- to inculcate a sense of dharmic identity among young people, and arm them against the forces of deracination, than the vast majority of clattering keyboard warriors could ever be expected to.

Do you disagree?

And who are the worthies that got shunned from the forum? Why would they leave the forum especially when they are "informed" verity? What are they informed about by the way, the inner workings of C-system? If so, Then why the need for this forum as we have unditv which is more informed and integrated with the ruling 2-g disposition?

Are we missing something here?

Where have I said anything about people being shunned from the forum?

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 23 Jan 2013 20:23

^^^ And also my opinion is that we shouldnt cringe or have reservations to call ourselves Hindus. Look around none of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim junta ever thinks twice and they proudly announce who they. Secularism is already embedded in Hinduism so no need to act secular through overt means. It is like trying to perfect the perfect. Like Rajiv Malhotra ji says, be different and dont shy away from it, there is nothing wrong about it.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 23 Jan 2013 20:30

Talking of recent comments by Shinde about Hindu terrorism and them having links with R s s and B j p I was reminded of the first ever hijacking , the ultimate in terrorist related crimes recognized now a days, was committed by two congress workers in 1978 immediately after the arrest of Smt Indira gandhi by the then Janta party Govt which came into power after emergency was lifted and elections were held.

After brief search I found a mention of it in Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bholanath_ ... dra_Pandey

Bholanath and Devendra Pandey are two friends who in 1978 hijacked an Indian Airlines plane on a domestic flight. They demanded the release of opposition leader Indira Gandhi (who had been arrested by Indian parliament) and the withdrawal of all the cases against her son Sanjay Gandhi.[1] They carried only toy weapons. After keeping 132 passengers hostage for some hours, they surrendered in the presence of media.

The Indian National Congress party rewarded them with party tickets for 1980 state assembly election.[1] Both won the election and became members of the legislative assembly of Uttar Pradesh. Bhola served as a Congress MLA from 1980 to 1985 while Devendra remained a member of the house for two terms.

Devendra served the party as a general secretary of Uttar Pradesh Congress Committee (UPCC) until recently. He is now nurturing the Sultanpur constituency in the hope of a Congress ticket in the next elections.

Bholanath unsuccessfully contested the 1999 Lok Sabha elections from Salempur as a Congress candidate.

Outlook article

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?208716

Contrary to what political parties might now proclaim, their record is not blemishless when it comes to hijackings. The Congress and the BJP have been guilty in the past of providing patronage to hijackers. While the Congress rewarded two hijackers with assembly tickets in Uttar Pradesh, Atal Behari Vajpayee was sympathetic to the hijacker who demanded the construction of a Ram temple at Ayodhya.

On January 23, 1993, Satish Chandra Pandey, a staunch Ram bhakt and BJP supporter from Sultanpur, hijacked a Delhi-bound Indian Airlines (IA) plane from Lucknow, holding 48 passengers hostage. He was protesting against the then prime minister P.V. Narasimha Rao’s assurance-soon after the demolition of the Babri Masjid-that "it will be reconstructed". "I flew into a rage," Satish said then. "I wanted to attract the attention of the government." Soon after hijacking the aircraft, Pandey got in touch with Vajpayee. He surrendered before Vajpayee.

Satish was imprisoned for four years and released on bail on the condition that he would present himself at Lucknow’s Sarojini Nagar police station each month the following year. The Lucknow police did not keep track of him after that. But Vajpayee did, according to The Sydney Morning Herald’s Christopher Kremmer. On June 27, 1996, Vajpayee wrote a letter to him on his official letterhead condoling Satish’s father’s death. "I share your grief. I pray to the Lord for your father’s soul and (to) give the family members the strengh to bear this," he wrote.

Bholanath Pandey, on his part, resents being called a hijacker. "It was purely a political protest for a great Indian leader (Indira Gandhi) who was sent to jail unfairly," he says of his December 20, 1978, adventure when he and Devendra Pandey, another diehard Indira loyalist, commandeered an IA flight as it flew over Aligarh. "We had no weapons and as we entered the cabin we announced our intention to the passengers," says Bholanath, who unsuccessfully contested the 1999 Lok Sabha elections from Salempur. The 132 passengers were held hostage for some hours before the two called it quits in the presence of the media. Soon after, both men became active Congressmen. Bholanath and Devendra were elected to the Vidhan Sabha in 1980. Bhola served as a Congress mla from 1980 to 1985 while Devendra remained a member of the house for two terms. Devendra, upcc general secretary till recently, is now nurturing Sultanpur constituency in the hope of a Congress ticket in the next elections. Even though the Congress has condemned the recent hijacking, it can’t gloss over the fact that it has been patronising hijackers.

Equal equal onlee........

It is irrelevant that they carried toy guns or that no one was hurt. Hijack is a hijack and now carries maximum penalty.

Now shall someone accuse INC of promoting terrorism long back since 1978, encouraging it actively and setting bad precedence first. Look inside before you accuse others.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Jan 2013 20:31

Rudradev wrote:To myself, and crores of others, there is no difference between Hinduism and "Dharmic Value Systems." I always have, and always will refer to the traditional value and knowledge systems of India by the term "Hinduism" in English, and "Hindu Dharm" in Indian languages.

It is Hindu Dharm, not some amorphously delineated "Dharmic Value System", which propounded the national movement for independence under Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bipin Chandra Pal. It is Hindu Dharm, not some confused notion of "Dharmic this or Dharmic that" which Vivekananda restored as a beacon of inspiration for the modern nation of India. And it is Hindu Dharm, not some vague high-minded abstraction, which keeps 80% of the people of India invested emotionally, psychologically and spiritually in the welfare of India today.

Hinduism is here to stay, and attempting to change the terminology proffers even less value for effort than a dog chasing its own tail. Surely we have more important matters that demand our time and energy.

+1008
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 2#p1392512
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1393545
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1394529

We have umpteen instances of people attempting to comeup with some Dharmic Code and usher a new world, they all failed because they tried to cut themselves from the roots. Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism etc too are such attempts.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 21:10

It is Hindu Dharm, not some amorphously delineated "Dharmic Value System", which propounded the national movement for independence under Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bipin Chandra Pal. It is Hindu Dharm, not some confused notion of "Dharmic this or Dharmic that" which Vivekananda restored as a beacon of inspiration for the modern nation of India. And it is Hindu Dharm, not some vague high-minded abstraction, which keeps 80% of the people of India invested emotionally, psychologically and spiritually in the welfare of India today.

Rudra ji, irrespective of whoever said what about Hinduism, truth is it was a term given by foreigners. It denoted all those who were not Muslim, Xtian or Jews. Next Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains joined in not calling themselves Hindu. Now it's the turn of Arya Samaji's, Hare Krishna'ites and more to join the fray. Meanwhile we can stick to the terminology and negate what really binds us all together. Value systems we would like our Government to uphold first before paying obeisance to anything else. All our major scriptures talk not about upholding some flowery foreign given terminology given to us, but Dharmic value systems including the pursuit of Truth and knowledge without fear. Also let us acknowledge from independence to the 90's the loudest votaries of Hindu Dharma failed to get even a few seats in parliament. So i don't buy the rhetoric of 80% hindu's having invested emotionally, psychologically, spiritually in India's welfare. They invested in a constitution that holds Secularism and Socialism on it's preamble very prominently. Not some Hindu abstraction from what i can see. And have voted most times a party that also adheres best to those notions in their opinion.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 23 Jan 2013 21:12

Rudradev wrote:To myself, and crores of others, there is no difference between Hinduism and "Dharmic Value Systems." I always have, and always will refer to the traditional value and knowledge systems of India by the term "Hinduism" in English, and "Hindu Dharm" in Indian languages.

It is Hindu Dharm, not some amorphously delineated "Dharmic Value System", which propounded the national movement for independence under Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bipin Chandra Pal. It is Hindu Dharm, not some confused notion of "Dharmic this or Dharmic that" which Vivekananda restored as a beacon of inspiration for the modern nation of India. And it is Hindu Dharm, not some vague high-minded abstraction, which keeps 80% of the people of India invested emotionally, psychologically and spiritually in the welfare of India today.

Hinduism is here to stay, and attempting to change the terminology proffers even less value for effort than a dog chasing its own tail. Surely we have more important matters that demand our time and energy.

+10000. Concise and precise. I tried to point out the same thing, but it was ignored. RamaY saar, also tried.

Anyway it seems there is some takleef with the word 'Hindu'. Fine, no problem. But, without spelling the exact nature of that takleef, one is attempting to engage in disingenuous and convoluted logic ignoring the obvious.

It would have been better if one had clearly expressed what problem they had with the term 'Hinduism'. I suspect that the problem is not with the term, but with Hinduism itself. One does not want to accept Hinduism as the basis and instead wants some vague 'Dharma' as the basis. The term 'Dharma' is being propped as a proxy.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 21:18

We have umpteen instances of people attempting to comeup with some Dharmic Code and usher a new world, they all failed because they tried to cut themselves from the roots. Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism etc too are such attempts.

But all these were in the 'Hindu' fold once. What happens when Arya Samaji's Krishna Bhakts, Vishnu bhakts, Advaita etc followers too opt out. What will be the defining structure of the Hindu then?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 21:19

Sorry Harbans ji, but "Hindu" was NOT a name given by foreigners or colonials, it is an identity that has existed ever since Indians got their first glimpse of the adharmic other. Ever since they first realized that there are some peoples in the world who do not follow dharma, they called themselves Hindus to distinguish themselves from those others.

I refer you again to a post I made in this regard last year, laying out the very ample evidence for this.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1294175

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 21:22

harbans wrote:
We have umpteen instances of people attempting to comeup with some Dharmic Code and usher a new world, they all failed because they tried to cut themselves from the roots. Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism etc too are such attempts.
But all these were in the 'Hindu' fold once. What happens when Arya Samaji's Krishna Bhakts, Vishnu bhakts, Advaita etc followers too opt out. What will be the defining structure of the Hindu then?

This presupposes the idea that Hinduism NEEDS a "defining structure" such as exists in Christism or Islam; and that Hinduism is a "religion" in the universalized sense of the term "religion" i.e. the sense in which it is applied to Christism or Islam. It is not... it is different from them and it is fine that way. There is nothing to opt out of... a red fish can opt out of the school of blue fish but he cannot opt out of the water.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 21:24

One does not want to accept Hinduism as the basis and instead wants some vague 'Dharma' as the basis. The term 'Dharma' is being propped as a proxy.

Johnee G, no proxy here. The vagueness is not in the 'upholding of Dharma' that is the core of what Ram and Krishna propagated, but in the term Hindu itself. No none of you gave an even definition of HInduism. Every definition and the threads are open are imprecise and different. And it's not for me to say. The proof is there since independence. When have Hindu;s actually united under the Hindu banner? They've voted in INC over HIndu parties most times. Now you will say they are foolish to have been doing so. But the fact of the matter is Hinduism failed to unite. Even Nepal a Hindu country for long fell to a crass maoist uprising. Something must have been weak for it to fall so easily. Or is there someother strength that keeps us together apart from the fact we have been termed Hindu's?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 21:27

Ever since they first realized that there are some peoples in the world who do not follow dharma, they called themselves Hindus to distinguish themselves from those others.

So are you defining HIndu's on the basis of value systems now? People who uphold Dharmic values?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 21:31

harbans wrote:
No none of you gave an even definition of HInduism. Every definition and the threads are open are imprecise and different. And it's not for me to say. The proof is there since independence.

Why does it matter if it lacks a precise and uniform definition? Why do you feel the need to impose a synthetic unity (by diktat) on something which already has an underlying integral unity? Mostly, those who feel the need to do this, are motivated by difference anxiety. They want to show that their religion is every bit as much a "religion" as Christism or Islam, with a precise and uniform definition... because they have been conditioned to accept the Western universalist definition of "religion", and it bothers them to have different underlying criteria for the definition of "religion."

For that matter, can you define "Brahman"? Is there a precise, absolute definition of "Brahman" that you can provide? If there is not, does that mean that "Brahman" does not exist? If you claim "Brahman" does not exist, you're certainly nowhere near any Dharmic value or knowledge system.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 21:32

harbans wrote:
Ever since they first realized that there are some peoples in the world who do not follow dharma, they called themselves Hindus to distinguish themselves from those others.
So are you defining HIndu's on the basis of value systems now? People who uphold Dharmic values?

Not my definition... please read the entire post I linked there. It is how people who upheld Dharmic values first defined themselves when they first encountered people who followed an adharmic belief system.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 23 Jan 2013 21:39

Harbans ji... the problem is that we tend to think of religions as entities that must have definitions of a self-limiting type. I am this, I am not that. We think in this way because we have been influenced by Western universalism to believe that religions MUST define themselves in a self-limiting way.

Hinduism refuses to define itself in a self-limiting way. Its self-definition is open ended. And here is why this is important:

IF Hinduism defined itself in a self-limiting way, then all schools of dharmic thought that are subsets of Hinduism, which defined themselves in self-limiting terms, would be automatically excluded from Hinduism! For example, Ahmediyyas can never be Muslim because both entities have self-limiting definitions. But Arya Samajis and Brahma Kumaris, even though they have self-limiting definitions, are not excluded from Hinduism which has an open-ended self-definition.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 21:46

It is how people who upheld Dharmic values first defined themselves

Rudra Ji, that obviously means that Hindu's primarily defined themselves by Value systems. So what is primarily more important the terminology or Value system? Can we define those Value systems on which Hindu's base themselves?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 23 Jan 2013 22:00

harbans ji,

this is my take on the subject.

Dharmic is good when dealing with values, but Dharmic values, as I see them, are based on a system of inculcating wisdom into an individual enabling him to judge for himself what is Dharmic and what is not. It is based on recognition of the nature of reality and morality in social interactions based on examples, for wisdom is best explained through examples.

In the Abrahamic faiths, you have ten commandments, a list of dos and don'ts, prohibitions and mandates. You get a list. You can shut off your mind and simply follow the list. And if the list is not clear, you have the priests and mullahs and rabbis to explain it to you. There is no philosophy in there. It is theology. You just follow rules and customs. Of course, there are also best practices, which one can aver from the lives of the prophets.

So Dharma cannot really be translated into a written Constitution, just as one cannot put down wisdom through some algorithm or declarations.

"Hindu" however has a different facet than Dharma, or even Sanatan Dharma. Hindu Dharm simply means Dharma which the Hindus ought to live by, but "Hindu" itself is not a value-based term. I think you would agree here.

Hindu is an identity based on continuous historical, mythological, cultural, genealogical and philosophical churning, and it derives from the continuity itself. In fact this churning is not even linear, as there being today a Hindu-"ism" version 26000.60.03-RELEASE. There has been a lot of branching and that is what the system allowed deliberately. Branching is welcome.

Another aspect of Hindus is that the system was also assimilatory, because of our unified model of existence. Other neighboring cultures were assimilated into the bigger narrative of Hindu-ism by creating mythological connectivity, knowledge sharing and increasing people-to-people interactions across geography, but never destroying another group.

So there is both branching and assimilation within Hindu-ism. But Hindu-ism is important because it gives us rootedness, and rootedness one does not get by having values, but by having culture, history, mythology, genealogy, iconry, AND philosophy. This rooted-ness is important because that shapes our identity, and our identity shapes our sense of loyalty.

I am not diminishing the relevance of values, but for a nation and its people, identity is more important. The problem of many Sickular, Marxist, Islamic, Macaulayite, and Yuppy Indians is that we do not really know what really forms our identity and how why we should appreciate that identity's various aspects.

The question of values is important but secondary. Once identity and its appreciation is recognized and accepted, then one moves on to think about how to improve the lot who share in the identity, and then come the values, values that would contribute positively to the whole and values which have been developed through the churning in the group!

What makes me Hindu is because I identify myself with a possibly 26,000 year old ever-evolving but continuous culture!

nawabs · Post by **nawabs** » 23 Jan 2013 22:12

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harbans · Post by **harbans** » 23 Jan 2013 22:22

The question of values is important but secondary.

Rajesh Ji, i get your point. However above you are in conflict with what Rudra Ji says about being Hindu:

It is how people who upheld Dharmic values first defined themselves

I also find what you state to be different from how Rama or Krishna fought primarily to uphold Dharma. In the BG Krishna lays out values clearly. All through we find Truth for example being held in esteem as equal to God. Upholding Dharma means the State must understand what values it stands by. Else it is a confused state. It would be completely chaotic to leave a State to not define itself on the basis of value systems. Islam clashes with so many cultures, not because they eat, drink and pray differently, but because they have different value systems. How we eat, drink may evolve with time for sure, but one thing should not change. Value systems.