Indian Naval Discussion

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Jan 2013 12:02

nash wrote:i think these will be very good against Pirates, no need to send warships for anti-piracy work.

76mm is an overkill for pirates. A 30 mm cannon can be as devastating. Which is precisely the point of Car Nicobar class OPVs.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Jan 2013 12:05

Shrinivasan wrote:
srin wrote:It is almost a corvette (wiki says 2300t) - it is 1000t larger than Kora class, a little less than Kamorta - but has only 76mm and 30mm. But it doesn't carry SSMs nor fire control radar.
Relax... I think there is something hidden here like a VLS plug for SAM or Anti Ship Missile or could be retrofitted shortly. Or it could be loaded with Sensors (Offshore Patrol) and hence low on weaponry. If carries an automatic 76mm rapid fire gun along with CIWS, this is more than enough for Patrols.

I sure hope so. If we are building a 2300t ship, it should be have some utility other than just anti-piracy, like being a missile boat ?

Just a comparison, at 2300t, it is actually heavier and lighter armed than Unkil's LCS USS Independence (all info from wiki - I may be off).

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 22 Jan 2013 12:11

Its an offshore patrol ship not a surface combatant hence equipped with what it has.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Jan 2013 12:44

And looks IN is using this develop Ingeniousness Ship Building capabilities. This will give volumes and better manufacturing capbilities and after 26/11 something which Babus have approved

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 22 Jan 2013 13:15

srin wrote:
I sure hope so. If we are building a 2300t ship, it should be have some utility other than just anti-piracy, like being a missile boat ?

Just a comparison, at 2300t, it is actually heavier and lighter armed than Unkil's LCS USS Independence (all info from wiki - I may be off).

Exactly my thought. Though during times of war, it can easily get some Igla shoulder fired SAMs on board and provide additional cover to a flotilla of naval ships, since unlike normal OPVs this boat can sustain for over a month by itself.

I'm sure we're missing something here. A 2300 ton boat with 110 men on board, only for fending off pirates with a 76mm gun? Maybe tsarkar can shed some light here.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 22 Jan 2013 13:41

IMO, IN will integrate a Dhanush/Shaurya/K15 launchers to the ship as it did with the Sukanya class ships.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 22 Jan 2013 17:57

Guys
Please go back a few pages and see the earlier discussion on the role that OPVs play. Not everything has to be equipped with bells and whistles. Weapons systems and associated sensors always add significantly to both capex and opex.

So..no there are no plans for SSMs etc. for the Saryu or her sisters. This does not rule out basic design being adapted for fleet duties.
R

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 22 Jan 2013 18:03

105 crew for an OPV seems a little on higher side.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Jan 2013 18:19

40 of those berths could be for embarked unit of VBSS types.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 22 Jan 2013 22:07

Singha wrote:40 of those berths could be for embarked unit of VBSS types.

Makes sense... Month long patrols with multiple sets of crew and VBSS parties would help... also they were designed and built with just offshore patrolling in mind... IN is moving toward ships with dedicated uni-role rather than loaded for multi-role!!! we had a similar discussion for P-28 Corvettes too.

titash · Post by **titash** » 22 Jan 2013 22:53

Guys, please refer the discussion on the Saryu Class NOPV in pages 90 - 93 of this same thread. We've beaten this topic to death.

In a nutshell, the Somali pirates are here to stay. Ditto for the IN & ICG. However a Delhi/Talwar is overkill for this role, wears down personnel & equipment, and distracts the IN from its traditional warfighting roles. Hence the need for a dedicated high endurance OPV that can provide a persistent anti-pirate deterrant. We are slowly equipping ourselves for this role...4 Saryu + 5 Pipavav OPV + 6 Saryu derivatives (for ICG) are on order

Thanks,

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 22 Jan 2013 23:14

the point is whether a vessel is ready to be upgraded to a more lethal role as it is something which is always welcomed instead of a vessel being downgraded to a role lesser than its capability ... what happens to this vessels during war? They stay in the harbor?

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 22 Jan 2013 23:34

As a sidenote, Even if not used in war, such a vessel can be effectively used to restart 'normal' role - if it is important so that rest and recuperation can occur on sidelines while normality is restored as required.

titash · Post by **titash** » 22 Jan 2013 23:36

Prithwiraj wrote:the point is whether a vessel is ready to be upgraded to a more lethal role as it is something which is always welcomed instead of a vessel being downgraded to a role lesser than its capability ... what happens to this vessels during war? They stay in the harbor?

Sirjee - a war happens once in a decade, if at all. These cheaper vessels are meant for the lower intensity operations that the navy is required to perform in the remaining 3600 (of 3650) days. During the (say) 50-day war, these vessels will either form part of a task group, or more likely, will form part of an inner EEZ protective ring of ASW platforms. Their main contribution will be the ASW helicopter that they will embark and support. I can visualize 3 Kamortas and 6-7 of these OPVs supporting 10+ ASW helicopters round the clock

Note that the IN's most potent ASW weapon is the embarked helicopter. In that role, these OPVs provide the numbers needed for successful prosecution of a submerged contact

And to be very honest, the PN's surface fleet is not going to come out and fight - that would be suicidal. Our naval and merchant shipping will be threatened primarily by their subs. The PAF has a squadron of Mirage-5 that can carry the AM-39 Exocet, but given the IAF's ability to pound the PAF day and night with a large fleet of all-weather Sukhois, I don't see them sparing the Mirages to strike at the IN (at least not at a high frequency). Let us also not forget that in 10 years time, the IN air arm will have 100+ fighters

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 23 Jan 2013 00:38

Prithwiraj wrote:the point is whether a vessel is ready to be upgraded to a more lethal role as it is something which is always welcomed instead of a vessel being downgraded to a role lesser than its capability ... what happens to this vessels during war? They stay in the harbor?

Why upgrade an OPV when there are more powerful platforms available... these are just meant for Anti-Piracy and offshore installation protection... imagine screening force for our Nuclear plants along the cost, offshore Oil rigs, Ports etc from attacks.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 Jan 2013 10:32

Latest news of Russian subs on offer for export customers.

http://rbth.ru/business/2013/01/22/russ ... 22111.html

Russia plans to sell multipurpose submarines abroad

January 22, 2013Andrei Lvov

Russia’s military-industrial complex is increasing arms exports through Rosoboronexport, year after year, and the naval component is no exception. However, the latest contract for the supply of non-nuclear submarines is unique.
. Source: ITAR-TASS

Rosoboronexport is in continued talks with Italy on the supply of S1000 submarines. However, these boats will not see action in either the Russian or the Italian navy. Instead, they will be sold exclusively to third-party countries.

Experts at the Rubin Central Design Bureau for Marine Engineering and Italy’s Fincantieri completed the conceptual design of the S1000 a few years ago. The submarine was always intended for third-party countries. The Italian shipbuilding company presented a mockup in 2008, at the 21st International Naval Defense and Maritime Exhibition and at the Conference Euronaval 2008.

Related:

Russian Navy plans further expansion

Russian submersible passes trials in the Arctic

Reports on Russian submarine off the U.S. coast fuel tensions

According to Fincantieri Commercial Director Enrico Bonnetti, “the submarine’s architecture has been determined, equipment has been positioned, and an integrated combat system has been designed.”

The S1000 is 56-meters long, with an outside hard-hull diameter of 5.5 meters (18 feet), a submerged displacement of around 1100 tons, a maximum depth of more than 250 meters (820 feet), and a top underwater speed of more than 14 knots. The submarine can carry a crew of 16, plus six special operations troops.

The propulsion system includes two diesel generators, a battery, an electric motor and an AIP system with an electrochemical generator. Both Russian- and Italian-made equipment will be installed in equal amounts.

The S1000 non-nuclear submarine is designed for anti-submarine warfare, reconnaissance missions, special operations support and transporting underwater subversive troops. The submarine can perform these tasks both in shallow coastal waters and in deep-sea conditions. Secondary objectives include anti-ship warfare, mining and naval aircraft support.

The Soviet Union — and later Russia — have traditionally sold non-nuclear, diesel-electric submarines abroad.

“Our key product in this global market segment is the Project 636 submarine, which is the current bestseller. But we are also promoting the new Amur-1500 submarine,” said Rosoboronexport head Anatoly Isaykin.

“This is not a replacement for Project 636; it is an entirely new submarine that we will be promoting in parallel with Project 636. The Amur-1500 will also be in demand from international buyers, as it will be offered in different versions — including a version with an air-independent propulsion system that is becoming increasingly popular in the naval market,” Isaykin said.

He added that sales of naval hardware through Rosoboronexport amounted to 20 percent of total military exports last year and were slightly higher than in 2011.

The Russian navy will soon receive Project 636 submarines, as well.

A keel-laying ceremony for a large diesel-electric Project 636.3 submarine named Stary Oskol was held at the end of last summer, at the Admiralty Shipyard. These submarines are now being built for the Russian navy, after being exported for 20 years.

This submarine is expected to get a version of the new Kalibr missile system (exported as the Club-S) with a range of 1,500 kilometers (932 miles). There is one hitch though: to use this missile complex, a new combat command and control system is needed; its flaws have become one of the reasons behind the delays in building and deploying the Lada-class submarines for Russia’s navy.

Project 636 submarines are armed with six torpedo launchers located in the bow; six torpedoes sit in shafts that are automatically reloaded after each launch. The torpedoes can be replaced with 24 mines, two in each launcher. Two torpedo launchers have been designed to fire high-precision, remotely controlled torpedoes. All launchers and their service systems can fire from both periscope and tactical operating depths.

The launchers can be reloaded within 15 seconds.

According to expert assessments, the submarine is low noise and “sees” better underwater than the most widespread American-made, Los Angeles-class submarines.

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Jan 2013 10:38

Prithwiraj wrote:the point is whether a vessel is ready to be upgraded to a more lethal role as it is something which is always welcomed instead of a vessel being downgraded to a role lesser than its capability ... what happens to this vessels during war? They stay in the harbor?

To add to what others have already pointed out, a Navy has multiple roles it needs to fulfill. The two primary ones are war fighting and maritime security. Of the two, the latter is what the navy does year round, and these operations require long-ranged but cheap vessels (i.e. around $100 million or less). You need quantities of these to cover the Indian Ocean region. Even in wartime, you will need to provide maritime security in the form of escorting vessels, protection of offshore installations, patrolling sea lanes, conducting blockades, etc. Coast Guard vessels will also join in these security roles.

When you talk about War fighting ships, they cost somewhere between $650 million to more than a billion each. Clearly, it's not feasible to have many of these and those that you do have you want to have them available as much as possible for wars (and show of force) and not chasing after pirates and other lighter duties.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Jan 2013 13:31

else its the unedifying sight of billion dollar warships launching a zodiac craft filled with marines to sink a 15 ft pirate skiff
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/20 ... iracy-.jpg
http://cmf24.files.wordpress.com/2012/1 ... =300&h=183

we just need cheap ships with CODAD plants but large and steady hulls with enough men and food to make it cost effective.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2013 06:20

When vessels as small as the Pauk (Abhay) class,can carry a lethal packet of ASW TTs,etc.,on the same hull as a Tarantula missile corvette (450t+),why can't the far larger AOPVs also carry some integral ASW TTs at least? There appears to be no provision for them to be installed in a crisis and the present and future threat from the Sino-Pak axis will be from their huge combined inventory of submarines,including many AIP subs.

True that the IN is looking for a design for 12 ASW coastal corvettes to replace the Pauks,but there is no harm in fitting out the AOPVs which have longer sea legs for the offshore ASW role too,which will assist the larger and better equipped FFGs and DDGs.This is where EU navies have scored with their modular designs such as the STANFLEX danish design.

StanFlex (also known as STANFLEX or Standard Flex) is a modular mission payload system used by the Kongelige Danske Marine (Royal Danish Navy, KDM).

Originally conceived during the 1980s as a way of replacing several classes of minor war vessel with a single class of multi-role ships (the Flyvefisken class), the StanFlex system consists of weapons and equipment mounted in standardised containers, which can be loaded into slots on the ships. These containers can be swapped out in a short period of time, allowing the ship to switch between roles when needed.

The success of the modular payload system led the KDM to design all new warships with StanFlex slots, and to install slots on older vessels during major refits. By 2012, nine ship classes capable of carrying StanFlex payloads will be in service.
Contents

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Jan 2013 07:51

MEKO (blohm & voss) of germany also did the modular weapon system thing back in the 1980s...still do I suppose. the current OPV offering is similar in style to Saryu class https://www.blohmvoss-naval.com/en/offs ... ssels.html

Philip, the HWTs being 18ft long need space thats not much available on smaller ships. ships launching LWT puts it well within range of any ASM/HWT from a sub and very vulnerable. hence better to let a embarked helicopter launch LWT in that case...I would imagine installing a RBU system + HWT 3TT would needed + towed and bow sonar to make it anywhere near effective in sub hunting. also isnt a CODLAG plant the preferred one for sub hunting, not CODAD?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2013 08:33

True,but the small Pauk's do carry both HWT and LWT TTs,and the same dipping sonar used by the ASW Kamov's. In high sea states,helo ops will be difficult too and without any integral ASW weaponry,the vessel will be a sitting duck.The Soviet's were excellent at standardisation and innovating.Therefore,the same ASW dipping sonar on the helo-or variant,can be also used by the vessel along with either or both sizes of TTs in the much larger AOPVs.We have done well with the same 30mm gun used on the ICVs in a naval avatar on the PCs.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 24 Jan 2013 09:34

One thing funny about INS Saryu. the OPV which was commissioned recently is an OPV of latest design with Pennant # F57, our DDM is parroting around the older INS Sarayu (F54) which is now SLNS Sayura.

New Ship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Saryu_(P57)
Old Ship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Sarayu_(P54)

Has anyone seen a picture of the new INS Saryu (F57)? it seems to be really Stealthy...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jan 2013 11:39

Looking at the pics of the NOPVs,if the main gun is positioned a little forward of its current ,location where a "B" turret would be,there will be space to locate an ASW mortar.A lightweight turret for the main gun would also help.ASW TTs could be located behind sliding doors as in other warships.

John · Post by **John** » 24 Jan 2013 20:48

Phillip,
Unlikely RPK-8 requires great deal of space for reload mechanism and additional rounds takes up as much room as 8 cell universal vls (used for Klub/Brahmos) unless you were referring RBU-1000?

member_20036 · Post by **member_20036** » 24 Jan 2013 21:45

India to present Dornier aircraftto Seychelles

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 167440.cms

KANPUR: India will gift a Dornier DO-228 aircraft to Seychelles to carry out surveillance and anti-piracy missions.
Defence minister AK Antony will present Hindustan Aironautics Limited's Dornier DO-228 aircraft to Seychelles President James Michel on January 31.
Seychelles and HAL had signed a contract for two aircrafts on February 2012, and promised to deliver by 2014. However, HAL is handing over one of the aircrafts a year in advance.
General manager of HAL, Kanpur D Balasubramaniyam said at a press conference here on Thursday that HAL has manufactured a total of 117 Dornier DO-228 aircrafts till now, andpresented to regional air services, defence forces — Coast Guard, Navy and Air Force.
In 2013-14, HAL is planning to make 30 Dornier DO-228 aircrafts for Air Force, Navy and DRDO, and 10 aircrafts for South Africa, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Philippines, Thailand and Ecuador, he said. India has also presented two Dornier aircrafts to Mauritius.
The GM said since the central government is planning to connect small cities to metros and bigger cities, they have asked HAL to increase manufacturing of Dornier to be used as civil passenger aircrafts.
This highly fuel-efficient and low maintenance aircraft can fly for 5.5 hours upto 2,500 kilometres and needs only 750 meter space for runway.
Dornier 228 aircraft has two Garrett TPE Engines and fuel efficiency of 2,859 ltr with maximum speed at 428 km per hour.
HAL was given the licence by Dornier GmbH of Germany to manufacture Dornier as a light transport aircraft on November 29, 1983.
Two crew members and 15-19 passengers can sit in the aircraft.
The Dornier DO-228 aircraft can be used for air taxi, utility, corporate, aircrew training, apart from maritime surveillance, search & rescue and for observation & communication duties.
HAL will provide diesel auto pilot facility and glass cockpit aircrafts to Indian Air Force and foreign countries.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 24 Jan 2013 23:29

Prasan wrote:India to present Dornier aircraftto Seychelles

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 167440.cms

...In 2013-14, HAL is planning to make 30 Dornier DO-228 aircrafts for Air Force, Navy and DRDO, and 10 aircrafts for South Africa, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Philippines, Thailand and Ecuador, he said. India has also presented two Dornier aircrafts to Mauritius.
...

HAL will provide diesel auto pilot facility and glass cockpit aircrafts to Indian Air Force and foreign countries.

I wonder if these 10 aircraft that RUAG has contracted or HAL's own sales? Secondly, the glass cockpit is one supplied by RUAG or own development?

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 24 Jan 2013 23:48

Aditya G wrote: I wonder if these 10 aircraft that RUAG has contracted or HAL's own sales? Secondly, the glass cockpit is one supplied by RUAG or own development?

Bangladesh also has ordered couple of RUAG Dornier ...for naval duty...

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 25 Jan 2013 00:44

Nikhil T wrote:
srin wrote:
I sure hope so. If we are building a 2300t ship, it should be have some utility other than just anti-piracy, like being a missile boat ?

Just a comparison, at 2300t, it is actually heavier and lighter armed than Unkil's LCS USS Independence (all info from wiki - I may be off).
Exactly my thought. Though during times of war, it can easily get some Igla shoulder fired SAMs on board and provide additional cover to a flotilla of naval ships, since unlike normal OPVs this boat can sustain for over a month by itself.

I'm sure we're missing something here. A 2300 ton boat with 110 men on board, only for fending off pirates with a 76mm gun? Maybe tsarkar can shed some light here.

From the IN Webpage for the Sukanya Class -

"The Sukanya class patrol vessels are large, offshore patrol craft. Three lead ships were built by Korea Tacoma, now part of Hanjin Group.Vessels of the Sukanya class are named after notable women from Indian epics.The Sukanya class have large hulls, although they are lightly armed since they are utilized primarily for offshore patrol of India's exclusive economic zone. However, they are capable of being heavily armed and upgraded to light frigates should the need arise."

The Saryu "Saryu p 54 21 Jan 2013 " is also listed under this class.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Jan 2013 01:11

Philip wrote:One report said that the ship would have a secondary ASW role if need be,but one can't see any provision made for AS TTs or mortars,etc. No info about the capability of its sonars too.However,the main gun and 30mm gatlings would be sufficient for picking off pirate vessels and provide some degree of anti-missile defence.The basic aim has been to develop a cost0effective patrol vessel which can replace a frigate for more mundane duties and cheaper to operate.

The ASuW(?) capability comes form the provision to use the Ka-27 Helix.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 25 Jan 2013 01:21

Prasan wrote:India to present Dornier aircraftto Seychelles

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 167440.cms

Present? How generous of the government to use tax-payer money for its bouts of charity! Whatever happened to "sell" ?

Seychelles is playing the field with offering naval basing rights to everybody from the Chinese to the French, "gifts" aren't going to win any favor for India over the others.

koti · Post by **koti** » 25 Jan 2013 01:24

Maybe that is why they want to find out.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 25 Jan 2013 01:27

koti wrote:
Philip wrote:One report said that the ship would have a secondary ASW role if need be,but one can't see any provision made for AS TTs or mortars,etc. No info about the capability of its sonars too.However,the main gun and 30mm gatlings would be sufficient for picking off pirate vessels and provide some degree of anti-missile defence.The basic aim has been to develop a cost0effective patrol vessel which can replace a frigate for more mundane duties and cheaper to operate.
The ASuW(?) capability comes form the provision to use the Ka-27 Helix.

Like i mentioned in my previous post, the IN website lists that 'if the need arises it can be configured as a light frigate". This means that there are some provisions made for quickly fitting something which could qualify it as a light frigate. If you look at the superstructure, you will see the large gap between the front and back halves. Just thinking could it be to fit a 'plug' of Brahmos/ Klub missiles or torpedo launchers (ala the launchers on the Delhi class). Also it is a large hull ship giving it better seaworthiness than a standard patrol vessel. It could very well be used for 'sea denial' type operations or to intercept support ships trying to deliver material to a port. For this all it needs is a 'Helix' type helo equipped with a radar to give it a phenomenal early warning capability. It can then blockade a convoy of merchant ships easily during wartime. Also, it can be used to give cover support to a CBG as well.

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 25 Jan 2013 01:46

Brando wrote:
Prasan wrote:India to present Dornier aircraftto Seychelles

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 167440.cms
Present? How generous of the government to use tax-payer money for its bouts of charity! Whatever happened to "sell" ?

Seychelles is playing the field with offering naval basing rights to everybody from the Chinese to the French, "gifts" aren't going to win any favor for India over the others.

Any 'gift' will come with some small favours to the person gifting

. There is always a selfish motive. The couple of dorniers are not very expensive (compared to our other wasteful expenditures ala presidents visit to a safari!, garden development visit to Singapore, etc). There is always a hidden motive behind this and only the foreign affairs office will be able to help.

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Jan 2013 10:05

nikhil_p wrote: From the IN Webpage for the Sukanya Class -

"The Sukanya class patrol vessels are large, offshore patrol craft. Three lead ships were built by Korea Tacoma, now part of Hanjin Group.Vessels of the Sukanya class are named after notable women from Indian epics.The Sukanya class have large hulls, although they are lightly armed since they are utilized primarily for offshore patrol of India's exclusive economic zone. However, they are capable of being heavily armed and upgraded to light frigates should the need arise."

The Saryu "Saryu p 54 21 Jan 2013 " is also listed under this class.

Very interesting puzzle - the IN page really does say so.

Here's what's confusing:
As per Wiki, P54 was INS Sarayu (note the spelling) of Sukanya class and given to Sri Lanka. And INS Saryu is actually P57.

Now, IN site says INS Saryu is P54 and this is corroborated by photos which clearly say P54.

But doing simple google search shows there are indeed reports saying Saryu is P57.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jan 2013 21:26

IN has reused the pennant number as well as name for INS Saryu! Zimble onlee

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jan 2013 21:30

Brando wrote:
Prasan wrote:India to present Dornier aircraftto Seychelles

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 167440.cms
Present? How generous of the government to use tax-payer money for its bouts of charity! Whatever happened to "sell" ?

Seychelles is playing the field with offering naval basing rights to everybody from the Chinese to the French, "gifts" aren't going to win any favor for India over the others.

The article says

Seychelles and HAL had signed a contract for two aircrafts on February 2012, and promised to deliver by 2014. However, HAL is handing over one of the aircrafts a year in advance.

Not exactly a gift!

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 25 Jan 2013 21:47

K Mehta ji, in that case, why did the article use the words 'present' and 'gift'? I guess a contract was signed to assure them of the timeline and did not involve any cost negotiations. If there indeed was such a transaction, the article would have said that HAL is ready to 'deliver' the aircraft.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Jan 2013 21:55

atreya wrote:K Mehta ji, in that case, why did the article use the words 'present' and 'gift'? I guess a contract was signed to assure them of the timeline and did not involve any cost negotiations. If there indeed was such a transaction, the article would have said that HAL is ready to 'deliver' the aircraft.

It is a hunch - but it may since HAL does not have the export rights to the Do-228 which now belong to RUAG. So this is being called a "gift" and India will also get a "return gift" but there is no sale as such. Thats the reason why I asked the question on HAL exports being via RUAG or own sales.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 25 Jan 2013 23:46

IIRC HAL is the only company making Do-228s now and recently RuAG had a upgrade contract signed with HAL for five bladed props for Do-228. This was before the Seychelles contract so I guess the gift and present part is pure DDM, there is an "India looking down on the 3rd world island nations" kind of tone in the article. Probably written by some newbie reporter.
It is from PTI, draw your own conclusions.
BTW all these transfers such as SLNS Sarayu dont happen for free, there are payments done, as can be seen in DPSU accounts.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 26 Jan 2013 23:06

Russia arms Indian 'Sea giant' sub with multi-role cruise missiles