The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

[RamaY]

Varna - individual Vs social

In order to understand the importance and impact of Varna, one must study it at two different levels.

Individual level - Is the individual invoking a specific Varna in the capacity of Karta (Doer) or Bhokta (consumer/perceiver)? What difference does it make?

Social level - Is the individual invoking a specific varna in the capacity of Karta (Contributor to society) or Bhokta (consumer of society?

Social varna take much longer for an individual to get established and be accomplished.

When it comes to individual duties and experiences the individual Varna can change frequently, often within hours. An individual can move from studies to martial arts to business activities to enjoyment of material pleasures all in within few hours.

But to what purpose all these actions are being done translates them from individual varna to social varna. So when an individual lives chaturvarna everyday, his social varna remains same for much longer time, often running into years.

For example for an individual to prepare for, get selected and finally to accomplish something of recognition in a given varna (an academcian or businessman or soldier/politician or a social worker or engineer or artist etc) can run in to multiple years.

How frequently do we see people have the time and energy to change their social varna (the whole process of training, selection, accomplishment) within one life, especially when they simultaneously go thru all the Ashrama Dharmas.

When we observe the convergence of Ashrama Dharmas and Varna Dharmas, the real culmination point is limited to Brahmacharya and Grihasthasrama. This period is hardly 37-40 years (12-15 years of Brahmacharya/Education and 22-28 years of Grihasthasrama) around the age of 48-50. This is assuming a person enters into Vanaprastha as soon as his children complete their Brahmcharya and enter Grihasthasrama.

Moving to another Varna would require an individual to go thru another round of Brahmacharya (a requirement for real education), which is very difficult when one is going thru Gruhastu dharma.

Now link this with people like Viswamitra going for penance for 12-14 years leaving their families behind (in Viswamitra's case this is when Trisanku takes care of his family during a famine).

The Brahmacharya helps an individual to change his/her inner varna thru focused education (penance) which would change their conscious being. It is said that all cells in a human body are replaced every 7 years and it would take two such regenerations for the individual consciousness to disconnect from his previous temperament.

[Prem]

RajeshAji,

Harbans ji - what is the possibility of Sikhism taking the lead w.r.t Subcontinental Muslims and Budhists taking the lead to bring down Indian Christians?

Last time i ran the numbers ,Its a 200 Billion $ plus project. Need 10T$ economy and contingent of Half a Million Healthy well disciplined Men with 25 Year full time assignment. Minimum group of 5 fully trained , knowledgeable religious teachers , 10 musicians , 50 well Bodied Sewadar and good budget from building and other facilities like literature etc. Once the intelligence is awakened , natural evolution will take control of the development.

[RamaY]

^ please give some more details...

Swami Narayans And ISCON can start the ball rolling

[Prem]

^ please give some more details...

Swami Narayans And ISCON can start the ball rolling

One day Allah will make me self Suffcienct !! But lets start with Hindutvadi "hare".
Best source is Indian public , doing "charava" at Temples and Gurudwaras. Daram Pattars atn each be made pirority. Its a 40+Billion worth of transcations a year Yand increasing by the day.

[RajeshA]

I would like to better understand how spirituality is intertwined with the determination of one's eligibility for a certain work

The same example again - Should a Tamasic person be made a Ruler or a Dharmacharya?

So what would be the appropriate job for a Tamasic person?

If the role the individual plays in a institution is what decides one's Varna, then the question is why is it important for the rest of society to really care what one's Varna is?

No, it is the natural Varna (based on mix of Gunas) which suggests whether a role is suitable or not.

In other words it is the psychology of the person that decides one's Varna - not his contribution to society! Am I right?

Well here is what ShauryaT writes:

But you are not being clear whether varna is a derivative of guna and karma or the other way round!

My readings suggest: Karma and its nature (gunas) makeup a person's Varna. Each person has the "capacity" to be of any Varna (the Purusha Sukta interpretation). Howerver, it is actions alone that determine a person's Varna. How each society for its times decide to use these varnas and put to use or misuse is the responsibility of that generation.

Would these examinations be for determining somebody's Varna or for determining one's suitability for the job vacancy?

The aim would not be to determine Varna per se, it would be focussed on the job. But those 2 questions may be related.

I am of the opinion that all jobs require all Varnas (Guna Matrix) in the person.

Would somebody be running after the guy with a Varna certificate in hand?

No, the way I see it is that Varna would not play any official role ... it is a mental category to understand people's inclinations and capabilities.

Please see ShauryaT ji's position that actions alone decide on a person's Varna.

[brihaspati]

The modeling process that gave rise to the concept of "varna" should have been crystal clear in the Purusha shukta. It shows the standard and typical human modeling process - which starts with anthropomorphic projection of what the mind models the self/individual as - as a descriptive tool applied to larger, more complex bodies and phenomena.

The confusions and the debates over the interpretations of the concept of "varna" starts from this fundamental limitation of the modeling process as constrained and expressed by prevailing linguistic expressions that associate other pre-existing memes.

Insisting on the descriptive categories as final - creates the problems of further interpretation sof interpretations.

The observation that most dharmasutras maintain and build upon that initial model, is simply explained as a self-reinforcing equlibrium which has produced a power hierarchy of privilege. So that continuance of the status quo protects continued hold on power and privilege.

[ShauryaT]

Please see ShauryaT ji's position that actions alone decide on a person's Varna.

Not mine, Sri Krishna's.

[ShauryaT]

The modeling process that gave rise to the concept of "varna" should have been crystal clear in the Purusha shukta. It shows the standard and typical human modeling process - which starts with anthropomorphic projection of what the mind models the self/individual as - as a descriptive tool applied to larger, more complex bodies and phenomena.

The confusions and the debates over the interpretations of the concept of "varna" starts from this fundamental limitation of the modeling process as constrained and expressed by prevailing linguistic expressions that associate other pre-existing memes.

Insisting on the descriptive categories as final - creates the problems of further interpretation sof interpretations.

The observation that most dharmasutras maintain and build upon that initial model, is simply explained as a self-reinforcing equlibrium which has produced a power hierarchy of privilege. So that continuance of the status quo protects continued hold on power and privilege.

The purshush sukta too divides into four parts of a whole, clearly indicating multiple and differing capabilities and needs of the body. Just because someone has arms, does not mean the arms are the dominant organ of that person. It does not mean this person does not use arms at all. The idea of Varna is that people develop dominant tendencies due to a variety of reasons, including genetics. It is an unavoidable fact, best not ignored.

One is free to come up with further descriptive categories and its not that this was not done. It has been done to the point where a "Varna" order degenerated into a Jati order.

What our constituent assembly did was wave a hand to say, there is no societal order under the equality mantra, except through the organs of the state. In turn creating new groups from old. New elites. More rules based at least in theory, but new elites nevertheless.

Much as you may despise the concept of elites, they were always there and will be there. Hope no one here buys the communist chimera. The best one can do is to make these orders rules based, fungible and categorize in a manner that supports the objectives of an SD society. Varna orders can be remodeled suitably to achieve such a goal.

[ShauryaT]

ShauryaT ji,

So somehow what you are positing is that we all need to find out what is everybody's Varna (understood as a division of society). We can't leave somebody's Varna unassigned, as we need to know how to use a person in the society, and you have clearly emphasized your preference for introducing VarnAshram in society again.

Everyone is a Shudra by default. What your Varna is for you to determine. Brahmacharya phase does not need a Varna, for today. The higher varnas are there as qualifiers for higher responsibility for societal functions, is one way to look at it. Today, the only thing we value is money and power. Instead of focusing on Varnas, ask if you had the best governance under current orders and all your enemies vanquished, have you achieved a dharmic state of affairs? Leave the love-dovey cultural heritage et al out for that line of thought. Do you know how many even live anymore by Ashrama dharma? How many grihastas you know, who later in life take sanyas? Why not? Without renunciation there is no sanyas. Also, no Vanaprastha does not mean we have to go and live in forest! For all of the attempts by our swamis to focus on brahma gyaan - their efforts I feel are largely being wasted - even in the area where they have prided themselves to teach as the ultimate (revealing the nature of god) for human society. BTW: Sanyas is not an option, it is an obligation. Now, link this aspect to the detoriation of the family system and connect the links on how the changes in family affect a person's ability to take sanyas (one issue amongst many). How many married couples who are conscious about their duty to fulfill their purusharthas together? The more you think about this and then live it the more you will realize the uphill task we have at hand to restore SD life - not just high philosophy, disagreements notwithstanding. It is much easier for us to raise up our hands and submit to the srishti maya of the lord or of the GoI. One can also keep on questioning on why this, why that endlessly. Clarity is attained, when one submits to the words of our shrutis, learns it from gurus and most important lives it and meditates upon it.

[brihaspati]

The modeling process that gave rise to the concept of "varna" should have been crystal clear in the Purusha shukta. It shows the standard and typical human modeling process - which starts with anthropomorphic projection of what the mind models the self/individual as - as a descriptive tool applied to larger, more complex bodies and phenomena.

The confusions and the debates over the interpretations of the concept of "varna" starts from this fundamental limitation of the modeling process as constrained and expressed by prevailing linguistic expressions that associate other pre-existing memes.

Insisting on the descriptive categories as final - creates the problems of further interpretation sof interpretations.

The observation that most dharmasutras maintain and build upon that initial model, is simply explained as a self-reinforcing equlibrium which has produced a power hierarchy of privilege. So that continuance of the status quo protects continued hold on power and privilege.

The purshush sukta too divides into four parts of a whole, clearly indicating multiple and differing capabilities and needs of the body. Just because someone has arms, does not mean the arms are the dominant organ of that person. It does not mean this person does not use arms at all. The idea of Varna is that people develop dominant tendencies due to a variety of reasons, including genetics. It is an unavoidable fact, best not ignored.

Actually, the more genetics research is progressing, we are discovering that fewer and fewer actual differences between the genetic sequence of individuals can be identified than we had earlier liked to believe. The differences between individuals as socially and intellectually functioning human beings - need not be explainable by genetic differences alone. Ironically, a large portion of the now-seen genetic differences could partly be a result of random mutations, but more significantly could have been also accelerated by much more freer "mixing" of the sexes where it was allowed, across any delightful distinctive endogamous categories.

Actually my reason for pointing out the start of the problem with the Purusha sukta was slightly different from the way you interpreted it. I said that the very act of using language to develop an anthropomorphic model of a more complex phenomenon - itself brings in certain constraints leading to future further aberrations.

The very fact that the individual human model of body and self had to be used - itself imposes the first constraint on the attempted social-model. The target audience will immediately visualize the human body and its functioning - and extend their own individual experience of how their and other's bodies function - and reason - "sure, we all have arms - but we also use other limbs, and the hand does not dominate other limbs". But another who lost his more active arm in a hunting accident, sees how he is no longer as esteemed in his community for he can hunt no more, or has other difficulties in daily life, will see the arm as the dominating organ. Even more naturally, since they both have seen that people in their community have survived even after losing a leg or an arm, but not after losing the head - by decapitation or the skull bashed in - might decide the head to be the overall dominant one.

Then will start a scramble to position oneself as the "head" of the society, and nice cozy words about how other limbs are necessary too - no one is saying they are unimportant - but I/we the "head" are the most important.

Its not just a concept or a model - the illustration used brings up its own problems because the illustration itself is forced to use analogy to other real experiences of the target audience. These other real life experiences in the audience, add layers of their own connotations, imagery, properties and restrictions -paving the way for future delusions.

Aberrations like communism are a mirror reflection of the abusive, and self-interested manipulations by so-called elite as manifested in the by-descent, exclusive, hardening of the "varna" meme. Communism was, and is never anything about equality. The fundamental doctrine of communism [well the term is quite stretchable] was about the need and necessity for state as an instrument of coercion by one "class" against "others". Be very clear about this - Marx and Lenin, are both categorically clear about this. They are not against repression by one class against another as represented by the state system : only they want the so-called abstract "proletariat" class to be the dominant one. Lenin was more explicit - he pointed out according to his logic as to why even the "proletariat" could not be entirely trusted with leading to the overthrow of the "other" classes in state power/dominance [left to them the workers are more likely to fall under the bad bad influence of "economism"] and hence the state power must be weilded by a small elite class of "vanguard of the proletariat == the party". Of course both Marx and Lenin had no doubts whatsoever about their natural rights to belong to these leading strata.

There is perhaps more to our Naxal "dadas/didis" coming overwhelmingly at the leading levels -from solid "forward caste" Hindu origins than mere elite and Macaulayite educational anomie. In fact historian DN Jha (a Maithili Brahmin) or a Jawaharlal Nehru (a Kashmiri Brahmin) might simply be doing an adaptive trick of the "leading class" strategy : apply the principle that one particular class is slated to rule all else, impose what it thinks is best on all else, and keep that right of predominance within the "family" so to speak - whether by birth or by ideological adoption of similarly minded students/disciples.

I will repeat : the aberrations and abominations we see in our current age - comes from the overemphasis on specialization in all aspects of life and living. We have forgot the importance of all round development and balance. Overemphasis on one guna, one purushartha, insistence on supreme importance of specializing on one aspect of life (whether by action or otherwise) that can be used to distinctly categorize humans for life or for extended periods of time. Thus communists insist on the "party's" right to regulate all else that moves, some insist that "right" to regulate others or be regulated comes from one's "varna", and so on.

What our constituent assembly did was wave a hand to say, there is no societal order under the equality mantra, except through the organs of the state. In turn creating new groups from old. New elites. More rules based at least in theory, but new elites nevertheless.

Much as you may despise the concept of elites, they were always there and will be there. Hope no one here buys the communist chimera. The best one can do is to make these orders rules based, fungible and categorize in a manner that supports the objectives of an SD society. Varna orders can be remodeled suitably to achieve such a goal.

The Constituent Assembly actually did nothing where real equality would have had a fighting chance. They recognized special identities, special categories and sub-categories. Every distinction that is created artificially among humans will be sought to be made permanent, enhanced, sharpened - if that category turns out to be advantageous in terms of gains, of power, esteem, money, privileges.

Communists - as I suggested - might actually derive their subconscious drive from that very elitist delusion covering a merely opportunistic pushing of special claims to lord it over others by some claimed right that is beyond challenge and competition from others. Be it the politibureau membership or membership in a divine clan or class or varna by birth.

[RamaY]

Everyone is a Shudra by default!

I agree.

I think this can be added in our constitution and mentioned that everyone will have equal opportunity to become what Varna they want after 12 years of Basic education, which will be their social responsibility.

I am working on my version of Bharatiya Constitution (based on the preamble I posted in this thread). Will add this article.

Since everyone is a Shudra till they reach 18 years, there will/cannot be any affirmative action based on birth or otherwise.

Govt services will be grouped by Chatur Varnas and will have necessary selection criteria. Services of same Varna can and will have different levels of education and qualification criteria based on the role.

Note to self: when such a society is developed, do a statistical study of marriage patterns.

[Pranav]

So what would be the appropriate job for a Tamasic person?

A Tamasic person should work under the supervision of more evolved individuals. He could contribute through physical or routine mental labour. His dominant goal in life (Purushartha) is sensual fulfillment (Kama), though he may have other goals also. He should not be given a position in which he can do a lot of damage to himself and others.

In other words it is the psychology of the person that decides one's Varna - not his contribution to society! Am I right?

You could say that. The Varna would be based on inherent Gunas and would suggest a suitable mode of contribution to society.

I am of the opinion that all jobs require all Varnas (Guna Matrix) in the person.

Perhaps one could do some thought experiments on the basis of realistic examples.

Please see ShauryaT ji's position that actions alone decide on a person's Varna.

I think this is what is being referred to?
cātur-varṇyaḿ mayā sṛṣṭaḿ
guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ

I would interpret the word Karma here to mean (1) the motivations that drive an individual (2) how an individual can best contribute to society.

Clearly a debauched individual conducting Pujas does not become a Brahmana.

[ShauryaT]

Pranav ji: You are not accepting the scripture the way it is. There are no two definitions for Karma or Gunas. Karma are your works. Gunas are resident in your body a part of prakriti. The ONLY way for the body to express these gunas is through works, i.e: your Karmas. As you do these works/karmas, the nature of the works are revealed. IOW: The gunas are revealed.

[Pranav]

The modeling process that gave rise to the concept of "varna" should have been crystal clear in the Purusha shukta. It shows the standard and typical human modeling process - which starts with anthropomorphic projection of what the mind models the self/individual as - as a descriptive tool applied to larger, more complex bodies and phenomena.

The confusions and the debates over the interpretations of the concept of "varna" starts from this fundamental limitation of the modeling process as constrained and expressed by prevailing linguistic expressions that associate other pre-existing memes.

Insisting on the descriptive categories as final - creates the problems of further interpretation sof interpretations.

The observation that most dharmasutras maintain and build upon that initial model, is simply explained as a self-reinforcing equlibrium which has produced a power hierarchy of privilege. So that continuance of the status quo protects continued hold on power and privilege.

One should first properly understand the model. Having done that one should be open to critiques of the model. That is the way science develops. If one becomes ossified and reacts to criticism by lashing out angrily then clearly that is downhill path.

[Pranav]

Pranav ji: You are not accepting the scripture the way it is. There are no two definitions for Karma or Gunas. Karma are your works. Gunas are resident in your body a part of prakriti. The ONLY way for the body to express these gunas is through works, i.e: your Karmas. As you do these works/karmas, the nature of the works are revealed. IOW: The gunas are revealed.

Well then it is not the external actions that are important. Thoughts are also mental actions. So an individual's deeper motivations, which manifest through his thought processes, are what count.

I hope nobody will suggest that a debauched individual conducting Pujas is a Brahmana.

Secondly, everything, scripture or otherwise, is open to criticism.

[brihaspati]

Is "his creation" (maya srastam) of "catur varna" part of "dharma"? or outside of "dharma"? is his "creation" part of himself or outside himself? Decide carefully - for in the end he asks you to abandon/reject "sarvan dharman" and only remember/take recourse to him. Either way - quoting BG to defend such theses could be fatal.

[Pranav]

Is "his creation" (maya srastam) of "catur varna" part of "dharma"? or outside of "dharma"? is his "creation" part of himself or outside himself? Decide carefully - for in the end he asks you to abandon/reject "sarvan dharman" and only remember/take recourse to him. Either way - quoting BG to defend such theses could be fatal.

When one reaches a state of Self-realization one realizes that the entire Srishti is Maya. But then even Maya is governed by an underlying order. You could say that Varna is an aspect of this order, and has its relevance until Self-realization is attained.

[ShauryaT]

Pranav ji: You are not accepting the scripture the way it is. There are no two definitions for Karma or Gunas. Karma are your works. Gunas are resident in your body a part of prakriti. The ONLY way for the body to express these gunas is through works, i.e: your Karmas. As you do these works/karmas, the nature of the works are revealed. IOW: The gunas are revealed.

Well then it is not the external actions that are important. Thoughts are also mental actions. So an individual's deeper motivations, which manifest through his thought processes, are what count.

I hope nobody will suggest that a debauched individual conducting Pujas is a Brahmana.

Secondly, everything, scripture or otherwise, is open to criticism.

Give me a brahmana with debauched thoughts NEVER expressed and I will worship and wash his feet till the day these debauched thoughts remain ONLY that and NOTHING else. No one hears it, sees it, feels it, senses it. Give me such a debauched brahmana. The moment any of these thoughts are expressed in any manny, they become works. One these works are known, who will give right to this Brahmana to conduct Pujas? Only a weak and wretched society.

One can certainly question scripture. I highly encourage it. Spiritual life indeeds starts with questions. The upanishads is nothing but a series of questions.

[Pranav]

I will worship and wash his feet till the day these debauched thoughts remain ONLY that and NOTHING else.

Hmm ... so you are perfectly happy with a "Brahmana" who is externally chanting Mantras but inwardly fantasizing about all manner of sensual indulgence? Well each to his own I guess.

[ShauryaT]

Is "his creation" (maya srastam) of "catur varna" part of "dharma"? or outside of "dharma"? is his "creation" part of himself or outside himself? Decide carefully - for in the end he asks you to abandon/reject "sarvan dharman" and only remember/take recourse to him. Either way - quoting BG to defend such theses could be fatal.

Many already use BG to try to confuse, why are you contributing to it? Chapter 18, is not meant as a negation of all the other chapters! Dharma at the end of the day upholds Brahman. It upholds Ritam, Satyam and Yagnam. Maya Srishtam like Prakriti belongs to Ishwara. This creation / creator debate is resolved for me, in the simple practice of worship the creation as if you are worshipping the creator.

[member_22872]

Got an article in the mail, appears this is only gist, I can upload the paper if anyone is interested:

And a small gist is given below

The Problem of False Hindu Pride
15
The Aryan controversy has often dominated the intellectual discourse on Indian history, and the Ram
Temple at Ayodhya has become the nexus for Hindu triumphalism on the ground. These two foci have
consumed the resources of many Hindus, and are unfortunately seen as the defining issues of the day.
Those swept by these currents seem ideologically inbred, and live in intellectual enclaves and cocoons.
They seem only superficially aware of many of the issues discussed in this essay, and even less engaged in
actually doing something effective about them.
Narrow-minded Definitions of Hinduism:
The starting point for this mindset seems to be a very orthodox definition of Hinduism:
• It is assumed to be Vedic, when in fact, many Hindus follows non Vedic traditions, such as
Shakta/Goddess, Tantra, Kashmir Shaivism and other non Vedic traditions whose founders were
specifically anti or at least non Vedic.
• Hinduism is considered to be universal and yet also contingent upon uniquely Indian culture. This has
sometimes turned into an anti-modernity stance. Furthermore, there is opposition to English educated
Indians, when they should be catering specifically to this rapidly expanding market segment. Some
have taken Hinduism to mean anti-secularism, when in fact, they should be explaining that secularism
is already contained in the dharmic - as the separation of brahmin and kshatriya jobs and as the
mandate to respect others svadharma - and that modern Indian secularism has misinterpreted it into
a dangerous zero sum game.
• This movement has dislocated itself from the 20 million American neo-Hindus who are sincerely
engaged in yoga and related practices, and identify with Hindu ideas at various levels of affinity.
Likewise, they have also become alienated from the Indian American youth (and I am told also the
Westernized youth in India) who are very modern, socially progressive, and who see the Hindu
orthodoxy as grumpy and angry old men from a bygone era.
• Forced homogenization is counter to the spirit and ethos of dharma and its diverse pluralistic history.
There is a dangerous tendency of reducing Hinduism into another monotheism built on Ram s
history and the sacred geography of Ayodhya.
Overemphasis upon Ritualism/Astrology:
Temple ritualism often appears like voodoo to the youth, who therefore go to temples infrequently.
Astrology has been introduced in India s higher education as the silver bullet, when there are so many
better entry points via the Indian Classics. One is left wondering why the following dimensions are
excluded in most US temples, thereby missing out on major opportunities:
• Raja Yoga: Why are temples not the yoga centers of American society, bringing a very uniquely
Indic contribution to the neighborhood? Had this been part of the long term vision, many of the
nearly 10,000 yoga center in USA would have been in the temples, giving them a different aura of
relevance and quality.
• Karma Yoga: Why are Hindu organizations not at the forefront of social contributions to
American society, in the same manner as one finds from Jewish and Christian charities? Why is
the typical Hindu temple not a community center known for its neighborhood outreach programs?
• Jnana Yoga: Why are Hindu scholars not explicitly at the vanguard of the new thinking on the
variety of disciplines listed at the beginning of this essay, where there in considerable scope for
positive Indic contributions — such as psychology, mental health, philosophy, social ethics, etc.?
16
Neither the temple pujaris/purohits nor their management are worried about this myopia and cocoon
mentality. The one-liner bumper sticker fast-food of ritualism and superficial talk has failed to impress
the next generation.
Meanwhile, the user friendly dharma for young global audiences seems to have been separated from its
origins and taken over by the new age.
Lack of Institutional Quality:
There is no equivalent of a seminary where temple priests would receive continued education to be able
to compete against their Christian counterparts. How many temple priests are able to explain the religion
and its rituals in meaningful ways to today s modern clientele, or debate at local interfaith events, or be
interviewed by local TV or press, or be able to speak at a local school multicultural event? Why have the
temple committees replicated the village scene from India, entirely out of context for the US?
There is also a dire shortage of competent scholars to research and debate academic scholars in the
discipline. The scholars most often relied upon by Hindu nationalists have not had the benefit of peer
reviews for healthy criticism and quality control. Too often, hyper exaggerated claims are bombastically
announced amidst cheering audiences who are starved for legitimacy, and thereby accept anything and
everything positive presented to them.
Institutions should not be new to Indic culture, for there existed world class viharas (institutions) in
classical times. Somehow, the revival of Hinduism has focused on the wrong priorities.
As a consequence of the lack of adequate institutions, there has not been any respectable constructive
theology or constructive sociology in the manner described earlier in this essay. The focus has been on
going back to some golden era, even though:
• That golden era probably supported a population of under 50 million people, and modern
technology is necessary to support a billion people today;
• To survive in a competitive climate, one must learn about competitors and keep up with them,
which cannot be achieved by the prevailing introverted mindset;
• The youth have rejected the orthodox lifestyle and they must be heard.
Finally, there is no think tank where serious scholars research and debate issues free from politics and
immediate pressures.
Misplaced Heroism:
This is the syndrome of over optimism, wishful thinking, and refusal to do the grunt work of scholarship to
build one s case.
For instance, when planning a review of school textbooks, I was pre-empted by a very confident
community leader that this was already taken care of, on the basis that his organization had stated this
goal in its brochure years ago. Given that he was a retired school superintendent from New Jersey, one
would expect him to be well positioned to achieve this claim. However, upon pushing him to produce a
draft of any of his textbook reviews, he backed out of his claims, by saying that he intended to do this
very soon. A couple of years have passed, and he has not yet produced any textbook critique. Recently, he
called for a meeting of some random persons to get the process started. This type of achievement claim
forestalls genuine mobilization. Meanwhile, pictures of such persons in White House visits are published as
accomplishments of the ego.
An Indian economics professor, upon hearing my talk about the need to study the economic drain from
India during colonial times, so as to assess its impact upon historical growth rates of various civilizations,
instantly claimed that he had this study ready to go — reciting his academic credentials of several decades
17
in economics. But upon closer cross-examination, it was to be just another typical quick-and-dirty piece of
rhetoric. When a detailed work plan was asked for, and items of research to be found in archives were to be
discussed, his attitude was: this is too much unnecessary work; we don t need to work so hard. Basically,
this attitude is one of trivializing what needs to be done. At the same time, whenever there is some
dignitary visiting from India, this lot is right up there being introduced as community leaders.
Another kind of superficiality is illustrated in the article posted at:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=215622 It contains the goody-goody things happening to
Hinduism in America, a positive story, but without scratching beneath the surface. For instance, it fails to
mention that the hoopla about so many temples in USA pertains mainly to immigrant Indians who got their
traditional grounding while growing up in India. These temples have not attracted many young Indian
Americans who are raised in the US, especially after the age when they leave home for college. No
tradition survives if it fails to pass its values and practices on to the next generation. For a better analysis of
the next generation, the journalist would have had to look at the pathetic situation in many American
colleges concerning Indic traditions. The author seems ignorant about the issue of textbook biases and
media portrayal. He does not compare Indic traditions in USA with other minority religions of the US so as
to gain a comparative perspective. This article is typical of the superficial coverage back in India, to make
people feel happy. It feeds the false pride of Hindu leaders who can claim great accomplishments.
My final category of misplaced heroism is of those who mess up presenting even a well documented case,
by being more interested in gaining personal mileage than in pursuing a systematic process to bring about
results. Too many such loud voices get to the front of the crowd, craving to be seen and heard as leaders,
but without doing the prerequisite homework to know enough. Needless to say, these ill-conceived
rejoinders backfire due to lack of critical thinking and scholarship expertise.



Best Regards
Akshay

[RajeshA]

Every Dharma shastra then goes on to ratify in large measure this division of society, unambiguously.

So what about the famous verse from shastra that says that in Kali Yuga everyone is born Shudra?

जन्मना जायते शूद्रः. संस्कारात् द्विजं उच्यते |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाति ब्राह्मणः| स्कंदपुराण ६.२३९.३१

Everyone is Shudra by birth. With Sanskaras (the system of 16 sanskaras in dharma) makes a person "Dvija". Mastering Vedas (knowledge) makes one "Vipra". One becomes a "Brahmana" as he attains "Brahma-Jnana".

Carl ji,

How many Sanskaras would one need to become Dvija? One can't speak of all 16 because the 16th Sanskara, the Antim Sanskara catapults the Atma further on in its voyage!

[Agnimitra]

^^ Great question RajeshA ji!

[RajeshA]

Carl ji,

could one be speaking of Sanskaras as in Sanskriti? That is Sanskaras to make one cultured?

[Agnimitra]

^^ RajeshA ji, that's how I would understand it. The "16 samskaras" part was Atri ji's tanslation. Maybe what he meant was that one who follows a life structured by the 16 cardinal samskaras, he is dwija.

[Atri]

So what about the famous verse from shastra that says that in Kali Yuga everyone is born Shudra?

जन्मना जायते शूद्रः. संस्कारात् द्विजं उच्यते |
वेद-पाठात् भवेत् विप्रः ब्रह्म जानाति ब्राह्मणः| स्कंदपुराण ६.२३९.३१

Everyone is Shudra by birth. With Sanskaras (the system of 16 sanskaras in dharma) makes a person "Dvija". Mastering Vedas (knowledge) makes one "Vipra". One becomes a "Brahmana" as he attains "Brahma-Jnana".

Carl ji,

How many Sanskaras would one need to become Dvija? One can't speak of all 16 because the 16th Sanskara, the Antim Sanskara catapults the Atma further on in its voyage!

Minimum Two. Upanayana and samavartana. Modern day equivalents are admission into school and formal completion of education. After samavartana (graduation), person is considered dvija. In upanayana, guru places the disciple in his womb. On samavartan, he is born again. Meanwhile he grows in guru's womb (a secure place) nourished by knowledge.


This is what is meant by dvija. The verses from vedas mean this sentiment.

[Agnimitra]

In upanayana, guru places the disciple in his womb. On samavartan, he is born again.

Very interesting. Psychologically, discovery of one's basic purpose (varna) comes after a return to the womb and, coming back up the timeline, after "lifting" of the birth memory.

[RajeshA]

Atri garu,

does the word dvija occur someplace again outside this verse?

[Atri]

Dvija is the word present everywhere. Check my blog post about rescuing varna from jaati.. In english they use brahmin as synonym of dvija everywhere thus making it appear that caste brahmins alone were privileged since ancient times. Yes during later maratha (after 1772) times and EIC times brahmins were causing major pain in musharrafs of many other castes which is when it appeared that only brahmins were dvijas although this started when gurukulas and ashrama network was disrupted during Islamic times. But this is not the case since ancient times.

One who finished his formal education was privileged. Its like graduate's constituency in rajyasabha these days.

This brings us to the dreaded question - is universal franchise good thing or bad? Scriptures talk most about heeding to opinions of dvijas the most in matters of judiciary, administration, state, macrofinance and mokshamarga matters. There are three chambers of public participation in hindu polity -
Sabha and samiti which originated from earlier system of Vidatha. Many smriti makers heeded that opinion of samiti (committee of experts) which were dvijas be valued more over popular opinion.

IMO, in current times and place, universal franchise is essential. In pre english and islamic days, almost everyone was given basic education - local language, basic maths, ramayana and MBh (in local language), and then technical apprenticeship started for shudras. Those going for vaishya, kshatriya and purohita jobs (includes administerial jobs) were given the two samskars. So average raamu in india then was much more educated than average raamu today.

As i said, varnashrama is a "handle with care" package. It requires much more sophisticated and educated society than we currently possess. In my next birth or may be one after that I will be talking and listening about thinking of implementing it after space-time correction to your next versions. This life it isn't possible saars.

[RajeshA]

Atri garu,

I often do read your blog posts. Thank you for your insights.

[brihaspati]

dvija was a process. Literally - born/created twice. As Atriji points out, the upanayana starts it and samavartana completes it. The idea has been subconsciously retained in naming the graduation ceremeony in several uni's in desh.

This reduced to "Brahmin" onlee in a specific historical situation, where two things had happened simultaneously : Islamic politico-military aggression had disrupted normal pre-Islamic Indic public educational processes (Many sultans specifically targeted the educational process under Mullah urging and the peaceful Sufi-Mullahs too did their own bit of swordsmanship - of course within eyeshot and earshot of more organized Islamic armies to destroy such institutions), and education could remain feasible only within the family-clan setting of those who had already monopolized the gurudom in pre-Islamic times.

Moreover, there is ample evidence - that the Islamic rulers often - out of shrewd political sense, enlisted some "Brahmins" for administrative and other roles. Some of these brahmins actually played destructive military roles towards Hindu temples or establishments.

It is not yet researched as to the role played by deliberate policies of the sultanate and the Mughals to promote "Brahmin" as a special superior caste marker, in a reflective hierarchical copy of their own world-view. On the other hand they might have simply enhanced or intensified an pre-existing trend.

The dvija-karana is an important symbolic process, which should be revived for all Hindu's. Not everyone will reach the supposed destination, but they should all be set the endgoal. We cannot pre-judge abilities and say someone should not even be shown the end-goal because he/she is not fit for it - by origins/birth/status of where he/she has been born into. Some of the deviations that have crept into the Hindu - for example regarding various excuses and uses of so-called claims of past-karma related future-birth in degrading, non-privileged, penalty-situations - probably come from the Buddhist delusions.

[ShauryaT]

The dvija-karana is an important symbolic process, which should be revived for all Hindu's Indians.

[brihaspati]

^^^Acknowledging the importance of publicly visible symbols and symbolic acts, I did propose long ago that at least upanayana should be extended to everyone, for the moment, within the "Hindu". Formally, even the ritual purity and sanctity expected classically - should not be that difficult for kids (or adults coming into fold afresh), including the recitation of gayatri.

But what you imply by crossing out "Hindu", is for a long future time. When you will already have state power. Its not perhaps wise to declare the intent right now.

[RamaY]

Bji

This weekend edition in Andhrajyothy paper has an article about an Indic Vidyalaya in the model we envisioned.

I agree with you on the upanayana Samskara. I am going to talk to some people I know and see if they think doing upanayana Samskara to all students in their school and given them Gayatri mantropadesa is feasible.

I am also going to check if a couple of young priests can be sent for a yoga teacher training and start yoga classes in temple premises in evenings for kids.

[brihaspati]

Great news. A step forward.

[RamaY]

I go to yoga classes in massa. Earlier I was not sure of the method and didn't like the concept of mass yoga. But once I started going there, I love the concept.

Anyways the point I want to make is the international yoga movement is spreading Hindu thought to all corners of the world, slowly but surely. 5-10 years ago the yoga was more about asanas. Past five years I have seen the focus moving to pranayaama and recent developments start introducing Hindu Gods, symbolism and mantra sadhana to the wide world.

Sooner than later we will see many yogis having their ista-devatas in their living rooms in asupecious corners.

Coming to Bharat, we need to go back to basics. The Hindu resurgence will and shall come in phases.

1/ The first phase is economic, internal security - only good governance can ensure this. This is where the nationalistic political parties start.

2/ second phase is to achieve cultural and identity security, that Hindus are proud of their culture and identity. The is where the political parties stop.

3/ third phase is to introduce Indic education nation wide for all Bharatiyas irrespective of religion. This should be a national agitation of its own trajectory and can take political help.

4/ fourth phase is to reintroduce Yoga, Tapas, Spirituality to masses. This may include symbolism and rituals but not necessary constraint. This is where the Hindu organizations should start working on.

5/ Bharat declares its emergence on world stage. This is when he periphery nations will merge into Bharatamata.

I strongly recommend all Bharatiya nationalist NRIs to return to Bharat as soon their offspring complete education and start their own lives. This will be a 45-55 age group. And they adopt a village and contribute to 3rd and 4th stages.

[akashganga]

I go to yoga classes in massa. Earlier I was not sure of the method and didn't like the concept of mass yoga. But once I started going there, I love the concept.

Anyways the point I want to make is the international yoga movement is spreading Hindu thought to all corners of the world, slowly but surely. 5-10 years ago the yoga was more about asanas. Past five years I have seen the focus moving to pranayaama and recent developments start introducing Hindu Gods, symbolism and mantra sadhana to the wide world.

Sooner than later we will see many yogis having their ista-devatas in their living rooms in asupecious corners.

Coming to Bharat, we need to go back to basics. The Hindu resurgence will and shall come in phases.

1/ The first phase is economic, internal security - only good governance can ensure this. This is where the nationalistic political parties start.

2/ second phase is to achieve cultural and identity security, that Hindus are proud of their culture and identity. The is where the political parties stop.

3/ third phase is to introduce Indic education nation wide for all Bharatiyas irrespective of religion. This should be a national agitation of its own trajectory and can take political help.

4/ fourth phase is to reintroduce Yoga, Tapas, Spirituality to masses. This may include symbolism and rituals but not necessary constraint. This is where the Hindu organizations should start working on.

5/ Bharat declares its emergence on world stage. This is when he periphery nations will merge into Bharatamata.
ab
I strongly recommend all Bharatiya nationalist NRIs to return to Bharat as soon their offspring complete education and start their own lives. This will be a 45-55 age group. And they adopt a village and contribute to 3rd and 4th stages.

Yoga is extremely extremely popular in the USA among western population. In major cities like NY, SFO, LA, etc every street has a yoga studio. Go to any small town in the US you will find yoga studio. Many of them teach mysore style ashtanga yoga as popularized by Sri Pattabhi Jois. They chant sanskrit vedic manthras and perform intense vinyasa flow yoga. In many places they also do Bhakti yoga which is kirtan chants call and response. Thanks to more than a century of yoga and budhdhism export to the west more westerners believe in hindu karma/reincarnation than abrahamic belief of one life permanent hell/heaven.

[ShauryaT]

IMO, in current times and place, universal franchise is essential.

Universal franchise is an oversold concept, entirely ineffective on its own. Any "system" works on the strength of the institutions it builds and supports. Instead of a bottoms up approach to the concept, we made it a top down approach. Until 73/74th Gram Sabha/Nagar Palika amendments, by PVNR the third tier of governance was not even recognized. Fianancial authority is still withheld from this layer as we do not have an overall system with checks and balances to make the system accountable to the lowest levels. Because we have not thought through and imported the "system" universal franchise is sold to us as some type of "freedom" giving mantra from "feudal" and "caste" oppressions and a way to progress and modernity. Universal Franchise works best at the local level. As one goes up the order, its value exercised in the same way as the local level diminishes. If universal franchise is to be effective in the country as a tool of governance then it has to be made to work at local levels. Ask the voters only question that they can answer, JP Narayan used to say. What escapes me however is "why" was this issue the defining issue for someone like JLN. It is one more of his hair brained romanticisms with high ideals that have little to do with realities or a diagnosis of issues. My issues stems for romanticizing the concept. For all practical purposes, India is not a "functioning" democracy, 1987 anti-defection bill effectively made our MP's and MLA's hired watchmen (using Modi's term). Universal franchise is only a means to end but if the entire system is not through then you will just sail with the wind, as evidenced in our polity.

[brihaspati]

^^^JLN and the Brits who supported him, saw the greatest threat in a separate "Hindu" identity, which was beyond the imperialist Abrahamic theology they understood [even Islamism was "better" as seen in 19th-20th century Raj promotion of Islamism as a "culture" for India]. If the common portion of the interests of JLN and his friends at Whitehall had to be satisfied - that is essentially a dynastic system which will never entirely identify with the "majority" and therefore be amenable to external manipulation - no competing and independent-of-the-west ideological basis of the nation could be allowed. Universal franchise served to remove the "Hindu" identity from politics while explicitly the major competing and beloved "communities" were politically preserved by protecting their distinction claims, while the "Hindu" was not given a corresponding political space.

Universal franchise was not again an honest intent to start with. The basic election based on which the Congress came to be selected for transfer of power was essentially representing at most 30% of the total adult population. Average polling percentage was around 50%, and hence by some estimates only around 17% of total adults actually voted Congress to pre-eminence. Even in the very first post independence elections INC managed roughly 45% of total polled which has since then been in general on a gradual decline except with certain obvious and known historical episodes of temporary rise. That universal franchise or franchise and representation was in general not pursued with the aim of "empowerment for the people" but rather continuance of power of a selected oligarchy based around a formal courtiership of dynastic descent is indicated in how electoral laws were continuously manipulated.

After the very first general elections it was seen that the system of dual constituency [SC/ST] harmed INC candidates, and hence they were abolished - in spite of the overtly virulent machinations and rhetoric in favour of "reservations".

[ShauryaT]

I will repeat : the aberrations and abominations we see in our current age - comes from the overemphasis on specialization in all aspects of life and living. We have forgot the importance of all round development and balance. Overemphasis on one guna, one purushartha, insistence on supreme importance of specializing on one aspect of life (whether by action or otherwise) that can be used to distinctly categorize humans for life or for extended periods of time. Thus communists insist on the "party's" right to regulate all else that moves, some insist that "right" to regulate others or be regulated comes from one's "varna", and so on.

B ji: I hear you and your skepticism is well warranted. However a couple of points. The quintessential difference between other philosophical systems and ours is the unique route of explaining the outer world by looking within. The purusha sukta is an example of the same. These methods are the basis of adhaytmik vidya. Power, Knowledge and wealth need regulation. It is the essence of the Varna system. Devi Durga, Sarasvati and Lakshmi symbolize the same. Our civilization can throw away this leaning at its own peril.