Indian Naval Discussion

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 08 Mar 2013 13:50

Austin wrote: Beyond business of selling toys the key factor remains Geo-Strategic alliance and commonality of interest that pursues them , The West including the US has banned export of Weapons to China for a long time which means the only option for them is via Russia ( Recently China leader thanked Russia for helping them developed its armed forces when none did ).

Both Russia and China shares a common interest in preventing NATO expansion ( hence SCO ) and US ABM program meant to degrade Strategic offensive capability for both nations in the guise of deterring Noko or Iran.

US clear desire to contain China along with its allies by moving 60 % of its Fleet to Pacific has been a very clear signal on US intention in the region , Russia too has fleet in pacific and it would feel the impact.

Selling selective Weapons in export model would help China not to get too off balanced and at the same time helps Russia meet its strategic goal of making sure US does not get too powerful in the region.

Nations have long memory and if Russia decides to instead confront china with which it shares long border then in a decade it will become a powerful enemy , if China has to build its armed forces with weapons it cannot match with west then the Russians would be happy that it build using its Weapon for obvious reason.

What you said is true but there is no sign this is the case now. Honestly, China spends $119B (which many people think it is under reported) and Russia spends $71B in military expenditures in 2012. How long do you think it will take China to exceed Russia in almost every area?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2013 13:59

ashi wrote:What you said is true but there is no sign this is the case now. Honestly, China spends $119B (which many people think it is under reported) and Russia spends $71B in military expenditures in 2012. How long do you think it will take China to exceed Russia in almost every area?

Money is not the only factor that makes a nation compete technologically , if that were to be the case then no one could have competed with the US in defence equipment since it out spends the top 10 players even today , Even Europe and Russian have competitive products like US and even out smart them in many cases even though their defence spending might be 1/3 of what US has been spending. ( China spending more than Europe and Russia since a decade still cant )

Its the intellectual and industrial capability of the nation that matters more important than money and the Russians have plenty and so do Europeans and they will continue to build Weapon System that can remain competitive with the best , irrespective if China manages to catch up or remain behind.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2013 14:02

how much does sweden spend on defence? nothing compared to Cheen.
yet they still come up with products like the CV90, Archer, Gripen, FH77B05 ...

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Mar 2013 14:05

Singha wrote:the Su35 has more similarity to the Su27 than the Su30 family. it does the feature the canards because Rus moved away from that to a more advanced FCS.

GD IIRC the fcs was one factor but the big reason was the weight of bars compared to irbis. They put canards as a way to compensate for the heavy MKI nose.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 08 Mar 2013 14:05

Austin wrote:
ashi wrote:What you said is true but there is no sign this is the case now. Honestly, China spends $119B (which many people think it is under reported) and Russia spends $71B in military expenditures in 2012. How long do you think it will take China to exceed Russia in almost every area?
Money is not the only factor that makes a nation compete technologically , if that were to be the case then no one could have competed with the US in defence equipment since it out spends the top 10 players even today , Even Europe and Russian have competitive products like US and even out smart them in many cases even though their defence spending might be 1/3 of what US has been spending. ( China spending more than Europe and Russia since a decade still cant )

Its the intellectual and industrial capability of the nation that matters more important than money and the Russians have plenty and so do Europeans and they will continue to build Weapon System that can remain competitive with the best , irrespective if China manages to catch up or remain behind.

Money is not the only factor, but probably is the most important one. Combining with will and industrial capabilities, which China has demonstrated in the last few decades that how a country can rapidly industrialized from a agricultural society, things will happen. It has already been happening. You hear the cry from west media often already.

ashi · Post by **ashi** » 08 Mar 2013 14:10

Singha wrote:how much does sweden spend on defence? nothing compared to Cheen.
yet they still come up with products like the CV90, Archer, Gripen, FH77B05 ...

Sweden can do very well in some area and can buy technologies from west at will, but it doesn't have a full military industry as China does. Do they have SSK/SSN, ICBM etc? I don't think they have the financial and technology prowess for those.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2013 14:13

ashi wrote:Money is not the only factor, but probably is the most important one. Combining with will and industrial capabilities, which China has demonstrated in the last few decades that how a country can rapidly industrialized from a agricultural society, things will happen. It has already been happening. You hear the cry from west media often already.

Fine wake me up when you see China build companies like Boeing , Airbus , Sukhoi or even niche quality players like Embraer and the many well known ones in Civil and Defence with all the money it has , when it starts exporting Weapons to nations and the importing nations starts appreciating about its quality and reliability ( politics or no politics of weapons export )

China is no doubt econolically developing at a rate that probably remains unprecedented but at the same time it has its own fair share of problems to confront and even if world is not growing at the rate that China is , it is neither remaining static for China to catch up.

The Proof of the Pudding is in its eating and if that ever happens in my life time I would be the first to applaud China.

Don · Post by **Don** » 08 Mar 2013 14:26

Austin wrote:
ashi wrote:Money is not the only factor, but probably is the most important one. Combining with will and industrial capabilities, which China has demonstrated in the last few decades that how a country can rapidly industrialized from a agricultural society, things will happen. It has already been happening. You hear the cry from west media often already.
Fine wake me up when you see China build companies like Boeing , Airbus , Sukhoi or even niche quality players like Embraer and the many well known ones in Civil and Defence with all the money it has , when it starts exporting Weapons to nations and the importing nations starts appreciating about its quality and reliability ( politics or no politics of weapons export )

China is no doubt econolically developing at a rate that probably remains unprecedented but at the same time it has its own fair share of problems to confront and even if world is not growing at the rate that China is , it is neither remaining static for China to catch up.

The Proof of the Pudding is in its eating and if that ever happens in my life time I would be the first to applaud China.

Its only a question of time my friend.... Only a question of time......

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 08 Mar 2013 15:35

ashi wrote:
Singha wrote:how much does sweden spend on defence? nothing compared to Cheen.
yet they still come up with products like the CV90, Archer, Gripen, FH77B05 ...
Sweden can do very well in some area and can buy technologies from west at will, but it doesn't have a full military industry as China does. Do they have SSK/SSN, ICBM etc? I don't think they have the financial and technology prowess for those.

Yes, they have SSKs of their own design. No ICBMs, of course

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Mar 2013 15:54

What? China competing with Sweden now? Given up on USA then?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 08 Mar 2013 16:01

^^If china is so great, why did they need Russia to design their attack helicopter, something that even SDRE India did indigenously.

member_23455 · Post by **member_23455** » 08 Mar 2013 16:55

Austin wrote:
ashi wrote:Money is not the only factor, but probably is the most important one. Combining with will and industrial capabilities, which China has demonstrated in the last few decades that how a country can rapidly industrialized from a agricultural society, things will happen. It has already been happening. You hear the cry from west media often already.
Fine wake me up when you see China build companies like Boeing , Airbus , Sukhoi or even niche quality players like Embraer and the many well known ones in Civil and Defence with all the money it has , when it starts exporting Weapons to nations and the importing nations starts appreciating about its quality and reliability ( politics or no politics of weapons export )

China is no doubt econolically developing at a rate that probably remains unprecedented but at the same time it has its own fair share of problems to confront and even if world is not growing at the rate that China is , it is neither remaining static for China to catch up.

The Proof of the Pudding is in its eating and if that ever happens in my life time I would be the first to applaud China.

Ummm...when everybody in the region including Uncle Sam is pivoting themselves to face China's growing economic and military prowess this suggestion to be woken up is terribly reminiscent of 1962 or even 1999 - two conflicts where we got quite rudely woken up.

Rule no. 1 in building world class companies or powerful nations remains the same. Only the Paranoid Survive - which incidentally was the title of an ex-Intel CEO's biography when his company had 70% market share.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 08 Mar 2013 18:25

China has made some progress. The ROI has been bad.

The question I have is can China design and build the next gen Z-10? I very much doubt it.

This is not meant to be a knock on China, just a honest observation. China has bought what she could not do. My bet is that she still cannot do a lot of what she could not do - even with all the funds she has. And even with the help it has taken her a decade plus to fly a helo.

Besides, funds are very important, but unless there is the other supporting stuff around the funds AND they are mature funds will get wasted- lousy ROI.

More later.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 08 Mar 2013 18:45

Vikramaditya Delayed Again , Seriously India is becoming a laughing stock , and yet Russians wonder why they are losing orders to Americans ???

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 08 Mar 2013 20:51

^^
Karanji,
I don't understand the logic behind the first part of your observation. Shouldn't it be the Russians who become the laughing stock as they are unable to deliver a upgrade on an existing aircraft carrier. That too with so much experience in building aircraft carriers. and industry support they have. Why do you say that India is becoming the laughing stock?

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 08 Mar 2013 22:06

LoL China remains dependent on Russia for pretty much everything strategic in nature. The article was a complete joke. Maybe in planet Kolab SU-35 can stand up to Rafale but on earth it wouldn't last very long. I wonder what happened to the super duper flops like J-10/11 that china has to run for Su-35 again. The engine story is just nonsense they may as well simply buy 400 engines have 200 Joke-20/21 fighters flying if that was the issue. The quality of chinese weapons is such that even pakis will go for it finally as a last minute desperate measure after all attempts to buy second hand from US/EU have failed.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 08 Mar 2013 22:53

rgsrini wrote:^^
Karanji,
I don't understand the logic behind the first part of your observation. Shouldn't it be the Russians who become the laughing stock as they are unable to deliver a upgrade on an existing aircraft carrier. That too with so much experience in building aircraft carriers. and industry support they have. Why do you say that India is becoming the laughing stock?

Because India got suckered into an obvious rust-bucket in 2004 for promised delivery date of 2008 at 650 million dollars.
There were forum members (Keypublishing.com) who had clearly stated there was no way 2008 date was feasible.

Guess what ...45 Mig-29K, 2.2 Billion dollars and 5 YEARS past 2008, there is still no Aircraft carrier in sight.
Indian Navy experts were trounced by Internet Forum warriors!!

From what I remember, they never had the original documentation for the Admiral Gorshkov.
We bankrolled their shipyard facilities and helped them rebuild their aircraft carrier capabilities.

The same story repeats for Al-55.
Refurbished Tunguskas!!
Technology hold-backs for T-90.
FGFA is gonna be the same as PAFA
Brahmos was never bought for Russian armed forces.

Of course we are the bloody laughing-stock!!!

--Ashish

John · Post by **John** » 09 Mar 2013 00:32

Can we move this discussion to the appropriate thread.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2013 01:00

tsarkar wrote:
Philip wrote:“The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”
Nonsense. Russia is trying to scaremonger India. Russia annexed resource rich population sparse Siberia in 17th century from China, so there is more possibility of the arms being used against itself than resource poor population dense NE & N India. Which is why Russia gives low tech arms to China, and not for any love for India

India is specifically getting AESA in Rafale, which has more LO features than Su-35. Rafale is more aerodynamic and sub-system weights are lower than comparable Russian systems, so doesnt need a higher power engine.

Case in point -
Klimov RD-33 Series 3 turbofan weight 1.055 tons 49.4 kN static 81.4 kN afterburning
GE F404-GE-IN20 turbofan weight 1.072 tons 55.5 kN static 84 kN afterburning
GE F414 weight 1.109 tons 98 kN afterburning

Elta 2032 100 kg
Zhuk M 240 kg

+1

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2013 01:02

Philip wrote:Sino-Russian def. deals yet again?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 485335.ece
Vlad. Radyuhin veteran scribe on Russian news,has this report which if true would have serious consequences for India.A few weeks ago I posted news of Russian potential sales of Amur subs to China.U-35 sales are also on the anvil.While India has slept over some def. deals,Russia has been under pressure from China for some time for newer more lethal products ,with which to deal with the US.Obviously,such modern weaponry will have consequences for India.

Sir jee,

So it is India's mistake now that Russia is ready to supply its cutting edge stuff to China?

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 09 Mar 2013 02:12

“The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

“The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”

.... Isn't there a little something called the conflict of interest?
I am surprised that I haven't seen stupid figures being thrown about by the Russians...
Su-35 is 1.5 times more effective than Rafale, 3 times more lethal, 5 times more intelligent, 7 times more shiny ... blah blah blah ...

--Ashish

member_23370 · Post by **member_23370** » 09 Mar 2013 02:34

The Su-35 is no match for Rafale. IAF and IN both know this very well. Instead of looking at 35 IAF should be evaluateing the Super 30 upgrade for MKI.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Mar 2013 02:41

Indranil.my ref. is for subs.The BMos Amur offer has been on the table for aeons.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Mar 2013 02:50

Philip wrote:Indranil.my ref. is for subs.The BMos Amur offer has been on the table for aeons.

Philip ji, I am completely with you about lethargy of our babus.

But at the same time India should consider all it's options before buying. China doesn't have the options. This is an advantage that we have over China. Why shouldn't we exploit it? Especially when there is no imminent danger of a Indo-Chinese war in the next decade.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Mar 2013 03:03

indranilroy wrote:
Philip wrote:Sino-Russian def. deals yet again?
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 485335.ece
Vlad. Radyuhin veteran scribe on Russian news,has this report which if true would have serious consequences for India.A few weeks ago I posted news of Russian potential sales of Amur subs to China.U-35 sales are also on the anvil.While India has slept over some def. deals,Russia has been under pressure from China for some time for newer more lethal products ,with which to deal with the US.Obviously,such modern weaponry will have consequences for India.
Sir jee,

So it is India's mistake now that Russia is ready to supply its cutting edge stuff to China?

This is just business and nations have interests. Having said that ever since Putin has come back the problems for India have multiplied - good for Russia, in this case good for China and not good for India.

However, I am glad he is supplying the Su-35 to China. I have soured over the Rafale deal. It is not worth more than $10 billion. I think India should scrap both the M2K upgrades and the MMRCA efforts and pump that into the FGFA (kill that PMF), make the AMCA bigger and make it happen.

But, I like this Russian tilt towards China.

Now someone needs to wake up MMS/GoI - the other half of the problem.

Do not expect Russia to help India here on out. Their national interests have moved on.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Mar 2013 03:06

indranilroy wrote:
Philip wrote:Indranil.my ref. is for subs.The BMos Amur offer has been on the table for aeons.
Philip ji, I am completely with you about lethargy of our babus.

But at the same time India should consider all it's options before buying. China doesn't have the options. This is an advantage that we have over China Why shouldn't we exploit it. Especially when there is not imminent danger of a Indo-Chinese war in the next decade?

You will kill Philip!!!! He cannot survive such logic. You can apply that logic, in the Philip context, ONLY to non-Russian actors.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 09 Mar 2013 03:23

Mishraji,
Thanks for confirming that it is just BRF passtime of bleating about how wrong India and Indians are all the time. Let us not bring T-90 and Brahmos (don't understand how India's need will get negated by the non-induction of it in the Russia) into Naval thread and derail it.

The laughing stock, IMO, is Russia. In spite of all its experience and capabilities, it is fumbling around to complete a seemingly simple reconstruction and a paint job.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 09 Mar 2013 03:42

rgsrini wrote:Mishraji,
Thanks for confirming that it is just BRF passtime of bleating about how wrong India and Indians are all the time. Let us not bring T-90 and Brahmos (don't understand how India's need will get negated by the non-induction of it in the Russia) into Naval thread and derail it.

The laughing stock, IMO, is Russia. In spite of all its experience and capabilities, it is fumbling around to complete a seemingly simple reconstruction and a paint job.

That bolded part is the part where we went wrong. It was never that. Entire boilers being replaced. Wiring being replaced.
New navigation systems. Radars. New Air wing.
That is precisely what the Keypublishing forum guys pointed out in 2004.

I had full faith at that time that we would get it in service by 2008.
Why? Because the Indian Navy said so and the Russians said so.
Well, I was wrong.

Induction of brahmos into Russian navy would have led to higher production and hence lower unit-costs of the weapon.
Not to mention, the Russians pushed for Yakhont instead of Brahmos when selling to Vietnam.

However the idea of the post was not to prove that we are wrong.
That is a separate issue that can be dealt with.
The idea was to prove the repeated lack of adherence to deals and agreements by the Russians and our naivety in dealing with them.

You can draw any conclusions you like.
But the way I see it, Russia of today is not the Soviet Union of bygone years.
I don't expect any deal with them to be completed without problems and with a sense of fair play.

--Ashish

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Mar 2013 00:21

Misraji = Katareji

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 10 Mar 2013 00:45

Austin wrote:The recent buy from Russia by China is is accelerated by US decision to move 60 % of its Naval fleet towards the Pacific theater a clear indication by US its aimed at containing China a move Beijing has opposed. Russia too is unhappy with the move and is more than willing to help China bolster its military might.

Why would Russia be unhappy about US moving assets to pacific theater? US is moving its asset that were deployed against Russian threats to EU, from Atlantic ocean to Pacific ocean against China in support of Japs/Australia/ASEAN?

This should make them happy!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Mar 2013 01:23

Russia is happy because she can make money, knowing very well china cannot copy for nuts. Would like to see if Russia will allow local production.

Russia will first need to replace her ancient material inside the nation before she ventures outside.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2013 05:28

Logic.China's Achil-Lees heel. (He!he!) Engine tech.Same devil that bedevils India.Though Lee has made far more progress than India,producing a number of engines at home,a cutting edge engine at least that of current gen. is required for its stealth jokers.Hence the PRC's need for the SU-35 and its engine.Acknowledged that a superior variant of its Flanker clones is a requirement,Just as the Russians are using the SU-35 as an interim fighter for its 5th-gen tech,so too does the PRC want to follow the beaten track.Its major breakthroughs have come because of its unrelenting cyber-espionage campaign conducted on a global scale,where it is stealing everything that can be stolen,including in the past,allegedly the designs of N-weapons from the US.

There was a very interesting article I picked up at AE-13,Russian,which had a piece about the vulnerability of the US from Iranian sub launched missiles.The extended operational duration of an Iranian Kilo recently,which would make it poss. for the Kilo to each the US coast,fire a N-tipped missile/s and return.A table was also made of existing sub-launched missiles,including our own K-15.Here is a worry for India,via a transfer to our noisy neighbour next door,The Qing class Strirling engine AIP electric propulsion sub,with 3 CJ-10 supersonic cruise missiles located in the sail.Range,1500km.Some sources say that the same can accommodate the med. ranged DF-21Ds also.What accompanied the piece was a tech. diagram showing a navalised tactical ballistic missile identical in size to a Yakhont/Brahmos missile.This can be interpreted as a land-attack N-weapon.

This brings me back again to my clarion call for aeons for Brahmos armed AIP subs which can complement at lower cost our SSBNs of the ATV/Arihant class.Just as Iranian Kilos can make offensive patrols off the US coast,so too can our conventional sub fleet make patrols in the Indo-China Sea armed with tactical N-tipped missiles,aimed at a range of PRC mil. establishments all along its coast,esp at Hainan.There is an Amur 950 type (smaller than the 1650 offered to India) which from the cut-away drg.can carry 10 sub-launched missiles (slight hump abaft the sail),not known what type though but appears to be Yakhont.B'Mos size.One would not like that type to get into PLAN service.

PS: For doubting Thomases,some alleged stats of how well our Flankers fared in exercises with their western counterparts.
2004 exercises in Alaska.Score 75% wins against F-15C/Ds.2005 exercises with Singapore Air Force's F-16Cs at Gwalior.Against USAF F-15s 8 out of 10 wins,10 out of 10 against the SAF F-16s.2005 against French Mirage opposition,who were surprised at the IAF's professionalism,ability to adapt to NATO systems,Flanker's manoeuverability despite its size.2006/7 performed very well against Typhoons.

In 2008, a secret OZ report had the results of simulated battles between the US's JSF,F-35.The report said that the Russian made planes tore apart their US rivals like Toozik-the-Dog tore a rubber hot water bottle,or
"beat them like baby seals".Malaysian intelligence somehow obtained this report with the comparative data between the SU-30MK and US aircraft and that resulted in Malaysia buying SU-30MKMs.

At Red Flag 2008,two US KC-135s were secretly tracking the IAF's team across the Atlantic hoping to get the codes and frequencies of our radars.Red Flag involved French Rafales,SOKO F-15Ks,US F-15s and F-16s;64 aircraft from various countries. The IAF aircraft were asked to be the aggressors.Our unexpected victories was a cold shower to many of the US.In the aftermath of the exercise,US Gen. Hal Homburg admitted the foll: "The air forces of countries operating Russian made SU-30Mk fighters have a certain advantage and might pose a threat to US air dominance.We are not as far ahead of the rest of the world as we would like to think".

Now for the improvement of the Bars radar giving it par status with AESAs.A final variant has been decided upon after extensive tests by our side,a far greater regime than usual,which will enter production by April.The 1st stage involves,greater range,higher resolution,enhancing the info. and tactical capabilities of A-2-A and A-2-S modes,better ECM capability,etc.An AESA radar is on the PAK-FA.5 made,6th underway.tests so far have validated the design.There is a possibility that our upgraded "Super Sukhois" might feature this radar planned to be installed on SU-35s too.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 10 Mar 2013 05:44

Either you or the russians are worth the entertainment

for the Kilo to each the US coast,fire a N-tipped missile/s and return

in the mindboggling scenario where this happens what will the Kilo return to????

Malaysian intelligence somehow obtained this report with the comparative data between the SU-30MK and US aircraft and that resulted in Malaysia buying SU-30MKMs.

wow

so I wonder what would be Singapore's strategy

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Mar 2013 06:06

I do not know about Iranian capabilities, nor too much about Su-XXMks vs. US air crafts, but I do KNOW about Israeli jets being able to ramrod through Russian designed defenses and actually bomb a nuke facility in a country called Syria. I am sure these radars, that the Israelis defeated, had real LONG range (just like the SU-35s, that China is buying, will have as compared to the Indian radars).

And, of course, the bed time stories about the possibilities of doing the same to Iranian facilities.

These memos must not have reached the good American General ............... I assume.

BTW, I have not kept up with AESA radars around the world, but have we been able to figure out what gens AESAs the Russians/French/etc have? I am not looking for their range - I can find that out. Nor for how many boogies they can categorize, track, etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Mar 2013 06:18

Rus are working on their first gen of fighter aesa radar for pakfa. They do not have L band aesa for their shmel platform either. So they have a ways to go vs khan who are deep into their 3rd gen aesa deployment.

Btw an american scientist who worked in singapore some institute was found hanging from a hook in his bathroom ..he had expressed some deep reservations that a deal between his workplace and a chinese co would result in galium nitride semicon tech being transferred along with a bunch of specialized machines for the same imported from the us into singapore. So i am sure the cheen are running a bigtime tech theft operation using intermediate hope like singapore which being munnas are allowed to import anything..whatever be the specifics of this case.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 10 Mar 2013 06:44

I have no doubt that the Chinese are running major ops for any tech - look at the J-20/31. Enough said.

Nor is there a question about the Russians have or do not have great tech to sell.

The points are:

1) That entities like the Israelis have consistently - and nearly at will - been able to defeat Russian (among other) technologies. That is one nation that has to be able to do that just to survive. And,
2) The gas bag secret reports from Australia (which have been churning out reports for eons and have been offered the Su series by the Russians) and these great get together all these AFs have, spin more yarn, try and get all sorts of fictitious codes, radar signatures. Who the hell are all these guys crapping?

And, we take all these circus acts seriously?

Malaysia buys a plane based on some Australian research?

I mean, read such reports by all means - they are data points to some extent. But please do not make them the corner stone of your strategic thinking. Heck when they go to war everything changes. Even the simple FF marking on a tank changes. In NCC, in "camp", our code words changed every night!!!!

China may hit some, but they better be prepared to get hit too. 200 Su-35s will make a diff, but heck the other guy is not sleeping either.

And, seriously, if the Russian mal was THAT great we would never had a "MKI" would we? And, India would not have insisted on her own FGFA, would she? Now, IF China could smuggle 200 Su-35s and not a single person was aware of it, then I agree it would make a diff, a huge diff. Saying the radar on a Su-35 would see an Indian plane way before is childish. Neither AF would send one plane at a time. Nor does India rely on a single means of detecting such air crafts - specially now that India KNOWS they are there.

The very fact that we ALL know that the Russian subs are so silent HAS to trigger counter technologies. Such efforts should have started long back. Let the Chinese buy the Amurs. Good for them - better for Russia.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 10 Mar 2013 07:53

NR,Who says anything about these reports being the "cornerstone of strategic thinking?" They offer some insights .Malaysia allegedly bought Flankers after obtaining US comparative data produced by Boeing at its St.Louis facility.A war game was conducted at Hickam where RAAF officers were invited in 2008.The Malaysians allegedly obtained the intel somehow.Why don't you ruminate upon the US general's comments? After all it speaks a lot about our MKIs.Fundamentally a Russian aircraft.

Please,don't misinterpret my posts.Where have I said that a PLAAF SU-35 would see an Indian plane way before? I have actually given details about planned radar upgrades for our MKIs making them more capable.The point is that the PRC has massively increased its defence budget,its armed forces are flush with cash and are looking for cutting edge hardware.The country most likely that will sell it something-perhaps not in its most lethal avatar is Russia.Two factors come into play here.Even if the avatar is inferior to what we obtain/further develop with Russia,the numbers that the PRC can buy/churn out constitutes a distinct and growing threat.Our production rate of aircraft in particular,is woefully inferior to what the PRC produces.Large transfers to Pak take place regularly.Any narrowing of the qualitative gap between us and the Sino-Pak axis increases our vulnerability and the threat of mischief in the form of conflict from our two neighbours .

Secondly,if you've read the history of WW2 sub operations you will not sneer at the capability of any conventional sub today.True, as one wit has hilariously put it,"what would the Iranian Kilo return to?",but one must recollect US thinking,and its interpretation of the Chinese threat,as to how many cities on its eastern seaboard would the US risk losing to a N-attack if it interfered with a PRC "take-away" of Taiwan? The west has been demonising Iran for ages saying that once it possesses a N-device it will vaporise Israel,etc. Wouldn't it be tempting ,by the same logic,to imagine that if it had the capability,a future or current anti-US leader or mullah would savour and consider the idea of exterminating the HQ of the "Great Satan"? After all ,what would he worry about if he was exterminated,as he would get his "72s"!

As it is the PLAN have a huge advantage in numbers and are progressively developing new designs.Give the PRC credit for developing so many sub types on their own.How many subs have we developed other than the heavily Russian assisted ATV? If it's conventional subs,it's zero.Pak has made no bones about wanting to match India in the triad stakes.Any acquisition by China of a better Russian conventional AIP sub that can fire sub-launched missiles would be a probable sale to Pak later on after it has been cloned.Sometime ago I proposed a sub acquisition plan of western/eastern types,whereby it would be almost impossible for Pak/China to obtain the same cutting edge sub-tech,which would give us a clear advantage.The window of opportunity is fast closing.

PS:Here are some quotes which if true,should make us consider reopening MIG-21 production!

The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn, the pilot said.“So we start to pull in on him, and then all of a sudden you start to see the [Su-30’s aft-] end kick down and he starts doing vectored thrust,” the pilot says.

“But now he starts falling out of the sky. He’s falling out of the sky so fast that you don’t even have to go up,” the pilot adds. “You just have to pull back on the stick a little bit, pull the throttle, go to guns and come in and drill his brains out.” Even so, the professionalism and skill of the IAF pilots at Red Flag gained the respect of the USAF pilots.

However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities.“They never really came to any merges,” the pilot explains.

“What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that’s really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the ‘trons in the air.”

The pilot also says the IAF’s MiG-21 Bison aircraft, modified with Israeli radar, active radar missiles and electronic jammers, are nearly “invisible” to the F-15 and F-16’s current mechanically-scanned arrays, allowing the Indian pilots to sneak past the USAF radar screen and engage the F-15s and F-16s in dogfights.

“The MiG-21 had the ability to get in the scissors with you at 110kts at 60 degrees nose high and go from 10,000 to 20,000 feet,” he said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2013 09:29

Katare wrote:Why would Russia be unhappy about US moving assets to pacific theater? US is moving its asset that were deployed against Russian threats to EU, from Atlantic ocean to Pacific ocean against China in support of Japs/Australia/ASEAN?

This should make them happy!!

Oh is it make them really happy , Let me revel you a little secret Russian Navy are stationed at Pacific and any force tilting by US will affect their interest as that of China. What if Russia or China move part of their fleet towards US East or West coast will that make US happy about it ?

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 10 Mar 2013 10:54

Katare wrote:Misraji = Katareji

Honored, Sirjee....

--Ashish

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Mar 2013 17:40

Russia to hand over INS Vikramaditya to India in November

The Vikramaditya aircraft carrier is to be handed over to the Indian Navy in November, 2013, head of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation, Alexander Fomin, said yesterday.

"The ship is to be put in a dock in April, go on sea trials in June and July and be officially handed over some time in November," he said.

The Vikramaditya was originally built as the Soviet Project 1143.4 class aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov.

The Vikramaditya, which is already years past its original 2008 delivery date, was supposed to have been handed over on December 4, 2012, but sea trials in September revealed the ship's boilers were not fully functional.

The Vikramaditya then returned to the shipyard to fix the problems that were detected during the sea trials.

The ship demonstrated excellent seaworthiness, speed of 27.9 knots (about 52 kilometres per hour) and manoeuvrability during the three-month sea trials.

The ship sailed for more than 12,000 miles, with 517 flights performed from its deck by aircraft and helicopters.

Russia's Northern Fleet aviation was involved in the sea trials, aircraft and helicopters flew around and over the ship in order to check its radar, air defence, communication and control systems.